Stupid Shit in Kyiv

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2938829]Sure.

I predicted the Banderite counter offensive[/QUOTE]"Banderite" is a derogatory word used by Putin propaganda machine to describe everyone in Ukraine who resists Russia's aggression. Of course, Bandera himself was assassinated by the KGB over 60 years ago, so I find it puzzling that an American engineer (that's who you're claiming to be, right?) even knows this word, let alone uses it in the same vein it's used by Russia -- to blacken the whole nation of Ukraine [B]exclusively for Russia's domestic propaganda consumers[/B].

[QUOTE=Xpartan;2938945]"Banderite" is a derogatory word used by Putin propaganda machine to describe everyone in Ukraine who resists Russia's aggression. Of course, Bandera himself was assassinated by the KGB over 60 years ago, so I find it puzzling that an American engineer (that's who you're claiming to be, right?) even knows this word, let alone uses it in the same vein it's used by Russia -- to blacken the whole nation of Ukraine [B]exclusively for Russia's domestic propaganda consumers[/B].[/QUOTE]Just keep your eye out for the links to his sources. If he never posts them then that tells you everything you need to know.

[QUOTE=ReinerOtto;2938858]The Chinese can capture even more land in that area, using Putlers words: Becausue historically Chinese.[/QUOTE]Mur.

By the same logic Putin used when he schooled Tucker Carlson on Russian history, the whole Amur Oblast and Primorsky Krai including Sakhalin belong to China, not Russia. History is a biatch.

[B]Tucker Carlson interview: Fact-checking Putin's 'nonsense' history[/B]

[URL]https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-68255302[/URL]

[QUOTE=Paulie97;2938866]So you don't have any proof of any fulfilled prophecies. Or if you do, then post them here.[/QUOTE]I already said I have only been active on this part of the forum for a few months. I have been closely following the war since Feb 2022. I have discussed this with friends and folks on other forums. Sorry, you don't have to believe me. But you can make a note of my current predictions, and we will see a year or 2 from now if I was right or wrong.

[QUOTE=Paulie97;2938875]When you say "they," I assume you are talking about the Ukrainian army. [/QUOTE]Yeah no shit.

[QUOTE=Paulie97;2938875]Link us to the sources where Ukrainian officials have revealed their objectives, and where the same have desperately changed their story. Even if available it could be a ruse.[/QUOTE]Are you fucking serious? I'm just going by what Zelensky and his team have been saying on the mainstream media. They have listed various objectives but didn't list the REAL OBJECTIVE because they failed to achieve it (capturing the KNPP). The objectives shared by the Kiev regime have been as I have already listed previously. If you have been following the news, you won't doubt me.

[QUOTE=Paulie97;2938875]
According to some sources the Ukrainians have blown up two bridges in the Kursk region, heavily damaged an airport and fuel depot, while there's some video evidence. These aren't official sources. [/QUOTE]They have indeed blown up bridges and bragged about it. They have also taken soldiers and civilians as captives. I'm guessing they will use the innocent civilians as hostages and the west will condone it.

[QUOTE=Paulie97;2938875]Tell us more about the "slowly collapsing positions in Donetsk and Bandera," with links to your source material.[/QUOTE]Do you not follow the news? Go to the BBC or some other pathetic mainstream media website and you will see for yourself. The real battle is on going in Donetsk. Check what is going on in Pokrovks and Toretsk and get back to me. You will see what happens once these 2 towns fall.

[QUOTE=Paulie97;2938875] Yours is an easy game to play. You come pontificating day after day while making predictions, but I've never seen any links, no source materials. There's no evidence of any fulfilled predictions while the outcome of the war, and perhaps the fate of Putin is yet to be determined. Where are you getting your information? All we see so far is an apparent fellow traveler for fun with a lot of unsubstantiated claims and predictions. Source citations are academics 101. Show us where you are getting your information. If you refuse, then it's fair to assume that you are embarrassed by it.[/QUOTE]I get my information from various sources. The western mainstream media is all propaganda and lies and has been weaponized. You can get a better understanding from X, youtube and other independent news outlets and reporters. I suggest you check them.

[QUOTE=Paulie97;2938882]RUSSIA says the power plant was the Ukrainian objective, thus it's clear where Blood Red is getting his information. Afterall, he asserts that Alexi Navalny died of natural causes. Tiny has yet to tell us what he thinks about that, but completely dodged the question. But then we get this strident, exaggerated language, "constantly changing the reason" for the incursion, though a buffer zone, a move to draw troops away from Donetsk, plus gather prisoners are none mutually exclusive. Of course he believes and predicts it will all amount to failure, though some sources report substantial prisoner hauls and there's photos, while reportedly a third bridge near Kursk was just destroyed.

But Moscow has a very long history of getting the real story out to the world, so we should just believe them, right? Wink Guys skip the middle men. You don't need BR and Tiny. It's all in Google. Just comes here for the predictions, as the propaganda sources often don't include these.

P.S. I still want to see your links. You've never posted a single one best I've seen.[/QUOTE]Anyone with any common sense would tell you that the only place or significance in Kursk is the KNPP. Ukraine could have used that as a bargaining chip to get the ZNPP controlled by Russia back.

The Bandera incursion into Kursk has failed and it will achieve nothing. On the contrary, it is already having a negative impact on Donetsk as the Russians are advancing faster now than before. Zelensky's terrorist PR stunt has failed.

[QUOTE=Xpartan;2938945]"Banderite" is a derogatory word used by Putin propaganda machine to describe everyone in Ukraine who resists Russia's aggression. Of course, Bandera himself was assassinated by the KGB over 60 years ago, so I find it puzzling that an American engineer (that's who you're claiming to be, right?) even knows this word, let alone uses it in the same vein it's used by Russia -- to blacken the whole nation of Ukraine [B]exclusively for Russia's domestic propaganda consumers[/B].[/QUOTE]What are your thoughts on Stepan Bandera?

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2939216]What are your thoughts on Stepan Bandera?[/QUOTE]'Answering' a question with a question is an old, venerable trick, and I'll be happy to share my 2 cents. First, however, I'd like to understand why you're so compelled to call the contemporary nation of Ukraine Banderites. It seems like an odd choice for an American like yourself (right? Given that the man himself was murdered over 60 years ago. What is the [B]non-propagandist value[/B] of painting the entire people of Ukraine as supporters of a man who died such a long time ago?

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2939215]A...The Bandera incursion into Kursk has failed and it will achieve nothing...[/QUOTE]I suggest you try to envision Russian defeat.

[QUOTE=Paulie97;2938852]There's plenty of content from my last several posts to you to reply to here, where everything is on topic, that you completely skipped over. Though we already have your mindset memorized by heart by now, give the posts a go, point by point. One is obvious parody. Or, continue to leave them alone, or cherry pick and attack your caricatures, shift to whataboutisms / false equivocations and "deep state" conspiracy theories, or type out another essay of Kremlin propaganda. I trust most here will notice when you fail to take on the content. If not then it doesn't matter, as the war isn't going to be settled in this monger microcosm.

P.S. Do you really think it scores you some credibility when you claim you aren't voting for Trump? LOL I suppose anything that helps you avoid defending the many dumb statements you've made is helpful.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Paulie97;2938842]But lacked the intestinal fortitude to reply to my last several posts on the "Stupid Shit in Kyiv" thread where everything is on topic, where your highly repetitive "deep state" conspiracy theories, various false equivocations / whataboutisms related to past US wars and Kremlin propaganda have received rebuttals from me and others ad nauseum. The one where you said that Russia isn't trying to kill civilians, where you brown nose a guy who asserts that Alexi Navalny died of natural causes, where you express confidence that Putin would honor a peace accord, etc. Putin is a war criminal, coward at heart with zero honor, that's sore about the lose of the Soviet Empire. He started a war. Ukraine wants to fight back, and NATO has responded, Occam's Razor. You're welcome to go back to the Ukraine forum and respond to the many posts I made to you earlier this month that you skipped over. Do it point by point. That might help you make another go at swearing off this thread. You might even succeed this time, or at least divert your addiction. You never know.

So other than the post to me, how many more have followed since swearing off this thread? I counted four, some pretty lengthy. Sounds like you're really struggling, and you have my sympathy. Wink.

P.S.

Ike isn't my fav president, but I do think his economic achievements cut against the idea of Tooms, that Repubs always bring economic disasters, going back to Lincoln. That's the context, thus a little honesty occasionally will go a long way if you're interested in at least some pretense of credibility.[/QUOTE]Well buckaroo, I'm just confused. You said people like me who haven't been to Ukraine can't post in this thread. Xpartan said I can. But he said if I want to post something about Israel or the USA to compare to Russia, I have to do it in the Israel or American Politics threads. So that's what I did. You gentlemen need to put your heads together and decide what you want.

With one exception, I can't think of anything significant about Ukraine you've written recently that I haven't addressed recently, by replying to you or more often to Xpartan and others. But true, I haven't really replied to your posts about my honesty, sanity and time management skills. The problem is that I just don't know where to put them and keep you and Xpartan both happy. Maybe somebody needs to start a new thread on Hooker Board Addiction. Anyway, you don't have to look back to 2022, as you often advise us to do, to see what I've said that disagrees with what you've said.

The exception is Blood Red's statement that Putin didn't kill Navalny. You seem to really want me to say something about that. Well, instead why don't you post some links supporting whatever it is you believe. You've criticized Blood Red more than once for not doing that. The only links I remember you posting were about logical fallacies and psychological conditions you think your debating partners here suffer from.

In the real world, populated by politicians and the like, I don't believe it makes sense for either side to demonize the other. This will never come to an end as long as the people controlling western countries believe Putin is Hitler, which he's not. However, as you correctly say, we're just a bunch of nimrods on a hooker board. Carry on Paulie.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2939214]Yeah no shit.[/QUOTE]Yep not shit. Still no links, only hostility and pontificating. I rest my case.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2939369]You said people like me who haven't been to Ukraine can't post in this thread. [/QUOTE]Then quote my words. If I said anything like that (probably didn't) then it was tongue in check, mockery. Everyone but you knows these are free for all threads.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2939369]Well, instead why don't you post some links supporting whatever it is you believe. You've criticized Blood Red more than once for not doing that.[/QUOTE]I've posted loads of links here, with war analysis, and especially academic articles debunking Little Vlad's historical mythologies. Jmsuttr was the best debater on this topic and he posted many, but wised up and moved on. All BR does it arrogantly pontificate without any hint of his sources other than to call them "various. " We all know what they are. The first step for you would be to get your nose out of his asshole so you can think more clearly.

As I told Drama Queen, the world isn't safe while tyrants can rattle the nuclear saber and get whatever they want. Russia is short on allies and China is set against nuclear escalation. Dishonorable tyrants with ambitions aren't going to honor peace accords. They'll regroup and strike again. The West has done a lot, but needs to do more and remove some restrictions. I'd love a world without killing and where everyone gets along, but that isn't the world we live in, never has been.

I'll add that a lot of Central and Eastern Europe has expanded into NATO and the EU, by their own requests, because they love democratic values and reject the oppressive, restrictive, and grossly dishonest world that is Russia. My country has alliances, friends, and I want us to stay the course.

Lastly I don't think you're a bad guy at heart, based on much that I've read in the other forum, just deceived, while I hope you are able to move beyond these circular discussions and concentrate on career, family, and Latin American vacations.

[QUOTE=Paulie97;2939401]Then quote my words. If I said anything like that (probably didn't) then it was tongue in check, mockery. Everyone but you knows these are free for all threads.[/QUOTE]OK, I don't actually remember you saying people who haven't visited Ukraine can't post here. But I'm sure you've said or implied they shouldn't. I believe you were onto esteemed board member DramaFree about that, and you posted this about me (bold text).

[QUOTE=Paulie97;2834463]That's what he's been doing daily for many months now on the American Politics thread in the ISG "Opinions" forum while calling himself a centrist. He's been debunked from here to Sunday then recently came to this thread to restart [b]even though he's never been to Ukraine. [/b]Likely he discovered this discussion by searching the post histories of people he's been going back in forth with on the other thread.

For example he has ignored all that facts that clearly debunk the notion that Russia was given an oral promise regarding no NATO expansion into Eastern Europe. It's plainly false, but even if true only a complete fool wouldn't insist on getting something so important in writing.

[URL]https://hls.harvard.edu/today/there-was-no-promise-not-to-enlarge-nato/[/URL]

[URL]https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2022/feb/28/candace-owens/fact-checking-claims-nato-us-broke-agreement-again/[/URL]

[URL]https://theconversation.com/ukraine-the-history-behind-russias-claim-that-nato-promised-not-to-expand-to-the-east-177085[/URL]

So what can you do with someone who digs in online, ignores all corrections and keeps repeating the same fallacious arguments over and over? Ultimately all you can do is ignore them.

[URL]https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_nauseam[/URL][/QUOTE]BTW, If you'd take the time to read the National Security Archives link, including the summaries of the documents, that I've posted at least a couple of times, you'd realize the NATO expansion issue isn't as clear cut as you'd think. For that matter, if you read your Politifact link carefully you'd realize that.

[URL]https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2017-12-12/nato-expansion-what-gorbachev-heard-western-leaders-early[/URL]

[QUOTE=Paulie97;2939401]I've posted loads of links here, with war analysis, and especially academic articles debunking Little Vlad's historical mythologies. Jmsuttr was the best debater on this topic and he posted many, but wised up and moved on. All BR does it arrogantly pontificate without any hint of his sources other than to call them "various. " We all know what they are. The first step for you would be to get your nose out of his asshole so you can think more clearly.

As I told Drama Queen, the world isn't safe while tyrants can rattle the nuclear saber and get whatever they want. Russia is short on allies and China is set against nuclear escalation. Dishonorable tyrants with ambitions aren't going to honor peace accords. They'll regroup and strike again. The West has done a lot, but needs to do more and remove some restrictions. I'd love a world without killing and where everyone gets along, but that isn't the world we live in, never has been.

I'll add that a lot of Central and Eastern Europe has expanded into NATO and the EU, by their own requests, because they love democratic values and reject the oppressive, restrictive, and grossly dishonest world that is Russia. My country has alliances, friends, and I want us to stay the course.

Lastly I don't think you're a bad guy at heart, based on much that I've read in the other forum, just deceived, while I hope you are able to move beyond these circular discussions and concentrate on career, family, and Latin American vacations.[/QUOTE]And what can I say. You favor the neoconservatives and I'm a pacifist. I've spent time in Russia after February, 2022, and have friends and acquaintances who currently or formerly lived full time in Russia, who provide a different slant from yours and the USA's MSM.

I did take the last part of your post to heart. Circular arguments with EihTooms are not productive, and I stopped myself from getting into another one today. Now something for you. You can learn a lot from people who have different backgrounds and a different outlook than you. Don't dismiss them out of hand, and when you argue try to be respectful, even when you think they're full of shit.

Well. LOL. ? Finally remember imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2939551]. I believe you were onto esteemed board member DramaFree about that...[/QUOTE]That guy is not esteemed anywhere, least of which in the Ukraine forums.

Who you admire, says a lot.

[QUOTE=Xpartan;2939308]'Answering' a question with a question is an old, venerable trick, and I'll be happy to share my 2 cents. First, however, I'd like to understand why you're so compelled to call the contemporary nation of Ukraine Banderites. It seems like an odd choice for an American like yourself (right? Given that the man himself was murdered over 60 years ago. What is the [B]non-propagandist value[/B] of painting the entire people of Ukraine as supporters of a man who died such a long time ago?[/QUOTE]Just to be clear, when I said Banderite, I am talking about the Kiev regime which is full of neo Nazi and the scum criminal Azov Nazis that infest the AFU. I have nothing but the utmost respect and compassion and empathy for ORDINARY Ukrainians caught in this needless savage proxy war that NATO provoked. I hope it's clear now. Now, what are your thoughts on Stepan Bandera?

[QUOTE=Paulie97;2939395]Yep not shit. Still no links, only hostility and pontificating. I rest my case.[/QUOTE]I addressed all your points, and you couldn't return in kind.

[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2939315]I suggest you try to envision Russian defeat.[/QUOTE]You can keep dreaming. Ukraine is slowly but surely being defeated in Donetsk and all along the contact line. But you can focus on the PR stunt in Kursk. Give it a little time, see how that ends for the Bandera SCUM that went into Kursk and is terrorizing the innocent Russian civilians there and taking them hostage. But you condone that kind of behavior, I'm sure.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2939610] terrorizing the innocent Russian civilians there and taking them hostage. But you condone that kind of behavior, I'm sure.[/QUOTE]Why not? They are available then for exchange against forced deportations of Ukrainian children from regions, the Russians occupied:

The United Nations has stated that these deportations constitute war crimes. The International Criminal Court (ICC) has issued arrest warrants for President of Russia Vladimir Putin (a ka Putler) (who has explicitly supported the forced adoptions, including by enacting legislation to facilitate them) and Children's Rights Commissioner Maria Lvova-Belova for their alleged involvement.

BTW: Did you object against these kidnappings of Ukrainian children? Or is this according your companies regulations?

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2939610]You can keep dreaming. Ukraine is slowly but surely being defeated in Donetsk and all along the contact line. But you can focus on the PR stunt in Kursk. Give it a little time, see how that ends for the Bandera SCUM that went into Kursk and is terrorizing the innocent Russian civilians there and taking them hostage. But you condone that kind of behavior, I'm sure.[/QUOTE]1) Where are the valiant Russian partisans in Kursk battling the Ukranian aggressors?

2) "How did you go bankrupt?" Two ways. Gradually, then suddenly. ".

― Ernest Hemingway, The Sun Also Rises.

Who would have predicted the end of the Romanovs 1917 or the end of the USSR in 1991? I'm simply saying, that for your own well being and mental health, you should try to imagine the end of Putin.

[QUOTE=VinDici;2939607]That guy is not esteemed anywhere, least of which in the Ukraine forums.

Who you admire, says a lot.[/QUOTE]You're an esteemed board member too VinDici. Perhaps a little deluded about how you believe this war will end, with Ukraine reclaiming its pre-2014 borders. But esteemed and a board member none the less. DramaFree has made some good contributions to the Mexico and sugar baby threads. If I weren't already tied down to a gold digger, I'd probably try to follow in his footsteps in el Distrito Federal. And I may actually do that someday.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2939608]Just to be clear, when I said Banderite, I am talking about the Kiev regime which is full of neo Nazi and the scum criminal Azov Nazis that infest the AFU. I have nothing but the utmost respect and compassion and empathy for ORDINARY Ukrainians caught in this needless savage proxy war that NATO provoked. I hope it's clear now. Now, what are your thoughts on Stepan Bandera?[/QUOTE]1. Who in the Kyiv regime is a neo-Nazi? You're able to back up your allegations, right? Please provide specific names.

2. And? What SPECIFIC people or groups of people do you call "Banderite"? Is it only Azov brigade or some other units as well? You are aware that there are only 1,500 people in the Azov Brigade, aren't you?

3. Does your dislike of neo-Nazis extend to numerous Russian neo-Nazis fighting against Ukraine?

4. "I have nothing but the utmost respect and compassion and empathy for ORDINARY Ukrainians" Stop! It's ORDINARY Ukrainians who are beating the living hell out of your glorious army. Your hypocrisy is even more disgusting than your propaganda.

5. I don't like Stepan Bandera. He was a fascist, terrorist and rabid anti-Semite, and he envisioned Ukraine as a fascist, dictatorial country. That said, he was capable of defying Hitler and he went to prison for his conviction. He, unlike your current leaders, had courage, determination, and faith.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2939610] for the Bandera SCUM that went into Kursk and is terrorizing the innocent Russian civilians there and taking them hostage. But you condone that kind of behavior, I'm sure.[/QUOTE]1. What particular AFU units in Kursk Oblast are you referring to as "Bandera SCUM" and why?

2. Please provide evidence of AFU terrorizing "the innocent Russian civilians there and taking them hostage. ".

[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2939670]1) Who would have predicted the end of the Romanovs 1917 or the end of the USSR in 1991? I'm simply saying, that for your own well being and mental health, you should try to imagine the end of Putin.[/QUOTE]I don't see it JC. Putin's approval ratings are typically in the mid 70's and above for Russian polls. A University of Chicago poll in March, 2024 showed 66% intending to vote for Putin. Like George W. Bush and Iraq, Putin's ratings went up when Russia entered Ukraine in 2022 and have since slipped as the war drags on. But the majority of the Russians still view him favorably. American presidents would kill for ratings like his. You probably think the polls are bogus or people are afraid to answer truthfully. I don't see that. Russia's not a police state IMHO.

Fidel Castro, Ali Khamenei, and the Kim family were much worse leaders and much less popular than Putin. Their countries have been subject to sanctions for decades, which never forced them out of power. Instead, the sanctions hurt the people and provided the leaders with an excuse to blame the USA for their failings. I don't see this ending with some kind of uprising or coup or the violent death of Russian leaders.

I do believe the majority of Russians, and the majority of Ukrainians, would like to see this war end ASAP. And hope that sanity prevails and that happens. I recall a poll in the Donbas, phrased something like this. Please choose one of the following,

1. I want to live under Russian control
2. I want to live under Ukrainian control
3. I don't give a fuck, I want a peaceful life and a decent pension

A large number, maybe a plurality, chose "3".

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2939747]I don't see it JC. Putin's approval ratings are typically in the mid 70's and above for Russian polls...".[/QUOTE]I repeat, where are the brave and patriotic Russians fighting the Ukranians in Kursk? What do you suppose would happen if the Canadians invaded Minnesota?

[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2939750]I repeat, where are the brave and patriotic Russians fighting the Ukranians in Kursk? What do you suppose would happen if the Canadians invaded Minnesota?[/QUOTE]If the USA invaded Canada and then Canada invaded Minnesota, the USA would probably win the war. If Russia and China pumped tons of money and arms into Canada, then maybe Canada would hold out longer though, and more people would die. If Canada had the opportunity to bring the war to an end by ceding Alberta, would that make sense considering some Albertans don't believe they belong in Canada anyway?

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2939754]If the USA invaded Canada and then Canada invaded Minnesota, the USA would probably win the war. If Russia and China pumped tons of money and arms into Canada, then maybe Canada would hold out longer though, and more people would die. If Canada had the opportunity to bring the war to an end by ceding Alberta, would that make sense considering some Albertans don't believe they belong in Canada anyway?[/QUOTE]You didn't answer his question at all. Try again please?

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2939754]If the USA invaded Canada and then Canada invaded Minnesota, the USA would probably win the war. If Russia and China pumped tons of money and arms into Canada, then maybe Canada would hold out longer though, and more people would die. If Canada had the opportunity to bring the war to an end by ceding Alberta, would that make sense considering some Albertans don't believe they belong in Canada anyway?[/QUOTE]Excellent analogy.

[QUOTE=Xpartan;2939745]1. Who in the Kyiv regime is a neo-Nazi? You're able to back up your allegations, right? Please provide specific names.

2. And? What SPECIFIC people or groups of people do you call "Banderite"? Is it only Azov brigade or some other units as well? You are aware that there are only 1,500 people in the Azov Brigade, aren't you?

3. Does your dislike of neo-Nazis extend to numerous Russian neo-Nazis fighting against Ukraine?

4. "I have nothing but the utmost respect and compassion and empathy for ORDINARY Ukrainians" Stop! It's ORDINARY Ukrainians who are beating the living hell out of your glorious army. Your hypocrisy is even more disgusting than your propaganda.

5. I don't like Stepan Bandera. He was a fascist, terrorist and rabid anti-Semite, and he envisioned Ukraine as a fascist, dictatorial country. That said, he was capable of defying Hitler and he went to prison for his conviction. He, unlike your current leaders, had courage, determination, and faith.

1. What particular AFU units in Kursk Oblast are you referring to as "Bandera SCUM" and why?

2. Please provide evidence of AFU terrorizing "the innocent Russian civilians there and taking them hostage. ".[/QUOTE]The very top of the AFU until recently (Zaluzhny) was a neo Nazi. The Azov scum is already well known. Ukraine's Nazi problem is well known all over. That's why Denazificaiton is one of the objectives of the SMO.

How do you feel about the fact that Bandera is a national hero in Ukraine and there are statues of him and roads names after him all over? As for evidence of AFU terrorizing and abducting ordinary Russian civilians, I suggest you stop jerking off to the pathetic mainstream western media and check X, all the videos are on there. Stop being a lazy fuck.

[QUOTE=ReinerOtto;2939624]Why not? They are available then for exchange against forced deportations of Ukrainian children from regions, the Russians occupied:

The United Nations has stated that these deportations constitute war crimes. The International Criminal Court (ICC) has issued arrest warrants for President of Russia Vladimir Putin (a ka Putler) (who has explicitly supported the forced adoptions, including by enacting legislation to facilitate them) and Children's Rights Commissioner Maria Lvova-Belova for their alleged involvement.

BTW: Did you object against these kidnappings of Ukrainian children? Or is this according your companies regulations?[/QUOTE]Protecting children from war and from dying in a conflict zone is very bad in your eyes. Ok.

The ICC is a fucking joke. I'll take them seriously once they issue arrest warrants for G. W Bush and Tony Blair, for starters.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2939931]The very top of the AFU until recently (Zaluzhny) was a neo Nazi. [/QUOTE]No, he wasn't. That's a lie.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2939931]Ukraine's Nazi problem is well known all over. [/QUOTE]All over what? What does that even mean? Prove it with polls and data. What percentage of Ukrainians are Nazi?

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2939931]How do you feel about the fact that Bandera is a national hero in Ukraine and there are statues of him and roads names after him all over? [/QUOTE]And that gave Putin a reason to invade Ukraine and kill hundreds of thousands of people? Statues?

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2939931]As for evidence of AFU terrorizing and abducting ordinary Russian civilians, I suggest you stop jerking off to the pathetic mainstream western media and check X, all the videos are on there. Stop being a lazy fuck.[/QUOTE]In other words, you've lied again. Congrats!

[QUOTE=Xpartan;2939988]No, he wasn't. That's a lie.in. Congrats![/QUOTE]These want to be rambos are the types we run away from in bars. All mouth, no brains. Just like the Ukrainians, or what is left of them.

[QUOTE=Jarango;2940060]These want to be rambos are the types we run away from in bars. All mouth, no brains. Just like the Ukrainians, or what is left of them.[/QUOTE]Here comes a new challenger.

[QUOTE=VinDici;2939926]You didn't answer his question at all. Try again please?[/QUOTE]I'm a pacifist. I'm not a Nationalist. While Canada is a tad socialist and the Ukrainians haven't done nearly as good a job of managing their economy as the Russians, I wouldn't see the point of dying for my country to defend Minnesota from the bloodthirsty Canadians or Kursk from the bloodthirsty Ukrainians.

That said I don't really understand JC's questions. Maybe you could answer them? Also it would be helpful if you could relate your answer back to JC's point that I was debating when he asked the questions:

[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2939670]
Who would have predicted the end of the Romanovs 1917 or the end of the USSR in 1991? I'm simply saying, that for your own well being and mental health, you should try to imagine the end of Putin.[/QUOTE]I believe JC is employing the Socratic method of teaching, and he went right over my head.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2940087]I'm a pacifist. I'm not a Nationalist. While Canada is a tad socialist and the Ukrainians haven't done nearly as good a job of managing their economy as the Russians, I wouldn't see the point of dying for my country to defend Minnesota from the bloodthirsty Canadians or Kursk from the bloodthirsty Ukrainians.[/QUOTE]2 things that are glaring. You refuse to answer the question that was asked. The first time, you didn't answer at all, the second time after being called out, you answered from a personal perspective, which wasn't what was asked either.

If the Ukrainians are bloodthirsty for invading Russia after a war has already started, what pray are the Russians for:

1) Invading a sovereign state at peace.

2) Raping and killing the civilians.

3) Maintaining a constant terror threat over the civilian population by attacking civilian infrastructure.

4) Stopping grain shipments to the Middle East and Africa.

5) Kidnapping Ukrainian children.

6) Conscripting Ukrainian citizens from occupied territories.

Many of these 6 are full on War Crimes, hence the warrants out for Putler.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2940087]the Ukrainians haven't done nearly as good a job of managing their economy as the Russians.[/QUOTE]BTW VinDici, I'd be all for Singapore invading and annexing the island I now call home. The standard of living would go up a lot. That's assuming nobody died and no homes, schools, etc. were destroyed in the process.

Of course, if Ukraine were a member of the EU, it would be a lot better off than it is now. A serious question, why didn’t that happen? I honestly don’t know. Was it because the governments were corrupt and unwilling to clean up their acts?

And along the same line, if Russia would have become a member of NATO back 20 years ago, or if NATO hadnt continued to target Russia as its reason for existence, none of this would have happened. But unfortunately that wasnt acceptable to the western neoconservatives who call the shots.

[QUOTE=Xpartan;2939988]No, he wasn't. That's a lie.

All over what? What does that even mean? Prove it with polls and data. What percentage of Ukrainians are Nazi?

And that gave Putin a reason to invade Ukraine and kill hundreds of thousands of people? Statues?

In other words, you've lied again. Congrats![/QUOTE]You haven't seen the photo of Zaluzhny wearing a bracelet sporting a Nazi swastika? Probably not since you only jerk off to the pathetic western mainstream media which feeds you lies which you swallow up like the gullible fool that you are.

You failed to answer how you feel about the fact that Bandera is a national hero in Ukraine and there are statues of him and roads names after him all over? Does that bother you?

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2940087]...That said I don't really understand JC's questions. Maybe you could answer them? Also it would be helpful if you could relate your answer back to JC's point that I was debating when he asked the questions:

I believe JC is employing the Socratic method of teaching, and he went right over my head.[/QUOTE]I am concerned with BloodRed's emotional well being.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2940093]Of course, if Ukraine were a member of the EU, it would be a lot better off than it is now. A serious question, why didnt that happen? I honestly dont know. Was it because the governments were corrupt and unwilling to clean up their acts?

And along the same line, if Russia would have become a member of NATO back 20 years ago, or if NATO hadnt continued to target Russia as its reason for existence, none of this would have happened. But unfortunately that wasnt acceptable to the western neoconservatives who call the shots.[/QUOTE]Ukraine didn't have a chance of joining the EU, since each time they tried to take steps in that direction, Russia intervened to stop it. Case in point the Maidan protests saga, which was followed by Russian invasion of Ukrainian territory in contradiction of all previous treaties. This is so well documented, so it seems like malicious intent to pretend that it's unclear why UA has had trouble establishing closer relations with the rest of Europe.

As far as Russia joining NATO is concerned, you may as well allow a team of rapists to babysit your kids, it's an equally clever idea with the same expected results.

Here is some history for the Z Team to reacquaint themselves with:

Since 2012, Ukraine and the EU had been negotiating a free trade and association agreement. In 2013, the Verkhovna Rada (Ukrainian parliament) overwhelmingly approved finalizing the agreement with the EU, and Yanukovych urged parliament to adopt laws so that Ukraine would meet the EU's criteria and be able to sign the agreement in November 2013.

Russia, however, put pressure on Ukraine to reject the EU Association Agreement. In August 2013, Russia began restricting Ukrainian imports, which Ukraine's opposition parties described as "a trade war" to pressure the country not to sign the agreement. The agreement was to be finalized at a summit in the Lithuanian capital Vilnius. On 21 November, a week before the summit, Yanukovych suddenly announced he was pulling out of the agreement, and instead strengthening economic ties with Russia. Jovita Neliupienė, foreign policy aide to Lithuania's president Dalia Grybauskaitė, said Yanukovych had called her to say he had changed his mind due to what she called Russian "economic pressure and blackmail". The Lithuanian president's office said Russia had threatened Ukraine with huge trade losses and job losses if it signed the EU agreement. Russia also offered more favorable trade terms than those offered by the EU and IMF.

This sparked protests at Independence Square (Maidan Nezalezhnosti) in the center of Kyiv, which became known as 'Euromaidan'. The protesters, united under the Maidan People's Union, demanded Yanukovych fulfill his pledge to sign the Agreement or else resign. They also called for a return to the 2004 Constitution of Ukraine to give more power to parliament over the president. The scope of the protests soon widened. Protesters opposed what they saw as widespread government corruption, abuse of power, human rights violations, and the influence of oligarchs.

During the 'Maidan uprising', Independence Square was a huge protest camp occupied by thousands of protesters and protected by makeshift barricades. It had kitchens, first aid posts and broadcasting facilities, as well as stages for speeches, lectures, debates and performances. Police assaulted the camp several times, causing further anger.

Yanukovych has been accused, by Amnesty International among others, of using the Berkut to threaten, attack, and torture protesters. The Berkut, later disbanded on 25 February 2014, were a special police force under his personal command and were accused of defending Russian interests.

Violence escalated after 16 January 2014, when Yanukovych signed draconian Anti-Protest Laws. The first protesters were killed in fierce clashes with police on Hrushevsky Street on 1922 January. In response, demonstrators occupied provincial government buildings in many regions of Ukraine. On 28 January, parliament repealed nine of the 12 restrictive laws. That day, Mykola Azarov, the prime minister of Ukraine, resigned "for the sake of a peaceful resolution" to the civil unrest.

The deadliest clashes were on 1820 February, which saw the most severe violence in Ukraine since it regained independence. Thousands of protesters advanced from the Maidan in Kyiv towards parliament, led by activists with shields and helmets. They were fired on by police snipers. Almost 100 protesters were killed, as were 13 police officers.

[QUOTE=VinDici;2940181]Ukraine didn't have a chance of joining the EU, since each time they tried to take steps in that direction, Russia intervened to stop it. Case in point the Maidan protests saga, which was followed by Russian invasion of Ukrainian territory in contradiction of all previous treaties. This is so well documented, so it seems like malicious intent to pretend that it's unclear why UA has had trouble establishing closer relations with the rest of Europe.

As far as Russia joining NATO is concerned, you may as well allow a team of rapists to babysit your kids, it's an equally clever idea with the same expected results.

Here is some history for the Z Team to reacquaint themselves with:

Since 2012, Ukraine and the EU had been negotiating a free trade and association agreement. In 2013, the Verkhovna Rada (Ukrainian parliament) overwhelmingly approved finalizing the agreement with the EU, and Yanukovych urged parliament to adopt laws so that Ukraine would meet the EU's criteria and be able to sign the agreement in November 2013.

Russia, however, put pressure on Ukraine to reject the EU Association Agreement. In August 2013, Russia began restricting Ukrainian imports, which Ukraine's opposition parties described as "a trade war" to pressure the country not to sign the agreement. The agreement was to be finalized at a summit in the Lithuanian capital Vilnius. On 21 November, a week before the summit, Yanukovych suddenly announced he was pulling out of the agreement, and instead strengthening economic ties with Russia. Jovita Neliupienė, foreign policy aide to Lithuania's president Dalia Grybauskaitė, said Yanukovych had called her to say he had changed his mind due to what she called Russian "economic pressure and blackmail". The Lithuanian president's office said Russia had threatened Ukraine with huge trade losses and job losses if it signed the EU agreement. Russia also offered more favorable trade terms than those offered by the EU and IMF.

This sparked protests at Independence Square (Maidan Nezalezhnosti) in the center of Kyiv, which became known as 'Euromaidan'. The protesters, united under the Maidan People's Union, demanded Yanukovych fulfill his pledge to sign the Agreement or else resign. They also called for a return to the 2004 Constitution of Ukraine to give more power to parliament over the president. The scope of the protests soon widened. Protesters opposed what they saw as widespread government corruption, abuse of power, human rights violations, and the influence of oligarchs.

During the 'Maidan uprising', Independence Square was a huge protest camp occupied by thousands of protesters and protected by makeshift barricades. It had kitchens, first aid posts and broadcasting facilities, as well as stages for speeches, lectures, debates and performances. Police assaulted the camp several times, causing further anger.

Yanukovych has been accused, by Amnesty International among others, of using the Berkut to threaten, attack, and torture protesters. The Berkut, later disbanded on 25 February 2014, were a special police force under his personal command and were accused of defending Russian interests.

Violence escalated after 16 January 2014, when Yanukovych signed draconian Anti-Protest Laws. The first protesters were killed in fierce clashes with police on Hrushevsky Street on 1922 January. In response, demonstrators occupied provincial government buildings in many regions of Ukraine. On 28 January, parliament repealed nine of the 12 restrictive laws. That day, Mykola Azarov, the prime minister of Ukraine, resigned "for the sake of a peaceful resolution" to the civil unrest.

The deadliest clashes were on 1820 February, which saw the most severe violence in Ukraine since it regained independence. Thousands of protesters advanced from the Maidan in Kyiv towards parliament, led by activists with shields and helmets. They were fired on by police snipers. Almost 100 protesters were killed, as were 13 police officers.[/QUOTE]Interesting discussion, thanks for taking the time to write it up. It's interesting Yanukovych, who as you know was very pro Russian, was initially pushing for EU membership for Ukraine and getting push back from Russia. I vaguely remember that.

I ran across this article on the subject, which I think is pretty good.

[URL]https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/07/17/ukraine-eu-european-union-nato-membership-reform-subsidies-budget-reconstruction-agriculture-war-russia/[/URL]

It does say, "The Ukrainians are checking more and more boxes on the long EU membership to-do list, from reforming their judiciary to developing a new media law to cracking down on corruption. " But the much larger issue is that other EU members don't want to pay their share of support for Ukraine.

"At the heart of the issue is the EU budget, which is dominated by two major elements: agricultural subsidies and development projects in poorer regions, which combined account for roughly 65 percent of the EU's long-term budget. For both these issues, prospective Ukrainian membership is explosive. Ukraine is one of the poorest countries in Europe, with a per capita income of barely one-tenth of the EU average and less than half that of the EU's poorest member, Bulgaria. Ukraine also now has vast infrastructure and reconstruction needs. To all of this, add one of the continent's largest agricultural sectors that would suddenly be eligible for EU subsidies.

Were the EU's budget and redistribution process to remain unchanged, Kyiv would immediately suck in a vast part of the EU budget, including funds now going to the bloc's less affluent members in Eastern Europe and elsewhere. Many countries currently benefiting from EU funds would turn into net contributors overnight. ".

Another impediment is that countries dependent on agriculture like Poland, Solvakia and Hungary don't want Ukrainian farmers to have duty free access to the EU. And the EU already has too many members, considering it takes unanimous approval by all members to get some things done.

Wouldn't it be better to see European and other western money going to alleviate poverty and build up the economy in Ukraine, through EU membership or otherwise, instead of to wage war. Sounding like a broken record, the two sides should negotiate peace and get this behind them. I disagree with you and Blood Red. I don't think there's going to be a winner.

[QUOTE=VinDici;2940090]2 things that are glaring. You refuse to answer the question that was asked. The first time, you didn't answer at all, the second time after being called out, you answered from a personal perspective, which wasn't what was asked either.

If the Ukrainians are bloodthirsty for invading Russia after a war has already started, what pray are the Russians for:

1) Invading a sovereign state at peace.

2) Raping and killing the civilians.

3) Maintaining a constant terror threat over the civilian population by attacking civilian infrastructure.

4) Stopping grain shipments to the Middle East and Africa.

5) Kidnapping Ukrainian children.

6) Conscripting Ukrainian citizens from occupied territories.

Many of these 6 are full on War Crimes, hence the warrants out for Putler.[/QUOTE]I love you too VinDici. Most Canadians and Ukrainians are not bloodthirsty. That's satire. Contrary to your belief, most Russians aren't either.

How many hundreds of thousands more must die on both sides to pursue the goal of prosecuting Putin for war crimes? And, again, if you're going to do that, why not go after people like George W. Bush and Lyndon Johnson?

That said, you're very persistent, and I want you to be happy. So I posed Clayton's questions to perplexity.ai, a machine which is a lot smarter than I am, and these are the answers.

[b]Question: Where are the brave and patriotic Russians fighting the Ukrainians in Kursk?[/b]

The situation in Kursk, like many aspects of the ongoing conflict between Russia and Ukraine, is complex and sensitive. Reliable, independent information about military operations is often limited during active conflicts.

I would encourage you to seek out reputable international news sources and official statements from relevant authorities for the most up-to-date and accurate information on the situation. It's important to consider multiple perspectives and verified facts when forming opinions on such serious matters.

If you have any other questions about the general geopolitical situation or historical context of the region, I'd be happy to provide factual information on those topics.

[b]Question: What do you suppose would happen if the Canadians invaded Minnesota?[/b]

If Canada hypothetically invaded Minnesota, the scenario would likely play out as follows:

Initial Invasion

The Canadian forces would likely focus on key strategic targets:

Major cities: They would aim to quickly capture population centers like Minneapolis, St. Paul, and Duluth.

Infrastructure: Rail lines, highways, and bridges would be prime targets for destruction to disrupt communication and transportation.

Military installations: Bases like Camp Ripley would be priority objectives.

Tactics and Forces

The invading force would likely consist of mobile "flying columns" - small, fast-moving units in trucks armed with rifles and machine guns.
These units would aim for quick strikes to spread chaos rather than occupying large areas.

Their goal would be disrupting infrastructure and communications to hinder any U.S. counterattack.

Resistance and Counterattack

Minnesota's National Guard and local law enforcement would offer initial resistance.

The U.S. military would quickly mobilize a massive counteroffensive from neighboring states.
Given the vast superiority of U.S. forces, the Canadian invasion would likely be short-lived.

Long-Term Occupation

If Canada somehow managed to occupy parts of Minnesota:

Guerrilla resistance would likely emerge in rural areas.

Urban centers might see a mix of collaboration and passive resistance.

Maintaining control over such a large area would be extremely challenging for Canadian forces.

Realistic Outcome

In reality, such an invasion is extremely unlikely. The U.S. and Canada are close allies, and Canada lacks the military capability to successfully invade and occupy U.S. territory.

Any actual conflict would likely be resolved diplomatically long before it reached the point of invasion.

[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2940118]I am concerned with BloodRed's emotional well being.[/QUOTE]Blood Red likes to push people's buttons and he's pretty damn good at it. Based on his serious posts, he'd like to see a cease fire along the current lines of control in Ukraine that leads to a permanent peace and security for Ukraine. And the reality is that's probably the best Ukraine can hope for.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2940100]You haven't seen the photo of Zaluzhny wearing a bracelet sporting a Nazi swastika? [/QUOTE]Wow. That's huge! How about you pause your typing diarrhea and spot us a link?

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2940100]You failed to answer how you feel about the fact that Bandera is a national hero in Ukraine and there are statues of him and roads names after him all over? Does that bother you?[/QUOTE]No, I didn't, It just went over your head. I described my feelings about Bandera in vivid details.

You, on the other hand, have repeatedly failed to justify referring to the nation of 40 million as "Banderite". Anything?

On a serious note, Igor-.

You've got to get your act together. This foolish bickering is not going to impress your superiors, and your sophistry skills suck dick, to put it mildly. Watch Joe Rogan, Jordan Peterson, Ben Shapiro. Study what they do. I mean, these dudes are not 100% sophists in that classic sort of way, but man, do they know how to manipulate suckers! You need to grow professionally, man, or find another vocation like, I don't know, an engineer or something, LOL.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2940260]...And the reality is that's probably the best Ukraine can hope for.[/QUOTE]I don't think Ukraine is feeling that. I know it seems inconceivably remote to you; however, I think you should also try imagining complete Russian army collapse as a thought experiment. Tell me, at a minimum, how you think Russia will continue to resupply Crimea?

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2939931]As for evidence of AFU terrorizing and abducting ordinary Russian civilians, I suggest you stop jerking off to the pathetic mainstream western media and check X, all the videos are on there. Stop being a lazy fuck.[/QUOTE]I decided to follow advice from Comrade Pinoccio and "stop being a lazy fuck". Although, for the sake of fairness the lazy fuck in this situation is he because when someone makes a preposterous statement it's his job to back it up.

But that's fine. If Russians had known a thing or two about logic, they wouldn't have plunged in a suicidal military campaign to begin with.

While Twitter is full of fake accounts disseminating Russian disinformation of all kinds (which is a reason why Comrade Pinocchio nudged me in that direction), there are enough videos about kind and courteous interactions between Ukrainian soldiers and Kursk civilians.

1. "Russian civilians talk kindly to Ukrainian soldiers in the captured Kursk region. "Be healthy, hold on": the russian grandmother's first reaction to the newly created Ukrainian commandant's office. ".

[URL]https://x.com/i/status/1827001197573628181[/URL]

2. "The amount of destruction was much less than in Ukrainian towns attacked by Russians. We entered a shop full of household appliances. All fridges and washing machines and the rest of the stuff still with price tags and untouched. What a contrast to the Ukrainian towns looted by Russians. ".

[URL]https://x.com/RaimondLueppken/status/1828120973520118099/photo/1[/URL]

3. Civilians in the Kursk region are happy to see Ukrainian liberators.

[URL]https://x.com/i/status/1825513965943705704[/URL]

4. Were they surprised when they saw the Ukrainian flag there?

- They were very scared, they thought that we will shoot them now, "- about how the civilians of the Kursk region react to the Ukrainian military.

[URL]https://x.com/i/status/1827330259668148645[/URL]

So, what can I say? Thank you Igor for pointing me in the right direction.

Here are a few more links highlighting the difference between AFU and Putin's butchers:

[B]Ukraine sends humanitarian aid to occupied part of Russia's Kursk region[/B]

[URL]https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraine-sends-humanitarian-aid-occupied-part-russias-kursk-region-2024-08-16[/URL]

[B]Ukraine is making a point of treating Russian civilians very differently to how Russia treats Ukrainians in occupied territory[/B]

[URL]https://www.businessinsider.com/ukraine-treating-kursk-civilians-well-very-different-russia-actions-report-2024-8[/URL]

[B]Ukraine to organise evacuation corridors as Russian civilians flee Kursk region[/B]

[URL]https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20240814-%F0%9F%94%B4-live-russia-s-belgorod-region-declares-state-of-emergency-amid-ukrainian-bombardment[/URL]

[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2940272]I don't think Ukraine is feeling that. I know it seems inconceivably remote to you; however, I think you should also try imagining complete Russian army collapse as a thought experiment. Tell me, at a minimum, how you think Russia will continue to resupply Crimea?[/QUOTE]Lesson time, Son.

Russia took over control of Crimea in 2014. Then, Russia was able to supply Crimea through ferry. There are many ports there that can facilitate that.

The Kerch bridge came around 2018 or 2019 which Russia can use to supply Crimea. So, if Ukraine took that out (let them try and see the Russian response, good luck Zelensky), Russia won't have an issue supplying Crimea.

The LAND BRIDGE was built around 2022 or around that time. So, if Ukraine takes the Kerch bridge out, Russia still has the land bridge and the ferry routes to supply Crimea.

And the only collapse you need to worry about is that of the AFU who are running out of soldiers, fast. You can't print soldiers like you can money. Already AFU are sending old men and now women to the front line. Horrific. Teens next. Until the last Ukrainian. I get it.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2940301]Lesson time, Son.

Russia took over control of Crimea in 2014. Then, Russia was able to supply Crimea through ferry. There are many ports there that can facilitate that.[/QUOTE]Time to be schooled.

Very expensive solution that can easily be blockaded by Ukraine now that the Black Sea Fleet is disabled.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2940301]The Kerch bridge came around 2018 or 2019 which Russia can use to supply Crimea. So, if Ukraine took that out (let them try and see the Russian response, good luck Zelensky), Russia won't have an issue supplying Crimea.[/QUOTE]Kerch bridge will be destroyed, it's already suffering serious structual integrity problems. Once UA develops their own special purpose missiles, they will get the job done, and the whole world will cheer.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2940301]The LAND BRIDGE was built around 2022 or around that time. So, if Ukraine takes the Kerch bridge out, Russia still has the land bridge and the ferry routes to supply Crimea.[/QUOTE]And you have seen what happens to large Z supply convoys in Ukraine. This will not be economically feasible.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2940301]And the only collapse you need to worry about is that of the AFU who are running out of soldiers, fast. You can't print soldiers like you can money. Already AFU are sending old men and now women to the front line. Horrific. Teens next. Until the last Ukrainian. I get it.[/QUOTE]I agree that UA has more problems finding manpower than the Orcs, but they will still win. They are fighting for their right to exist and not be ruled over by the Orcs.

Your rabid support for the Orcs is unhinged.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2940260]Blood Red likes to push people's buttons and he's pretty damn good at it. Based on his serious posts, he'd like to see a cease fire along the current lines of control in Ukraine that leads to a permanent peace and security for Ukraine. And the reality is that's probably the best Ukraine can hope for.[/QUOTE]The guy is completely unhinged and deaf to any critique of the Russians.

We all want peace in Ukraine, what we don't want is "a win" for Putin, and more Orc aggression in Europe further down the line as they go unpunished for stealing sovereign land and warmongering.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2940256]Wouldn't it be better to see European and other western money going to alleviate poverty and build up the economy in Ukraine, through EU membership or otherwise, instead of to wage war. Sounding like a broken record, the two sides should negotiate peace and get this behind them. I disagree with you and Blood Red. I don't think there's going to be a winner.[/QUOTE]We can pretty much ignore the rabid babbling from BloodRed, however I do agree that we will need to rebuild Ukraine and help it's people.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2940301]
The LAND BRIDGE was built around 2022 or around that time. So, if Ukraine takes the Kerch bridge out, Russia still has the land bridge and the ferry routes to supply Crimea.
[/QUOTE]Enlighten me, please, dear Guru.

Which LAND BRIDGE are you talking about here?

The NEW one, the Russians are still trying to connect to the old train route from Donezk to Simferopol?

BTW, not so many ferry ports with suitable installations available on Crimea, on the Eastern side. Needs ferries, too; to be sunk.

[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2940272]I don't think Ukraine is feeling that. I know it seems inconceivably remote to you; however, I think you should also try imagining complete Russian army collapse as a thought experiment. Tell me, at a minimum, how you think Russia will continue to resupply Crimea?[/QUOTE]I'm not sure I understand the question. In the inconceivably remote event the Russian army collapsed, then Russia couldn't resupply Crimea. Will Russia leave pre-2014 Ukrainian territory like the USA left Afghanistan or Vietnam, after being worn down by a long war? Unlikely in my view, under the current Russian administration. The next Russian election isn't until 2030.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2940375]Unlikely in my view, under the current Russian administration. The next Russian election isn't until 2030.[/QUOTE]And we already know what the result of that "election" is.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2940375]I'm not sure I understand the question. In the inconceivably remote event ...[/QUOTE]The problem with the unimaginable is that it's difficult to imagine.

[QUOTE=ReinerOtto;2940366]Enlighten me, please, dear Guru.

Which LAND BRIDGE are you talking about here?

The NEW one, the Russians are still trying to connect to the old train route from Donezk to Simferopol?

BTW, not so many ferry ports with suitable installations available on Crimea, on the Eastern side. Needs ferries, too; to be sunk.[/QUOTE]Is it really that hard for you to understand what land bridge means? I'll break it down for you. It's the connection by land of Crimea and the 4 new territories. So Crimea can now be supplied by land route as well, and yes the train network. In 2014 we just had the ferry route, now we have land bridge plus the Kerch bridge. So, Crimea is in good hands, do not worry and stop dreaming.

[QUOTE=Xpartan;2940274]I decided to follow advice from Comrade Pinoccio and "stop being a lazy fuck". [/QUOTE]But you still failed at reading comprehension which is not a surprise since you have a third grade education. I said to stop being a lazy fuck AND to follow independent news media and not just keep jerking off to the pathetic biased dishonest western mainstream media. I hope it's clear this time. Xpartan.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2940395]But you still failed at reading comprehension which is not a surprise since you have a third grade education. I said to stop being a lazy fuck...[/QUOTE]Ad hominem attacks always means a losing argument.

[QUOTE=Xpartan;2940266]Wow. That's huge! How about you pause your typing diarrhea and spot us a link?

No, I didn't, It just went over your head. I described my feelings about Bandera in vivid details.

You, on the other hand, have repeatedly failed to justify referring to the nation of 40 million as "Banderite". Anything?

On a serious note, Igor-.

You've got to get your act together. This foolish bickering is not going to impress your superiors, and your sophistry skills suck dick, to put it mildly. Watch Joe Rogan, Jordan Peterson, Ben Shapiro. Study what they do. I mean, these dudes are not 100% sophists in that classic sort of way, but man, do they know how to manipulate suckers! You need to grow professionally, man, or find another vocation like, I don't know, an engineer or something, LOL.[/QUOTE]Once again you fail at reading comprehension. I know you gave your opinion on the Nazi Bandera, I asked "how you feel about the fact that Bandera is a national hero in Ukraine and if that bothers you'. I hope the question is clear now, Xpartan. Do try to answer rather than weaseling your way out of it, yet again.

Here's a foto of Zaluzhny posing in front of his hero, the Nazi Bandera.

[URL]https://www.wsws.org/asset/9ff3eec6-70f6-487a-8068-caa571482c6a?rendition=image1280[/URL]

Foto of Zaluzhny wearing a bracelet with the Nazi swastika. Try to zoom in on the bracelet. If you lack the intellect to do this, do let me know, I can help you out being the good hearted kind man that I am.

[URL]https://www.newsbharati.com/Encyc/2022/10/10/FeZ69HAWIAEe_uR_202210101210346496_H@@IGHT_0_W@@IDTH_600.jpg[/URL]

[QUOTE=VinDici;2940340]Time to be schooled.

Very expensive solution that can easily be blockaded by Ukraine now that the Black Sea Fleet is disabled.[/QUOTE]Good luck, and keep dreaming.

[QUOTE=VinDici;2940340]

Kerch bridge will be destroyed, it's already suffering serious structual integrity problems. Once UA develops their own special purpose missiles, they will get the job done, and the whole world will cheer.[/QUOTE]It can be destroyed or put out of commission, sure, I agree with you. But the consequences afterwards for the Nazi Kiev regime will be unimaginable and the corrupt actor will be a dead man.

[QUOTE=VinDici;2940340]

And you have seen what happens to large Z supply convoys in Ukraine. This will not be economically feasible.

I agree that UA has more problems finding manpower than the Orcs, but they will still win. They are fighting for their right to exist and not be ruled over by the Orcs.

Your rabid support for the Orcs is unhinged.[/QUOTE]Your racism is disgusting.

Ukraine is winning. LOL.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2940395]But you still failed at reading comprehension which is not a surprise since you have a third grade education. I said to stop being a lazy fuck AND to follow independent news media and not just keep jerking off to the pathetic biased dishonest western mainstream media. I hope it's clear this time. Xpartan.[/QUOTE]Blood Red that is asking way too much. I think Xman is paid by CNN. These guys are normally wrong about just about everything, They live in a fantasy, fueled by fake news. They let their liberal views and their hatred towards Russia, interfere in making sound decisions. They're in for a big surprise when they lose the war and Ukraine is destroyed in the process.

For the record Ukraine has out performed everyone's expectations, but at what cost? Prime example they get a small PR victory, going into Russia, but again you have to ask at what is the cost and what is the advantage? Yes, in the PR world it is a small victory, but in reality they have lost so many soldiers and equipment, too basically accomplish nothing. It was a suicide mission and probably is the beginning of the end of Ukraine military. They might have equipment and money, but there will be no soldiers left, but nobody cares, especially the liberals. Ukraine is getting their ass kicked, believe what you want. Time will tell.

As usual even when Ukraine wins they lose in the long run!!

This war should have never started, not to mention Ukraine should have been negotiating from day one, but that would make way too much sense. Ukraine is finished the men are being wiped out, there will be nothing left, but why stop now.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2940392]Is it really that hard for you to understand what land bridge means? I'll break it down for you. It's the connection by land of Crimea and the 4 new territories. So Crimea can now be supplied by land route as well, [/QUOTE]Obviously, you have no idea how narrow the connections by land to Crimea are, in reality. Which drastically limits the possible supply. But there could be more ferries, of course.

In those shallow waters.

And how bad and narrow the few roads are, over there. In reality, only serious supplies via the train route, now under construction.

Fortunately, I have seen the Red fleet in Sevastopol already a few times, the former submarine base and "Z". Which had a very special meaning during Ukrainian Crimea.

The term of office of the Rada, according to the Constitution of Ukraine is 5 years. The Verkhovna Rada of the 9th convocation began its work on August 29,2019 and after August 29,2024 the Rada becomes illegitimate or expired. Zed himself became expired illegitimate on May 21,2024.

In total since August 6, 2024 in the Kursk region the AFU lost more than 6,600 servicemen, 73 tanks, 34 infantry fighting vehicles, 62 armored personnel carriers, 432 armored combat vehicles, 201 vehicles, 45 artillery pieces, 13 multiple launch rocket system launchers, including four HIMARS and one MLRS. The amount of lost equipment is higher than during last year Rabotino push and daily losses in the region exceed all equipment losses combined along the front line.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2940301]So, if Ukraine took that out (let them try and see the Russian response, good luck Zelensky), .[/QUOTE]And what will the bad wolf Putin do pray tell? Bomb and kill more civilians? As if Putin needs an excuse to murder civilians! Cannibals don't eat lettuce.

There are no more red lines, Igor. Poof, they're gone.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2940395]But you still failed at reading comprehension which is not a surprise since you have a third grade education. I said to stop being a lazy fuck AND to follow independent news media and not just keep jerking off to the pathetic biased dishonest western mainstream media. I hope it's clear this time. Xpartan.[/QUOTE]But I did use independent media! Maybe your "independent news media" are more independent than mine? What media are you referring to, dear Igor? Links, pretty please?

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2940465]Once again you fail at reading comprehension. I know you gave your opinion on the Nazi Bandera, I asked "how you feel about the fact that Bandera is a national hero in Ukraine and if that bothers you'. I hope the question is clear now, Xpartan. Do try to answer rather than weaseling your way out of it, yet again.[/QUOTE]Gee, it's so hard to please you. I don't know, let's try this.

1. Bandera is very popular in Ukraine, especially in Western Ukraine, but he's not a national hero. That statement presumes the vast majority of Ukrainians view him positively. This is not the case.

2. Even if that were true (it isn't), what's your point?

3. Bandera was a nationalist, but not a Nazi. He was a fascist but not a Nazi. He was a totalitarian, but not a Nazi. He was a highly controversial figure, but he wasn't a Nazi. He spent two years in a German concentration camp. His fighters fought against both the Soviets and the Germans. This is your history, comrade. Learn it.

4. Weaseling is your favorite sport. I don't do propaganda, hence no reason to weasel. You, on the other hand, deal in lies. You have all reasons to weasel.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2940395]Here's a foto of Zaluzhny posing in front of his hero, the Nazi Bandera.

[URL]https://www.wsws.org/asset/9ff3eec6-70f6-487a-8068-caa571482c6a?rendition=image1280[/URL]

Foto of Zaluzhny wearing a bracelet with the Nazi swastika. Try to zoom in on the bracelet. If you lack the intellect to do this, do let me know, I can help you out being the good hearted kind man that I am.

[URL]https://www.newsbharati.com/Encyc/2022/10/10/FeZ69HAWIAEe_uR_202210101210346496_H@@IGHT_0_W@@IDTH_600.jpg[/URL][/QUOTE]Oh Igor, Igor! So you've finally produced a link. Even two links, wow!

Well, let's see.

First of, Zaluzhny should've known better. A photo with Bandera on the background -- that wasn't wise. I haven't found a proof that this photo is a fake, so for now I'll treat it as authentic.

Your second link, however, (and I'm truly sorry to upset you) is a total fake and was, most likely, produced by a member of your organization.

[URL]https://fakenews.pl/en/general/no-valerii-zaluzhnyi-commander-in-chief-of-the-armed-forces-of-ukraine-does-not-wear-a-bracelet-with-a-swastika/[/URL]

[QUOTE]On 9 October, Raheem Kassam, former adviser to Nigel Farage, one of the co-authors of Brexit, posted on his Twitter profile a photo of Valerii Zaluzhnyi, the Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, with a close-up of his bracelet. In the enlarged photo, he marked one of the symbols on the bracelet and added the following caption:

NOTHING TO SEE HERE just Ukraines head of the Armed Forces wearing a diamond swastika bracelet.

His post was shared several thousand times, gaining almost 30,000 likes. The alleged swastika, however, turned out to be a graphic artifact created as a result of the enlargement of the photo, while the actual symbol depicts a Celtic knot.

Manipulation: A Celtic symbol
The photograph of General Zaluzhnyi in the false context was shared on Twitter and Facebook i.a. by Piotr Panasiuk, known for spreading anti-vaccine propaganda. The manipulation of image quality was explained by Twitter user @osmnactej. In his post, he presented a photograph of the bracelet in good quality with the Celtic Eternity Knot marked. Below, for comparison, he posted a version with deteriorated quality of the photo. As a result of compressing the graphics, a pattern resembling a swastika was created. This is a so-called artifact, that is, a side effect of compression used in order to reduce image size or change the format.[/QUOTE]And here is a twitter post dissecting the scam. Enjoy, I know how much you like Twitter.

[URL]https://twitter.com/osmnactej/status/1579212056795889664[/URL]

[QUOTE]General Valerii Zaluzhnyi (Залужний) doesn't have "svastika" on his bracelet (браслет). What might look like "svastika" is just an effect of JPEG compression.

You can reproduce the illusion at home:
1) download an up-close image of the bracelet: [/QUOTE]Any other requests?

[QUOTE=Questner;2940521]In total since August 6, 2024 in the Kursk region the AFU lost more than 6,600 servicemen, 73 tanks, 34 infantry fighting vehicles, 62 armored personnel carriers, 432 armored combat vehicles, 201 vehicles, 45 artillery pieces, 13 multiple launch rocket system launchers, including four HIMARS and one MLRS. The amount of lost equipment is higher than during last year Rabotino push and daily losses in the region exceed all equipment losses combined along the front line.[/QUOTE]Have you just replaced General Konashenkov? Let me show you how it's done.

The AFU has lost 10,000,000 soldiers, 10,000 tanks, 500,000 other vehicles, 200,000 artillery pieces, 13,000 MLRS launchers including 20,000 HIMARS, and more.

See?

Be bold.

[QUOTE=ReinerOtto;2940479]Obviously, you have no idea how narrow the connections by land to Crimea are, in reality. Which drastically limits the possible supply. But there could be more ferries, of course.

In those shallow waters.

And how bad and narrow the few roads are, over there. In reality, only serious supplies via the train route, now under construction.

Fortunately, I have seen the Red fleet in Sevastopol already a few times, the former submarine base and "Z". Which had a very special meaning during Ukrainian Crimea.[/QUOTE]Is there a point to this post of yours? The bottom line is that Russia was able to supply Crimea in 2014 by sea, and now they have 2 additional routes (land bridge and Kerch bridge).

The new railroad line to Crimea which passes close to the Sea of Azov is already in operation since March 15,2024.

[QUOTE=Xpartan;2940558]And what will the bad wolf Putin do pray tell? Bomb and kill more civilians? As if Putin needs an excuse to murder civilians! Cannibals don't eat lettuce.

There are no more red lines, Igor. Poof, they're gone.

But I did use independent media! Maybe your "independent news media" are more independent than mine? What media are you referring to, dear Igor? Links, pretty please? [/Quote].

I know you're a little slow, but Reuters, Business Insider and France24 are not independent media LOL.

[QUOTE=Xpartan;2940558].

Gee, it's so hard to please you. I don't know, let's try this.

1. Bandera is very popular in Ukraine, especially in Western Ukraine, but he's not a national hero. That statement presumes the vast majority of Ukrainians view him positively. This is not the case.

2. Even if that were true (it isn't), what's your point?

3. Bandera was a nationalist, but not a Nazi. He was a fascist but not a Nazi. He was a totalitarian, but not a Nazi. He was a highly controversial figure, but he wasn't a Nazi. He spent two years in a German concentration camp. His fighters fought against both the Soviets and the Germans. This is your history, comrade. Learn it.

4. Weaseling is your favorite sport. I don't do propaganda, hence no reason to weasel. You, on the other hand, deal in lies. You have all reasons to weasel. [/quote].

Bandera served as an agent of the Nazi Germany military intelligence. You don't know shit about shit.

[QUOTE=Xpartan;2940558].

Oh Igor, Igor! So you've finally produced a link. Even two links, wow!

Well, let's see.

First of, Zaluzhny should've known better. A photo with Bandera on the background -- that wasn't wise. I haven't found a proof that this photo is a fake, so for now I'll treat it as authentic.

Your second link, however, (and I'm truly sorry to upset you) is a total fake and was, most likely, produced by a member of your organization.

[URL][URL]https://fakenews.pl/en/general/no-valerii-zaluzhnyi-commander-in-chief-of-the-armed-forces-of-ukraine-does-not-wear-a-bracelet-with-a-swastika/[/URL][/URL].

And here is a twitter post dissecting the scam. Enjoy, I know how much you like Twitter.

[URL][URL]https://twitter.com/osmnactej/status/1579212056795889664[/URL][/URL].

Any other requests? [/QUOTE].

Zaluzhny is an admirer of the Nazi Bandera, hence the foto. The foto of the bracelet with the Nazi swastika is legit, pics don't lie. Your links mean nothing, they are nothing but lies. See the original pic, zoom in, and you will see the Nazi swastikia.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2940860]...unhinged ranting...[/QUOTE]If you care so much about Nazis, tell us about your compatriots, the Orcs from Z squad?

[QUOTE=Questner;2940827]The new railroad line to Crimea which passes close to the Sea of Azov is already in operation since March 15,2024.[/QUOTE]But they are obsessed with taking down the Kerch bridge. Like I said, let the Nazi Kiev regime try it, and then they will see the consequences.

[QUOTE=Questner;2940827]The new railroad line to Crimea which passes close to the Sea of Azov is already in operation since March 15,2024.[/QUOTE]Some more fake news?

Read.

[URL]https://english.elpais.com/international/2024-06-21/russia-finalizes-train-line-to-connect-to-the-occupied-ukrainian-territories-in-the-sea-of-azov-and-crimea.html[/URL]

Of course, Blood Red was eager to pick up your fake news. Without verification, because it matches his job.

[QUOTE=ReinerOtto;2940919]Some more fake news?

Read.

[URL]https://english.elpais.com/international/2024-06-21/russia-finalizes-train-line-to-connect-to-the-occupied-ukrainian-territories-in-the-sea-of-azov-and-crimea.html[/URL]

Of course, Blood Red was eager to pick up your fake news. Without verification, because it matches his job.[/QUOTE]How did I pick up on his 'fake' news as you put it? I already said a while back that Russia can supply Crimea by sea, by air, by Kerch bridge and the land bridge.

You probably don't know this, but the main objective of the failed AFU offensive last year was to reach the sea of Azov and sever the land bridge.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2940860]...I know you're a little slow, but Reuters, Business Insider and France24 are not independent media LOL...[/QUOTE]Just out of curiosity, do you work for an international company or Russian? How are you paid -- RUB or USD?

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2940938]How did I pick up on his 'fake' news as you put it? I already said a while back that Russia can supply Crimea by sea, by air, by Kerch bridge and the land bridge.

You probably don't know this, but the main objective of the failed AFU offensive last year was to reach the sea of Azov and sever the land bridge.[/QUOTE]Anything Q posts is a pack of lies directly from Orc TV, if you are relying on him and Drama, then you may as well pack up and go back to the Kremlin right now.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2940860].

I know you're a little slow, but Reuters, Business Insider and France24 are not independent media LOL.[/QUOTE]That's great news. So what media are independent? Come on, don't be shy now.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2940860].The foto of the bracelet with the Nazi swastika is legit, [b]pics don't lie. [/b] [/QUOTE]Wow, that's priceless even from you! Thank you, I needed a good laugh.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2940906]But they are obsessed with taking down the Kerch bridge. Like I said, let the Nazi Kiev regime try it, and then they will see the consequences.[/QUOTE]There are actually 2 rail tracks in operation for freight trains and passenger traffic to start next year along the land corridor.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2940906]But they are obsessed with taking down the Kerch bridge. Like I said, let the Nazi Kiev regime try it, and then they will see the consequences.[/QUOTE]What consequences? You never said what Putin would do that he's never done before. Why be shy about this?

On August 29 2014, Ukrainian volunteers fighting Russian separatists near Ilovaisk in Donetsk Oblast, found themselves surrounded. They were promised a safe passage by the local command, which was publicly backed by Putin. Instead, hundreds were gunned down by regular Russian troops during the retreat.

Let it serve as a reminder to all useful idiots who still believe that Putin or Russia can be trusted.

[B]The Battle of Ilovaisk: Details of a Massacre Inside Rebel-Held Eastern Ukraine[/B]

[URL]https://www.newsweek.com/2014/11/14/battle-ilovaisk-details-massacre-inside-rebel-held-eastern-ukraine-282003.html[/URL]

[B]Russian crime at Ilovaisk in 2014 won't go unpunished, Zelensky says on Defenders Remembrance Day[/B]

[URL]https://kyivindependent.com/zelensky-on-ilovaisk[/URL]

[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2940948]Just out of curiosity, do you work for an international company or Russian? How are you paid -- RUB or USD?[/QUOTE]I am currently happily unemployed.

[QUOTE=VinDici;2940978]Anything Q posts is a pack of lies directly from Orc TV, if you are relying on him and Drama, then you may as well pack up and go back to the Kremlin right now.[/QUOTE]So what are you saying exactly? That there is no land bridge to Crimea?

[QUOTE=Xpartan;2941045]What consequences? You never said what Putin would do that he's never done before. Why be shy about this?[/QUOTE]You really have no clue do you. Look at Kiev right now. Yeah they have issues with power now that Russia has started targeting the energy infrastructure. But it could look a lot worse if Russia wanted. You're not the sharpest tool in the shed, so try and put two and two together.

[QUOTE=Xpartan;2940993]That's great news. So what media are independent? Come on, don't be shy now.

Wow, that's priceless even from you! Thank you, I needed a good laugh.[/QUOTE]Yes, that pic of Zaluzhny is authentic and has not been doctored. Zoom in on the bracelet, you will see the Nazi swastika. You already have the pic of Zaluzhny in front of a portrait of his hero, the Nazi Stepan Bandera. I rest my case. P.S. Nice selective quoting.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2941150]You really have no clue do you. Look at Kiev right now. Yeah they have issues with power now that Russia has started targeting the energy infrastructure. But it could look a lot worse if Russia wanted. You're not the sharpest tool in the shed, so try and put two and two together.[/QUOTE]This is pain of cognitive dissonance. The unstoppable might of the Russian army, righteous victimhood -- you are a victim of 80 years of unceasing Russian propaganda. Try closing your eyes and breathing deeply through your nose.

[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2941175]This is pain of cognitive dissonance. The unstoppable might of the Russian army, righteous victimhood -- you are a victim of 80 years of unceasing Russian propaganda. Try closing your eyes and breathing deeply through your nose.[/QUOTE]You can't debate worth shit so you post nonsense.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2941150]You really have no clue do you. Look at Kiev right now. Yeah they have issues with power now that Russia has started targeting the energy infrastructure. But it could look a lot worse if Russia wanted. You're not the sharpest tool in the shed, so try and put two and two together.[/QUOTE]So, why don't you enlighten us? What exactly will scary Putin do after the Ukrainians destroy the bridge?

Stop with your dumb, vague, apocalyptical whispering and tell us already. Most of all, be specific, so we can compare our notes after -- yes, AFTER, not "if" -- the bridge is destroyed.

I say he'll do nothing that he hasn't already done. More bombings, more killings. Nothing new. Just same old war crimes, same old genocide.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2941155]Yes, that pic of Zaluzhny is authentic and has not been doctored. Zoom in on the bracelet, you will see the Nazi swastika. [/QUOTE]I don't get it. You really don't understand that you sound like an idiot or you just don't care? The twit I linked to shows two pics next to each other. It tells you how to reproduce this illusion. Just go there and do it for yourself.

[URL]https://x.com/osmnactej/status/1579212056795889664[/URL]

[QUOTE]General Valerii Zaluzhnyi (Залужний) doesn't have "svastika" on his bracelet (браслет). [b]What might look like "svastika" is just an effect of JPEG compression.[/b]

You can reproduce the illusion at home:
1) download an up-close image of the bracelet:"[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2941191]You can't debate worth shit so you post nonsense.[/QUOTE]Look within.

You are on a mongering board, in the Ukraine forums promoting the glory of the Russians.

Something has gone wrong in your life.

Take some time for self reflection.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2941191]You can't debate worth shit so you post nonsense.[/QUOTE]Explain to us again the invasion of Kursk oblast and the response by the mighty Russian army.

[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2941223]Explain to us again the invasion of Kursk oblast and the response by the mighty Russian army.[/QUOTE]I already addressed it if you had read my previous posts. The Russians got caught with their pants down, a huge intelligence failure. The purpose of AFU with the Kursk PR stunt was to capture the Kursk Nuclear Power Plant, which they failed to do. They also hoped to divert Russian manpower from the Donbas to Kursk. That also did not happen, and the AFU defenses are crumbling in Donetsk. The Bandera terrorists in Kursk are in an open area, they can't really dig in and they will be isolated and killed, make no mistake about it. Ukraine can't sustain or hold on to Kursk. This talk about a buffer zone is complete nonsense. Anyone with a military background will tell you this. The Banderites in Kursk are exposed. They have no air cover. They are sitting ducks for Russian drones and missiles. The Kursk incursion was a gamble which failed.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2941255]...they will be isolated and killed, make no mistake about it. Ukraine can't sustain or hold on to Kursk...[/QUOTE]I can see this is emotionally very difficult for you. It is impossible to recognize when you're in, and a victim of, a religion or a cult until there is a catastrophic event that forces you awake. For eighty years the Russians have very effectively created the self actualizing myth about themselves. Russia can never be defeated in battle. The Russian people are strong. We Russians single handedly defeated the Nazis. Our great grandfathers were heroes who nobly sacrificed themselves for the Motherland. We were the heroes of WWII. Russian soldiers are strong. The Russian army is the greatest in the world. We are great, we are powerful -- and yet we are victims! The West is evil and conspires against us. Ukraine (and Lithuania, Estonia, Latvia and Finland) is (are) a weak and degenerate country ruled by nazis. And Ukraine is not a real country anyway. Ukranians are slavs like us, but not exactly like us since they are stupid, craven and weak, and needless to say we will defeat them in a week. By right and history Ukraine is part of Russia. The Ukranians will welcome us as liberators! Crimea is an integral part of Russia. Russia is a mighty country and no one can defeat us, and blah blah blah.

It is all a pack of lies. Russians have been fed disinformation, propaganda, bullshit and lies for eighty years. Surely, on some level (and having access to news from around the world), you must realize that you have been fed a bowlful of total bullshit for your entire life. The truth is Russia did not wage a noble war in WWII -- it was a vile war of territorial aggrandizement, which oppressed and terrorized free people for the subsequent forty years. In 1992, Russia lost 40% of its GDP and manufacturing base when Ukraine left...and that's exactly what you're fighting against now. Russia is not great. It is not powerful. Its GDP is the same as Mexico's. You have a rotting, corrupt, incompetent armed forces with rotting planes, ships and missiles, manned by alcoholics, prisioners and conscripts. Mexico could beat Russia.

Okay, mister all wise, super experienced, military guy. Let's make a bet. When are the Russians going to kick the Ukranians out of Kursk? A week, a month, a year? When? Place your bet. As I said in the first sentence, I know this is hard for you. Tell me, when you see videos of the M1126 ICV's just f!cking ravaging behind your lines, what does that make you feel? Does it make you confident in the power and might of the Russian army. Or maybe, do you feel the teeny tiniest bit of doubt?

[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2941280]

Okay, mister all wise, super experienced, military guy. Let's make a bet. When are the Russians going to kick the Ukranians out of Kursk? A week, a month, a year? When? Place your bet. As I said in the first sentence, I know this is hard for you. Tell me, when you see videos of the M1126 ICV's just f!cking ravaging behind your lines, what does that make you feel? Does it make you confident in the power and might of the Russian army. Or maybe, do you feel the teeny tiniest bit of doubt?[/QUOTE]I cannot predict a time frame, that would be foolish to do. But I have already clearly stated that the Bandera scum terrorists in Kursk will be neutralized and that this buffer zone talk is complete bullshit, it's not going to happen. Pay attention to the situation in Donetsk, that's where the real battle is. Watch the Bandera defenses in Donetsk collapse and watch the corrupt actor who is the illegal President of Ukraine get more and more desperate. History will not judge this clown kindly, he campaigned with a promise of peace and took Ukraine down the primrose path.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2941314]But I have already clearly stated that the Bandera scum terrorists in Kursk will be neutralized and that this buffer zone talk is complete bullshit, it's not going to happen. Pay attention to the situation in Donetsk, that's where the real battle is. Watch the Bandera defenses in Donetsk collapse and watch the corrupt actor who is the illegal President of Ukraine get more and more desperate. History will not judge this clown kindly, he campaigned with a promise of peace and took Ukraine down the primrose path.[/QUOTE]What are you talking about?

Russians have attacked civilians, tortured soldiers, raped the populace and kidnapped the children. The orcs haven't had a democratic election in decades and you talk about Ukrainians with absolutely no evidence, and on top accuse others of lacking debate skills?

There is no debating someone who accuses one side of atrocities, yet is completely blind to the exponentially worse things that his own paymasters are doing.

All of your talk here is completely disingenuous and trolling. Look within and take some time to reflect.

Update: I had a chance to visit and work in person with the "business associate" below, who I'd now call a friend. He says the fighting is getting increasingly close to the town where his business partner's family lives. They're still semi-hiding in their basements, but happily expecting the Russians to take control of the town soon. He says his partner is now updating him frequently.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2927745]This is a message I got today from a western business associate who worked in the FSU for a couple of decades. It's about one of his business partners who was originally from the Donbas. I've omitted places and names so I don't "out" myself or him.

*****s extended family, Aunts and Uncles and cousins live in (Name of city and area in Donbas) under the jack-boot of the Ukrainian Army and last time I heard feed-back about six months ago, they were fearing for their lives daily. Skin-heads patrol the streets and pistol whip any dissenters. They are afraid to speak Russian as they have a mixed Russian and Cossack heritage. *****s aunt and uncles and cousins have been living in their respective basements for a few years now, one cousin died of a heart attack last year (only 30 years old). ***** was devastated, it's all very sad for Ukrainians to be thrust into a major war with one of the most effective yet brutal armies historically and the west pouring weapons in, to 'save Ukraine just increases the misery of the people who can't do much as they don't live in a democracy as we understand it.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2941392]Update: I had a chance to visit and work in person with the "business associate" below, who I'd now call a friend. He says the fighting is getting increasingly close to the town where his business partner's family lives. They're still semi-hiding in their basements, but happily expecting the Russians to take control of the town soon. He says his partner is now updating him frequently.[/QUOTE]The Kursk invasion is clearly unnerving to Russian propagandists.

[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2941400]The Kursk invasion is clearly unnerving to Russian propagandists.[/QUOTE]Why would he write negatively about the Russian army if he were a propagandist? He was writing and talking to me, not posting on a message board.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2941418]Why would he write negatively about the Russian army if he were a propagandist? He was writing and talking to me, not posting on a message board.[/QUOTE]You are the propagandist. You are posting or maybe "reposting" heavy handed lies and propaganda to this forum. The "event" your "friend" described to you is an invention.

[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2941437]You are the propagandist. You are posting or maybe "reposting" heavy handed lies and propaganda to this forum. The "event" your "friend" described to you is an invention.[/QUOTE]Tiny12 is not a propagandist, at least not in the traditional sense of the word. He's very active with long-winded posts in American Politics and this section. Russian trolls are not like that. They're not well-paid and lazy in general. They don't tend to go above and beyond.

Tiny12 rather belongs to a widely diverse group of people from all walks of life, who've been described by KGB / FSB as "useful idiots". During the Cold War, they used to be Communist sympathizers, but nowadays they're disillusioned Russophiles who believe that Russia holds some kind of a magic-light alternative to the Western civilization. Whatever their motivation is, they end up doing even more damage than bona-fide Russian "propacondoms", IMHO.

Of course, his "colleague" from this particular exchange is totally a Russian propagandist who's playing him like a flute. That colleague claimed that in Ukraine-governed parts of Donbas people aren't allowed to speak Russian. That's so overboard, it would be funny unless the 'language oppression" libel weren't used by the Russians to carry a genocidal war.

Here is an excellent and, more importantly, concise article from The Hill.

[URL]https://thehill.com/opinion/4855763-russia-ukraine-information-war/[/URL]

[B]Russia ramps up its information war against Ukraine, aiming to weaken Western support [/B]

[QUOTE]Russia is intensifying its information war against Ukraine just as its military losses soar and Ukrainian forces brazenly occupy Russian territories.

Western governments ignore these psychological operations, aimed at American and European audiences, at their peril. Their impact can weaken political, military and economic support for Kyiv just at a time when the war appears to be turning against Moscow.

Russia uses various methods to affect public opinion in the West. Financial contributions and media support help political parties and movements that favor Moscow. Propaganda and disinformation are aimed at leftists and rightists, populists and progressives, and ethnic majorities and minorities to distort reality and exacerbate divisions in Western societies.

Traditional media and social networks are involved through fake accounts, bots and trolls. Cyber hacking also interferes with Western elections, leaks confidential information and attacks critical infrastructure in targeted states.

Russian operatives have developed public organizations, NGOs and even churches to spread falsehoods that Moscows war against Ukraine was a necessary response to NATO provocations. In June 2023, French authorities discovered a large-scale disinformation campaign that included fake websites that simulated French media and government sites. The goal was to disseminate fake news directed against Ukraine.

In March 2024, the Kremlin accused Ukraine of involvement in the terrorist attack in the Krocus City Hall in Moscow. Anti-Ukrainian messages are also promoted in Russian outlets by favorably disposed Russian experts from universities, think tanks and the media. Pro-Russian Telegram channels and the Sputnik News Agency also create propaganda channels on platforms such as TikTok and YouTube.

Even Ukraines media have been infiltrated by pro-Moscow operatives. Before Russias annexation of Crimea in 2014, several branches of Russian media included outlets in Ukraine, such as RIA Novosti, Izvestia and Komsomolskaya Pravda. Some were closed and criminal proceedings were initiated against others, while a few continued their anti-Ukrainian disinformation work and suspected Russian subversion.

Several outlets formally cut their links with Russia, such as RBC-Ukraine, one of the countrys largest and most influential news agencies, but questions remain over its ownership and connections. Recent investigations have revealed that the ultimate owner of RBC-Ukraine is itself an anonymously owned offshore company in the British Virgin Islands, Thornley Investment LTD, which in the past might have been affiliated with a sister media outlet, RBC-Russia.

Following Russias full-scale invasion of Ukraine, the editorial team of RBC-Ukraine tried to pre-empt accusations about its Kremlin connections by publishing articles denouncing well-known personalities and companies in Ukraine as insufficiently patriotic and having secret ties with Moscow. But this looks like camouflage for its own opaque ownership structure.

Moscow-linked outlets are involved in purveying fake stories to discredit the Ukrainian government. One recent example that circulated widely in the West claimed that Olena Zelenska, President Volodymyr Zelenskys wife, purchased a $4.4 million Bugatti sports car with American taxpayer dollars. This fake report, which first appeared on an Instagram post, was fully debunked by the car manufacturer, who filed a criminal complaint for forgery and defamation.

The goal of such disinformation was to undercut U.S. support in arming Ukraine by painting the government in Kyiv as irredeemably corrupt. Although official corruption remains a persistent problem in some of Ukraines institutions, the current authorities are taking a tougher approach than all previous administrations and have sought American assistance to fight corruption.

As Ukraine regains the initiative in the war with increasing volumes of Western weapons, domestically produced missiles and drones, and fresh recruits, Kremlin propaganda is ramping up its information offensive. The aim is to promote disarray among Western leaders, limit assistance to Ukraine and push Kyiv toward a ceasefire in which it surrenders its occupied territories and abandons the areas it has seized inside Russia.

Amid an existential war against an imperialist aggressor, no part of the Ukrainian media should be permitted to maintain business links with Moscow and spread narratives scripted in the Kremlin.

Janusz Bugajski is a Senior Fellow at the Jamestown Foundation in Washington, D.C. His most recent book is Failed State: A Guide to Russias Rupture.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2941280]I can see this is emotionally very difficult for you. It is impossible to recognize when you're in, and a victim of, a religion or a cult until there is a catastrophic event that forces you awake. For eighty years the Russians have very effectively created the self actualizing myth about themselves. Russia can never be defeated in battle. [/QUOTE]This is an excellent analysis, but I'll argue that they've been at it much longer than 80 years. That "never-defeated" myth was circulated right before the 19th century Crimean War (in which Russia was defeated), 1905 Russo-Japanese war (in which Russia was defeated), The WW1 (in which Russia was defeated yet again with the most catastrophic consequences). The same delusion was flying high before the 1940 Winter War (in which Russia was thoroughly humiliated by tiny Finland) and the WW2 (in which Russia was ALMOST defeated and would've been if not for the unprecedented military and material support from the Land Lease). Of course, after Russia emerged victorious from the WW2, their extreme arrogance rebounded quite nicely, up until their defeats in the Afghan War and the First Chechnya War.

Russia has a very long history of self-delusion, as we can see, and it never ever learns.

[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2941437]You are the propagandist. You are posting or maybe "reposting" heavy handed lies and propaganda to this forum. The "event" your "friend" described to you is an invention.[/QUOTE]The "event" is consistent with reports from the press and NGO's before it became politically incorrect to criticize Ukraine:

[URL]https://www.hindustantimes.com/world-news/tortured-and-a-kidney-lost-life-in-ukraine-s-illegal-secret-prisons/story-2lhm82qnBLniFYhwkFIRbK.html[/URL]

[URL]https://www.hrw.org/news/2018/03/19/ukraine-justice-needed-former-secret-prison-detainees[/URL]

[URL]https://www.thetimes.com/world/article/kiev-allows-torture-and-runs-secret-jails-says-un-vwlcrpsjn[/URL]

[URL]https://www.voanews.com/a/watchdogs-civilians-detained-tortured-in-ukraine/3428561.html[/URL]

[URL]https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/08/29/human-rights-groups-sound-alarm-on-secret-detentions-in-ukraine/[/URL]

[URL]https://www.amnesty.org/en/documents/eur50/4455/2016/en/[/URL]

Yeah, Russia may have kicked this off, but Ukraine's treatment of civilians in the eastern part of the country hasn't been anything to brag about either. Undoubtedly some people in the Donbas who were publicly pro-Russian had a difficult time with the Ukrainian authorities and vice versa.

I'm just repeating what was passed on to me. And I believe it.

[QUOTE=VinDici;2941321]What are you talking about?

Russians have attacked civilians, tortured soldiers, raped the populace and kidnapped the children. The orcs haven't had a democratic election in decades and you talk about Ukrainians with absolutely no evidence, and on top accuse others of lacking debate skills?

There is no debating someone who accuses one side of atrocities, yet is completely blind to the exponentially worse things that his own paymasters are doing.

All of your talk here is completely disingenuous and trolling. Look within and take some time to reflect.[/QUOTE]First of all, this is a war, a savage, brutal needless war that should have never taken place. I'm sure the Russians have committed atrocities and war crimes, just like the AFU have. And I condemn both. So for you to say I condone Russian war crimes is completely false.

As for the corrupt actor, his term expired earlier this year. He has run away from holding elections like the coward that he is. Countries have held elections during war time, so don't give me that argument. And I have never praised Russia for being a shining democracy either.

[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2941400]The Kursk invasion is clearly unnerving to Russian propagandists.[/QUOTE]You have zero understanding about what is happening on the battlefield. Stick to punting. And if you get the chance, pay attention to what is happening in Donetsk. And you might want to read this article from the BBC, which is an extremely dishonest pro Ukrainian 'news' source.

I'm not the kind of guy to say I told you so, but I told you so!

[URL]https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c984g10e22lo[/URL]

Critics in Kyiv fear that the country's military has made a serious miscalculation.

By sending troops into Kursk instead of reinforcing the eastern frontline, the military has left Pokrovsk and other important Ukrainian towns exposed, these critics say.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2941489]You have zero understanding about what is happening on the battlefield. Stick to punting. And if you get the chance...[/QUOTE]Cognitive dissonance is typically experienced as psychological stress. That's what you are experiencing. Your deep, long held belief / faith in the might and superiority of the Russian army is distressingly challenged by the invasion of Kursk oblast. I mean, obviously, the Russian cause is just! The Russian army is mighty and indomitable! How can it be that these inferior Ukranians have been be on sacred Russian soil for a month? Why haven't they been humiliated and expelled?

These internal inconsistencies cause you stress. Hence, you have to create narratives to reduce the internal pain. It may comfort you that this phenomenon, cognitive dissonance, has been well understood for almost 70 years. As I wrote previously, the best short term therapy is probably deep breathing...not much else you can do that will alleviate your pain.

[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2941495]Cognitive dissonance is typically experienced as psychological stress. That's what you are experiencing. Your deep, long held belief / faith in the might and superiority of the Russian army is distressingly challenged by the invasion of Kursk oblast. I mean, obviously, the Russian cause is just! The Russian army is mighty and indomitable! How can it be that these inferior Ukranians have been be on sacred Russian soil for a month? Why haven't they been humiliated and expelled?

These internal inconsistencies cause you stress. Hence, you have to create narratives to reduce the internal pain. It may comfort you that this phenomenon, cognitive dissonance, has been well understood for almost 70 years. As I wrote previously, the best short term therapy is probably deep breathing...not much else you can do that will alleviate your pain.[/QUOTE]You have zero understanding of what is going on at the battlefields and that's why you post nonsense. Stick to punting. The events on the battlefield will unfold on their own and the reality will be before everyone in the future, no one has to take my word or anyone else's for that matter.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2941488]As for the corrupt actor, his term expired earlier this year. He has run away from holding elections like the coward that he is. Countries have held elections during war time, so don't give me that argument. And I have never praised Russia for being a shining democracy either.[/QUOTE]Again, dodging the reality of the Orc regime and focusing on UA.

You can't talk about democracy when you haven't experienced it.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2941515]You have zero understanding of what is going on at the battlefields and that's why you post nonsense. Stick to punting. The events on the battlefield will unfold on their own and the reality will be before everyone in the future, no one has to take my word or anyone else's for that matter.[/QUOTE]Sorry, I was just trying to help you through this. I hope you feel better.

[QUOTE=VinDici;2941610]Again, dodging the reality of the Orc regime and focusing on UA.

You can't talk about democracy when you haven't experienced it.[/QUOTE]I didn't talk about democracy, you did. Fact of the matter is that Ukraine isn't the shining example of democracy that it claims to be, it is anything but that.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2941694]I didn't talk about democracy, you did. Fact of the matter is that Ukraine isn't the shining example of democracy that it claims to be, it is anything but that.[/QUOTE]You are constantly harping on about the current political situation in Ukraine, which is in a state of war, I'll remind you that the European democracies didn't have elections during wartime either, for the exact same reasons. Meanwhile you hold up the Orcs are paragons of reasonableness. Deal with your own hypocrisy first before weighing in here.

Completely unhinged.

[QUOTE=VinDici;2941776]You are constantly harping on about the current political situation in Ukraine, which is in a state of war, I'll remind you that the European democracies didn't have elections during wartime either, for the exact same reasons. Meanwhile you hold up the Orcs are paragons of reasonableness. Deal with your own hypocrisy first before weighing in here.

Completely unhinged.[/QUOTE]You obviously are unaware of the fact that many countries have held elections while at war.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2941837]You obviously are unaware of the fact that many countries have held elections while at war.[/QUOTE]Who are these countries and when did they do it?

UK didn't have elections during WW2 for example, and for good reason.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2941837]You obviously are unaware of the fact that many countries have held elections while at war.[/QUOTE]Why don't you name countries that have gone through general elections while the enemy troops were occupying huge chunks of their territory?

[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2941280]I can see this is emotionally very difficult for you. It is impossible to recognize when you're in, and a victim of, a religion or a cult until there is a catastrophic event that forces you awake. For eighty years the Russians have very effectively created the self actualizing myth about themselves. Russia can never be defeated in battle. The Russian people are strong. We Russians single handedly defeated the Nazis. Our great grandfathers were heroes who nobly sacrificed themselves for the Motherland. We were the heroes of WWII. Russian soldiers are strong. The Russian army is the greatest in the world. We are great, we are powerful -- and yet we are victims! The West is evil and conspires against us. Ukraine (and Lithuania, Estonia, Latvia and Finland) is (are) a weak and degenerate country ruled by nazis. And Ukraine is not a real country anyway. Ukranians are slavs like us, but not exactly like us since they are stupid, craven and weak, and needless to say we will defeat them in a week. By right and history Ukraine is part of Russia. The Ukranians will welcome us as liberators! Crimea is an integral part of Russia. Russia is a mighty country and no one can defeat us, and blah blah blah.

It is all a pack of lies. Russians have been fed disinformation, propaganda, bullshit and lies for eighty years. Surely, on some level (and having access to news from around the world), you must realize that you have been fed a bowlful of total bullshit for your entire life. The truth is Russia did not wage a noble war in WWII -- it was a vile war of territorial aggrandizement, which oppressed and terrorized free people for the subsequent forty years. In 1992, Russia lost 40% of its GDP and manufacturing base when Ukraine left...and that's exactly what you're fighting against now. Russia is not great. It is not powerful. Its GDP is the same as Mexico's. You have a rotting, corrupt, incompetent armed forces with rotting planes, ships and missiles, manned by alcoholics, prisioners and conscripts. Mexico could beat Russia.

Okay, mister all wise, super experienced, military guy. Let's make a bet. When are the Russians going to kick the Ukranians out of Kursk? A week, a month, a year? When? Place your bet. As I said in the first sentence, I know this is hard for you. Tell me, when you see videos of the M1126 ICV's just f!cking ravaging behind your lines, what does that make you feel? Does it make you confident in the power and might of the Russian army. Or maybe, do you feel the teeny tiniest bit of doubt?[/QUOTE]The Russians I know are decent people.

I don't believe you and other esteemed posters are cult members. But if you want to make that analogy, then those who've been continually proclaiming since the end of 2022 that Ukraine was on the cusp of driving the Russians back to pre-2014 territorial boundaries sound a bit like some of the fundamentalist Christians who believe the end times are always just around the corner. Ukraine will not win this war, because NATO countries will not provide the men, munitions and materials to get the job done. Unless their leaders are nuts. We do not want to see the USA, Britain, France and Russia engaged in all out war.

In the meantime, hundreds of thousands, Ukrainians and Russians, have continued to die, and Ukraine's negotiating strength has diminished.

What the hell do the west and the Ukrainian government want? Masada or the Alamo on a massive scale? A fight to the last Ukrainian? That's just sad.

What I'm reading in mainstream publications, like the NYT and the Economist, would indicate Ukraine's recent setbacks in the Donbas will be far more important to the outcome of this war than the occupation of part of the Kursk oblast.

[QUOTE=VinDici;2941895]Who are these countries and when did they do it?[/QUOTE]You're kidding, right?

[QUOTE=Xpartan;2941908]Why don't you name countries that have gone through general elections while the enemy troops were occupying huge chunks of their territory?[/QUOTE]

That's not what he said. But Cyprus, the Republic of China, South Korea and Ireland come to mind.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2942007]The Russians I know are decent people...[/QUOTE]Could be true, but the Russian Empire has maintained itself and prospered by oppressing its own and conquered peoples for over five hundred years. This is a war of territorial aggrandizement. If you or the decent Russians are concerned about Ukranian lives, then simply end the war by withdrawing to internationally recognized borders.

[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2942015]If you or the decent Russians are concerned about Ukranian lives, then simply end the war by withdrawing to internationally recognized borders.[/QUOTE]Please gentlemen, neither the Russians I know, nor Blood Red, Questner, DramaFree, Elvis or I have any control whatsoever over Russian leaders or the Russian military. Please try not to lose your grip on reality.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2942007]

What the hell do the west and the Ukrainian government want? Masada or the Alamo on a massive scale? A fight to the last Ukrainian? That's just sad.

.[/QUOTE]Llyod Austin, the American Defense Secretary answered this question over 2 years ago, but I think none of the Pro Ukrainians paid attention. He said and I repeat, the goal of the United States aka NATO aka the collective West was to make Russia weak. He said nothing about Ukraine winning. He knows Ukraine cannot win.

They do not give a shit about the fact that Ukraine is getting completely wrecked. They do not care that entire generations in Ukraine are getting wiped out. They do not care that Ukraine is undergoing a demographic death. As long as Russia bleeds and they get their lucrative reconstruction contracts (Blackrock) and as long as European and Americans don't die, it's all good. Like I said many times before, these people are pure evil, and I hope God never forgives them.

[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2942015]Could be true, but the Russian Empire has maintained itself and prospered by oppressing its own and conquered peoples for over five hundred years. This is a war of territorial aggrandizement. If you or the decent Russians are concerned about Ukranian lives, then simply end the war by withdrawing to internationally recognized borders.[/QUOTE]While you're at it, please ask the Turks to withdraw from Cyprus, the Israelis from Palestine, the Americans from Syria. For starters.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2942079]While you're at it, please ask the Turks to withdraw from Cyprus, the Israelis from Palestine, the Americans from Syria. For starters.[/QUOTE]Completely irrelevant. You are rabidly supporting the Orcs, whilst ignoring basic sense.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2942078]as long as European and Americans don't die, it's all good.[/QUOTE]If Ukraine loses, Europeans and Americans will die in the next conflict which the Orcs will definitely initiate.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2942017]Please gentlemen, neither the Russians I know, nor Blood Red, Questner, DramaFree, Elvis or I have any control whatsoever over Russian leaders or the Russian military. Please try not to lose your grip on reality.[/QUOTE]Ukraine is winning. That's their grip on reality.

The elections in Kursk region to elect a governor to start on September 8, 2024. I have an explanation on what has led to the events, but won't post it. It will take time until everything will be clear and there are reasons for it, and you can get an answer on a probability scale, but anyway it only accelerates the collapse of the junta in Kiev.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2942017]Please gentlemen, neither the Russians I know, nor Blood Red, Questner, DramaFree, Elvis or I have any control whatsoever over Russian leaders or the Russian military. Please try not to lose your grip on reality.[/QUOTE]It's telling that you've finally found yourself in the eclectic group of propagandists, war mongers, and useful idiots supporting the Russian genocidal war effort.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2942011]You're kidding, right?

That's not what he said. [/QUOTE]I thought we were talking about Ukraine in this forum. Why even mention any elections anywhere in the world if they have no relevance to the current situation in Ukraine?

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2942011]But Cyprus, the Republic of China, South Korea and Ireland come to mind. [/QUOTE]Really? When did these elections take place?

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2942078]Llyod Austin, the American Defense Secretary answered this question over 2 years ago, but I think none of the Pro Ukrainians paid attention. He said and I repeat, the goal of the United States aka NATO aka the collective West was to make Russia weak. He said nothing about Ukraine winning. He knows Ukraine cannot win.[/QUOTE]This stuff can backfire. Look at American support for the Mujahideen during the strife between the USSR and Afghanistan. I don't know the history of that very well, but suspect the USA was arming some of the same people that it fought years later. So then in retaliation the USSR or Russia supports U.S. enemies, and it just escalates.

It's nuts. When I was a kid, I loved James Bond movies. And my favorites were when the USSR or Russia and MI6 and the CIA were working together to battle criminal masterminds looking to destroy humanity. That's the way it should be, with Russia, NATO and Ukraine all on the same page. There was an opportunity for that to happen back in the 1990's. And perhaps again when Trump was president. What others call ass kissing, I call smart diplomacy. Trump had some huge failings, but breaking away from the neoconservative agenda was not one of them.

Well, maybe someday.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2942127]Ukraine is winning. That's their grip on reality.[/QUOTE]Ukraine is not winning yet. But Russia's already lost.

Over 1,200 square kilometers of Kursk Region and 100 settlements taken in 3 weeks!

Where is a guerilla war? Where are Molotov cocktails? Where are skirmishes? There are none.

Russian marauders are looting stores and homes in Kursk, while the AFU are supplying the populace with food and basic needs items.

Russian civilians are greeting AFU as liberators, speaking Ukrainian, wishing them luck, and yelling Glory to Ukraine.

What a country!

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2942253]This stuff can backfire. Look at USA Support for the Mujahideen during the strife between the USSR and Afghanistan. I don't know the history of that very well, but suspect the USA was arming some of the same people that it fought years later. So then in retaliation the USSR or Russia supports USA Enemies, and it just escalates. It's nuts. When I was a kid, I loved James Bond movies. And my favorites were when the USSR or Russia and MI6 and the CIA were working together to battle criminal masterminds looking to destroy humanity. That's the way it should be, with Russia, NATO and Ukraine all on the same page. There was an opportunity for that to happen back in the 1990's. And perhaps again when Trump was president. What others call ass kissing, I call smart diplomacy. Trump had some huge failings, but breaking away from the neoconservative agenda was not one of them.

Well, maybe someday.[/QUOTE]Jesus Christ, you're a child!

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2942253]There was an opportunity for that to happen back in the 1990's. [/QUOTE]I agree that there was a missed opportunity here before a KGB agent became president, once a KGB agent was elevated to president, that window was closed permanently.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2942253]And perhaps again when Trump was president. What others call ass kissing, I call smart diplomacy. Trump had some huge failings, but breaking away from the neoconservative agenda was not one of them.

Well, maybe someday.[/QUOTE]Trump is a Russian client, so if by reset of relations you mean that Russia gets carte blanche to do what it always has done, then sure, but no one in Europe wants that.

[QUOTE=VinDici;2942125]If Ukraine loses, Europeans and Americans will die in the next conflict which the Orcs will definitely initiate.[/QUOTE]That's another lie that gullible people like you swallow. Russia has no interest in attacking any European country and it won't. The Ukraine NATO issue was a red line and it was clearly communicated since 2008 and was ignored.

[QUOTE=VinDici;2942124]Completely irrelevant. You are rabidly supporting the Orcs, whilst ignoring basic sense.[/QUOTE]Yes, I am on Russia's side against NATO. This is a war between Russia and NATO. NATO is pure evil. It is not a defensive alliance. It is an imperialistic offensive alliance which has caused destruction everywhere it has gone in the last few decades (Yugoslavia, Iraq, Libya, Yemen, Syria and now Ukraine).

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2942253]This stuff can backfire. Look at American support for the Mujahideen during the strife between the USSR and Afghanistan. I don't know the history of that very well, but suspect the USA was arming some of the same people that it fought years later. So then in retaliation the USSR or Russia supports U.S. enemies, and it just escalates.

.[/QUOTE]American hypocrisy knows no limits. America armed and funded and trained Al Qaida in the 80's against the Russians. Ronald Reagon compared them to America's founding Fathers when they visited the White House in the 80's. They were the good guys back then, Bin Ladin and co. And then they became terrorists in the 90's and onwards.

And you are absolutely right. Just like America can arm and use Ukraine as a proxy against Russia, Russia can do the same in latin America, in the middle east and in Africa, and it is already happening.

[QUOTE=Xpartan;2942254]Ukraine is not winning yet. But Russia's already lost.

Over 1,200 square kilometers of Kursk Region and 100 settlements taken in 3 weeks!

Where is a guerilla war? Where are Molotov cocktails? Where are skirmishes? There are none.

Russian marauders are looting stores and homes in Kursk, while the AFU are supplying the populace with food and basic needs items.

Russian civilians are greeting AFU as liberators, speaking Ukrainian, wishing them luck, and yelling Glory to Ukraine.

What a country![/QUOTE]Pay attention to what is happening in the Donbas, where the war is being fought. You can enjoy the Kursk PR stunt while it lasts. The Bandera terrorists there will all the killed, make no mistake about it.

And yes, I know what your off ramp will be once Ukraine loses the war. It will be go something like this, try not to laugh folks but I guarantee it will look like this: Russia lost because Ukraine still exists as a country, because they didn't take Kiev. It won't matter to them that Russia will probably take all of what is east of the Dniper plus Odessa. This will be their off ramp. Russia has already lost. Yeah. LOL. I can't believe such delusional people exist. Or stupid. Take your pick. I think it's a combo of both to be honest.

[QUOTE=Xpartan;2942255]Jesus Christ, you're a child![/QUOTE]That's a low blow. You have no basis for your accusation. I am an adult and at least 18 years of age. I have not violated the terms of service of The International Sex Guide.

[QUOTE=Xpartan;2942254]Russian civilians are greeting AFU as liberators, speaking Ukrainian, wishing them luck, and yelling Glory to Ukraine.[/QUOTE]

Sure they are

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2942513]That's a low blow. You have no basis for your accusation. I am an adult and at least 18 years of age. I have not violated the terms of service of The International Sex Guide.



Sure they are[/QUOTE]Of course they are. Don't forget: Ukraine is winning.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2942512]Pay attention to what is happening in the Donbas, where the war is being fought. You can enjoy the Kursk PR stunt while it lasts. The Bandera terrorists there will all the killed, make no mistake about it.

And yes, I know what your off ramp will be once Ukraine loses the war. It will be go something like this, try not to laugh folks but I guarantee it will look like this: Russia lost because Ukraine still exists as a country, because they didn't take Kiev. It won't matter to them that Russia will probably take all of what is east of the Dniper plus Odessa. This will be their off ramp. Russia has already lost. Yeah. LOL. I can't believe such delusional people exist. Or stupid. Take your pick. I think it's a combo of both to be honest.[/QUOTE]XMan does not deal in reality, he lives in a liberal fantasy world. Ukraine is getting their ass kicked.

How Ukraine army keeps going I have no idea. I give the Ukraine army credit, but you have to ask is it worth it, they are slowly getting destroyed.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2942512]Pay attention to what is happening in the Donbas, where the war is being fought. You can enjoy the Kursk PR stunt while it lasts. The Bandera terrorists there will all the killed, make no mistake about it.[/QUOTE]My dear, the war is being fought on 600+ miles of the frontline, but I am paying attention to Donbas. My understanding is that Putin's advance has slowed down there, no? What's your latest (as of today, not a week ago)?

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2942513]That's a low blow. You have no basis for your accusation. I am an adult and at least 18 years of age. I have not violated the terms of service of The International Sex Guide.[/QUOTE]Well, Kumbaya then.

Like I said: Ukraine isn't winning yet, but Russia has already lost.

Paul Schwennesen.

[B]A front-line report from the Kursk offensive reveals that in the battle for hearts and minds, Ukraines resolve outpaces Russias crumbling morale, signaling an inevitable conclusion.[/B]

[URL]https://reason.com/2024/09/05/the-war-in-ukraine-is-already-over-russia-just-doesnt-know-it-yet[/URL]

[QUOTE]Wars end long before armistices are signed. A war's end, after all, is a matter of will, of spiritand popular will is only haltingly, grudgingly reflected in the political machinery of peace talks.

Though it may seem astonishingly premature to say so, my impression after returning from the Russian front is that the war in Ukraine is over and that the powers that be haven't realized it yet. In the Kursk salient, at least, I can personally attest to the eerie, almost surreal inversion of spirits between the people of Ukraine and Russia. The moral scales have now firmly settled on the side of the Ukrainian defenders, and it is far likelier that Russia itself splinters into its constituent republics than that Ukraine falls to its erstwhile invaders.

[b]I was in Irpin and Bucha nearly three years ago, while they were still smoldering from Russian occupation. The mood then, as we pulled burned bodies with bound hands from the tree lines, was a tragedy-enforced grim determination. Evidence of Ukrainian resistance was everywhere: crates of Molotov cocktails on street corners, invective-laced messages scrawled on storefronts, spent shell casings piled behind makeshift barriers against the intrudersall of it unequivocally pointing to a deep-seated resolve. .[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Xpartan;2942657]My dear, the war is being fought on 600+ miles of the frontline, but I am paying attention to Donbas. My understanding is that Putin's advance has slowed down there, no? What's your latest (as of today, not a week ago)?

[/QUOTE]As usual, your understanding is shit. I will point you to an extremely biased PRO UKRAINIAN source, the New York Times. Even they are admitting that due to the Kursk incursion, Ukraine diverted some of their best battle-hardened troops from the Donbas and to Kursk. That is the reason the Russians are making faster advances there than they have been for the past 3 months. If anything has slowed down, it is the Kursk advance. Try to keep up and don't mix things up. But that is easy to do I guess when you have zero understanding about what is happening on the ground.

[QUOTE=DramaFree11;2942639]XMan does not deal in reality, he lives in a liberal fantasy world. Ukraine is getting their ass kicked.

How Ukraine army keeps going I have no idea. I give the Ukraine army credit, but you have to ask is it worth it, they are slowly getting destroyed.[/QUOTE]I'll be the first one to give the AFU credit, they are fierce warriors, no denying that. But they are fighting a war they just cannot win, and yes, they will end up getting destroyed and Ukraine will become a dysfunctional, rump state. Yes, it will still exist on the map and that will be the off ramp for NATO and the pro Ukrainian tools here, that Ukraine still exists and Putin didn't succeed in his goal to take ALL of Ukraine (he has never wanted to do that, he is just interested in what is east of the Dniper + Odessa, historically Russian regions) and hence Russia lost. Pathetic and comical really.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2942675]As usual, your understanding is shit...But that is easy to do I guess when you have zero understanding about what is happening on the ground.[/QUOTE] FYI, an ad hominem is a hallmark of a losing argument. I don't know what you're getting out of this but, as I wrote previously, you should try to imagine Russian defeat. Answer me this, when you see videos of the Marder and Bradley IFVs just savaging around in the sacred Russian motherland, what do you feel?

[QUOTE=Xpartan;2942662]Like I said: Ukraine isn't winning yet, but Russia has already lost.

Paul Schwennesen.

[B]A front-line report from the Kursk offensive reveals that in the battle for hearts and minds, Ukraines resolve outpaces Russias crumbling morale, signaling an inevitable conclusion.[/B]

[URL]https://reason.com/2024/09/05/the-war-in-ukraine-is-already-over-russia-just-doesnt-know-it-yet[/URL][/QUOTE]I don't know if it were the mods who cut it down or something else happened, but if it were the mods, I'd like to emphasize that by cutting it after the first paragraph, you totally erased the message. Yes, I do understand that people can click on the link, but we all know they rarely do.

Whether my post got botched accidentally or if the mods found it too long, I'm cutting it further for the most important parts.

[QUOTE]I was in Irpin and Bucha nearly three years ago, while they were still smoldering from Russian occupation. The mood then, as we pulled burned bodies with bound hands from the tree lines, was a tragedy-enforced grim determination. Evidence of Ukrainian resistance was everywhere: crates of Molotov cocktails on street corners, invective-laced messages scrawled on storefronts, spent shell casings piled behind makeshift barriers against the intrudersall of it unequivocally pointing to a deep-seated resolve.

In Russia today, it is entirely differentit is a moral vacuum. Its citizens in Kursk fled the Ukrainian advance like smoke in the wind, leaving homes and possessions without so much as a whimper. I saw exactly one makeshift roadblock, consisting of a few chairs and a rake. Russian civil resistance is (or was) desultory at best. The comparison is stark: Despite Russia's enormous advantages in mass and material, the will to fight is fundamentally absent.

Ukrainian morale, meanwhile, is topping the chartsbordering on euphoria even. A fervent passion for taking the fight to their enemies has infected the front and operations are conducted amid a general scrum of units desperate to be part of the action... In Russia, there is silence. Of the tiny handful of remaining civilians in the Kursk area, some eagerly interact with the occupiers while the rest furtively attend to their habitual routines.

The action in Kursk is a reminder to Westerners that the Russian behemoth is far from a monolithic, integrated federation. It is instead a tentative, demoralized, loosely adhered tissue of a nation, held together primarily through fear and learned dependence on the state. Separatist sentiment, never fully extinguished, is rising rapidly in regions like Chechnya and Karelia and across some 85 other autonomous regions spanning 11 time zones, most of which have long traditions of independence.

Leo Tolstoy famously wrote of the Russian army: "This horde is not an army because it possesses neither any real loyalty to faith, tsar and fatherlandwords that have been so much misused!nor valour, nor military dignity. All it possesses are, on the one hand, passive patience and repressed discontent, and on the other, cruelty, servitude and corruption." Things have not appreciably improved since.

Russia's incursion into Ukraine has simply run out of moral impetus. It has the resources, of course, to engage in a substantial amount of lingering mayhem. No doubt it will. But the Ukrainians I've met simply cannot envisage a scenario in which they lose. They are prepared to fight in the streets to the last man, and their commitment to freedom is overwhelming. In contrast to the current Russian mood, which seems largely to be one of confused apathy, Ukrainians have the decided advantage.

Wars are won in the heart of a people, not through the rational calculations of military planners. While there is momentum left in the Russian war machine, it is only a matter of time before reality sinks in that the Russian heart is not in this fight. Whether the war ends in the shattering of its fragile federation or in some half-hearted armistice measures to mitigate its appalling losses, Russia simply cannot go on. The Kursk offensive, for all its complexities and contradictions, has, if nothing else, opened a clear window into the popular wills of each side.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=DramaFree11;2942639]XMan does not deal in reality, he lives in a liberal fantasy world. Ukraine is getting their ass kicked.

How Ukraine army keeps going I have no idea. I give the Ukraine army credit, but you have to ask is it worth it, they are slowly getting destroyed.[/QUOTE]The irony here.

AFU looting stores are on security cameras and AFU shooting and killing civilians are on dash cameras. I can post links. Unfortunately reliable. Few that were left behind are mostly elderly, disabled and bed patients. It takes 5-6 volunteers to take them out to safety one by one through wooded areas. The other task is to untie pets and safe livestock. This is one of the reasons why a broader operation has not been taken yet.

As for arming civilians, Ukraine had disastrous outcome with arming territorial defense, which was wiped out in numbers at the outset of the SMO.

[QUOTE=Questner;2942738]AFU looting stores are on security cameras and AFU shooting and killing civilians are on dash cameras. I can post links. Unfortunately reliable. Few that were left behind are mostly elderly, disabled and bed patients. It takes 5-6 volunteers to take them out to safety one by one through wooded areas. The other task is to untie pets and safe livestock. This is one of the reasons why a broader operation has not been taken yet.

As for arming civilians, Ukraine had disastrous outcome with arming territorial defense, which was wiped out in numbers at the outset of the SMO.[/QUOTE]How can you tell an Orc is lying? His lips are moving.

[QUOTE=Questner;2942738]... I can post links...[/QUOTE]Okay, post the links. This is paid Russian disinformation. It continues to amaze me that their efforts extend to an obscure forum like this one.

[QUOTE=Xpartan;2942242]I thought we were talking about Ukraine in this forum. Why even mention any elections anywhere in the world if they have no relevance to the current situation in Ukraine?

Really? When did these elections take place?[/QUOTE]This is the question you posed:

[QUOTE=Xpartan;2941908]Why don't you name countries that have gone through general elections while the enemy troops were occupying huge chunks of their territory?[/QUOTE]Well, I guess I could have replied in the Cyprus, Korea, China, Taiwan and Ireland threads and PM'ed you, but that wouldn't make much sense.

Free elections in Cyprus and South Korea proceeded when Turks, North Koreans and Chinese were actively fighting and have proceeded to this day. Lots and lots of elections (one party elections in PRC) occur in Taiwan and the PRC, and each claims the other is occupying its territory. The PRC is occupying a huge chunk of territory claimed by Taiwan. I believe Ireland claimed Northern Ireland until about 1999, and there were many free elections in Ireland.

Thanks for the Reason link. As you'd suspect, I often take what they publish seriously. In this instance I believe the writer is a bit over the top. As to some Russians leaving Kursk is it because they don't want to live under Ukrainian rule? And as to some Ukrainians staying put in Donbas, is it because they prefer Russian rule?

[QUOTE=Xpartan;2942703]I don't know if it were the mods who cut it down or something else happened[/QUOTE]It was probably you just being you (a dumbass).

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2942891]This is the question you posed:

Well, I guess I could have replied in the Cyprus, Korea, China, Taiwan and Ireland threads and PM'ed you, but that wouldn't make much sense.

Free elections in Cyprus and South Korea proceeded when Turks, North Koreans and Chinese were actively fighting and have proceeded to this day. Lots and lots of elections (one party elections in PRC) occur in Taiwan and the PRC, and each claims the other is occupying its territory. The PRC is occupying a huge chunk of territory claimed by Taiwan. I believe Ireland claimed Northern Ireland until about 1999, and there were many free elections in Ireland.[/QUOTE]Were there active wars raging while they held elections in these countries? Were situations in this countries even remotely comparable to the current situation in Ukraine? Or is it just you sharpening your sophistry skills?

And thank you for including such beacons of democracy as North Korea ad China. Nice touch.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2942891]Thanks for the Reason link. As you'd suspect, I often take what they publish seriously. In this instance I believe the writer is a bit over the top.[/QUOTE]Of course, he does. Good thing, Blood Red isn't.

[QUOTE=Questner;2942738]AFU looting stores are on security cameras and AFU shooting and killing civilians are on dash cameras. I can post links. Unfortunately [b]reliable[/b].[/QUOTE]Pretty please, with cherry on top, LOL.

[QUOTE=Xpartan;2942657]My dear, the war is being fought on 600+ miles of the frontline, but I am paying attention to Donbas. My understanding is that Putin's advance has slowed down there, no? What's your latest (as of today, not a week ago)?[/QUOTE]Still waiting for your response. Why the delay?

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2942896]It was probably you just being you (a dumbass).[/QUOTE]Even more reasons to educate me. How are things around Pokrovsk (again -- today, not a week ago)?

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2942891]Free elections in Cyprus and South Korea proceeded when Turks, North Koreans and Chinese were actively fighting and have proceeded to this day. Lots and lots of elections (one party elections in PRC) occur in Taiwan and the PRC, and each claims the other is occupying its territory. The PRC is occupying a huge chunk of territory claimed by Taiwan. I believe Ireland claimed Northern Ireland until about 1999, and there were many free elections in Ireland.

Thanks for the Reason link. As you'd suspect, I often take what they publish seriously. In this instance I believe the writer is a bit over the top. As to some Russians leaving Kursk is it because they don't want to live under Ukrainian rule? And as to some Ukrainians staying put in Donbas, is it because they prefer Russian rule?[/QUOTE]They did not have free elections while there was a full on kinetic war going on. Also, don't use dictatorships as examples, since they are not "free" elections, e. G. PRC or Mordor. Do you have any other examples?

As for people staying put, they may not have anywhere else to go, it cannot be concluded that they love the Orcs and want them to rule over them, steal their kids and rape their women.

As for Russians leaving Kursk, if a full on kinetic war is coming to your doorstep and you have the Orcs sending missiles willy nilly without caring about civilian casualties, it might be a good idea to relocate if you have the opportunity.

[QUOTE=Xpartan;2942917]Still waiting for your response. Why the delay?

Even more reasons to educate me. How are things around Pokrovsk (again -- today, not a week ago)?[/QUOTE]It's a very difficult situation for AFU in the Donbas at the moment, in particular around Pokrovsk and Ugledar, plus Toretsk. Pokrovsk will fall no doubt, wait for it.

[QUOTE=VinDici;2942997]They did not have free elections while there was a full on kinetic war going on. Also, don't use dictatorships as examples, since they are not "free" elections, e. G. PRC or Mordor. Do you have any other examples?[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Xpartan;2942914]Were there active wars raging while they held elections in these countries? Were situations in this countries even remotely comparable to the current situation in Ukraine? Or is it just you sharpening your sophistry skills?

And thank you for including such beacons of democracy as North Korea ad China. Nice touch.

Of course, he does. Good thing, Blood Red isn't.[/QUOTE]Yes, wars were ongoing when Greek Cyprus and South Korea held free elections. In my first post on this subject, I only mentioned the Republic of China (Taiwan), which admittedly might not have been a democracy at the time fighting was occuring, and later pointed out the PRC held one party elections. And never held up North Korea as an example. I said North Korea was occupying land claimed by South Korea, during the Korean war and afterwards.

The fighting has stopped, but I don't think you can argue that Taiwan isn't a democracy, and doesn't officially claim the Chinese mainland.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2943061]Yes, wars were ongoing when Greek Cyprus and South Korea held free elections. In my first post on this subject, I only mentioned the Republic of China (Taiwan), which admittedly might not have been a democracy at the time fighting was occuring, and later pointed out the PRC held one party elections. And never held up North Korea as an example. I said North Korea was occupying land claimed by South Korea, during the Korean war and afterwards.

The fighting has stopped, but I don't think you can argue that Taiwan isn't a democracy, and doesn't officially claim the Chinese mainland.[/QUOTE]None of these were fighting kinetic wars at the time.

Cyprus is a sovereign nation so there was no kinetic war in Greece, nor Turkey at the time of elections.

You have no examples, because in general Nations don't have elections during war, they have bigger fish to fry.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2943061]Yes, wars were ongoing when Greek Cyprus and South Korea held free elections. In my first post on this subject, I only mentioned the Republic of China (Taiwan), which admittedly might not have been a democracy at the time fighting was occuring, and later pointed out the PRC held one party elections. And never held up North Korea as an example. I said North Korea was occupying land claimed by South Korea, during the Korean war and afterwards.

The fighting has stopped, but I don't think you can argue that Taiwan isn't a democracy, and doesn't officially claim the Chinese mainland.[/QUOTE]It is, but it wasn't a democracy until the 80's. Neither was South Korea. When, in what years, did these elections take place?

I also read up on Cyprus and didn't find any mentioning of any elections during the Turkish invasion (until 1974 when the ceasefire was signed). So please explain what you mean.

[QUOTE=Xpartan;2943204]It is, but it wasn't a democracy until the 80's. Neither was South Korea. When, in what years, did these elections take place?

I also read up on Cyprus and didn't find any mentioning of any elections during the Turkish invasion (until 1974 when the ceasefire was signed). So please explain what you mean.[/QUOTE]You can debate whether the 1952 presidential election in South Korea was free and fair. I think Syngman Rhee probably did legitimately win the election, although the way he got the constitution modified so he could run again in the first place wasn't exactly democratic. The numerous local, regional and parliamentary elections held in 1952 probably were free and fair.

You're right about Cyprus. The Turkish incursion didn't take very long, and occurred between elections.

You kind of moved the goal posts, as initially you only asked us to name countries where enemy troops were occupying large chunks of territory. You didn't say at first there had to be ongoing fighting.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2943058]... Pokrovsk will fall no doubt, wait for it.[/QUOTE]How is this prediction aging?

[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2943374]How is this prediction aging?[/QUOTE]You're an idiot that has zero understanding of battle. Check how long it took for Soledar to fall, and then Bakhmut, and then Avdivka. These were / are all heavily fortified cities, like Pokrovsk. I didn't give a time line but as I said, Pokrovsk will fall. This is a war of attrition. Stuff you do not understand. Stick to punting.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2943347]

You kind of moved the goal posts, as initially you only asked us to name countries where enemy troops were occupying large chunks of territory. You didn't say at first there had to be ongoing fighting.[/QUOTE]Of course he did. I had just said that 'countries have held elections during wartime'. Which is a fact. Another fact is that Zelensky's mandate expired a while back. Now he is nothing more than a dictator. The latest purge and shakeup of his cabinet is further proof because now more of his cronies will get the top posts. His end will be similar to Ashaf Ghani's. Then I wonder what all the fools that consider that corrupt clown a hero will say.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2943347]You kind of moved the goal posts, as initially you only asked us to name countries where enemy troops were occupying large chunks of territory. You didn't say at first there had to be ongoing fighting.[/QUOTE]You implied that it is normal for countries to have elections while fighting wars, but could not even find one example that is similar to the situation in Ukraine.

During kinetic wars, countries don't have elections, so stop pushing the Orc narratives direct from the Kremlin.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2943500]Of course he did. I had just said that 'countries have held elections during wartime'. Which is a fact. Another fact is that Zelensky's mandate expired a while back. Now he is nothing more than a dictator. The latest purge and shakeup of his cabinet is further proof because now more of his cronies will get the top posts. His end will be similar to Ashaf Ghani's. Then I wonder what all the fools that consider that corrupt clown a hero will say.[/QUOTE]Tell us about Putin's mandate and how he represents the will of the Russian people, since you are such an expert on democracy and legitimacy.

You might have to start looking for new work now that your job with Tenet media is ending.

[QUOTE=VinDici;2943507]Tell us about Putin's mandate and how he represents the will of the Russian people, since you are such an expert on democracy and legitimacy.

You might have to start looking for new work now that your job with Tenet media is ending.[/QUOTE]I have never said Russia is a shining example of a democracy, show me where I did. But my comments about the corrupt actor are correct. History will not judge this greedy **** kindly; he took Ukraine down the primrose path after campaigning on a platform for peace.

[QUOTE=VinDici;2943506]You implied that it is normal for countries to have elections while fighting wars, but could not even find one example that is similar to the situation in Ukraine.

During kinetic wars, countries don't have elections, so stop pushing the Orc narratives direct from the Kremlin.[/QUOTE]I should take this back to my Orc handlers but think I can handle it on my own. What's a kinetic war?

You and / or Xpartan asked for an example of a country that conducted elections while a hostile force held part of a country. I came back with several. I offered no opinion on whether Ukraine should or shouldn't hold elections. All you should have done is come back and say it's unconstitutional for elections to be held in Ukraine when its under martial law, instead of doubling down on an unsupportable position.

I do believe elections during war time are a good idea. I'm a pacifist and believe military and political elites sometimes continue wars when the majority of the populace doesn't want to send their young men off to die any longer. Elections are a good way to make the elites accountable. The lines between Russia and Ukraine have moved very little since November of 2022. There's no good reason other than the constitution why it shouldn't have held elections.

As to your post, why is South Korea not a good example of your and Xpartan's latest request, for a country that held elections while at war and while a hostile force held part of its claimed territory?

Here are some more examples. I can come back with a lot more now that I have a paid subscription to ChatGPT!

France (1940's) - During World War II, parts of France were occupied by Nazi Germany, but elections were held by the French Resistance in liberated areas.

Vietnam (1956) - Vietnam, divided into North and South, held separate elections while foreign forces were present, particularly French and USA Forces in the south and Chinese forces aiding the North.

Afghanistan (2004,2009, 2014) - Afghanistan held elections while parts of the country were under the control of Taliban forces and USA Military operations were ongoing.

Iraq (2005) - Iraq held parliamentary elections while USA And coalition forces were present, and parts of the country were contested by insurgent groups.

Ukraine (2014,2019) - Ukraine has held multiple elections since 2014 while Russia occupied Crimea and parts of the Donetsk and Luhansk regions.

Georgia (2008) - Georgia held elections while Russian forces occupied the regions of Abkhazia and South Ossetia.

Israel (1948) - Israel held its first national elections in 1949 shortly after declaring independence in 1948, during the Arab-Israeli War, when several Arab states occupied parts of what is now Israel.

Lebanon (1972,1992, 2009) Lebanon held elections while parts of the country were occupied by Syrian forces and during the Israeli occupation of southern Lebanon (until 2000).

Bosnia and Herzegovina (1996) After the Bosnian War (19921995), the country held elections while NATO-led peacekeeping forces (IFOR and later SFOR) were deployed, and the Serb Republic (Republika Srpska) had de facto control over part of the territory.

Palestinian Territories (2006) The Palestinian legislative elections were held while Israel occupied the West Bank and blockaded Gaza.

Cyprus (1974 onward) Cyprus has held elections since the Turkish invasion in 1974, during which Turkey took control of the northern part of the island, leading to the creation of the unrecognized Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus.

East Timor (1999) East Timor held a referendum on independence from Indonesia while the country was occupied by Indonesian forces. This led to violence and intervention by international peacekeeping forces.

Kuwait (1992) Kuwait held elections after the Gulf War, during which Iraqi forces occupied the country. Although the occupation had ended by the time of the election, the post-war context was shaped by the invasion and occupation.

West Germany (1949) West Germany (Federal Republic of Germany) held its first elections while parts of the country were under Allied occupation following World War II.

Kosovo (2001) After the Kosovo War and the withdrawal of Serbian forces, Kosovo held elections under international administration by the United Nations while NATO forces were still present.

Congo (DRC) (2006) The Democratic Republic of the Congo held elections while foreign forces from Rwanda, Uganda, and other regional players had intervened, and local militias controlled various parts of the country during the Second Congo War (19982003).

Mali (2013) After the 2012 rebellion in northern Mali and the intervention of French forces, elections were held while parts of the north remained under control of separatist and Islamist groups.

Nicaragua (1984) Nicaragua held elections during the Contra War, where USA -backed Contra rebels occupied and fought for control over parts of the country against the Sandinista government.

Sudan (2010) During Sudan's 2010 elections, conflict continued in the Darfur region, where insurgent groups occupied territories and rebelled against the central government.

Myanmar (Burma) (2010) While Myanmar held elections, parts of its territory were (and still are) controlled by ethnic insurgent groups and military forces involved in ongoing conflict.

Colombia (ongoing) Colombia has held multiple elections while parts of its territory were under the influence or control of guerrilla groups like the FARC and paramilitary forces.

Chechnya (2003) Chechnya, a region of Russia, held a constitutional referendum in 2003 while Russian forces were occupying the territory during the Second Chechen War, and separatist fighters still controlled parts of the republic.

Sri Lanka (1989,2000) Sri Lanka held elections while parts of the north and east of the country were under control of the Tamil Tigers (LTTE) during the country's civil war, which lasted until 2009.

Mozambique (1994) Mozambique held its first multiparty elections while some regions were still affected by the remnants of the civil war between RENAMO rebels and the FRELIMO government.

Eritrea (1993) Eritrea held a referendum on independence from Ethiopia while parts of the country were occupied by Ethiopian forces, and armed conflict was ongoing in certain areas.

Northern Ireland (1969 onwards) Elections continued in Northern Ireland during "The Troubles" (19691998), a period of conflict where parts of the territory experienced violence and were under military occupation or heavy security presence by British forces.

Ivory Coast (2010) Ivory Coast held disputed elections in 2010 during which parts of the country were controlled by forces loyal to incumbent President Laurent Gbagbo and those loyal to his opponent Alassane Ouattara, leading to a civil conflict and eventual foreign intervention by UN and French forces.

Western Sahara (ongoing) While Morocco occupies much of Western Sahara, the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic, which claims the territory, has held elections for its government in exile since 1976, with the support of some international communities.

Tibet (1950's) After China's occupation of Tibet in 1950, the Tibetan government-in-exile, led by the Dalai Lama, has held elections in exile. These elections occurred while China maintained control over the region.

South Sudan (2011) South Sudan held its independence referendum in 2011 while parts of the country were affected by conflict, particularly in regions where militias and armed groups were active, even as Sudanese forces withdrew after the vote.

Nagorno-Karabakh (ongoing) Elections have been held in Nagorno-Karabakh, an Armenian-majority region, despite the ongoing conflict with Azerbaijan and the presence of both Armenian and Azerbaijani forces in disputed territories.

Lebanon (2009) In addition to the 1972 and 1992 elections mentioned earlier, the 2009 elections in Lebanon occurred while parts of the country were still experiencing tensions with Hezbollah, and with Syrian influence still present in certain factions.

Donetsk and Luhansk (ongoing) Elections have been held in the self-proclaimed Donetsk and Luhansk People's Republics in Eastern Ukraine, areas controlled by pro-Russian separatists, even as Ukraine claims the territories and conflict with the Ukrainian government continues.

Somalia (2012,2017, 2022) Somalia has held several rounds of elections, though indirect, while large parts of the country were under the control of Al-Shabaab, a militant group, and with the involvement of foreign peacekeeping forces such as AMISOM (now ATMIS).

Chad (1989,1996, 2001) Chad held elections during periods when parts of the country were controlled by rebel groups, and there was involvement from foreign powers, particularly during the conflicts with Libya over the Aouzou Strip.

Ethiopia (2021) Ethiopia held elections while the Tigray region was in open conflict with the federal government. Portions of Tigray were occupied by federal and Eritrean forces during the conflict.

Serbia (1990's) During the breakup of Yugoslavia, Serbia held elections while parts of the territory of former Yugoslavia, including Kosovo, were involved in conflicts and controlled by different factions.

Cambodia (1993) Cambodia held elections under the supervision of the United Nations Transitional Authority in Cambodia (UNTAC) while Khmer Rouge forces controlled parts of the country.

El Salvador (1984) El Salvador held elections while parts of the country were controlled by guerrilla forces during the civil war between the government and the Farabundo Mart National Liberation Front (FMLN).

Greece (1946) Greece held elections in 1946 while parts of the country were under occupation by Axis forces during World War II and shortly before the outbreak of the Greek Civil War.

South Yemen (1967) South Yemen held elections after gaining independence from British rule, even as conflict persisted between rival factions and British forces were still withdrawing from Aden.

Ukraine (2015 local elections) In addition to national elections mentioned earlier, Ukraine held local elections in 2015, excluding territories controlled by pro-Russian separatists in the Donetsk and Luhansk regions.

Hungary (1945) Hungary held parliamentary elections in 1945 while under occupation by the Soviet Red Army at the end of World War II. The Soviet influence eventually led to the establishment of a communist regime.

Angola (1992) Angola held its first multiparty elections while parts of the country were still under control of the rebel group UNITA, leading to the resumption of civil war after the elections.

Libya (2012,2014) Libya held elections following the toppling of Muammar Gaddafi, but the country was still divided between various militias and regions, with foreign intervention from NATO and regional powers.

Burundi (2015) Burundi held elections during a period of political unrest and violence, with opposition groups boycotting the elections and some areas experiencing instability due to rebel activity.

Rwanda (2003) Rwanda held elections following the Rwandan Genocide, even as rebel groups continued to operate in parts of the country and the eastern Democratic Republic of the Congo.

Tunisia (2011) Tunisia held elections shortly after the Arab Spring revolution, while some areas still faced unrest and militant activity.

Yugoslavia (1945) The Federal People's Republic of Yugoslavia held elections while parts of the country were under Allied military control and still recovering from World War II.

Chechnya (1997,2005) In addition to the 2003 referendum mentioned earlier, Chechnya held elections in 1997 and 2005, during periods of ongoing conflict between Russian forces and Chechen separatists.

Algeria (1958) Algeria held elections during the Algerian War of Independence, while French colonial forces occupied much of the country, and the National Liberation Front (FLN) controlled rural areas.

Northern Cyprus (1983, ongoing) The Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus, recognized only by Turkey, has held elections since its declaration of independence in 1983, despite the ongoing occupation and international dispute over the territory.

Papua New Guinea (1977) Papua New Guinea held elections while the Bougainville region was in conflict, which eventually escalated into the Bougainville Civil War. Bougainville later held its own referendum on independence in 2019.

Zimbabwe (1980) Zimbabwe (then Rhodesia) held elections during the Lancaster House Agreement period while still under British oversight and with ongoing conflict between the government and guerrilla movements such as ZANU and ZAPU.

Liberia (2005) Liberia held elections in 2005 under the supervision of United Nations peacekeepers, following a civil war that had left parts of the country under the control of rebel factions.

Armenia (1992) Armenia held elections in the early 1990's while involved in the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict with Azerbaijan, and parts of its borders were under military tension.

Czechoslovakia (1946) Czechoslovakia held elections in 1946 while under Soviet influence, with Soviet troops occupying parts of the country following World War II.

Syria (2014,2021) Syria has held elections during its ongoing civil war, with large portions of the country controlled by rebel forces, Kurdish factions, or foreign forces such as Russia and the United States.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2943684]I should take this back to my Orc handlers but think I can handle it on my own. What's a kinetic war?

You and / or Xpartan asked for an example of a country that conducted elections while a hostile force held part of a country. I came back with several. I offered no opinion on whether Ukraine should or shouldn't hold elections. All you should have done is come back and say it's unconstitutional for elections to be held in Ukraine when its under martial law, instead of doubling down on an unsupportable position.

I do believe elections during war time are a good idea. I'm a pacifist and believe military and political elites sometimes continue wars when the majority of the populace doesn't want to send their young men off to die any longer. Elections are a good way to make the elites accountable. The lines between Russia and Ukraine have moved very little since November of 2022. There's no good reason other than the constitution why it shouldn't have held elections.

As to your post, why is South Korea not a good example of your and Xpartan's latest request, for a country that held elections while at war and while a hostile force held part of its claimed territory?
[/QUOTE]None of those were held while there was a kinetic war (groan) Ask your good friend ChatGPT what a kinetic war is, as opposed to a cold war and or occupation.

You even included the "elections" in Donetsk and Luhansk (groan) Actually these were during a kinetic war, to be accurate. Tell us about these free and fair elections. You can check with your Orc handlers for a full "factsheet".

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2943666]I have never said Russia is a shining example of a democracy, show me where I did. But my comments about the corrupt actor are correct. History will not judge this greedy **** kindly; he took Ukraine down the primrose path after campaigning on a platform for peace.[/QUOTE]Let me draw an analogy. You complain that one parent is scolding his child, all the while you're sucking off his neighbour who kills his own children and any other kid in the neighbourhood, and letting that go without so much as a mention.

The glaring omissions, and total blindness to any actual context in almost every post, makes it laughable when you assert that you are in a debate.

[QUOTE=VinDici;2943704]None of those were held while there was a kinetic war (groan) Ask your good friend ChatGPT what a kinetic war is, as opposed to a cold war and or occupation.

You even included the "elections" in Donetsk and Luhansk (groan) Actually these were during a kinetic war, to be accurate. Tell us about these free and fair elections. You can check with your Orc handlers for a full "factsheet".[/QUOTE]I found it! All I had to do was ask ChatGPT for VinDici's definition of a kinetic war! Here it is!

"A kinetic war is a euphemism for military action involving active warfare, including lethal force, exclusively conducted within the pre-2014 boundaries of Ukraine or within 100 kilometers of those boundaries. Currently any military action occurring out of that area is not a kinetic war. However the definition may be changed at the sole discretion of VinDici in any manner he chooses. ".

I'll pass that on to my Handlers in case this issue comes up again.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2943851]I found it! All I had to do was ask ChatGPT for VinDici's definition of a kinetic war! Here it is!

"A kinetic war is a euphemism for military action involving active warfare, including lethal force, exclusively conducted within the pre-2014 boundaries of Ukraine or within 100 kilometers of those boundaries. Currently any military action occurring out of that area is not a kinetic war. However the definition may be changed at the sole discretion of VinDici in any manner he chooses. ".

I'll pass that on to my Handlers in case this issue comes up again.[/QUOTE]Yes, the heroic pacifist that thinks peace should come from UA conceding everything, but won't consider the Orcs leaving Ukrainian territory as a solution.

[QUOTE=VinDici;2943705]Let me draw an analogy. You complain that one parent is scolding his child, all the while you're sucking off his neighbour who kills his own children and any other kid in the neighbourhood, and letting that go without so much as a mention.

The glaring omissions, and total blindness to any actual context in almost every post, makes it laughable when you assert that you are in a debate.[/QUOTE]I have condemned war crimes by both sides.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2943881]I have condemned war crimes by both sides.[/QUOTE]You rabidly comment on anything and everything UA, whilst ignoring or handwaving or deflecting (What about the US? What about what the EU is doing? Etc) the much worse and egregious actions of the Orcs. In addition you slavishly support he subjugation of a sovereign nation by a brutal dictatorship.

It's not possible to take you seriously, since there is no sensible discussion to be had when your position is completely unhinged and removed from the realities of the conflict.

[QUOTE=VinDici;2943898]You rabidly comment on anything and everything UA, whilst ignoring or handwaving or deflecting (What about the US? What about what the EU is doing? Etc) the much worse and egregious actions of the Orcs. In addition you slavishly support he subjugation of a sovereign nation by a brutal dictatorship.

It's not possible to take you seriously, since there is no sensible discussion to be had when your position is completely unhinged and removed from the realities of the conflict.[/QUOTE]I have made it crystal clear that I do not have a horse in this race. I have no love for Ukraine or Russia in that regard. I actually find both Ukrainians and Russians as cold.

I have stated many times that I understand why this conflict happened, when it started and how it started and who provoked it and made sure it happened. I despise NATO for what they have done (in Iraq, Yugoslavia, Yemen, Syria, Libya and now Ukraine) and are doing, it is an offensive hegemonic military war machine that wants to keep adding members so it can feed the you. S military industrial complex, because once a country joins NATO, its military has to conform to NATO standards. They knew inviting Ukraine to join NATO would trigger a major war but they did so anyway because they don't give a shit about the Ukrainian people, they are cannon fodder. It is about weaking Russia, they don't care that entire generations in Ukraine have been wiped out.

So yes, because of all these reasons, I am backing Russia, not because I have any love for Russia or Russians. I have also clearly said that I have nothing but respect and the utmost sympathy for ORDINARY Ukrainians who are suffering the most. Their 'leadership' is garbage. Zelensky is a corrupt liar who is reading from a script and pocketing billions. He is a curse for the Ukrainian people, just like NATO is. You will see how history judges this clown when it is written.

And this is a war that should NEVER EVER have happened, but NATO made sure it happened. You may not agree with what Russia did. Yes, it illegally invaded an independent country, no doubt about it. But what you need to understand is that Russia, much like the United States, is a great power. Great powers have red lines and they act when they are crossed or are about to get crossed. Kennedy would not tolerate Soviet missiles in Cuba. That was an American red line. Russia made it crystal clear that they would not tolerate NATO and NATO weapons in Ukraine. Read the famous memo from Bill Burns where he clearly states that Russia will not tolerate Ukraine in NATO from years ago.

[QUOTE=VinDici;2943874]Yes, the heroic pacifist that thinks peace should come from UA conceding everything, but won't consider the Orcs leaving Ukrainian territory as a solution.[/QUOTE]You will soon realize that Ukraine will indeed have to come to grips will reality and concede territory in exchange for peace. Of course they won't want to, but that is the reality.

And if Ukraine does not sign a peace deal by ceding territory, Russia is just going to grab more territory and keep what it has already captured and kill more and more AFU soldiers until Ukraine has had enough and can't keep fighting. Or until there is a collapse of AFU. In both those scenarios, you will end up with a frozen conflict similar to the 2 Koreas. Russia will keep the territory they have annexed and will very likely grab more and annex more. That in my opinion is the most likely outcome IMHO. So the sooner Ukraine negotiates, the better it will be for them.

In 2021, the peace terms before the war were very generous.

In Istanbul 2022 it was just the Donbas + Crimea + neutrality that was demanded.

Now it's the 4 new territories. It is Istanbul PLUS.

So it is in Ukraine's interest to sue for peace now.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2944151]...So it is in Ukraine's interest to sue for peace now.[/QUOTE]The recent indictment of Russians accused of covertly funding a Tennessee media company is merely the tip of the iceberg of Russia's disinformation campaign. It's amazing that the Kremlin would spend $10 million on this one endeavor. The "influencers" were paid $400 k per month to recycle FSB propaganda. These efforts filter down even to an obscure forum like this.

My question to the Russian trolls on this forum is, how much are you paid? Are you jealous of the American stooges who were paid $400,000 per month? (Can you use this information to increase your own salary?

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2944147]I have made it crystal clear that I do not have a horse in this race... [/QUOTE]Then a whole load of incoherent ranting reposting untrue theories right from the Kremlin's asshole, which were debunked in this very thread years ago.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2944147]So yes, because of all these reasons, I am backing Russia[/QUOTE]This is why you are difficult to take seriously.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2944147]Read the famous memo from Bill Burns where he clearly states that Russia will not tolerate Ukraine in NATO from years ago.[/QUOTE][URL]https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/08MOSCOW265_a.html[/URL]

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2944151]You will soon realize that Ukraine will indeed have to come to grips will reality and concede territory in exchange for peace. Of course they won't want to, but that is the reality.

And if Ukraine does not sign a peace deal by ceding territory, Russia is just going to grab more territory and keep what it has already captured and kill more and more AFU soldiers until Ukraine has had enough and can't keep fighting. Or until there is a collapse of AFU. In both those scenarios, you will end up with a frozen conflict similar to the 2 Koreas. Russia will keep the territory they have annexed and will very likely grab more and annex more. That in my opinion is the most likely outcome IMHO. So the sooner Ukraine negotiates, the better it will be for them.

In 2021, the peace terms before the war were very generous.

In Istanbul 2022 it was just the Donbas + Crimea + neutrality that was demanded.

Now it's the 4 new territories. It is Istanbul PLUS.

So it is in Ukraine's interest to sue for peace now.[/QUOTE]Good analysis. Correct, the west and Ukraine don't recognize reality. Russia's not going to give up and go home without saving face.

It's easy to be an armchair warrior. It's not so easy to die a bloody death or to live the rest of your life paralyzed or without limbs. If the grunts on the front lines were making the decisions, this war would be over.

The USA is bankrolling this war. And 70% of Americans polled wanted the American administration to push Ukraine towards a negotiated settlement as soon as possible.

Drama free and Elvis, you're part of the silent majority.

[URL]https://responsiblestatecraft.org/ukraine-peace-talks-poll/[/URL]

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2944319]The USA is bankrolling this war. And 70% of Americans polled wanted the American administration to push Ukraine towards a negotiated settlement as soon as possible.

Drama free and Elvis, you're part of the silent majority.

[URL]https://responsiblestatecraft.org/ukraine-peace-talks-poll/[/URL][/QUOTE]A negotiated settlement would include the withdrawal of invading Orcs, and return of territories to Ukraine including Donbass and Crimea. So I am not surprised so many were in favor.

[QUOTE=VinDici;2944216]Then a whole load of incoherent ranting reposting untrue theories right from the Kremlin's asshole, which were debunked in this very thread years ago.

This is why you are difficult to take seriously.[/QUOTE]You do not have an argument, which is why you resorted to selective quotation.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2944303][URL]https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/08MOSCOW265_a.html[/URL]

Good analysis. Correct, the west and Ukraine don't recognize reality. Russia's not going to give up and go home without saving face.

It's easy to be an armchair warrior. It's not so easy to die a bloody death or to live the rest of your life paralyzed or without limbs. If the grunts on the front lines were making the decisions, this war would be over.[/QUOTE]The war will end (become a frozen conflict basically) when there are no Ukrainians left to send to the battlefield to die, or when there is a collapse. The average age of the Ukrainian soldier is already around 45. Fighting wars is for men in their 20's ideally. And women are already being sent to the front line. Entire generations of men have been wiped out. And they want this to continue. Horrific.

[quote=vindici;2944342]a negotiated settlement would include the withdrawal of invading orcs, and return of territories to ukraine including donbass and crimea. .[/quote]delusional.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2944390]delusional.[/QUOTE]The Orcs are all in on Trump winning the election. If he doesn't win, none of what you are proposing will come to pass.

[QUOTE=VinDici;2944342]A negotiated settlement would include the withdrawal of invading Orcs, and return of territories to Ukraine including Donbass and Crimea. So I am not surprised so many were in favor.[/QUOTE]You forgot reparations.

[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2944427]You forgot reparations.[/QUOTE]These guys are comical. And delusional. As they say, if wishes were horses, then beggars would ride them. That would mean the corrupt dictator Zelensky lol.

[QUOTE=VinDici;2944411]The Orcs are all in on Trump winning the election. If he doesn't win, none of what you are proposing will come to pass.[/QUOTE]Trump or Harris, it will make no difference to the final outcome which will be a Russian victory. And yes, you can write that down.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2944486]Trump or Harris, it will make no difference to the final outcome which will be a Russian victory. And yes, you can write that down.[/QUOTE]After the dissolution of the FSB, it will be revealed that Trump is a wholly owned asset of the Kremlin. Russia's pro Trump propaganda campaign was relatively small in 2016, and they were amazed by its success. Since then, it has spent hundreds of millions of dollars to maintain Trump in power and extend their corruption and ownership of the Republican party. So, of course, there is an obvious difference in the expected outcomes between electing Harris and Trump.

Okay, I've written down your prediction. How about writing this down? Dagestan, Chechnya, Siberia, Karelia, Bashkortostan. These regions all have substantial forces engaged against Russian imperialism in Ukraine. After the collapse of the Russian army, what do you predict these separatist battalions are going to do? Go home peacefully to Dagestan? For your own mental well being, I suggest to at least try and imagine this.

[URL]https://www.nytimes.com/2024/09/13/us/p[/URL] . A-war. Html.

Excellent, realistic plan by J. The Vance and Trump to end the Ukraine war. Looks like some sense is finally starting to prevail in the collective West.

Mr. Vance said Mr. Trump would sit down with Russians, Ukrainians and Europeans and say, "You guys need to figure out what a peaceful settlement looks like. " he went on to outline what he thinks a deal would entail: The Russians would retain the land they have taken and a demilitarized zone would be established along the current battle lines, with the Ukrainian side heavily fortified to prevent another Russian invasion.

While the remainder of Ukraine would remain an independent sovereign state, Mr. Vance said, Russia would get a "guarantee of neutrality" from Ukraine.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2944933][URL]https://www.nytimes.com/2024/09/13/us/p[/URL] ...Excellent, realistic plan by J. The Vance and Trump to end the Ukraine war. Looks like some sense is finally starting to prevail in the collective West....[/QUOTE]Unsurprisingly, it's identical to Putin's plan. The most disturbing thing to me, and the principal reason I'm voting for Democrats, is the capitulation of the Republican party to Trump...and Putin.

[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2944943]Unsurprisingly, it's identical to Putin's plan. The most disturbing thing to me, and the principal reason I'm voting for Democrats, is the capitulation of the Republican party to Trump...and Putin.[/QUOTE]It's the only realistic plan. You can keep chasing a fantasy and in the process be OK with tens of thousands of more Ukrainians dying. What a sick mindset.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2944976]It's the only realistic plan. You can keep chasing a fantasy and in the process be OK with tens of thousands of more Ukrainians dying. What a sick mindset.[/QUOTE]Did you do your one year minimum military service?

My prediction, Trump won't become the next POTUS. We will not accept any demilitarized zone or guarantees of neutrality. The aspirational goal is the unification of both countries. It is the people who will achieve this goal as they won in the historical past. When the US stops supplying the junta it would take 2 to 3 months for peace to settle. The US can enter into a direct agreement with Russia on a broader security. This way the balance will be restored. The alternative, and I'm pessimistic overall, is going to be an escalation which can lead to a nuclear conflict.

[QUOTE=Questner;2945007]My prediction, Trump won't become the next POTUS. We will not accept any demilitarized zone or guarantees of neutrality. The aspirational goal is the unification of both countries. It is the people who will achieve this goal as they won in the historical past. When the US stops supplying the junta it would take 2 to 3 months for peace to settle. The US can enter into a direct agreement with Russia on a broader security. This way the balance will be restored. The alternative, and I'm pessimistic overall, is going to be an escalation which can lead to a nuclear conflict.[/QUOTE]I was actually a bit surprised that Trump's plan floated by Vance was as per my prediction pretty much. If USA stops supplying Ukraine with arms, the war will end quickly no doubt.

Let's say Harris wins and the USA keeps supplying arms and money to Ukraine. It still won't change the final outcome. Ukraine will run out of soldiers and weapons eventually. Russia will keep taking more territory and continue to wreck Ukraine. What will be left will be a rump, dysfunctional state which will never ever join NATO. So the end result will be the same. A frozen conflict and Ukraine destroyed. So better to make some sort of peace and save what is left. It's the logical and humane thing to do.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2945115]... It's the logical and humane thing to do.[/QUOTE]The logical and humane outcome is for Russia to sue for peace, withdraw to the 1992 borders and to initiate reparations.

[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2945140]The logical and humane outcome is for Russia to sue for peace, withdraw to the 1992 borders and to initiate reparations.[/QUOTE]This is the real world, not some fantasy world. In the real world, that's not how things work. The peace proposal presented by Vance is realistic. I get it that for Ukraine it will be very, very painful to accept or even consider, but that's the harsh reality.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2945146]This is the real world, not some fantasy world. In the real world, that's not how things work. The peace proposal presented by Vance is realistic. I get it that for Ukraine it will be very, very painful to accept or even consider, but that's the harsh reality.[/QUOTE]Giving Putin everything he wants and waving the white flag is not an outcome that will lead to long term peace. Long term peace will only come if Russia is defeated.

[QUOTE=VinDici;2945170]Giving Putin everything he wants and waving the white flag is not an outcome that will lead to long term peace. Long term peace will only come if Russia is defeated.[/QUOTE]You can keep dreaming. Meanwhile, Ukraine will cede territory to Russia and there will be an ugly peace similar to the 2 Koreas.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2945115]I was actually a bit surprised that Trump's plan floated by Vance was as per my prediction pretty much. If USA stops supplying Ukraine with arms, the war will end quickly no doubt.

Let's say Harris wins and the USA keeps supplying arms and money to Ukraine. It still won't change the final outcome. Ukraine will run out of soldiers and weapons eventually. Russia will keep taking more territory and continue to wreck Ukraine. What will be left will be a rump, dysfunctional state which will never ever join NATO. So the end result will be the same. A frozen conflict and Ukraine destroyed. So better to make some sort of peace and save what is left. It's the logical and humane thing to do.[/QUOTE]The outcome of the elections is irrelevant. Significant number of Russians don't want to further unify with Ukraine. Political leadership publicly at the moment defines the plans as per SMO (which may change soon). Military leadership wants complete control over the territory (as myself). We don't want anything to be frozen or any non functional state, but open borders and peace moving forward.

No EU, no agreements between Ukraine and other NATO members, no joining NATO. We can mobilize, win over the elites and change the government or enter into direct conflict with NATO. I don't know details on negotiations or political plans, so I remain pessimistic, as it will take tenfold to achieve even minimal goals of the SMO.

Someday we have to live together in peace (and the wounds of the conflict are going to last for 3 generations) - this sentence to be repeated each time any step further is contemplated; everything else is a foreign narrative imposed in media.

[QUOTE=Questner;2945255]Someday we have to live together in peace (and the wounds of the conflict are going to last for 3 generations) - this sentence to be repeated each time any step further is contemplated; everything else is a foreign narrative imposed in media.[/QUOTE]They made Shias and Sunnis fight in the middle east. And here they succeeded in making fellow ethnic Slavs fight each other.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2945385]They made Shias and Sunnis fight in the middle east. And here they succeeded in making fellow ethnic Slavs fight each other.[/QUOTE]Who are "they"?

[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2945410]Who are "they"?[/QUOTE]You're not terribly bright or well informed, so I shall gladly help you out here. They is NATO / the collective west. They also set the precedent of changing borders by force in Europe.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2945470]You're not terribly bright or well informed, so I shall gladly help you out here. They is NATO / the collective west. They also set the precedent of changing borders by force in Europe.[/QUOTE]Can you provide an example of NATO's forcible changes of borders? Would that be the annexation of Donetsk, Kherson, Luhansk and Zaporizhzhia?

[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2945140]The logical and humane outcome is for Russia to sue for peace, withdraw to the 1992 borders and to initiate reparations.[/QUOTE]Humane, 100% of course. Logical, for Russia? Couldn't be more illogical to sacrifice as much as Russia did and get nothing in return only to pay humiliating and economy crushing reparations. Russia may be a war monger and a bully, but there not as stupid as media wants you to believe. They are in it for the long haul and looks like NATO and USA will continue to pay the bill.

My question for anyone who wants to answer is this, if Ukraine loses does USA get paid back for all the weapons we sold them? As an American, do I get those tax dollars back some how?

[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2945482]Can you provide an example of NATO's forcible changes of borders? Would that be the annexation of Donetsk, Kherson, Luhansk and Zaporizhzhia?[/QUOTE]Sure I can, Son. Pay attention as you are getting a free lesson in history, courtesy of Blood Red.

NATO intervened in Yugoslavia in 1999, savagely bombed the country and its critical infrastructure, killed many innocent Serbian civilians and carved out Kosovo from the Serbian heartland illegally. This was never accepted by Serbia and many other countries. So, the precedent of changing borders by force in Europe was set by NATO. You reap what you sow. I hope you learned something today, Son.

[QUOTE=RamDavidson84;2945526]
My question for anyone who wants to answer is this, if Ukraine loses does USA get paid back for all the weapons we sold them? As an American, do I get those tax dollars back some how?[/QUOTE]You won't get shit back as a taxpayer but companies like Blackrock etc will make a ton of money via reconstruction contracts.

The crazy down in Florida had a connection to Ukraine. I wonder if he talked shit here?

Time to stop the carnage. Ukraine and Russia should be negotiating an end to the war, now.

The following are excerpts from,

[B]Ukraines new infantry recruits freeze in face of Russian onslaught[/B]

For six gruelling days this month a small team of experienced Ukrainian soldiers managed to withstand Russia's relentless assault on their position on the eastern front.

All aged under 40 and with two years of fighting experience, the six men held their ground despite a barrage of rockets and killed over 100 Russian soldiers, said their commander in Ukraine's eastern Donetsk region.

"When they rotated out, they were trembling. They hadn't slept or rested," their commander said near the frontline south-east of Pokrovsk, a city Russia is seeking to occupy. "But those guys did their job and held the line. ".

The troops who replaced them were less successful. Of the eight soldiers rotated in, only two had combat experience. [B]All six new conscripts most over the age of 40 were killed or wounded within a week, forcing the unit to retreat.[/B].

*Ukraine's troops and their commanders are growing concerned over manpower problems, particularly the quality of new recruits and the speed at which they are injured or killed.

The Ukrainian infantry is most acutely affected: its troops are grappling with exhaustion and flagging morale, leading some to abandon their positions and allow Russia to capture more land, according to frontline commanders.

Along the front in Donetsk, four commanders, a deputy commander and nearly a dozen soldiers from four Ukrainian brigades told the Financial Times that the new conscripts lack basic combat skills, motivation and often flee their positions when they come under fire.

[B]The commanders estimated that 50 to 70 per cent of new infantry troops were killed or wounded within days of starting their first rotation.[/B]

"When the new guys get to the position, a lot of them run away at the first shell explosion," said a deputy commander in Ukraine's 72nd mechanised brigade fighting near the eastern city of Vuhledar, a key bulwark that the Russians are attempting to flank.

[URL]https://www.ft.com/content/b9396112-585a-4f7e-9628-13d500c99d93[/URL]

[QUOTE=RamDavidson84;2945526]
My question for anyone who wants to answer is this, if Ukraine loses does USA get paid back for all the weapons we sold them? As an American, do I get those tax dollars back some how?[/QUOTE]Apparently, Ms. Zelensky spent a million dollars in New York City all in one day. So I am not sure about that. Good luck separating a woman from her shoes.

But there were reports that a bunch of Ukrainian generals and government elite showed up at the Globe Club one night and hogged all the hot women.

I do think we will get that money back. Because the one thing you can count on in life is hookers to be ethical.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2948354]Time to stop the carnage...[/QUOTE]I agree completely. It will happen when Russia withdraws behind 1992 international borders. Then both sides can enter into talks on the amount of Russian reparations for the destruction of life and property caused by their illegal war of aggression.

[QUOTE=Elvis2008;2948357]
But there were reports that a bunch of Ukrainian generals and government elite showed up at the Globe Club one night and hogged all the hot women.
[/QUOTE]Please provide more details about those reports, I haven't heard anything about that. I live in Zurich, go often to Globe and know several Globe regulars. I hear nothing about this, nobody in Globe said anything about this, so I believe this is total bullshit.

[QUOTE=Elvis2008;2948357]But there were reports that a bunch of Ukrainian generals and government elite showed up at the Globe Club one night and hogged all the hot women..[/QUOTE]You must be kidding. High level Ukrainians have access to the best pussy on the planet.

[QUOTE=Elvis2008;2948357]Apparently, Ms. Zelensky spent a million dollars in New York City all in one day. So I am not sure about that. Good luck separating a woman from her shoes.

But there were reports that a bunch of Ukrainian generals and government elite showed up at the Globe Club one night and hogged all the hot women.

I do think we will get that money back. Because the one thing you can count on in life is hookers to be ethical.[/QUOTE]Why would this, be a surprise to anyone they have been stealing from the beginning, only the media and far lefties would be surprised by this behavior. They are a bunch of crooks, the truth will come out some day.

Ugledar.

Ugledar.

Ugledar.

Ugledar.

Ugledar.

Ugledar.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2950501]Ugledar.

Ugledar.

Ugledar.

Ugledar.

Ugledar.

Ugledar.[/QUOTE][URL]https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/how-significant-would-russias-capture-ukrainian-town-vuhledar-be-2024-10-01/[/URL]

Here's an article about life in Ukrainian towns about to be overrun by Russian forces.

[URL]https://kyivindependent.com/burning-horizon-as-russia-makes-gains-near-pokrovsk-civilians-remain-frozen-in-inaction/[/URL]

Estonian intelligence apparently believes Ukrainian forces will be forced to retreat from Pokrovsk by the end of the year.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2950700][URL]https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/how-significant-would-russias-capture-ukrainian-town-vuhledar-be-2024-10-01/[/URL]

Here's an article about life in Ukrainian towns about to be overrun by Russian forces.

[URL]https://kyivindependent.com/burning-horizon-as-russia-makes-gains-near-pokrovsk-civilians-remain-frozen-in-inaction/[/URL]

Estonian intelligence apparently believes Ukrainian forces will be forced to retreat from Pokrovsk by the end of the year.[/QUOTE]So, you are saying Ukraine isn't winning?

What about Zelensky's "Victory Plan" LOL. Good God.

[QUOTE=DramaFree11;2948865]Why would this, be a surprise to anyone they have been stealing from the beginning, only the media and far lefties would be surprised by this behavior. They are a bunch of crooks, the truth will come out some day.[/QUOTE]The truth will come out when the ship will start to sink (already started) and when the west throws Zelensky under the bus. That too is coming up soon.

[QUOTE=PaulInZurich;2948707]Please provide more details about those reports, I haven't heard anything about that. I live in Zurich, go often to Globe and know several Globe regulars. I hear nothing about this, nobody in Globe said anything about this, so I believe this is total bullshit.[/QUOTE]He read it on the Internet.

[QUOTE=Xpartan;2951038]He read it on the Internet.[/QUOTE]I read on the internet that Zelensky has a victory plan.

Can you please share some info on that, Xpartan? Do you think Ukraine can win? If yes, what does that victory look like in your view?

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2951355]I read on the internet that Zelensky has a victory plan.

Can you please share some info on that, Xpartan? Do you think Ukraine can win? If yes, what does that victory look like in your view?[/QUOTE]XMan and Pres. Z. are both delusional and in complete denial.

Better see here US President Joe Biden's administration report on its strategy for the war in Ukraine that was sent to Congress in September 2024.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2950501]Ugledar.

Ugledar.

Ugledar.

Ugledar.

Ugledar.

Ugledar.[/QUOTE]Seems like my previous response to our favorite Putin's troll has been lost in a black hole of moderation again, so here it is again.

Vuhledar (pre-war population 14,000) in 950 days. What a brilliant Russian victory!

There used to be times when the Russians set other military goals, like Kyiv in 3 days (which they now deny despite all the documented evidence). But they've gotten wiser. Nowadays, capturing the ruins of a tiny town in Donetsk at a price of tens of thousands dead and crippled orcs, the town they've been storming for 2. 5 years, mind you, is a call for celebration.

In the meantime, Zelenskiy's forces keep molesting the Russians in Kursk, the "sacred" Russian land, where the locals are all but supporting the liberators and cursing their own government.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2951355]I read on the internet that Zelensky has a victory plan.

Can you please share some info on that, Xpartan? Do you think Ukraine can win? If yes, what does that victory look like in your view?[/QUOTE]Oh, I don't know, Igor. What I see clearly is how Russia will lose -- when the Russians turn their weapons on Putin's mafia clan and Russia's repressed ethnic minorities will herald the end of the last empire on Earth. That will preclude years and years of a new massive civil war.

1917, here we come.

This uncontrolled disintegration of Russia is what the "collective West" is really scared of, the complete chaos that a quick Ukraine's victory may unleash.

All in vain, though. Que sera sera. Ukraine will keep fighting, and Russia's dead-set on self-destruction, anyway.

Russia is Russia's biggest problem, not Ukraine.

Was soll der Quatsch 99% wollen informationen über Sex hier. Bitte löscht so einen Quatsch.

[QUOTE=Xpartan;2951574]

There used to be times when the Russians set other military goals, like Kyiv in 3 days (which they now deny despite all the documented evidence). But they've gotten wiser. .[/QUOTE]Since you're a habitual liar and have a third-grade education, I don't think there's much point in reminding you that the 'Kiev in 3 days' line was never used by Putin or any Russian but by General Mark Miley of the United States army.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2951914]Since you're a habitual liar and have a third-grade education, I don't think there's much point in reminding you that the 'Kiev in 3 days' line was never used by Putin or any Russian but by General Mark Miley of the United States army.[/QUOTE]The Rusisans are clobbering the Nazis. Soon, the resident Nazis here will stfu and go back to wet dreams about Russia disintegrating, just as their shtt for brains have.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2951914]Since you're a habitual liar and have a third-grade education, I don't think there's much point in reminding you that the 'Kiev in 3 days' line was never used by Putin or any Russian but by General Mark Miley of the United States army.[/QUOTE]Sure thing Igor: Keep banging your head against the wall. Over and over and over, that's a great strategy.

Vladimir Soloviev, top Putin's propogandist.

[QUOTE]We'll raise an eyebrow and Ukraine will understand everything.[/QUOTE]Artem Sheinin, Russian propagandist and executive of the state-controlled Channel One.

[QUOTE]And Kyiv will be taken so quickly -- 1.5-3 days[/QUOTE]Olga Skabyeeva, lead TV propagandist, AKA "Iron Doll of Putin TV".

[QUOTE]Two days, then the fall of the city.[/QUOTE]Margarita Simonyan, media executive and head of the Russian state-controlled RT and the state-owned Rossiya Segodnya.

[QUOTE]In a hot war we will defeat Ukraine in 2 days; what's there to defeat, Jesus -- that's Ukraine![/QUOTE]And of course, the cherry on top:

Vladimir Putin:

[QUOTE]If I wanted to, I could take Kiev in two weeks.[/QUOTE][URL]https://twitter.com/i/status/1649011513259175937[/URL]

[URL]https://time.com/3259699/putin-boast-kiev-2-weeks[/URL]

[QUOTE=Jarango;2951942]The Rusisans are clobbering the Nazis. Soon, the resident Nazis here will stfu and go back to wet dreams about Russia disintegrating, just as their shtt for brains have.[/QUOTE]You guys are really something. I mean, neither Hitler nor Mussolini ever thought of calling their opponents the Nazis. Goebbels totally missed on something there.

[QUOTE=WolfgangMayr;2951771]Was soll der Quatsch 99% wollen informationen ber Sex hier. Bitte lscht so einen Quatsch.[/QUOTE]I'm sure the Mods will help you understand how this forum works, but before they do:

1. The forum language is English.

2. When you see a sub-forum named "Stupid Shit", this is not strictly about sex.

3. New members should refrain from barking orders -- but that's not a rule, just common courtesy.

[QUOTE=Jarango;2951942]The Rusisans are clobbering the Nazis. Soon, the resident Nazis here will stfu and go back to wet dreams about Russia disintegrating, just as their shtt for brains have.[/QUOTE]They are already coming up with the lame narrative they will run with once Ukraine is defeated. I bet it will be one of the following:

Ukraine still exists as a country, so Putin failed as he wanted to conquer all of Ukraine (a lie).

Russia only managed to conquer 25% of Ukraine and suffered enormous losses (Russia is not interested in anything other than Odessa west of the Dniper).

Or some other bullshit like that.

Ugledar was a heavily fortified city and strategically important and now they will say it doesn't matter by citing it's pre war population etc. Idiots.

[B]Russia on brink of civil war after Chechen leader declares 'blood feud'[/B]

[QUOTE]Chechnya's brutal dictator appeared to pour flames on simmering tensions between the two republics, when he announced a blood feud on two politicians from Dagestan and one from Ingushetia. In a televised meeting with senior officials, Kadyrov said: "I officially declare a blood feud against Bekhan Barakhoyev, Suleiman Kerimov and Rizvan Kurbanov."

Kerimov and Kurbanov are both originally from Dagestan, while Barakhoyev is from Ingushetia.[/QUOTE][URL]https://www.the-express.com/news/world-news/151307/russia-chechnya-dagestan-kadyrov-blood-feud[/URL]

For the record, I disagree with the clearly sensationalized heading, for I don't think we're there yet. But the simple fact that Putin not only has failed to prevent this outrageous display of unspeakable disobedience, but hasn't even dared react in any way, shape or form to put his vassal in his place, tells us everything we need to know about this rotten to the core failed state, this colossus with feet of clay, this mammoth display of weakness and depravity.

[B]And you wanna be my latex salesman! LOL[/B]

[URL]https://youtu.be/VUW71HXbXAg[/URL]

[QUOTE=Xpartan;2951960]Sure thing Igor: Keep banging your head against the wall. Over and over and over, that's a great strategy.
.[/QUOTE]Putin or any Russian government official never said that and you failed miserably to provide any evidence. You also ran away from posting the actual link where Mark Milley did indeed say that. As I said, you're a coward, delusional and have a very low I. Q.

You = owned. Walk on home, boy.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2952042]Putin or any Russian government official never said that and you failed miserably to provide any evidence. You also ran away from posting the actual link where Mark Milley did indeed say that. As I said, you're a coward, delusional and have a very low I. Q.

You = owned. Walk on home, boy.[/QUOTE]Yesterday it was any Russian, today it has to be an "official", LOL.

OK, I'll see your 10 and raise you 100.

Both Simonyan and Sheinin are Russian government officials. A bigger Goebbels and a smaller Goebbels running [B]state media organizations[/B].

Is your fuhrer also not a Russian government official? Did he not claim he could take Kyiv in 2 weeks? Surely, 2 weeks is more than 3 days, but -- did you take Kyiv in 2 weeks, Igor?

No. You've taken the ruines of Vuhledar after 950 days of fighting and tens of thousands of dead orcs to show for it.

660,000 dead and crippled in less than 3 years, and you still have failed to capture Bombas.

What a country!

[URL]https://eros.lviv.ua/en/[/URL] - hit yesterday by army recruiters as well.

'Ukrainian military recruitment officers raided restaurants, bars and a concert hall in Kyiv, checking military registration documents and detaining men who were not in compliance, media and witnesses reported Sunday.

Officers descended on Kyiv's Palace of Sports venue after a concert Saturday night by Ukrainian rock band Okean Elzy. Video footage aired by local media outlets appears to show officers stationed outside the doors of the concert hall intercepting men as they exit. In the footage, officers appear to be forcibly detaining some men.

Checks were also conducted at Goodwine, an upscale shopping centre, and Avalon, a popular restaurant.

It is unusual for such raids to take place in the capital and it reflects Ukraine's dire need for fresh recruits. All Ukrainian men aged 25-60 are eligible for conscription, and men aged 18-60 are not allowed to leave the country.

Men live in fear of being called up.

A 27-year-old man said he left the concert as the last song was playing after he was told about the recruitment officers. He said he saw soldiers and police talking to people but "didn't see anything super aggressive. ".

He said men felt in danger of being drafted whenever they ventured outside.

"That inner state of always being in danger, it's back again," he told The Associated Press, only giving his first name for fear of retribution. He said his university draft waiver was taken away after Ukraine passed laws in April that both lowered the draft-eligible age for men from 27 to 25 and did away with some draft exemptions.

Local reports said raids were also conducted in clubs and restaurants across other Ukrainian cities, including Kharkiv and Dnipro in eastern and central Ukraine.

Ukraine has intensified its mobilisation drive this year. A new law came into effect this spring stipulating that those eligible for military service must input their information into an online system or face penalties. '.

[B]Russians Planned a Victory Parade in Kyiv but Dumped Their Formal Attire as They Fled[/B]

[QUOTE]Russian forces that unsuccessfully tried to take Kyiv were so confident they would win they brought along outfits to hold a parade in the capital, a Ukrainian military official said Thursday. But they wound up dumping their parade attire when they were forced to retreat, according to Oleksandr Gruzevich, deputy chief of staff of Ukraines ground forces. At a briefing early Thursday, Gruzevich said Russian troops had left behind formal military attire in the Kyiv region. If any of you have been in the liberated citiesIrpen, Bucha, Ivankov, Makarov you saw how much equipment the enemy left, how much of it was destroyed and how much of it was stupidly abandoned. Along with that we are finding parade uniforms that they left, meaning [b]the enemy planned to enter Kyiv in two days and then march through[/b], Gruzevich told reporters.[/QUOTE][URL]https://www.thedailybeast.com/russians-planned-a-victory-parade-in-kyivbut-dumped-their-formal-attire-as-they-fled[/URL]

While both sides lie, the pro Ukrainian / Nazi lot are reduced to the most threadbare of lies. Russia is advancing all along the front (both sets of maps agree to that) and they are killing the Ukrainian invaders in Kursk at a huge rate. Yet the West still lies about all that. When we trcikel the West down to this aite, the main Nazi apologists, Xpartan and his type, are so uninformed they are pathetic.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2952042]Putin or any Russian government official never said that and you failed miserably to provide any evidence. You also ran away from posting the actual link where Mark Milley did indeed say that. As I said, you're a coward, delusional and have a very low I. Q.

You = owned. Walk on home, boy.[/QUOTE]Of course, it's impossible to argue with paid propagandists. The methods of disinformation have been well and continuously practiced by Russian state entities since late czarist times: lies, illegitimate "news", denial of previousl statements, projection, vilification, personal attacks on "enemies of the state", etc. The ad hominem attacks are always the clearest tell of a propagandist who is running low.

[QUOTE=Xpartan;2952498][B]Russians Planned a Victory Parade in Kyiv but Dumped Their Formal Attire as They Fled[/B]

[URL]https://www.thedailybeast.com/russians-planned-a-victory-parade-in-kyivbut-dumped-their-formal-attire-as-they-fled[/URL][/QUOTE]Of course that will be dismissed as "Western Propaganda. " Igor will then go back to pontificating while refusing to cite any sources.

[QUOTE=Jarango;2952537]While both sides lie, the pro Ukrainian / Nazi lot are reduced to the most threadbare of lies. Russia is advancing all along the front (both sets of maps agree to that) and they are killing the Ukrainian invaders in Kursk at a huge rate. Yet the West still lies about all that. When we trcikel the West down to this aite, the main Nazi apologists, Xpartan and his type, are so uninformed they are pathetic.[/QUOTE]Umberto Eco classified fascism better than anyone else could IMHO. Try to find even one box that Putin's Russia won't tick.

1. The cult of tradition. "One has only to look at the syllabus of every fascist movement to find the major traditionalist thinkers. The Nazi gnosis was nourished by traditionalist, syncretistic, occult elements. ".

2. The rejection of modernism. "The Enlightenment, the Age of Reason, is seen as the beginning of modern depravity. In this sense yr-Fascism can be defined as irrationalism. ".

3. The cult of action for action's sake. "Action being beautiful in itself, it must be taken before, or without, any previous reflection. Thinking is a form of emasculation. ".

4. Disagreement is treason. "The critical spirit makes distinctions, and to distinguish is a sign of modernism. In modern culture the scientific community praises disagreement as a way to improve knowledge. ".

5. Fear of difference. "The first appeal of a fascist or prematurely fascist movement is an appeal against the intruders. Thus your-Fascism is racist by definition. ".

6. Appeal to social frustration. "One of the most typical features of the historical fascism was the appeal to a frustrated middle class, a class suffering from an economic crisis or feelings of political humiliation, and frightened by the pressure of lower social groups. ".

7. The obsession with a plot. "Thus at the root of the yr-Fascist psychology there is the obsession with a plot, possibly an international one. The followers must feel besieged. ".

8. The enemy is both strong and weak. "By a continuous shifting of rhetorical focus, the enemies are at the same time too strong and too weak. ".

9. Pacifism is trafficking with the enemy. "For yr-Fascism there is no struggle for life but, rather, life is lived for struggle. ".

10. Contempt for the weak. "Elitism is a typical aspect of any reactionary ideology. ".

11. Everybody is educated to become a hero. "In yr-Fascist ideology, heroism is the norm. This cult of heroism is strictly linked with the cult of death. ".

12. Machismo and weaponry. "Machismo implies both disdain for women and intolerance and condemnation of nonstandard sexual habits, from chastity to homosexuality. ".

13. Selective populism. "There is in our future a TV or Internet populism, in which the emotional response of a selected group of citizens can be presented and accepted as the Voice of the People. ".

14. Yr-Fascism speaks Newspeak. "All the Nazi or Fascist schoolbooks made use of an impoverished vocabulary, and an elementary syntax, in order to limit the instruments for complex and critical reasoning. ".

[URL]https://www.openculture.com/2016/11/umberto-eco-makes-a-list-of-the-14-common-features-of-fascism.html[/URL]

[QUOTE=Xpartan;2952668]Umberto Eco classified fascism

Your heroes have lost.
][/QUOTE]Get yourself a bayonert and a helmet. Go all Rhett Butler, parrot boy [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PnEZrV_WT44&t=31s[/URL].

Unconditional surrender. War crimes tirals. The rope for Zelensky.

[QUOTE=Jarango;2952770]Get yourself a bayonert and a helmet. Go all Rhett Butler, parrot boy[/QUOTE]Why would I need a bayonet? I have nothing to do with Ukraine. Ukraine and its heroic soldiers have my enormous respect (and my donations, too), but it isn't my war.

You, on the other hand. You, Igor and other Russian fascists lucky enough to reside outside your failed mafia state, should put your money where your mouth is and join your fuhrer's war effort. Otherwise, it appears that your mouth is the most courageous part of your body.

[QUOTE=Xpartan;2952498][B]Russians Planned a Victory Parade in Kyiv but Dumped Their Formal Attire as They Fled[/B]

[URL]https://www.thedailybeast.com/russians-planned-a-victory-parade-in-kyivbut-dumped-their-formal-attire-as-they-fled[/URL][/QUOTE]Time to own your dumbass yet again. Pay attention, boy.

Owned, shit4 brains.

Gen. Milley says Kyiv could fall within 72 hours if Russia decides to invade Ukraine: sources.

[URL]https://www.foxnews.com/us/gen-milley-says-kyiv-could-fall-within-72-hours-if-russia-decides-to-invade-ukraine-sources[/URL]

Even Russian Propaganda Was Hesitant to Claim Kyiv Would Fall in Three Days.

[URL]https://www.newsweek.com/even-russian-propaganda-was-hesitant-claim-kyiv-would-fall-three-days-1832754[/URL]

[QUOTE=Xpartan;2952922]I have nothing to do with Ukraine. Ukraine and its heroic soldiers have my enormous respect (and my donations, too), but it isn't my war..[/QUOTE]You have been parading your ignorance here for years. You know nothing about it and just want to stuck your head between a Ukrainian crack addict's legs again. Or maybe Zelensky's, when he is in tights and heeels. Cheeleaders like you have always sickened me. You are an insult to humanity. Get a rope and do the right thing.

Aleksey Moskalev a single father of a 12-year old girl was arrested after his daughter was reported for a drawing that depicted a Russian and Ukrainian flags with words "No to war" and "Glory to Ukraine".

The criminal investigation that followed found some antiwar messages in Moskalev's social networks. He was sentenced to 1 year and 10 months for discrediting the Russian military.

His daughter was placed in foster care after his arrest.

Moskalev was finally released after serving his term.

"Russia cannot be fully understood by those who have not been through its prisons," he said after his release.

[URL]https://newsroom.ap.org/editorial-photos-videos/detail?itemid=c65f4a2cacf345f79e418859b33bf876[/URL]

[QUOTE=Paulie97;2952625]Of course that will be dismissed as "Western Propaganda. " Igor will then go back to pontificating while refusing to cite any sources.[/QUOTE]And here we are: It was and he did, LOL.

Here is a hilarious compilation made by Anton Gerashchenko, an advisor to Ukraine's Minister of Internal Affairs.

[QUOTE]A Russian state TV guest has denied claims made in the past by pundits and officials about the country's plan to take control of Kyiv within three days, at the beginning of the Russia-Ukraine war.

In a video with English subtitles posted on Twitter by Anton Gerashchenko, an advisor to Ukraine's Minister of Internal Affairs, a Russian TV guest is seen speaking about the information that circulated about the war when it began in February of last year including claims that Russia would take Kyiv in a matter of two or three days.

"As the most trivial and such a vivid example to our viewers, during the early days of the special operation, who came up with this thesis that the Russians would capture Kyiv in three days? We have never said such a thing," said the guest in the clip posted by Gerashchenko.

However, Gerashchenko compiled a number of clips added to the same video that showed several Russian pundits and analysts saying that Kyiv would fall quickly to Russia.[/QUOTE][URL]https://www.newsweek.com/russian-state-tv-guest-denies-past-claims-taking-kyiv-three-days-1795732[/URL]

Anton Gerashchenko.

At Gerashchenko_en.

Russian propagandists complain about global misinformation regarding Russia. They say they never threatened to take Kyiv in three days.

I've made a compilation of several things they did say about capturing Kyiv / Ukraine.

[URL]https://x.com/i/status/1649011513259175937[/URL]

Now that it is slowly but surely become obvious to everyone that Ukraine is losing and will not win, I ask this simple question to the serious people here (not the delusional ones):

Why did the collective west force Ukraine to abandon the peace negotiations in Istanbul in March. April 2022 which could have ended the war and saved hundreds of thousands of lives and prevented Ukraine from losing so much more territory? The answer is simple and horrifying. They wanted to make Russia bleed rather than save Ukraine.

I have said this before, and I'll say it again. These people are pure evil, and I hope God never forgives them for taking Ukraine down the primrose path.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2953864]Now that it is slowly but surely become obvious to everyone that Ukraine is losing and will not win, I ask this simple question to the serious people here (not the delusional ones)...[/QUOTE]1) I don't think it's obvious to everyone.

2) Are there actually any serious people here?

Okay, Serious Man:

What is the value of the RF sovereign wealth fund? How long will those assets last at the current rate of expenditure? What percentage of those assets is being spent on the war?

Why is Russia using Iranian drones and North Korean ammo? Why are North Korean soldiers fighting on the front line? What is the capacity of the Russian military industry vs. The Ukrainian?

What percentage of the RF Black Sea fleet remains in Crimea? What is the current capacity of the Kerch bridge? After the destruction of the Feodisia fuel depot, what are the total fuel reserves on Crimea?

What is the status of forces in Kursk oblast? When will Ukrainian forces be expelled by the mighty Russian army?

What is the current situation of the Kadyrovites versus the rest of the North Caucasus? Does it seems stable?

I for one do not believe that a Russian military victory is inevitable. In fact, I think that the utter collapse of the RF is much, much more likely. As I have noted previously, prior to the sudden dissolution of the Russian Empire in 1917 and the USSR in 1991, both political entities seemed strong, and the idea of collapse seemed impossible.

My advice: sell your rubles and try to get a better passport.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2953864]Now that it is slowly but surely become obvious to everyone that Ukraine is losing and will not win, I ask this simple question to the serious people here (not the delusional ones):

Why did the collective west force Ukraine to abandon the peace negotiations in Istanbul in March. April 2022 which could have ended the war and saved hundreds of thousands of lives and prevented Ukraine from losing so much more territory? The answer is simple and horrifying. They wanted to make Russia bleed rather than save Ukraine.

I have said this before, and I'll say it again. These people are pure evil, and I hope God never forgives them for taking Ukraine down the primrose path.[/QUOTE]I would say two contrarian ideas.

A) There were no and there is no Ukrainian side, we are dealing with a junta comprised of sellouts and traitors. Russia is in fact in war with the US.

B) Russian delegation was farcical to an extent. Russia never planned to reach an agreement in 2022.

I don't know the answer to the question of a potential peace deal reached in March 2022 or in May 2022, but not in April as disseminated.

Clearly, several things fell apart: army support was suppressed, agreements with the elites failed, there was no repeat of 2008 scenario with Georgia. Russia had to enter the conflict knowingly unprepared. There were only 80 K servicemen at the front line.

Now we got ten times more at the front line with 1. 5 M total servicemen and growing, and the nuclear doctrine being updated.

[QUOTE=Questner;2954100]I would say two contrarian ideas.

A) There were no and there is no Ukrainian side, we are dealing with a junta comprised of sellouts and traitors. Russia is in fact in war with the US.

B) Russian delegation was farcical to an extent. Russia never planned to reach an agreement in 2022.

I don't know the answer to the question of a potential peace deal reached in March 2022 or in May 2022, but not in April as disseminated.

Clearly, several things fell apart: army support was suppressed, agreements with the elites failed, there was no repeat of 2008 scenario with Georgia. Russia had to enter the conflict knowingly unprepared. There were only 80 K servicemen at the front line.

Now we got ten times more at the front line with 1. 5 M total servicemen and growing, and the nuclear doctrine being updated.[/QUOTE]Totally agree that this is not a war between Ukraine and Russia but between Russia and NATO. And make no mistake about it, NATO means USA. The EU states are satellite USA states for the most part.

The peace talks in Istanbul in 2022 were hijacked by the Brits on the direction of the Americans. Zelensky sold out Ukraine for $$ and destroyed his country but became a very rich man in the process. He will be living in luxury in exile if he manages to get out before the ship sinks. History will judge that corrupt actor very harshly.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2954268]Totally agree that this is not a war between Ukraine and Russia but between Russia and NATO. And make no mistake about it, NATO means USA...[/QUOTE]Moderator: this is paid political propaganda and should be removed from this forum.

The resident Nazis here should accept the Ukrainian Nazis are getting their asses handed to them. The only win-win scenario now is unconditional surrender by NATO proxy Ukraine, allow Rusisa have all of Ukaiane bordering the Black Sea, Poland and Romania to fdivide the western parts and war crimes' trials in Moscow followed by the rope, for Zelensky, and the other gangsters.

[QUOTE=Jarango;2954317]The resident Nazis here should accept the Ukrainian Nazis are getting their asses handed to them. The only win-win scenario now is unconditional surrender by NATO proxy Ukraine, allow Rusisa have all of Ukaiane bordering the Black Sea, Poland and Romania to fdivide the western parts and war crimes' trials in Moscow followed by the rope, for Zelensky, and the other gangsters.[/QUOTE]The collapse of the Russian economy is very likely, maybe inevitable at this point. I suspect there are many on this forum old enough to remember the collapse of the USSR. Also, there are many here who remember the Soviet-Afghan war and its outcome. I acknowledge that you are merely a paid propagandist, but do the similarities with 1989-92 resonate with you in any way?

[QUOTE=Questner;2954100]I would say two contrarian ideas.

A) There were no and there is no Ukrainian side, we are dealing with a junta comprised of sellouts and traitors. Russia is in fact in war with the US.

B) Russian delegation was farcical to an extent. Russia never planned to reach an agreement in 2022.

I don't know the answer to the question of a potential peace deal reached in March 2022 or in May 2022, but not in April as disseminated.

Clearly, several things fell apart: army support was suppressed, agreements with the elites failed, there was no repeat of 2008 scenario with Georgia. Russia had to enter the conflict knowingly unprepared. There were only 80 K servicemen at the front line.

Now we got ten times more at the front line with 1. 5 M total servicemen and growing, and the nuclear doctrine being updated.[/QUOTE]The funniest part about Russians is their insane, insatiable, unbelievable arrogance. For decades, this good for nothing country has claimed that only the US deserves the right to be their worthy nemesis. Why? Because you span several time zones?

Your "invincible" country has lost wars to the Mongols, the Turks, the English, the French, the Japanese, the Germans, the Poles, the Finns, the Afghans, the Chechens -- and is now slated to lose its most fateful war -- to Ukraine. There is no Ukrainian side, huh? I'd say that invisible side is doing quite well by beating the living hell out of you. 670,000 dead and crippled Orcs in less than three years.

Oh, yes and growing with every single day.

But how can you admit getting beaten by Ukraine? Fuck no, we're Russia. We're mighty and invincible, it's got to be the Nato, the US, the collective West, the aliens.

And of course, Russian arrogance can't exist without their phantasmagorical lies. Their propaganda has one rule: go big or go home.

Which is why anyone who takes Questner's numbers seriously should get their head examined.

By Feb 24,2022, the Russians amassed 200,000 troops against Ukraine, not 80,000.

1. 5 millions servicemen? He must've seen it in his sweet dreams. They're paying 3 million rubles for every signed contract. They're importing cannon fodder from North Korea. Half of their "servicemen" are in their 50's and 60's. The wounded get sent back to the frontlines from the hospitals before their treatment is over, even on crutches. They're losing more fodder every month that they manage to replenish. Even 3 M rubles sign up bonus ($37,000, which is a mind-blowing amount for Russians) doesn't yield many takers.

Their nuclear doctrine? Who gives a shit about your saber rattling? No one takes your failed mafia state seriously anymore.

A war with the US? Yeah, right. The war with the US would mean lights out in 2-3 weeks top for Russia, and I'm being generous.

[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2954352]The collapse of the Russian economy is very likely, maybe inevitable at this point. I suspect there are many on this forum old enough to remember the collapse of the USSR. Also, there are many here who remember the Soviet-Afghan war and its outcome. I acknowledge that you are merely a paid propagandist, but do the similarities with 1989-92 resonate with you in any way?[/QUOTE]I'm not sure this fella is a paid propagandist. I mean, to get paid, you must regularly show up for work (like BlahRed, for example), and he doesn't seem to qualify in this department. He's probably just one of those brave Russians who prefers to defend his motherland on this very important mongering site rather than the front lines. Makes perfect sense if you ask me.

[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2954281]Moderator: this is paid political propaganda and should be removed from this forum.[/QUOTE]This dumbass is comical.

[QUOTE=Xpartan;2954445]

A war with the US? Yeah, right. The war with the US would mean lights out in 2-3 weeks top for Russia, and I'm being generous.[/QUOTE]I know you're a complete fucking idiot but I guess no one has informed you that Russia has the world's largest nuclear arsenal. Any country that goes to war with Russia, be it USA or any other will also get destroyed. It's called MAD. Mutually Assured Destruction. I know you were not aware of that since as I have pointed out many times you have a 3rd grade education, but happy to educate you once again. Cheers.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2954832] Any country that goes to war with Russia, be it USA or any other will also get destroyed. [/QUOTE]Then I am wondering, why one of the most often mentioned "Arguments" for Putlers aggression was NATOs expansion towards Russian borders.

How could he be afraid, then?

Must be even more afraid nowadays (and willing to attack neighbouring countries), because Russias borders to NATO states expanded after his invasion of UA.

Your insults disqualify you as a typical rural (uncivilized) American. Russian trolls usually have some better manners (and education).

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2954832]I know you're a complete fucking idiot but I guess no one has informed you that Russia has the world's largest nuclear arsenal. Any country that goes to war with Russia, be it USA or any other will also get destroyed. It's called MAD. Mutually Assured Destruction. I know you were not aware of that since as I have pointed out many times you have a 3rd grade education, but happy to educate you once again. Cheers.[/QUOTE]No one is going to war with you. You're an aggressor state. Not Ukraine, not Nato.

And yet, your fascist mafia-state is threatening Ukraine (a non-nuclear state) and Nato countries with a nuclear strike.

You, degenerates, are claiming that you're at war with Nato, LOL.

Your excuse for a country (that in the last 30 years has lost to Afghans, Chechens and Ukrainians) is now threatening Nato. Nato for fuck's sake!

You must pray 24/7 that serious people in the West don't start taking you seriously.

[QUOTE=ReinerOtto;2954880]

Your insults disqualify you as a typical rural (uncivilized) American. Russian trolls usually have some better manners (and education).[/QUOTE]1. he's not an American. He's a paid Russian propagandist.

2. No, they don't. When they're being exposed, they always respond with name-calling and insults. And I mean ALWAYS, no exceptions.

Quote,

"They fucked up in 2014," Biden said to a friend, according to Woodward. "That's why we are here. We fucked it up".

[URL]https://edition.cnn.com/2024/10/08/politics/bob-woodward-book-war-joe-biden-putin-netanyahu-trump/index.html[/URL]

[QUOTE=Xpartan;2954896]No one is going to war with you. You're an aggressor state. Not Ukraine, not Nato.
.[/QUOTE]What is this YOU non sense? I just educated you that USA and Russia will never ever engage in a DIRECT war because it will mean mutually assured destruction for both. That's why they had a cold war for decades. And that's why America is USING Ukraine as a PROXY to fight Russia now.

I know you are not very sharp, but I broke all that down for you in very easy english. Have a nice day.

[QUOTE=ReinerOtto;2954880]Then I am wondering, why one of the most often mentioned "Arguments" for Putlers aggression was NATOs expansion towards Russian borders.

How could he be afraid, then?

Must be even more afraid nowadays (and willing to attack neighbouring countries), because Russias borders to NATO states expanded after his invasion of UA.

Your insults disqualify you as a typical rural (uncivilized) American. Russian trolls usually have some better manners (and education).[/QUOTE]Please see my reply to Xpartan.

Russia wouldn't tolerate American missiles being placed in Ukraine, hence no NATO expansion into Ukraine. That was a red line.

The Americans wouldn't tolerate Soviet missiles in Cuba. That was their red line.

I hope you can follow?

Why is the stupid fucking War still going on?

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2955017]Please see my reply to Xpartan.
1) Russia wouldn't tolerate American missiles being placed in Ukraine, hence no NATO expansion into Ukraine. That was a red line.
2) The Americans wouldn't tolerate Soviet missiles in Cuba. That was their red line.
[/QUOTE]There is a difference between a blockade (a la Cuba) to prevent missile installation, actually being delivered, and the real invasion of a country, where missiles might be installed.

Obviously, you can not see it.

On board the blocked ships bound to Cuba, there were Russian missiles; USA did not invade Cuba, though.

No American missiles within UA; however, Russia invaded UA.
Obviously, you do not see the difference.

[QUOTE=ReinerOtto;2955073]There is a difference between a blockade (a la Cuba) to prevent missile installation, actually being delivered, and the real invasion of a country, where missiles might be installed.

Obviously, you can not see it.

On board the blocked ships bound to Cuba, there were Russian missiles; USA did not invade Cuba, though.

No American missiles within UA; however, Russia invaded UA.
Obviously, you do not see the difference.[/QUOTE]You are missing the point. Great powers have red lines. Great powers fuck other countries up. Whether some of you guys want to admit it or not, Russia is a great power. Ukraine joining NATO was Russia's red line and not to be crossed.

Russia demanded Ukraine's neutrality and for it to never join NATO. That was not given and anyone that knows anything knows that very well. And for some of you it all started out of the blue on Feb 22nd, 2022. That is not the case. The conflict and war really started in 2014 when the USA and EU engineered a coup that removed the democratically elected President of Ukraine. If you really want to know when the conflict started, look back at 2008 when the war criminal G. W Bush first invited Ukraine to join NATO.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2955082]You are missing the point. Great powers have red lines. Great powers fuck other countries up. Whether some of you guys want to admit it or not, Russia is a great power. Ukraine joining NATO was Russia's red line and not to be crossed.

Russia demanded Ukraine's neutrality and for it to never join NATO. That was not given and anyone that knows anything knows that very well. And for some of you it all started out of the blue on Feb 22nd, 2022. That is not the case. The conflict and war really started in 2014 when the USA and EU engineered a coup that removed the democratically elected President of Ukraine. If you really want to know when the conflict started, look back at 2008 when the war criminal G. W Bush first invited Ukraine to join NATO.[/QUOTE]This is 100% revisiionist lies. Putin's invasion is a war of aggression pure territorial aggrandizement.

Russia is not a "great power" ...it is not great. Its economy is smaller than the US state of New York. Guys who brag about how strong they are, how big their dick is, how many chicks they fucked or how much money they have know, deep in their subconscious, how untrue it all is. True, the RF has thousands of nukes left over from the USSR; however, given the state of the armed forces, how many would actually work is unclear. The greater truth is that the RF is finished as an economic and political entity.

[QUOTE=EnterTheV;2955025]Why is the stupid fucking War still going on?[/QUOTE]Because the last Ukrainian is not yet dead?

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2955112]Because the last Ukrainian is not yet dead?[/QUOTE]You should negociate future payments for your propaganda to be in a hard currency.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2955082] Great powers fuck other countries up. Whether some of you guys want to admit it or not, Russia is a great power. [/QUOTE]Yea, thus Russia has any right to "fuck up UA" simply because Russia is a great power.

Probably, that's it what Putler learned from Adolf.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2955017]Please see my reply to Xpartan.

Russia wouldn't tolerate American missiles being placed in Ukraine, hence no NATO expansion into Ukraine. That was a red line.

The Americans wouldn't tolerate Soviet missiles in Cuba. That was their red line.

I hope you can follow?[/QUOTE]Placement or non-placement of any kind of weaponry in Ukraine could've been negotiated if the degenerate fascist Kremlin regime didn't decide to solve all their problems with a victorious 3-day campaign.

Now, your second army of the world [B]in Ukraine[/B] is in no position to "not tolerate" anything.

What's plan be after your bluff is called?

[QUOTE=Questner;2954955]

"They fucked up in 2014," Biden said to a friend, according to Woodward. "That's why we are here. We fucked it up".

[URL]https://edition.cnn.com/2024/10/08/politics/bob-woodward-book-war-joe-biden-putin-netanyahu-trump/index.html[/URL][/QUOTE]Did you actually read this article, LOL? I don't think so, LOL.

I've always felt that two most capable presidents of the modern times, Clinton and Obama, royally fucked up in international affairs.

In 1992, Clinton pushed Ukraine into the corner demanding, threatening, blackmailing them into giving up their nukes in exchange for the empty declaration that wasn't worth either ink or paper it was printed on.

Obama responded to the 2014 invasion of Crimea with a toothless set of ineffective sanctions that Putin easily skirted with the help of his agents and useful idiots in the West.

Politicians never learn, it seems.

[QUOTE]Ahead of Russias invasion of Ukraine, Biden complained that Obama didnt do enough to stop Putin in 2014, when the Russian leader invaded Crimea.

They fucked up in 2014, Biden said to a friend, according to Woodward. Thats why we are here. We fucked it up. Barack never took Putin seriously.

Biden added, We did nothing. We gave Putin a license to continue! Biden was angry: Well, Im revoking his fucking license![/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]That fucking Putin, Biden said to advisers in the Oval Office not long after Russias invasion of Ukraine, according to Woodward. Putin is evil. We are dealing with the epitome of evil. [/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]Biden confronted Putin with the intelligence twice in December 2021, first in a video conference and then in what Woodward describes as a hot 50-minute call that became so heated that at one point that Putin raised the risk of nuclear war in a threatening way."

Biden responded by reminding Putin that its impossible to win a nuclear war."

"One of the most dramatic scenes in War reveals just how alarmed Biden and his national security team became over the prospect of Putin using nuclear weapons.

By September 2022, US intelligence reports deemed exquisite revealed a deeply unnerving assessment of Putin that he was so desperate about battlefield losses that he might use tactical nuclear weapons in Ukraine.

Based on the alarming new intelligence reports, the White House believed there was a 50% chance Russia would use a tactical nuclear weapon a striking assessment that had skyrocketed up from 5% and then 10%, Woodward reports.

On all channels, get on the line with the Russians, Biden instructed his national security adviser, Jake Sullivan. Tell them what we will do in response, he said, according to Woodward.

The book recounts a tense phone call between Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin and his Russian counterpart in October 2022.

If you did this, all the restraints that we have been operating under in Ukraine would be reconsidered, Austin said to Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu, according to Woodward. This would isolate Russia on the world stage to a degree you Russians cannot fully appreciate.

I dont take kindly to being threatened, Shoigu responded.

Mr. Minister, Austin said, according to Woodward, I am the leader of the most powerful military in the history of the world. I dont make threats.

Two days later, the Russians requested another call. This time, the Russian defense minister dramatically claimed the Ukrainians were planning to use a dirty bomb a false story the US believed the Kremlin was pushing as a pretext to deploy a nuclear weapon.

We dont believe you, Austin said firmly in response, according to Woodward. We dont see any indications of this, and the world will see through this.

Dont do it, he said to Shoigu.

I understand, Shoigu replied.

It was probably the most hair-raising moment of the whole war, Colin Kahl, a senior Pentagon official, later said of the episode."[/QUOTE]Shit, I've got to read this book.

[URL]https://news.usni.org/2017/08/15/u-s-navy-seabees-building-maritime-operations-center-black-sea-coast[/URL]

The above meant moving NATO infrastructure closer to our borders. We will not allow Aegis ([URL]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegis_Ballistic_Missile_Defense_System[/URL]) there or for better anywhere close.

[QUOTE=ReinerOtto;2955146]Yea, thus Russia has any right to "fuck up UA" simply because Russia is a great power.

Probably, that's it what Putler learned from Adolf.[/QUOTE]Again, you are missing the point. I'm not saying it's right. But that is the world we live in, isn't it?

Look at what America did to Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan, Yemen, Syria. The Soviets did similar shit.

No, not because they're bombing homes, destroy apartment buildings, and kill civilians.

No, not because they're bombing homes, destroy apartment buildings, and kill civilians in Kursk, Russia. Just like their fuhrer, they really don't give a shit who to kill.

No, they're unhappy because it's been months since they were paid their special combat bonuses. So they made their grievances known, by writing on one of their bombs.

[QUOTE]"Dear Ministry of Defense, I'm an FAB with UMPK. Soon I will fly to destroy occupiers in Kursk Oblast. I'm upset for my crew, they have not received bonus pay for counterterrorist operations since August. Sort it out! P.S. You can make mistakes, but you can't lie."[/QUOTE]For those who don't know, that last line (You can make mistakes, but you can't lie) is from a speech of the new Minister of Offence Belousov, which has made it into numerous memes. Belousov, just like all of them, lies persistently and profusely.

FAB-500's are 1,100-pound air-dropped bombs guided by the UMPK winged system.

See, every penny in Russia (I mean what's left after the steal) goes into getting the new recruits to sign up for the meatgrinder duties. Some regions pay as much as 3 million rubles, which is almost $40,000--the sum, 99% of Russians will never have earned in their lifetimes. The goal is to get the meat to the front lines. After that, the money train usually stops. Who gives a fuck, they can't leave anyway.

However, I was really surprised that pilots have money issues, too. Unlike totally disposable infantry grunts, pilots are elite. Things are probably going even worse for stepmother-Russia than I previously thought.

[URL]https://x.com/wartranslated/status/1848690497369375083[/URL]

Putin wants to ditch dollars and trade in local currencies. Yet, his failed mafia state can't even provide a smattering of VIP guests with a reliable way of converting their currencies.

What a country!

[QUOTE]Russian President Vladimir Putin is hosting a major summit with more than 20 world leaders whom he's trying to convince to ditch the dollar.

De-dollarization is one of Putin's priorities because trading in local currencies would mean that a heavily sanctioned Russia wouldn't be beholden to the Western US-dollar-dominated global financial order.

But it's not easy to move away from the greenback. The organizers of the BRICS summit have advised foreign attendees to bring cash specifically US dollars and euros to the event in the Russian city of Kazan.

Most Russian banks will only take US dollars or euros which Moscow has deemed "toxic currencies" to exchange for rubles, according to a guide on the summit's website.[/QUOTE][URL]https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/putin-s-dollar-problem-is-on-clear-display-at-the-brics-summit-starting-with-the-moment-guests-land-at-the-airport/ar-AA1sLK7U[/URL]

Everyone knows the video of Ukrainian air force bombing Lugansk on June 2, 2014 - that is using army against own civilian population.

[URL]https://youtu.be/0xp_v7odTrY?si=5c6i0l-Od4O9Z5TZ[/URL]

The second video is Ukrainian TV reporting that the explosions were caused by 'exploding air conditioners' in the building.

[URL]https://youtu.be/88ho3YkaLIk?si=NiU3z2oMMsnXKO-p[/URL]

[QUOTE=Questner;2955453]Everyone knows the video of Ukrainian air force bombing Lugansk on June 2, 2014 - that is using army against own civilian population.

[URL]https://youtu.be/0xp_v7odTrY?si=5c6i0l-Od4O9Z5TZ[/URL]

The second video is Ukrainian TV reporting that the explosions were caused by 'exploding air conditioners' in the building.

[URL]https://youtu.be/88ho3YkaLIk?si=NiU3z2oMMsnXKO-p[/URL][/QUOTE]I'm glad they are a part of Russia now. May all of Ukraine and Russia be at peace soon.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2955731]I'm glad they are a part of Russia now. May all of Ukraine and Russia be at peace soon.[/QUOTE]Yup, hopefully by February or latest March 2025.

The comprehensive strategic security agreement between RF and and. Korea has been ratified. This follows the similar agreement with PRC. The agreement with Iran to follow soon. All countries are neighboring, their combined nuclear, industrial, military and mobilization resource matches NATO's. Without NATO the conflict would never have been even started. I have only recently read that the West as if has been planning to incur a strategic defeat on Russia. That is a good uncut shit indeed, whom they are buying it from?

[QUOTE=Gino02;2956186]Yup, hopefully by February or latest March 2025.[/QUOTE]I think it will take Russia the summer of 2025 to conquer all of the Donbas. There are already moves in the Zaporizhya direction and then of course there is Kherson. Let's see. Hopefully Trump wins and forces the Kiev regime to come to the negotiating table and get to grips with reality, not fantasy like their 'Victory Plan' which even the collective West is laughing at.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2956306]There are already moves in the Zaporizhya direction and then of course there is Kherson.[/QUOTE]Kherson? You expect the aggressors to cross the Dnjepr to the West side? You are joking.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2956306]I think it will take Russia the summer of 2025 to conquer all of the Donbas. There are already moves in the Zaporizhya direction and then of course there is Kherson. Let's see. Hopefully Trump wins and forces the Kiev regime to come to the negotiating table and get to grips with reality, not fantasy like their 'Victory Plan' which even the collective West is laughing at. [/QUOTE]The only thing that can save Russia is a Trump victory, anything else, and there will only be capitulation.

[QUOTE=ReinerOtto;2956307]Kherson? You expect the aggressors to cross the Dnjepr to the West side? You are joking.[/QUOTE]I do expect that, yes. When, I don't know.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2956306]I think it will take Russia the summer of 2025 to conquer all of the Donbas. There are already moves in the Zaporizhya direction and then of course there is Kherson. Let's see. Hopefully Trump wins and forces the Kiev regime to come to the negotiating table and get to grips with reality, not fantasy like their 'Victory Plan' which even the collective West is laughing at.[/QUOTE]Yeah, I am not sure the Zelensky crew is ready to leave. The amount of "fact checking" on the alleged assets he has bought are unreal. The only reason we know about the $1. 1 million jewelry purchase Ms. Zelensky had was because she had the employee fired: [URL]https://thenationonlineng.net/olena-zelenska-spends-1100000-on-cartier-jewelry-gets-sales-employee-fired/[/URL].

I am sure that was just a drop in the bucket. If Trump wins, Zelensky is going to want one helluva big golden parachute.

Not that anyone would admit that this is WW3 now, but has anyone mentioned the North Koreans are fighting with the Russians?

[URL]https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/what-we-know-about-north-korean-troops-joining-russias-war-ukraine-2024-10-21/[/URL]

Thing about Trump is he sold New York real estate and is used to dealing with and negotiating with the rich and powerful. And Kamala? She was going down on the rich and powerful.

This was should have had a negotiated truce two years ago.

[QUOTE=Elvis2008;2956408]
1) The only reason we know about the $1. 1 million jewelry purchase Ms. Zelensky had was because she had the employee fired: [URL]https://thenationonlineng.net/olena-zelenska-spends-1100000-on-cartier-jewelry-gets-sales-employee-fired/[/URL].
2) but has anyone mentioned the North Koreans are fighting with the Russians?
[URL]https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/what-we-know-about-north-korean-troops-joining-russias-war-ukraine-2024-10-21/[/URL]
[/QUOTE]1) You should broaden your view. OR, you should try better to spread very doubtful "information".

Considered to be a fake / lie:

[URL]https://www.newsweek.com/olena-zelenska-first-lady-ukraine-million-dollar-shopping-trip-new-york-cartier-1832373[/URL]

2) Great, you mention it once again. Because the more Russians know about it, the more Putlers domestic image as strong leader will be damaged:

We have a weak president. He is not able to protect "The Motherland" without foreign help.

[QUOTE=ReinerOtto;2956485]1) You should broaden your view. OR, you should try better to spread very doubtful "information".

Considered to be a fake / lie:

[URL]https://www.newsweek.com/olena-zelenska-first-lady-ukraine-million-dollar-shopping-trip-new-york-cartier-1832373[/URL].[/QUOTE]Yes, that fact checking thing comes up again. I am sure not a penny of all that money has been wasted or gone to nazis.

[QUOTE=ReinerOtto;2956485]2) Great, you mention it once again. Because the more Russians know about it, the more Putlers domestic image as strong leader will be damaged:

We have a weak president. He is not able to protect "The Motherland" without foreign help.[/QUOTE]Yes because image versus winning the war is what is important. You just showed me what the typical American Democrat's view on the war is, hurting Putin's image. And by all means, we Democrats want to degrade the image of a guy with nuclear weapons. Yes, that will turn out well.

Let me give you what I call the Democratic douche litmus test and see how you score. Was banning Donald Trump for Twitter smart? That was supposed to hurt his image. Now, keep in mind, that action caused Donald Trump to start Truth Social, and his stake in it is worth $4 billion now.

For the record, I cannot get any Democrat on record to say banning Trump was stupid. And I am sure no Democrat will say Kamala saying NATO was firmly behind Ukraine before this war began was not stupid either.

I will be frank. I think Kamala loses because of how she terribly she handled the hurricane relief efforts. We have all this money for illegal immigrants, Israel and Ukraine to make Putin look badly but the people who lost everything and are trapped and dying. Fuck you, here is $500 and we are going to hand out money to those who traditionally been discriminated against first. And oh yeah, FEMA is out of money too.

Do you see how some people could be offended that you care more about Putin's image than people dying? Oh yeah, I forgot. Only Westerners are people. The Russians are orcs.

[QUOTE=Elvis2008;2956408]Yeah, I am not sure the Zelensky crew is ready to leave. The amount of "fact checking" on the alleged assets he has bought are unreal. The only reason we know about the $1. 1 million jewelry purchase Ms. Zelensky had was because she had the employee fired: [URL]https://thenationonlineng.net/olena-zelenska-spends-1100000-on-cartier-jewelry-gets-sales-employee-fired/[/URL].

I am sure that was just a drop in the bucket. If Trump wins, Zelensky is going to want one helluva big golden parachute.

Not that anyone would admit that this is WW3 now, but has anyone mentioned the North Koreans are fighting with the Russians?

[URL]https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/what-we-know-about-north-korean-troops-joining-russias-war-ukraine-2024-10-21/[/URL]

Thing about Trump is he sold New York real estate and is used to dealing with and negotiating with the rich and powerful. And Kamala? She was going down on the rich and powerful.

This was should have had a negotiated truce two years ago.[/QUOTE]Elvis it takes a lot more than BJ skills to get a Harvard law degree, and to get within striking distance of becoming the POTUS. You know that. It takes a lot more than the same to mop the floor with Trump in an internationally televised debate, though on that point I"m being generous.

And Trump can no more solve the Ukraine war in a day than he can build a wall across the southern border and make Mexico pay for it. For one thing, Europe has a real interest in seeing that Putin isn't awarded for his aggressions. Two, even if Russia were given a favorable truce or settlement, there will long be resistance movements.

It's also disappointing seeing you buddy up to someone like crud red, and if you really consider yourself a conservative, Ronnie is turning in his grave.

Food for thought.

So it"s WW3 because North Korea, the weirdo isolated state sent a few thousand soldiers to fight for Russia? ROFL This speaks more to the desperation of Russian than anything, but word is many of these are tucking and running hoping for asylum in free, prosperous countries. But rather than try to give significance to the insignificant, why don't you go and live in one of these countries?

[QUOTE=Paulie97;2956521]Elvis it takes a lot more than BJ skills to get a Harvard law degree, and to get within striking distance of becoming the POTUS. You know that. It takes a lot more than the same to mop the floor with Trump in an internationally televised debate, though on that point I"m being generous.

And Trump can no more solve the Ukraine war in a day than he can build a wall across the southern border and make Mexico pay for it. For one thing, Europe has a real interest in seeing that Putin isn't awarded for his aggressions. Two, even if Russia were given a favorable truce or settlement, there will long be resistance movements.

It's also disappointing seeing you buddy up to someone like crud red, and if you really consider yourself a conservative, Ronnie is turning in his grave.

Food for thought.[/QUOTE]I think it's the first time I've seen Elvis use the word "Nazis" in reference to Ukraine. Like you said, the alignment of THAT American with clear-cut Russian propagandists like BlahRed is now complete.

I must say, at this point Trumpists' incessant quest to get brainwashed by juvenile, two-bit Kremlin bots shouldn't surprise me anymore, but it still does somehow.

Your comparison of Trump and Putler regarding image is irrelevant.

Trump makes a political show for Americans, who like that. Putler has to be a strong leader to Russian population, to keep his support.

BTW, the Chinese are politely grinning. Let Putler, Europe and the USA be harmed alltogether.

Time will come, when they will use the same "arguments" as Putler, to reach for resources and land: This was Chinese land historically.

Lot of people with Chinese roots are deprived of their rights, . Not to care about any written agreements. As Putler broke the "Budapest Agreement" himself.

How can he expect other nations to keep their agreements with Russia?

[QUOTE=Elvis2008;2956408]Thing about Trump is he sold New York real estate and is used to dealing with and negotiating with the rich and powerful. [b]And Kamala? She was going down on the rich and powerful.[/b][/QUOTE]LOL. Well if Kamala could give BJ's to Putin and Zelensky and get this to go away that would be fantastic.

There are however two problems with that. I imagine becoming president of the USA is kind of like marrying and becoming the matriarch of the household -- once a woman has a wedding ring, the hummers are history. You of all people should know this. Well, if Kamala's elected President she's not going around sucking "rich and powerful" dick anymore.

Secondly, she's reached her "expired by" date. Would you settle for BJ's from Kamala Harris if you controlled the largest nuclear arsenal in the world? Putin is not Bill Clinton. And, worse still, in her current condition, Kamala is uglier than Monica Lewinsky!

[QUOTE=Paulie97;2956523]So it"s WW3 because North Korea, the weirdo isolated state sent a few thousand soldiers to fight for Russia? ROFL This speaks more to the desperation of Russian than anything, but word is many of these are tucking and running hoping for asylum in free, prosperous countries. But rather than try to give significance to the insignificant, why don't you go and live in one of these countries?[/QUOTE]Try living in Donbas for a while and see if you don't think it makes sense to stop the fighting.

[QUOTE=Paulie97;2956523]So it"s WW3 because North Korea, the weirdo isolated state sent a few thousand soldiers to fight for Russia? ROFL This speaks more to the desperation of Russian than anything, but word is many of these are tucking and running hoping for asylum in free, prosperous countries. But rather than try to give significance to the insignificant, why don't you go and live in one of these countries?[/QUOTE]Here is a novel idea, Paulie. You go fight for Ukraine and let Americans volunteer to have their tax dollars be sent to Ukraine or not. I am paying into the USA tax system now Paulie while you are sucking it dry. I don't get why your opinion should count when it is not your money that is being spent.

There was all this money for Ukraine, Israel, and the illegals. Then when it came time to help the people who suffered from hurricanes in North Carolina or the people in Hawaii whose homes were burned down they got a few measly bucks, and you are talking about what Europe wants and Putin's image? You are out of your mind.

All this smack and not one of you could answer the simple question. Was banning Trump from Twitter smart? Even when what you Democratic douches do is so fucking stupid you put $4 billion into Trump's pocket, your mortal enemy, you cannot admit to being wrong about anything. When is this shit going to be over with? When are we going to stop this mindless waste of human life and money? Where is that Ukrainian victory you douches have been talking about for nearly 3 years?

[QUOTE=Paulie97;2956521]Elvis it takes a lot more than BJ skills to get a Harvard law degree, and to get within striking distance of becoming the POTUS. You know that.

Food for thought.[/QUOTE]Food for thought? You think Kamala went to Harvard? Where did you get that bird brained idea?

She went to law school in California, and it was not at Stanford, Berkley, USC, or UCLA. She went to UC Hastings.

And she failed the California bar exam the first time she took it.

What else does she have besides BJ skills?

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2956752]LOL. Well if Kamala could give BJ's to Putin and Zelensky and get this to go away that would be fantastic.[/QUOTE]Oh, I am sure they both have better than her. With all the botox and fillers and makeup, Kamala looks pretty good on TV. There is a photo on the internet of her without making up and she looks like what she really is, a dried up drunk. She is such a lush the best chance the USA has with her is not with a BJ but doing vodka shots against Putin. She would probably lose but maybe a drunk Kamala might say something interesting or funny.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2956752]Well, if Kamala's elected President she's not going around sucking "rich and powerful" dick anymore.[/QUOTE]Well, it is more like kissing ass than sucking dick. The rick Democratic donors who withdrew support from Biden are going to be owed for their support. Only thing Kamala is running for is the money. She does not articulate anything specific. Most of Biden's policies will stay in place because the deep state is really running everything now.

If Kamala is elected, this war keeps on another four years and we go another $1 trillion in debt, and the weapons manufacturers that get that trillion dollars kick back like a $100 million to her by paying her $1 million per speech she reads off a teleprompter. That is the easiest bet in the world.

Have you heard any Democratic douche here mention anything about peace?

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2956754]Try living in Donbas for a while and see if you don't think it makes sense to stop the fighting.[/QUOTE]There are three ways to stop the fighting, and what Donbas residents think or don't think makes no difference at all.

The first option, the party that starts the fighting -- in this clear-cut case, Putin's failed mafia state -- stops the fighting on their own accord. Well, good luck with that.

The second option, the party that resists the aggressor together with their allies make it impossible for the aggressor to continue fighting. It doesn't have to and probably won't be a clear military victory, but rather a combination of external and internal pressure that will end this war (and Russia's imperialistic ambitions with it) once and for all.

The third options, both parties are bled dry and unable to continue, so the fighting stops with an armistice that freezes the conflict for the time being.

As for Donbas residents you're so concerned about, you're too late. There're almost no able men left, as they were all crippled or killed during the first year of war after having been sent to the frontlines to their imminent deaths or disfigurements.

[B]Forced conscription: how Russia wipes out the male population of occupied Donbas[/B]

[URL]https://euromaidanpress.com/2022/04/28/forced-conscription-how-russia-wipes-out-the-male-population-of-occupied-donbas/[/URL]

For the past few months, I have been posting here about how the collective west aka NATO provoked this needless, savage war in Ukraine. I also clearly stated that these bastards do not want Ukraine to win. Their objective is to make Russia bleed until the last Ukrainian. The two are not the same. Now, Ukrainians are saying the same thing as me. I stand vindicated.

[URL]https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/29/world/europe/ukraine-zelensky-russia-war.html[/URL]

A volunteer helping to evacuate people near Pokrovsk, an eastern town that Russian troops are closing in on, said the West just wanted to weaken Russia, not help Ukraine win.

"Soon, there may be no one left even to use the weapons they give us," said the volunteer, Yevhen Tuzov, "because all our Western partners want is for us to fight until the last Ukrainian. ".

[QUOTE=Xpartan;2956764]There are three ways to stop the fighting, and what Donbas residents think or don't think makes no difference at all.

The first option, the party that starts the fighting -- in this clear-cut case, Putin's failed mafia state -- stops the fighting on their own accord. Well, good luck with that.

The second option, the party that resists the aggressor together with their allies make it impossible for the aggressor to continue fighting. It doesn't have to and probably won't be a clear military victory, but rather a combination of external and internal pressure that will end this war (and Russia's imperialistic ambitions with it) once and for all.

The third options, both parties are bled dry and unable to continue, so the fighting stops with an armistice that freezes the conflict for the time being.
[/QUOTE]The first and second options are pipe dreams. There will be an option 4 which will be a bit similar to the third option you listed, as in the fighting will stop and there will be a demilitarized zone and Russia will win an ugly victory and will keep the territory they have captured, which basically means that Ukraine lost which is what I have said from day 1 will happen. Nice to see that even the delusional dumbfucks are coming to grips with reality.

NATO disbanded, the US brings its troops home ending the occupation of Europe as a result of WWII, Russia, Belarus and Ukraine unify in one state and the Federation enters into a strategic agreement with Germany, how about this? This is only the start. Korea unifies in the interest of its people, as well as China and Taiwan finally unify. Israel opts for one state solution where everyone loves each other as their close family and every citizen has the same rights and obligations. The era of peace ensues. The arms are repurposed into plows, and we all live happily thereafter.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2956863][b]It's Good to be Right[/b]

For the past few months, I have been posting here about how the collective west aka NATO provoked this needless, savage war in Ukraine. I also clearly stated that these bastards do not want Ukraine to win. Their objective is to make Russia bleed until the last Ukrainian. The two are not the same. Now, Ukrainians are saying the same thing as me. I stand vindicated.

[URL]https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/29/world/europe/ukraine-zelensky-russia-war.html[/URL]

A volunteer helping to evacuate people near Pokrovsk, an eastern town that Russian troops are closing in on, said the West just wanted to weaken Russia, not help Ukraine win.

"Soon, there may be no one left even to use the weapons they give us," said the volunteer, Yevhen Tuzov, "because all our Western partners want is for us to fight until the last Ukrainian. ".[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2956963]The first and second options are pipe dreams. There will be an option 4 which will be a bit similar to the third option you listed, as in the fighting will stop and there will be a demilitarized zone and Russia will win an ugly victory and will keep the territory they have captured, which basically means that Ukraine lost which is what I have said from day 1 will happen. Nice to see that even the delusional dumbfucks are coming to grips with reality.[/QUOTE]There's a lot of wisdom in what you wrote Brother Blood Red. Tremendous wisdom.

I have two points of disagreement.

First, Xpartan may from time to time be delusional. But he is not a d_k.

Second, you should not gloat in being right. Rather you should fall down on your knees and weep, because the rest of the world wouldn't listen to people like you and me who saw the writing on the wall. You should weep Brother Blood Red, for the hundreds of thousands who died in battle in Ukraine or who will live the rest of their lives maimed. For the poverty and destitution brought about by almost three years of war. And even more for the millions who died in the Middle East as a result of the post-9/11 wars. And for the millions more who were uprooted and had to travel to strange lands and live in squalid refugee camps.

I'll leave you with the Bible Study Tools commentary for John 11:35:

As he was going along to the grave, as he was meditating upon...the greater damnation that would befall the Jews then present, who, notwithstanding the miracle would not believe in him, Jesus wept.

-- The Reverend Tiny

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2957026]There's a lot of wisdom in what you wrote Brother Blood Red. Tremendous wisdom.

Second, you should not gloat in being right. Rather you should fall down on your knees and weep, because the rest of the world wouldn't listen to people like you and me who saw the writing on the wall. You should weep Brother Blood Red, for the hundreds of thousands who died in battle in Ukraine or who will live the rest of their lives maimed.

-- The Reverend Tiny[/QUOTE]Thank you for your post. I apologize if it looked like I was gloating, I wasn't and didn't mean to if it came across like that. I have consistently said that my heart breaks for ordinary Ukrainians caught in this needless savage war provoked by the collective west just to make Russia bleed. I hope and pray that it ends soon. God bless the Ukrainian people. Peace.

[QUOTE=Questner;2957008]NATO disbanded, the US brings its troops home ending the occupation of Europe as a result of WWII, Russia, Belarus and Ukraine unify in one state and the Federation enters into a strategic agreement with Germany, how about this? This is only the start. Korea unifies in the interest of its people, as well as China and Taiwan finally unify. Israel opts for one state solution where everyone loves each other as their close family and every citizen has the same rights and obligations. The era of peace ensues. The arms are repurposed into plows, and we all live happily thereafter.[/QUOTE]In a perfect world.

Accidental post

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2957026]There's a lot of wisdom in what you wrote Brother Blood Red. Tremendous wisdom.[/QUOTE]What's next -- a virtual BJ for this two-bit propagandist on Zoom? Wouldn't surprise me.

If people knew history, even halfheartedly, they would realize that there is REALLY nothing new under the sun. Everything that's about to happen to Russia has already happened before.

Russia never learns. In 21st century it's acting the same way as it did 100 years ago, and 100 years before then, etc.

The Russian equivalent of "keep shooting yourself in the foot" is "stepping on the same rake". And they do it with great enthusiasm--step on the same rake over and over again, because Russia!

Look, I'm not saying that everyone should rush to google-search Russia and 2016. For some it would be a total waste of time.

Propacondoms won't benefit from history lessons for they're simply earning their rubles. And neither will hard-boiled fanatics for they already "know" everything there is to it.

But actual Russophiles and / or "useful idiots" who honestly expect that Putin's failed mafia state may somehow emerge victorious from this idiotic, deplorable and suicidal war they started for no reason, should definitely educate themselves about those "brilliant" Russian foreign and domestic victories of the summer of 1916, and what happened to Russia and the Russians soon after.

Look it up. You know how to read, so use that skill to your advantage.

[QUOTE=Tiny 12;2956752] LOL. Well if Kamala could give BJ's to Putin and Zelensky and get this to go away that would be fantastic. [/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Elvis 2008;2956758] What else does she have besides BJ skills? [/QUOTE]

Oh how Russia's useful idiots here, must be really going senile, like their 78 yr old, Donald J. Trump.

Because clearly, only a few days ago, Trump was gleefully rambling on, [i][b]for 9 minutes[/b][/i], talking about, what many reported as, him no doubt imaging himself, [i][b]"sucking on 'dead man's dick', in the men's showers"[/b][/i], from the late, great, Arnold Palmer's genitals (...kkkk!)

So no need to make up shit about, [i]"Trump sucking Putin's dick or Trump taking it up the ass from Putin...",[/i] he'll probably tell you about it himself, at one of his boring rallies (...kkkk!), given enough [i][b]"verbal rope"[/b][/i], with which to [i][b]"weave",[/b][/i] that sordid Russian sodomy story!

Why do you Trumpsters, think he dances with closefisted, hand pumping action, from side-to-side, like he's [i][b]"jerking-off two dicks simultaneously"...duh!

(...kkkk!)[/b][/i]

[QUOTE=Xpartan;2957165]What's next -- a virtual BJ for this two-bit propagandist on Zoom? Wouldn't surprise me.[/QUOTE]Neoconservative.

[QUOTE=Spidy;2957244]Oh how Russia's useful idiots here, must be going senile, like Donald.

Because clearly, only a few days ago, Trump was gleefully rambling on, [i][b]for 9 minutes[/b][/i], talking about, what many reported as, him no doubt imaging himself, [i][b]"sucking on 'dead man's dick', in the men's showers"[/b][/i], from the late, great, Arnold Palmer's genitals (...kkkk!)

So no need to make up shit about, [i]"Trump sucking Putin's dick or Trump taking up the ass from Putin...",[/i] he'll probably tell you about it himself, at one of his boring rallies (...kkkk!), given enough [i][b]"verbal rope"[/b][/i], with which to [i][b]"weave",[/b][/i] that sordid Russian sodomy story!

Why do you Trumpsters, think he dances with closefisted, hand pumping action, from side-to-side, like he's [i][b]"jerking-off two dicks simultaneously"...duh! (...kkkk!)[/b][/i][/QUOTE]Another neoconservative.

[QUOTE=Xpartan;2957174]Look, I'm not saying that everyone should rush to [b]google-search Russia and 2016[/b]. For some it would be a total waste of time.[/QUOTE] Still dwelling on Russian collusion in 2016. And the Steele Report, which came out in 2016 too. You're probably reminiscing about the part where Trump told those Moscow prostitutes to piss in the same bed Obama slept in. Thanks for writing this down. It's nice to know what's going through a neoconservative's head. You and Spidy have enlightened us!

[QUOTE=Spidy;2957244]Oh how Russia's useful idiots here, must be really going senile, like their 78 yr old, Donald J. Trump.

Because clearly, only a few days ago, Trump was gleefully rambling on, [i][b]for 9 minutes[/b][/i], talking about, what many reported as, him no doubt imaging himself, [i][b]"sucking on 'dead man's dick', in the men's showers"[/b][/i], from the late, great, Arnold Palmer's genitals (...kkkk!)

So no need to make up shit about, [i]"Trump sucking Putin's dick or Trump taking up the ass from Putin...",[/i] he'll probably tell you about it himself, at one of his boring rallies (...kkkk!), given enough [i][b]"verbal rope"[/b][/i], with which to [i][b]"weave",[/b][/i] that sordid Russian sodomy story!

Why do you Trumpsters, think he dances with closefisted, hand pumping action, from side-to-side, like he's [i][b]"jerking-off two dicks simultaneously"...duh!

(...kkkk!)[/b][/i][/QUOTE]If you are going to quote my question, what does Kamala have to offer outside of good BJ skills, then maybe you should answer it. By going on with this rambling anti-Trump nonsense, you just admitted she has nothing beyond BJ skills.

If Kamala wins, there will be millions more who die and trillions more dollars wasted in Ukraine. You Democratic douches have no plan for peace, only for perpetual war.

Xpartan, Please Google Stalingrad and 1943. For extra credit Google Vasily Chuikov.

[QUOTE=Xpartan;2957165]What's next -- a virtual BJ for this two-bit propagandist on Zoom? Wouldn't surprise me.[/QUOTE]Everything I said is coming true. Even the pathetic western mainstream media is reporting the truth now. Why? Because they see the writing on the wall, and they will throw poor Ukraine under the bus and move on to the next conflict. And what will they do then? They will just stop talking about Ukraine. Kinda like they did with Afghanistan. Evil.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2957245] Still dwelling on Russian collusion in 2016. And the Steele Report, which came out in 2016 too. You're probably reminiscing about the part where Trump told those Moscow prostitutes to piss in the same bed Obama slept in. Thanks for writing this down. It's nice to know what's going through a neoconservative's head. You and Spidy have enlightened us![/QUOTE]Sorry, I meant google 'Russia and 1916', not 2016.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2957245] Neoconservative.[/QUOTE]Red Herring.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2957245] Another neoconservative.[/QUOTE]Another red herring.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2957259]Xpartan, Please Google Stalingrad and 1943. For extra credit Google Vasily Chuikov.[/QUOTE]And here's the third one. Feeling generous today?

Washington's Position: What is the Key Factor for Ending the War in Ukraine. Quoted below.

Recently, media publications have given the impression that almost the entire world wants the war in Ukraine to end along the front line as soon as possible, and only "one warrior in the field" Volodymyr Zelensky is against it.

Thus, there is a known Chinese-Brazilian initiative, which provides for stopping the war along the front line. It is supported to varying degrees by other countries of the global South. Vladimir Putin spoke positively about it. But Zelensky criticized it.

US presidential candidate from the Republican Party Donald Trump and his team also say that they will very quickly end the war in Ukraine by stopping it along the front line. But Zelensky spoke out categorically against this, saying that he will not make any territorial compromises and is ready to fight until reaching the 1991 borders (in the interpretation of Andriy Yermak. Until reaching the demarcation line of February 2022).

Finally, the media close to the US Democratic Party, whose candidate Kamala Harris is opposing Trump in the elections, have recently been pursuing the line that the Joe Biden administration and the leaders of other Western countries are leaning towards the need to end the war and start negotiations with the Russian Federation, but Zelensky is categorically against it and is pressuring Biden to give permission to strike on Russian territory, invite Ukraine to NATO and provide the Ukrainian Armed Forces with all possible weapons. The White House refuses to do this, which "stuns" the belligerent Zelensky.

Yesterday's articles in the Economist and the New York Times are indicative in this regard, stating that the West does not have enough weapons to help the Ukrainian Armed Forces recapture territories, and that in the event of a long war, Ukraine may run out of weapons before the Russian Federation and suffer defeat.

Various reasons are given for Zelensky's refusal to engage in dialogue on stopping the war along the front lines. For example, fears of Ukrainian discontent, unwillingness to end the war without receiving clear security guarantees in the form of membership or at least an invitation to NATO, etc.

Many of these reasons are clearly far-fetched. For example, it is very doubtful that the Ukrainian society, tired of the war, will be very outraged by its end, which we wrote about in detail. And as for membership and invitation to NATO, it is obvious that while the war is going on, the probability of this is close to zero. And only after the end of the war can we talk about some real movement towards the Alliance.

But even this is not the main reason to doubt the veracity of the thesis "everyone, including the United States, is for the earliest possible end to the war along the front line and only Zelensky is against it. ".

The main thing is that such a formulation in itself is completely insane.

You can have different attitudes towards the managerial and intellectual abilities of Zelensky and Yermak, but they are clearly not suicidal. And therefore it is impossible to imagine a situation in which the West forces Kiev to stop the war along the front line, hinting that it is running out of weapons and money, but Zelensky resists. After all, it is obvious to everyone that without the help of the West, Ukraine will be defeated and further resistance will be possible only in the format of a guerrilla war.

Therefore, if Zelensky takes such a position, it means that Washington supports it. This means that the real (and not the media) position of the Biden administration is to continue the war further. And the discussion there is only on the question of how to do this: expand military aid and NATO's participation in the war in general, without fear of crossing Putin's "red lines", or exercise caution in order to prevent a direct clash between the US and Russia with the risk of a nuclear war.

As for publications in the media close to the Democratic Party that Washington wants peace, but Zelensky stands his ground, this could simply be a staged pre-election melodrama aimed at undermining Trump's thesis that Biden and Harris are leading the United States to World War III. Or it could be a broadcast of the position of the representatives of the "peace party" in the Biden administration, which is currently not dominant in the White House.

However, if the situation changes and the US authorities take the position of ending the war along the front line, then this will be an 80% solution to the issue. 20% will remain for agreeing on the terms of the ceasefire. This will be very difficult (since these conditions are opposite for Ukraine and the Russian Federation), but possible. The United States has a decisive influence on Kiev, as well as on its allies in Europe. And therefore Washington has many levers to encourage both the Ukrainian authorities and the Europeans (if they are against it, which is unlikely) to compromise. And the Kremlin (if it starts to slow down the process) can be influenced through China and other countries of the global South.

Will the US position on the war in Ukraine change?

Far from certain. It is not even a fact that this will happen in the event of a victory for Trump, who promises to "end the war in 24 hours. " The Republican Party has many of its own "hawks" who call for an even more radical policy than Biden. And the comments of Trump's foreign policy advisers are contradictory. On the one hand, they advocate ending the war in Ukraine along the front line, on the other hand, they threaten to tighten sanctions against Russia, China and Iran as much as possible, which may lead not to peace, but to a rapid escalation.

But in general, a change (or no change) in the US position depends on which concept wins in the circles of the American elites.

Now the dominant concept there is that continuing the war in Ukraine is beneficial for the US and at the same time not dangerous.

On February 24,2023, on the anniversary of the invasion, Politico published a huge text in which Biden administration officials described in detail what happened on the eve of the start of a full-scale war. From their statements, it follows that they knew about Putin's plans to attack Ukraine since the fall of 2021. They were also fully aware that the proposals put forward by Moscow in December 2021 to the US and NATO to agree not to expand the Alliance to the east and not to include Ukraine in NATO were essentially an ultimatum, the refusal to comply with which would lead to a Russian invasion.

However, in the entire huge text about the discussions in the US on the eve of the invasion, not a single comment mentioned the idea: maybe it's worth signing an agreement with the Russians that Ukraine will not be accepted into NATO? After all, it's a pity for the Ukrainians, many people will die. Especially since we ourselves don't really want to accept Ukraine into NATO and are not going to fight with Russia over it.

Judging by the article, no one even thought of such a thing, even as a proposal for discussion.

Why? The most logical answer: the US authorities saw the Russian invasion of Ukraine not as a threat to themselves, for the sake of preventing which it would be necessary to make some compromises with the Russian Federation, but as a unique opportunity. An opportunity to solve many problems at once.

Firstly, to draw its geopolitical opponent (Russia) into a war of attrition. Moreover, the Kremlin got involved in it on its own initiative, which created an extremely convenient pretext for Washington to introduce sanctions against the Russian Federation, as well as to firmly tie Europe to itself, cutting off its ties with Russia, the development of which in the long term could lead to the EU moving away from the US. The invasion of Ukraine almost eliminated this very big threat for Washington.

Secondly, to weaken its two main economic competitors: China and Europe. The EU was seriously hit by the severance of economic ties with Russia (on which the US also makes good money, replacing Russian gas with American), and Beijing is losing its position on the European market, since the Europeans, who found themselves in a tight relationship with the US due to the war in Ukraine, are unable to refuse Washington's imposition of protective duties on Chinese goods.

At the same time, for the proponents of this concept, the risks of war for the United States do not seem too great.

The American army is not participating in the war. The Ukrainian Armed Forces are fighting against the Russian Federation. And any outcome of the war for the United States, from the point of view of the supporters of this concept, will not be critical. If Russia is defeated and Putin is overthrown. Very good. The war will go "long" - also not bad, Russia will continue to be exhausted. Moscow will win and conquer Ukraine. Bad, very unpleasant, but not fatal. In the end, the United States survived the victory of the Taliban in Afghanistan. They can also survive the defeat of Ukraine, the occupation of which will hang like weights on Moscow's feet, forcing Russia to spend huge resources on it. And Europe, frightened by the Russian threat, will be even more closely tied to the United States and economically weakened even more. In fear of a new war, investors will speed up the withdrawal of money from the EU to America. And if another flare-up occurs in Asia. In Taiwan, between India and Pakistan, or in Korea. Then huge Asian money will flow to the United States. America will become an island of stability in the raging bloody world of wars of the future. Like Elysium from the famous science fiction movie. Protected by two oceans, nuclear weapons and a powerful navy.

However, this concept has its opponents. This is the so-called "peace party" in the West, whose positions have been strengthening lately, although they are not yet dominant.

The main argument of the "peace party" supporters is that the continuation of the war in Ukraine creates high risks of NATO being drawn into it, which is fraught with the threat of a nuclear war that would destroy, among other things, the American "Elysium".

They also believe that the continuation of the war carries the risk of defeat and capitulation of Ukraine. Which will not go smoothly for the West, undermining the trust of its allies around the world. The "peace party" supporters see stopping the war along the front line as a way to guarantee that there will be no defeat or capitulation of Ukraine. The country will retain its statehood, army, access to the sea, prospects for joining the EU and even (if agreements are reached with the Russian Federation) NATO.

In addition, the West's growing financial problems. In particular, with its huge foreign debt and money supply. Do not allow it to increase military spending without the risk of destabilizing the economy or without significantly reducing social spending.

There are also supporters of the point of view that Russia. Even with Putin at its helm. Can and should be included in the global West, turning it into the global North, which, given Russia's natural resources and nuclear arsenal, will become an impenetrable and self-sufficient fortress.

In addition, in Europe, especially in Germany and Italy, there are many who want to end the war as soon as possible in order to restore economic ties with the Russian Federation.

Let us repeat that the position of the "party of peace" is not yet dominant in the West, but its influence is growing.

And which side the scales will tip depends not so much on the results of the US elections (although they will certainly have an impact), but on the more global choice of strategy for the future that Western elites face.

The first option is to finally choose the "Elysium" strategy, and then the war does not need to be stopped, but, on the contrary, it needs to be constantly fueled. And Zelensky's statements about "war to the bitter end" fit into this strategy, since they provide an argument against ending the war along the front line: Ukraine itself does not agree with this, and we cannot force it.

The second option is to reach agreements with non-Western countries on a new world order with a new system of global security (if, of course, non-Western countries, including the Russian Federation, are ready for this). And then the war in Ukraine will have to be stopped, although this will be very difficult.

The global "war party", whose representatives are in Ukraine, the West and Russia, will try to torpedo any attempts to end the fighting, as has happened more than once in the past.

However, a change in the US position on the war in Ukraine will certainly be of great importance and will allow the path to its end to begin.

[QUOTE=Questner;2957427]Washington's Position: What is the Key Factor for Ending the War in Ukraine....[/QUOTE]The Key factor is for the invading Russians to leave and go back to their own country.

I hope that someone of you who has real experience in UA can give me some good advice!

I met via SA a woman (30+ yrs) from Kyiv with whom I'm in touch now for nearly 2 months, lots of msg on Wapp, also often we do calls and video talks.

We should meet in the following days, and when she went to pick up her passport, she was told at the migration office that she's not allowed. Permitted to travelling out of the country because she has a credit / loan at a bank.

And until is not settled she cannot leave Ukraine.

That's bit weird, also because loan had to be settled within next 10 days, otherwise bank will take the flat.

Is it possible that such a situation really exists?

[QUOTE=Mmusic;2957682]I hope that someone of you who has real experience in UA can give me some good advice!

I met via SA a woman (30+ yrs) from Kyiv with whom I'm in touch now for nearly 2 months, lots of msg on Wapp, also often we do calls and video talks.

We should meet in the following days, and when she went to pick up her passport, she was told at the migration office that she's not allowed. Permitted to travelling out of the country because she has a credit / loan at a bank.

And until is not settled she cannot leave Ukraine.

That's bit weird, also because loan had to be settled within next 10 days, otherwise bank will take the flat.

Is it possible that such a situation really exists?[/QUOTE]On the surface it sounds like a scam. But see "Can I not be allowed to travel because of debts" here.

[URL]https://visitukraine.today/blog/3636/leaving-ukraine-in-2024-what-are-the-reasons-why-women-may-be-refused-to-cross-the-border[/URL]#google_vignette.

She may be telling the truth. Proceed with caution, if you decide to proceed. The 10 days sounds like a big red flag, especially if she wants you to come up with the money to settle the debt.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2957725]On the surface it sounds like a scam. But see "Can I not be allowed to travel because of debts" here.

[URL]https://visitukraine.today/blog/3636/leaving-ukraine-in-2024-what-are-the-reasons-why-women-may-be-refused-to-cross-the-border[/URL]#google_vignette.

She may be telling the truth. Proceed with caution, if you decide to proceed. The 10 days sounds like a big red flag, especially if she wants you to come up with the money to settle the debt.[/QUOTE]Agree with this, this is almost certainly a scam.

[QUOTE=Mmusic;2957682]
I met via SA a woman (30+ yrs) from Kyiv with whom I'm in touch now for nearly 2 months, lots of msg on Wapp, also often we do calls and video talks.

We should meet in the following days, and when she went to pick up her passport, she was told at the migration office that she's not allowed. [/QUOTE]I understand, you were not personally in Kyiv with her, but she only told you about the issues.

Then most likely it is a scam. I lived and worked about 5 yrs in UA, before Russian invasion, and I was very impressed about the scammers creativity to draw money.

From Americans. I even had a good friend, centrefold on the website of a well known love agency, also participating in meetings with US boys on a trip to UA, to find a wife.

Who told me about some very smart tricks.

Anyway, you might have won the Grand Prize in the lottery, thus you might suggest, to deliver the required cash to repay the loan, but, not being stupid, you will only do it personally.

To the bank with her. Of course, you will come to Kyiev, for that. Which means, on short term a flight to Warshaw (PL), and then to take the train.

In case, she is serious, she will be impressed about your smartness.

[QUOTE=Mmusic;2957682]I hope that someone of you who has real experience in UA can give me some good advice!

I met via SA a woman (30+ yrs) from Kyiv with whom I'm in touch now for nearly 2 months, lots of msg on Wapp, also often we do calls and video talks.

We should meet in the following days, and when she went to pick up her passport, she was told at the migration office that she's not allowed. Permitted to travelling out of the country because she has a credit / loan at a bank.

And until is not settled she cannot leave Ukraine.

That's bit weird, also because loan had to be settled within next 10 days, otherwise bank will take the flat.

Is it possible that such a situation really exists?[/QUOTE]Yes, it's possible, but how does it help you?

What's PROBABLE, rather than possible, is that it's a scam. Her mortgage needs to be settled within 10 days, and yet she's going to waist her precious time to meet you abroad? Really?

Even if this looming foreclosure is true, she's still using you as a meal ticket. Does it sit right with you?

And by the way what Reiner suggested below (walking into the bank together) wouldn't be a proof of anything. A good con can include this arrangement.

Look, if you're in love, nothing I say matters. But here is what I'd do.

Tell her you're sorry, but you have a lot of financial obligations and don't have that kind of money available. The next question out of her mouth will be how much you can spare.

Try it and see for yourself.

[QUOTE=VinDici;2957600]The Key factor is for the invading Russians to leave and go back to their own country.[/QUOTE]Yep. The truth is simple and short. It doesn't need many letters.

What Questner 'forgot' to mention is that his self-serving, long-winded quote was lifted from a pro-Putin garbage sheet, which, in turn, is a translation of another treacherous garbage sheet helmed by sanctioned in Ukraine Putin's mouthpiece Ihor Huzhva. No surprise, Questner chose to omit the attributions.

[URL]https://vpk.name/en/935140_washingtons-position-what-is-the-key-factor-for-ending-the-conflict-in-ukraine-countryua-ukraine.html[/URL]

[URL]https://strana.news/ukr/news/474390-shcho-vpline-na-zavershennja-vijni-v-ukrajini-kljuchovi-faktori.html[/URL]

[URL]https://imi.org.ua/en/news/zelensky-put-into-effect-decision-of-nsdc-on-sanctions-against-shariyiv-and-guzhva-i40818[/URL]

[QUOTE=Mmusic;2957682]I hope that someone of you who has real experience in UA can give me some good advice!

I met via SA a woman (30+ yrs) from Kyiv with whom I'm in touch now for nearly 2 months, lots of msg on Wapp, also often we do calls and video talks.

We should meet in the following days, and when she went to pick up her passport, she was told at the migration office that she's not allowed. Permitted to travelling out of the country because she has a credit / loan at a bank.

And until is not settled she cannot leave Ukraine.

That's bit weird, also because loan had to be settled within next 10 days, otherwise bank will take the flat.

Is it possible that such a situation really exists?[/QUOTE]Anything can happen to your account now in Ukraine: it can be wiped out, arrested, blocked etc. However, under no circumstances you should send even a cent "there"! This is not negotiable!

[QUOTE=Mmusic;2957682]I hope that someone of you who has real experience in UA can give me some good advice!

I met via SA a woman (30+ yrs) from Kyiv with whom I'm in touch now for nearly 2 months, lots of msg on Wapp, also often we do calls and video talks.

We should meet in the following days, and when she went to pick up her passport, she was told at the migration office that she's not allowed. Permitted to travelling out of the country because she has a credit / loan at a bank.

And until is not settled she cannot leave Ukraine.

That's bit weird, also because loan had to be settled within next 10 days, otherwise bank will take the flat.

Is it possible that such a situation really exists?[/QUOTE]When will you guys learn!! Everything about Ukraine is one big scam, cut your losses and move on.

[QUOTE=Mmusic;2957682]I hope that someone of you who has real experience in UA can give me some good advice!

I met via SA a woman (30+ yrs) from Kyiv with whom I'm in touch now for nearly 2 months, lots of msg on Wapp, also often we do calls and video talks.

We should meet in the following days, and when she went to pick up her passport, she was told at the migration office that she's not allowed. Permitted to travelling out of the country because she has a credit / loan at a bank.

And until is not settled she cannot leave Ukraine.

That's bit weird, also because loan had to be settled within next 10 days, otherwise bank will take the flat.

Is it possible that such a situation really exists?[/QUOTE]You are indeed being scammed.

Not that this is an eye-opening article, but it nicely confirms what we already know. A peace treaty with the current Russian fascist government is a fantasy. Any potential agreement with Putin will be broken at the time of his choosing and will eventually wipe Ukraine off the face of the earth.

Of course, it would be nice if the US stopped handcuffing Ukraine in their fight against the brutal fascist regime that intentionally targets hospitals and apartment buildings. It's unfathomable for the US to prohibit a warring nation from hitting the enemy wherever needed, including targets deep inside the RF.

Still, the article is a timely reminder that the world hasn't given up on Ukraine as Russian propacondoms and useful idiots would have us believe. Far from it.

[B]The Price of Principle Is Dwarfed by the Cost of Capitulation in Ukraine[/B]

[QUOTE]We must never forget how this war began. For years, Russian President Vladimir Putin had harassed and assaulted the independent nation-state of Ukraine. On February 24, 2022, he crossed the line into all-out invasion, and the Kremlin started the largest war in Europe since World War II.

When the largest military in Europe becomes a force of aggression, the whole continent feels the shock. When a permanent member of the UN Security Council tries to deny self-rule to more than 40 million people, the whole world feels the blow. And when a dictator puts his imperial fantasies ahead of the rights of a free people, the whole international system feels the outrage.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]Ukraine matters to U.S. security for four blunt reasons. Putin's war is a direct threat to European security, a clear challenge to our NATO allies, an attack on our shared values, and a frontal assault on the rules-based international order that keeps us all safe.

[b]Yet after nearly 1000 days of war, Putin hasn't achieved a single one of his strategic objectives. Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky didn't flee. Kyiv didn't fall. And Ukraine didn't fold.

Instead, Russia has paid a staggering price for Putin's imperial folly, with hundreds of thousands of Russian casualties since February 2022 and more than $200 billion squandered. According to the Center for Strategic and International Studies, Russian losses in just the first year of Putin's war were more than Moscow's losses in all of its conflicts since World War II combined.[/b]

Ukraine has suffered terribly at Putin's hands. But as I saw again in Kyiv last week, Ukraine stands unbowed and even strengthened. Ukraine's fight began with soldiers setting tank traps on the streets of Kyiv and ordinary citizens making Molotov cocktails to defend their homes. It continues today with a battle-tested Ukrainian military and security forces and a roaring Ukrainian defense industrial base. Ukrainian factories are now pumping out some of the best drones in the world, and experienced Ukrainian air defenders are protecting their forces and their families.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE] The spirit of Ukraine has inspired the world. It has reminded us all to never take our freedom for granted. We fully understand the moral chasm between aggressor and defender. We will not be gulled by the frauds and falsehoods of the Kremlins apologists. And we will continue to defend the Ukrainian peoples right to live in security and freedom.

Putin's assault is a warning. It is a sneak preview of a world built by tyrants and thugs, a chaotic, violent world carved into spheres of influence; a world where bullies trample their smaller neighbors; and a world where aggressors force free people to live in fear.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]Ukraine does not belong to Putin. Ukraine belongs to the Ukrainian people. And Moscow will never prevail in Ukraine.

[b]Putin thought Ukraine would surrender. He was wrong. Putin thought our democracies would cave. He was wrong. Putin thought the free world would cower. He was wrong. And Putin thinks he will win. He is wrong.[/b][/QUOTE][URL]https://www.foreignaffairs.com/ukraine/price-principle-dwarfed-cost-capitulation-ukraine[/URL]

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2957725]On the surface it sounds like a scam. But see "Can I not be allowed to travel because of debts" here.

[URL]https://visitukraine.today/blog/3636/leaving-ukraine-in-2024-what-are-the-reasons-why-women-may-be-refused-to-cross-the-border[/URL]#google_vignette.

She may be telling the truth. Proceed with caution, if you decide to proceed. The 10 days sounds like a big red flag, especially if she wants you to come up with the money to settle the debt.[/QUOTE]Well, she sent me all the documentation.

Loan contract with the bank, a letter from the bailiff that she is not allowed to leave the country, a notice from PrivatBank with all credit infos and that nothing has been paid for 3 months.

She also sent me passport copy and travel insurance.

In loan credit also I was able to see about 10 days notice, if is not paid either interests or the loan instalment / s.

Everything looks a bit unusual and I don't know if it's all real or if it's such a well-prepared scam. Your link was helpful, and seeing others opinion that is scam makes my doubts still being strong.

[QUOTE=ReinerOtto;2957766]I understand, you were not personally in Kyiv with her, but she only told you about the issues.

Then most likely it is a scam. I lived and worked about 5 yrs in UA, before Russian invasion, and I was very impressed about the scammers creativity to draw money.

From Americans. I even had a good friend, centrefold on the website of a well known love agency, also participating in meetings with US boys on a trip to UA, to find a wife.

Who told me about some very smart tricks.

Anyway, you might have won the Grand Prize in the lottery, thus you might suggest, to deliver the required cash to repay the loan, but, not being stupid, you will only do it personally.

To the bank with her. Of course, you will come to Kyiev, for that. Which means, on short term a flight to Warshaw (PL), and then to take the train.

In case, she is serious, she will be impressed about your smartness.[/QUOTE]True, I haven't been in Kyiv, at the moment even I cannot go there since what's sure is that I can't and won't cancel my working obligations and travels. And she knows that. And as one possible solution can be also that I go to Kyiv, when it will be doable.

Like I sent to Tiny12 in reply, she supplied me with all documentation, so, or the scam is really that well prepared or her issue w bank loan / travel ban is real. Feeling like Hamlet with "To be, or not to be" :)))

[QUOTE=Xpartan;2957775]Yes, it's possible, but how does it help you?

What's PROBABLE, rather than possible, is that it's a scam. Her mortgage needs to be settled within 10 days, and yet she's going to waist her precious time to meet you abroad? Really?

Even if this looming foreclosure is true, she's still using you as a meal ticket. Does it sit right with you?

And by the way what Reiner suggested below (walking into the bank together) wouldn't be a proof of anything. A good con can include this arrangement.

Look, if you're in love, nothing I say matters. But here is what I'd do.

Tell her you're sorry, but you have a lot of financial obligations and don't have that kind of money available. The next question out of her mouth will be how much you can spare.

Try it and see for yourself.[/QUOTE]I told her I cannot send her anything until I don't check all this matter and because of our / my other financial obligation. Which are in this very moment true, due to our upcoming 2 music projects payments. And she didn't ask anything. Only that she borrowed something from her mom, and that she will see to get more from some friends.

But stays that she is continuing with communication with me, in the sense of not keep asking for sending money.

Thanks for your view!

[QUOTE=Tiny 12;2957245]Neoconservative.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Elvis 2008;2957246]If you are going to quote my question, what does Kamala have to offer outside of good BJ skills, then maybe you should answer it. By going on with this rambling anti-Trump nonsense, you just admitted she has nothing beyond BJ skills.

If Kamala wins, there will be millions more who die and trillions more dollars wasted in Ukraine. You Democratic douches have no plan for peace, only for perpetual war.[/QUOTE]

Trump appears to literally jerk-off his microphone and gives it a a blow-job, like he's sucking Putin's dick, at his latest Wisconsin rally.

[b]Trump shows Wisconsin, how he likes to suck Russian shrimp dicks, using his microphone[/b] {...my interpretation...} [url]https://youtu.be/pAjbY5trGdE?t=188[/URL]

Did I not tell you useful Russian idiots, [i][b]Trump loves sucking dick and he would do it at one of his rallies...eh Voilà! (...kkkk!)[/b][/i]

[QUOTE=Tiny 12;2957245]You're probably reminiscing about the part where Trump told those Moscow prostitutes to piss in the same bed Obama slept in. ... [/QUOTE]

The moment in the video, that Trump opens his mouth, to take "microphone head", had to be him, reminiscing about the part where those so called hookers, after no doubt, rolling around in said pissed upon Obama bed, soon thereafter had Trump open his mouth and take [i][b]a nice golden shower. (...kkkk!)[/b][/i]

And we all know how much Trump loves gold, golden toilets and golden showers apparently! [i][b] (...kkkk!) [/b][/i]

[QUOTE=Mmusic;2958173]Everything looks a bit unusual and I don't know if it's all real or if it's such a well-prepared scam.[/QUOTE]Typical internet romance scam, she was grooming you from the beginning, all lovey lovey with future plans etc. And all of the sudden a financial issue arises. Cut her off she is a waste of time.

[QUOTE=Spidy;2958199]Trump appears to literally jerk-off his microphone and gives it a a blow-job, like he's sucking Putin's dick, at his latest Wisconsin rally.

[b]Trump shows Wisconsin, how he likes to suck Russian shrimp dicks, using his microphone[/b] {...my interpretation...} [url]https://youtu.be/pAjbY5trGdE?t=188[/URL]

Did I not tell you useful Russian idiots, [i][b]Trump loves sucking dick and he would do it at one of his rallies...eh Voil! (...kkkk!)[/b][/i]



The moment in the video, that Trump opens his mouth, to take "microphone head", had to be him, reminiscing about the part where those so called hookers, after no doubt, rolling around in said pissed upon Obama bed, soon thereafter had Trump open his mouth and take [i][b]a nice golden shower. (...kkkk!)[/b][/i]

And we all know how much Trump loves gold, golden toilets and golden showers apparently! [i][b] (...kkkk!) [/b][/i][/QUOTE]Please don't make fun of old people. Sometimes they can make involuntary movements where they appear to be mimicking fellatio. At least he doesn't dry hump every attractive woman he gets close to, like your hero Joe Biden. And, unlike Kamala, he doesn't actually perform fellatio to further his political or foreign policy goals, to our knowledge. Before you get started, Trump hasn't randomly grabbed a pussy in over 10 years.

Anyway, you are off topic. I was able to vote this year in the USA Elections, and it wasn't for Trump or Harris. But if Trump is elected, the bright spot will be Ukraine. He might just play a part in ending this war, and the bloodshed and upheaval that go with it. Harris on the other hand is more likely to want to continue to fight Russia to the last Ukrainian.

[QUOTE=Mmusic;2958179]I told her I cannot send her anything until I don't check all this matter and because of our / my other financial obligation. Which are in this very moment true, due to our upcoming 2 music projects payments. And she didn't ask anything. Only that she borrowed something from her mom, and that she will see to get more from some friends.

But stays that she is continuing with communication with me, in the sense of not keep asking for sending money.

Thanks for your view![/QUOTE]Well, it sounds like that problem solved itself, due to the music projects. Hope you'll check back later and let us know how it all turned out. [URL]Seeking.com[/URL] can be a minefield!

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2958279]Please don't make fun of old people. Sometimes they can make involuntary movements where they appear to be mimicking fellatio. At least he doesn't dry hump every attractive woman he gets close to, like your hero Joe Biden. And, unlike Kamala, he doesn't actually perform fellatio to further his political or foreign policy goals, to our knowledge. Before you get started, Trump hasn't randomly grabbed a pussy in over 10 years.

Anyway, you are off topic.[/QUOTE]Trump's fondness for Putin's dick is not off-topic. It's THE reason why Putin is feeding the meat grinder with 1,500 Russians DAILY in order to grab as much land as possible--all in his gamble that Trump comes out on top tomorrow.

And of course, it's totally OK to make crude jokes of some old people (and women too), but not the others. But now, I guess, I'm off topic, so I'll stop.

[QUOTE=Xpartan;2958046]Not that this is an eye-opening article, but it nicely confirms what we already know. A peace treaty with the current Russian fascist government is a fantasy. Any potential agreement with Putin will be broken at the time of his choosing and will eventually wipe Ukraine off the face of the earth.

Of course, it would be nice if the US stopped handcuffing Ukraine in their fight against the brutal fascist regime that intentionally targets hospitals and apartment buildings. It's unfathomable for the US to prohibit a warring nation from hitting the enemy wherever needed, including targets deep inside the RF.
[/QUOTE]This post of yours shows that you have ZERO understanding of international relations, geo politics and realpolitik. You quoted Austin, but you clearly don't know that this same individual openly told us over 2 years ago what the USA objective is in this needless war and he was very blunt about it. He said that the objective was to WEAKEN Russia. He said NOTHING about Ukraine winning. What idiots like you still don't get is that the USA and NATO and the collective west don't want to help Ukraine win. Because they know Ukraine CANNOT win. Ukraine winning would need NATO to get fully involved, boots on the ground. Ukraine isn't important enough for them to do that. They used and sacrificed Ukraine to try to weaken Russia, plain and simple, which is horrific. But tools like you still don't get it which I find humorous although in your case, not really.

[QUOTE=Tiny 12;2958279]Please don't make fun of old people. Sometimes they can make involuntary movements where they appear to be mimicking fellatio. At least he doesn't dry hump every attractive woman he gets close to, like your hero Joe Biden. And, unlike Kamala, [b]he doesn't actually perform fellatio to further his political or foreign policy goals, to our knowledge.[/b] Before you get started, Trump hasn't randomly grabbed a pussy in over 10 years.[/QUOTE] [i][b](...kkkk!)[/b][/i] I understand, you gullible MAGA folk, tend to turn a blind-eye or pretend not to see, the majority of political "cock sucking", ass kissing or talking it "up the the shaft", that Trump does on the regular, for his fascist authoritarian tyrant buddies in far-right regimes, as years of Trump brainwashing tends to do that to weak minds.

But FEAR NOT, that's why, the good folk here, are here to always remind you, of what his "cock sucking" proclivities look like. See pic below, if still unsure of what this looks like! [i][b](...kkkk!)[/b][/i]

[QUOTE=Tiny 12;2958279]Anyway, you are off topic. ...[/QUOTE]

Since when, was anyone "off topic", in an ISG styled [i]"Stupid Shit in {...fill-in-the-country-or-city...}"[/i] type forum or thread? [i][b](...kkkk!)[/b][/i]

Only those that are out of options, for defending [i][b]Trump sucking on Putin's "shrimp dick cock-tails",[/b][/i] would think, such an apt post for Trump's penchant for sucking Russian cock and Russian golden showers, was so called, [i][b]"off topic."[/b][/i]

[QUOTE=Spidy;2958406][i][b](...kkkk!)[/b][/i] I understand, you gullible MAGA folk, tend to turn a blind-eye or pretend not to see, the majority of political "cock sucking", ass kissing or talking it "up the the shaft", that Trump does on the regular, for his fascist authoritarian tyrant buddies in far-right regimes, as years of Trump brainwashing tends to do that to weak minds.

But FEAR NOT, that's why, the good folk here, are here to always remind you, of what his "cock sucking" proclivities look like. See pic below, if still unsure of what this looks like! [i][b](...kkkk!)[/b][/i]



Since when, was anyone "off topic", in an ISG styled [i]"Stupid Shit in {...fill-in-the-country-or-city...}"[/i] type forum or thread? [i][b](...kkkk!)[/b][/i]

Only those that are out of options, for defending [i][b]Trump sucking on Putin's "shrimp dick cock-tails",[/b][/i] would think, such an apt post for Trump's penchant for sucking Russian cock and Russian golden showers, was so called, [i][b]"off topic."[/b][/i][/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Xpartan;2958319]Trump's fondness for Putin's dick is not off-topic. It's THE reason why Putin is feeding the meat grinder with 1,500 Russians DAILY in order to grab as much land as possible--all in his gamble that Trump comes out on top tomorrow.

And of course, it's totally OK to make crude jokes of some old people (and women too), but not the others. But now, I guess, I'm off topic, so I'll stop.[/QUOTE]Fair enough. Well then, I hope Trump gets on with some serious dick sucking and helps end this senseless war.

[QUOTE=Tiny 12;2958729]Fair enough. [/QUOTE] Well played, Repubs and well played MAGA!

[QUOTE=Tiny 12;2958729]Well then, I hope Trump gets on with some [b]serious dick sucking[/b] and helps end this senseless war.[/QUOTE] Russian Putin, "dick sucking, dick sucking", is a skill set, he certainly has in abundance! [i][b](...kkkk)[/b][/i]

Good luck MAGA and best of luck to Ukraine!

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2958729]Fair enough. Well then, I hope Trump gets on with some serious dick sucking and helps end this senseless war.[/QUOTE]It seems you misunderstand what "dick sucking" actually means.

[QUOTE] I went in yesterday and there was a television screen, and I said, [b]This is genius.[/b] Putin declares a big portion of the Ukraine of Ukraine. Putin declares it as independent. Oh, thats [b]wonderful[/b].[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]So, Putin is now saying, Its independent, a large section of Ukraine. I said, How [b]smart[/b] is that? And hes gonna go in and be a peacekeeper. Thats strongest peace force We could use that on our southern border. Thats the strongest peace force Ive ever seen. There were more army tanks than Ive ever seen. Theyre gonna keep peace all right. No, but think of it. Heres a guy whos very [b]savvy[/b] [/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]But here's a guy that says, you know, "I'm going to declare a big portion of Ukraine independent," he used the word "independent," "and we're going to go out and we're going to go in and we're going to help keep peace. " You got to say that's pretty [B]savvy[/B].[/QUOTE]Now, that's some genuine, bona fide, I'd say even eloquent dick-sucking for you! Wouldn't you agree?

No, please, don't answer this.

Anyways, since we've already established that Trump sold Ukraine down the river on the very first day of Putin's all out invasion, I hope that Biden finds a way to secure his legacy by pushing the aid to Ukraine quickly. Not only the $6 billion, which we've pledged but still failed to deliver, but most importantly the consent for Ukraine to use the US hardware anywhere in Russia. It's going to be the longest 4 years in Ukraine history after the WW2.

[QUOTE=Spidy;2958794]Well played, Repubs and well played MAGA!

Russian Putin, "dick sucking, dick sucking", is a skill set, he certainly has in abundance! [i][b](...kkkk)[/b][/i]

Good luck MAGA and best of luck to Ukraine![/QUOTE]Some people are winners and some voted for kamala.

[QUOTE=ShooBree;2958845]Some people are winners and some voted for kamala.[/QUOTE]Some people are. Others who can't afford to part with $20 to support the forum they're so heavily using (even if just to call people names) -- not so much, really.

[QUOTE=ShooBree;2958845]Some people are winners and some voted for kamala.[/QUOTE]Unfortunately, stupidity is very infectious.

Hopefully Trump plays a part in putting an end to this savage needless war. I don't think the Russians will be interested in a frozen conflict type of deal where NATO continues to arm Ukraine and says Ukraine won't join NATO for say 20 years. Not going to have any of that non sense.

Ukrainian reconciliation. IN BRIEF: What President Putin told the Valdai discussion club:

The West has brought the situation to a coup in Ukraine and forced Russia to begin the special military operation. In this sense, it achieved its goal: "Our opponents find new ways, instruments, trying to get rid of us. Now, they use Ukraine as such instrument, they use Ukrainians, whom they shamelessly drill against Russians, effectively turning them into cannon fodder. ".

Kiev received orders from overseas to hold the ground in Russia's Kursk Region at all costs until the US presidential election. As a result, Kiev lost over 30,000 troops over more than three months of hostilities - "more than the Kiev regime's total losses during the entire year of 2023. ".

Good-neighborly relations between Russia and Ukraine are impossible without Kiev's neutrality. This is the main precondition to make sure that Ukraine does not become an instrument in someone else's hands: "The basic preconditions for the normalization of relations will not be established, and the situation would unfold by an unpredictable scenario. We would very much like to avoid it. ".

The border between Ukraine and Russia should run along the line determined by the sovereign decision of the residents of Donbass and Novorossiya who joined Russia following the results of the referendum: "Everything depends on the dynamics of the ongoing events. ".

Moscow is ready for peace talks on Ukraine, based not on Kiev's "wishlists that change from month to month but <. On the situation on the ground and the agreements that were reached in Istanbul. ".

Ukraine needs not a temporary truce, but a long-term settlement, which is crucial for the two brotherly peoples: "It should not be about a truce for half an hour or six months, just for shells to be delivered there. We should create favorable conditions for restoring relations and future cooperation in the interests of the two peoples, which are certainly brotherly, no matter how much the situation has been complicated by rhetoric and today's tragic events. ".

Source: [URL]https://tass.com/politics/1869419[/URL].

[QUOTE=Spidy;2958794]

Russian Putin, "dick sucking, dick sucking", is a skill set, he certainly has in abundance! [i][b](...kkkk)[/b][/i]

Good luck MAGA and best of luck to Ukraine![/QUOTE]The only cock sucker is in Ukraine and he already made his first call to say all holes are wide open.

[QUOTE=Riina;2959389]The only cock sucker is in Ukraine and he already made his first call to say all holes are wide open.[/QUOTE]I respectfully (LOL) disagree. There are tens of thousands of cocksuckers in Ukraine who are:

- sent to one-way meat assaults daily (an average life of a Russian meat-stormer is 1 month);.

- or paying their commanders and their thugs for NOT being sent to meat assaults;.

- or thrown into the pits and getting tortured until they agree to go into meat assaults;.

- or thrown into the pits and getting tortured until they agree to pay.

Why are these Russian soldiers cocksuckers you ask? Because rather than cutting their so-called commanders' throats for being treated like little cocksuckers, they wait until AFU do their job for them.

[B]Notorious Russian general who tortured own troops killed on motorbike by Ukrainian drone[/B]

[URL]https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/notorious-russian-general-who-tortured-own-troops-killed-on-motorbike-by-ukrainian-drone/ar-AA1tKsQ6?ocid=BingNewsSerp[/URL]

The only thing US Ukrainians are talking about after the election is deportation. Crickets on the end of foreign help.

[QUOTE=Riina;2959689]The only thing US Ukrainians are talking about after the election is deportation. Crickets on the end of foreign help.[/QUOTE]Can't wait to see what will happen to the Russians.

[QUOTE=Elvis2008;2956758]Food for thought? You think Kamala went to Harvard? Where did you get that bird brained idea?

She went to law school in California, and it was not at Stanford, Berkley, USC, or UCLA. She went to UC Hastings.

And she failed the California bar exam the first time she took it.

What else does she have besides BJ skills?[/QUOTE]Yea the Harvard part was a mistake, but it all begs the question, what do have to offer but BJs when you literally spend half of your life, arguing politics on hooker forum free for all threads that hardly anyone reads? That in itself is a BJ, or circle jerk, depending on your preferred terminology.

And you look like a complete fool when you say the world is currently engaged in World War 3 because North Korea sent a few thousand troops to help Russia. You completely dodged that point because you were impaled by it.

But at little Tiny mind considers you an "independent thinker. " Collecting and rapidly embracing information from Russian propaganda and other spurious online sources makes "a free thinker to the run of the mill dumbass about these days.

[QUOTE=Elvis2008;2956756]Here is a novel idea, Paulie. You go fight for Ukraine and let Americans volunteer to have their tax dollars be sent to Ukraine or not.[/QUOTE]Yes, you cowardly have made this same fallacious argument under one of your other user names. If a foreign country invades my country, and especially my neighborhood, I will fight, though with some limitations as I am up in years.

The US supports democracy, especially in Europe, and Ukraine wants to fight. Our support though has limited.

And you claim that hurricane aid has been sparse and largely witheld is a lie that you choose to believe from highly biased sources, while you avoid any fact checking.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2959144]Hopefully Trump plays a part in putting an end to this savage needless war. I don't think the Russians will be interested in a frozen conflict type of deal where NATO continues to arm Ukraine and says Ukraine won't join NATO for say 20 years. Not going to have any of that non sense.[/QUOTE]NATO isn't going to exclude Ukarine, or any other country for 20 years or any other length of time. It"s against the charter.

Ultimately Trump is going to prove a lot less help for Russia than you, Tiny, and Elvis are hoping.

[QUOTE=Questner;2959388]Ukrainian reconciliation. IN BRIEF: What President Putin told the Valdai discussion club:

The West has brought the situation to a coup in Ukraine and forced Russia to begin the special military operation. In this sense, it achieved its goal: "Our opponents find new ways, instruments, trying to get rid of us. Now, they use Ukraine as such instrument, they use Ukrainians, whom they shamelessly drill against Russians, effectively turning them into cannon fodder. ".

Kiev received orders from overseas to hold the ground in Russia's Kursk Region at all costs until the US presidential election. As a result, Kiev lost over 30,000 troops over more than three months of hostilities - "more than the Kiev regime's total losses during the entire year of 2023. ".

Good-neighborly relations between Russia and Ukraine are impossible without Kiev's neutrality. This is the main precondition to make sure that Ukraine does not become an instrument in someone else's hands: "The basic preconditions for the normalization of relations will not be established, and the situation would unfold by an unpredictable scenario. We would very much like to avoid it. ".

The border between Ukraine and Russia should run along the line determined by the sovereign decision of the residents of Donbass and Novorossiya who joined Russia following the results of the referendum: "Everything depends on the dynamics of the ongoing events. ".

Moscow is ready for peace talks on Ukraine, based not on Kiev's "wishlists that change from month to month but <. On the situation on the ground and the agreements that were reached in Istanbul. ".

Ukraine needs not a temporary truce, but a long-term settlement, which is crucial for the two brotherly peoples: "It should not be about a truce for half an hour or six months, just for shells to be delivered there. We should create favorable conditions for restoring relations and future cooperation in the interests of the two peoples, which are certainly brotherly, no matter how much the situation has been complicated by rhetoric and today's tragic events. ".
X
Source: [URL]https://tass.com/politics/1869419[/URL].[/QUOTE]This is Russian propaganda. Why not post it in the Russia forum, the far more appropriate place for you, Blood Red, Tiny, and Elvis to hangout?

The democratically elected legislative, according to the Ukrainian constitution, removed a corrupt leader. It wasn't a "coup. " This "president Putin" you talk about is a cold blooded murderer that kills his political opponents, beats up and jails peaceful protestors, and targets civilians in an illegal invasion of his neighbor.

[QUOTE=Paulie97;2959991]This is Russian propaganda. Why not post it in the Russia forum, the far more appropriate place for you, Blood Red, Tiny, and Elvis to hangout?

The democratically elected legislative, according to the Ukrainian constitution, removed a corrupt leader. It wasn't a "coup. " This "president Putin" you talk about is a cold blooded murderer that kills his political opponents, beats up and jails peaceful protestors, and targets civilians in an illegal invasion of his neighbor.[/QUOTE]Notice, that they never ever post a word about the war in Russian forums, only Ukrainian places. There is a reason for that.

[QUOTE=Questner;2959388]
Good-neighborly relations between Russia and Ukraine are impossible without Kiev's neutrality. [/QUOTE]This is just blabla. Look at Moldova: Neutrality is written in their constitution. But Red Army troops on Moldovian soil, though.

That is my best nickname for Tiny, who says Elvis is a "free thinker," well how much fact checking do you think Elvis does? You are a syrupy, nauseating insult to true intellectuals, who by definition test the claims. They don't just believe it when some big mouth YouTuber lays out his latest provocative and spurious argument. They don't just swallow Trump's millionth lie. They fact check.

It's like the Marquis de Twot, and this stupid moron I met here in Medellin in Sweet Georgia Cafe who said he was a Marine. Well that's exactly what they mostly want in the Marines is meat heads. But he was going on about how Biden got so many more votes than Kamala, as proof of a stolen 2020 election. Okay got it, so I asked the 80 IQ guy where he thought all the extra votes came from in 2020, and he of course said illegals. Then I asked his dumbfuck ass why these illegals, who are now greater in numbers, didn't steal the latest election. He had no answer, so I guess he's only left with Jewish space lasers, or whatever hogwash Elvis can pull off the blogs. But that's free thought according to Spineless.

[QUOTE=Paulie97;2959991]This is Russian propaganda. Why not post it in the Russia forum, the far more appropriate place for you, Blood Red, Tiny, and Elvis to hangout?

The democratically elected legislative, according to the Ukrainian constitution, removed a corrupt leader. It wasn't a "coup. " This "president Putin" you talk about is a cold blooded murderer that kills his political opponents, beats up and jails peaceful protestors, and targets civilians in an illegal invasion of his neighbor.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Paulie97;2959972]NATO isn't going to exclude Ukarine, or any other country for 20 years or any other length of time. It"s against the charter.

Ultimately Trump is going to prove a lot less help for Russia than you, Tiny, and Elvis are hoping.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Paulie97;2959968]Yes, you cowardly have made this same fallacious argument under one of your other user names. If a foreign country invades my country, and especially my neighborhood, I will fight, though with some limitations as I am up in years.

The US supports democracy, especially in Europe, and Ukraine wants to fight. Our support though has limited.

And you claim that hurricane aid has been sparse and largely witheld is a lie that you choose to believe from highly biased sources, while you avoid any fact checking.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Paulie97;2959965]Yea the Harvard part was a mistake, but it all begs the question, what do have to offer but BJs when you literally spend half of your life, arguing politics on hooker forum free for all threads that hardly anyone reads? That in itself is a BJ, or circle jerk, depending on your preferred terminology.

And you look like a complete fool when you say the world is currently engaged in World War 3 because North Korea sent a few thousand troops to help Russia. You completely dodged that point because you were impaled by it.

But at little Tiny mind considers you an "independent thinker. " Collecting and rapidly embracing information from Russian propaganda and other spurious online sources makes "a free thinker to the run of the mill dumbass about these days.[/QUOTE]Neoconservative.

[QUOTE=VinDici;2960089]Notice, that they never ever post a word about the war in Russian forums, only Ukrainian places. There is a reason for that.[/QUOTE]There's no Stupid Shit in Moscow thread.

This thread would be dead without posters like us. I guess from time to time the gentlemen with your view could give each other "attaboys" though. Although given how things have developed, they would now be few and far between.

While I would particularly appreciate Blood Red's thoughts, any board member's [B]civil[/B] input would be appreciated.

The Telegraph and the Wall Street Journal recently broke a story based on reports from several unnamed Trump staffers. Trump's peace plans sound a lot like what J. D. Vance has been saying. Here's an outline.

The current line between the two sides would be frozen in place.

Ukraine would agree to shelve its ambition to join NATO for 20 years.

The USA And Europe would pump Ukraine full of weapons for purposes of deterrence.

The USA Would not contribute troops to patrol the buffer zone nor would it finance the mission. (I know, this conflicts with the previous point.) Instead Europeans would. The WSJ quotes an unnamed source, ""We can do training and other support but the barrel of the gun is going to be European. We are not sending American men and women to uphold peace in Ukraine. And we are not paying for it. Get the Poles, Germans, British and French to do it. ".

Do you think this plan is workable? A good starting point for negotiations? There are obvious aspects the Russians and Ukrainians won't like. And putting all the burden on the Europeans while the USA Is calling the shots would create problems. Are the Europeans going to be like UN peacekeepers? Or armed to the teeth? If the later then Russia would have NATO on its doorstep. That would probably be a nonstarter.

There's an interesting quote in the Telegraph article from George Osborne, who was David Cameron's Chancellor of the Exchequer and First Secretary of State:

"Is it realistic to expect a complete victory for Ukraine, the complete ejection of Russia from Ukrainian territory? And if it's not, you know, it may suit our vanity in the West to say 'plucky Ukrainians', but it's not our children who are dying," the former chancellor said.

It's also totally unrealistic, in my view, to think that Europe alone, including the UK, can go on supporting Ukraine without the support of the United States, even though Joe Biden actually is rushing to spend the $61 billion that Congress recently voted in terms of American aid for Ukraine before he leaves office. ".

[URL]https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/11/07/donald-trump-ukraine-peace-plan-british-troops-buffer-zone/[/URL]

[QUOTE=Paulie97;2959965]Yea the Harvard part was a mistake, [/QUOTE]The only questions your comment begs is why are you such a fucking liar and how many other times have you pulled shit out of your ass?

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2960227]Neoconservative.[/QUOTE]Given what he has posted on Covid, I would say more fascist than neoconservative. He wants one party rule by Democrats. All he cares about is his SS check and nothing more.

[QUOTE=Paulie97;2959991]This is Russian propaganda. Why not post it in the Russia forum, the far more appropriate place for you, Blood Red, Tiny, and Elvis to hangout?
[/QUOTE]Why don't you quit insulting people and get your facts right Mr. Kamala went to Harvard?

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2959144]Hopefully Trump plays a part in putting an end to this savage needless war. I don't think the Russians will be interested in a frozen conflict type of deal where NATO continues to arm Ukraine and says Ukraine won't join NATO for say 20 years. Not going to have any of that non sense.[/QUOTE]BR, Putin is a scum bag. Everyone knows that. Thing is the idiotic Democrats believed that Trump won in 2016 because of Putin. They really did. Because they felt like Trump won because of Putin, their goal was to "weaken Putin" thinking that would allow them to win in 2024.

Thing about the Democratic douches is they keep going back to this mindless Russian propaganda bullshit because they think Trump won because of Russian propaganda.

The funny part about this massive landslide is Trump got about the same number of votes as he did in 2020 about 75 million.

Thing is when you look at how much the Democratic candidate got: it was 63 million for Obama in 2012,66 million for Hiliary in 2016, and Kamala got 70 million in 2024. There is nothing out of the ordinary there right?

The problem is in 2020 Biden got 81.4 million votes which means 11 million voters failed to show up for Kamala or that is the number of votes Democrats created out of thin air. I do not know where you fall on this issue, but I will tell you that I believe that a huge portion of those votes were fake, and I think that a large portion of that cheating was justified by compensating for the way Russia supposedly cheated in 2016.

There is no way Democrats can bring out another bullshit Russiagate story again. Keep in mind that the truckers protesting in Canada in 2021 were supposedly backed by Putin as well.

The Democrats elected someone as their candidate who did not get a single vote in a primary and staged a coup against Biden. Their candidate was so fake that every time she spoke it was memorized or off a teleprompter. She needed 60 minutes to edit her interview and refused to go on Joe Rogan when Rogan refused that their interview be edited.

So with the Democratic douches who believe Russia is evil, that Russia attacked Ukraine versus being provoked is an easy story to swallow but what now? Well, you can see how pathetic and finger pointing the reaction is here now? What you can see is a bunch of people finger pointing at the flaws of others versus acknowledging that they were duped.

As for what happens next, I think Trump has been talking to Putin through intermediate sources for a long time and knows what Russia can live with. The tricky part for me is putting in a clause that some Democrat cannot just undo in 4 years or later.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2960230]While I would particularly appreciate Blood Red's thoughts, any board member's [B]civil[/B] input would be appreciated.

The Telegraph and the Wall Street Journal recently broke a story based on reports from several unnamed Trump staffers. Trump's peace plans sound a lot like what J. D. Vance has been saying. Here's an outline.

The current line between the two sides would be frozen in place.

Ukraine would agree to shelve its ambition to join NATO for 20 years.

The USA And Europe would pump Ukraine full of weapons for purposes of deterrence.

The USA Would not contribute troops to patrol the buffer zone nor would it finance the mission. (I know, this conflicts with the previous point.) Instead Europeans would. The WSJ quotes an unnamed source, ""We can do training and other support but the barrel of the gun is going to be European. We are not sending American men and women to uphold peace in Ukraine. And we are not paying for it. Get the Poles, Germans, British and French to do it. ".

Do you think this plan is workable? A good starting point for negotiations? There are obvious aspects the Russians and Ukrainians won't like. And putting all the burden on the Europeans while the USA Is calling the shots would create problems. Are the Europeans going to be like UN peacekeepers? Or armed to the teeth? If the later then Russia would have NATO on its doorstep. That would probably be a nonstarter.

There's an interesting quote in the Telegraph article from George Osborne, who was David Cameron's Chancellor of the Exchequer and First Secretary of State:

"Is it realistic to expect a complete victory for Ukraine, the complete ejection of Russia from Ukrainian territory? And if it's not, you know, it may suit our vanity in the West to say 'plucky Ukrainians', but it's not our children who are dying," the former chancellor said.

It's also totally unrealistic, in my view, to think that Europe alone, including the UK, can go on supporting Ukraine without the support of the United States, even though Joe Biden actually is rushing to spend the $61 billion that Congress recently voted in terms of American aid for Ukraine before he leaves office. ".

[URL]https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/11/07/donald-trump-ukraine-peace-plan-british-troops-buffer-zone/[/URL][/QUOTE]The current line between the two sides would be frozen in place. - No, we don't need it and won't allow it.

Ukraine would agree to shelve its ambition to join NATO for 20 years. - No, why? We won't agree to it.

The USA And Europe would pump Ukraine full of weapons for purposes of deterrence. - Already doing it and we destroy it. Pump more and we are going to supply forces inside Ukraine with weapons against NATO countries.

The USA Would not contribute troops to patrol the buffer zone nor would it finance the mission. (I know, this conflicts with the previous point.) Instead Europeans would. The WSJ quotes an unnamed source, ""We can do training and other support but the barrel of the gun is going to be European. We are not sending American men and women to uphold peace in Ukraine. And we are not paying for it. Get the Poles, Germans, British and French to do it. ". - They would be considered intervention forces and be hit with tactical nuclear weapons.

The best Ukraine can do is to hold elections, agree to Putin's plan and become a federal state, non-nuclear, non-aligned on Austrian way.

Question: Would it be considered open aggression against Russia if certain NATO member countries decide to lift restrictions on Kiev's use of long-range missiles to strike the Russian territory?

Sergey Lavrov: It is not entirely accurate to suggest that Western countries may grant permission for Kiev to use long-range weapons supplied to them for strikes on Russian territory. If such weapons are employed, it would signify that not only Ukraine but also NATO countries are openly fighting Russia, no longer bothering to conceal the presence of so-called mercenaries, volunteers, instructors, and other individuals "under false colours. " In other words, the true nature of the conflict, which Western leaders have attempted to obscure (albeit not very effectively), will be exposed. Russian President Vladimir Putin has addressed this issue.

It should be clear to all that Ukrainians cannot operate Western high-tech long-range weapons independently. They will have to rely on Western experts and intelligence, including information obtained from the NATO space group.

We must not overlook the fact that NATO has long ceased to hide its aggressive policies towards Russia. NATO strategies describe our country as "the most significant and direct threat to security. " The alliance's leadership frequently speaks of Russia allegedly planning to attack a NATO member state within the coming years. Europe is being militarised at an alarming pace. During their drills, NATO forces practice offensive operations against Russia.

Our opponents should not be under any illusions. In the event of aggressive actions by NATO or its individual member states against our country, an appropriate response will ensue, in full compliance with Russia's sovereign right to self-defence and the use of any means necessary to ensure its security, as stipulated in the UN Charter. And no one will be able to lie low, whether across the Atlantic Ocean or the English Channel.

Source: [URL]https://mid.ru/en/foreign_policy/news/themes/id/1979380/[/URL].

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2960228]There's no Stupid Shit in Moscow thread.

This thread would be dead without posters like us. I guess from time to time the gentlemen with your view could give each other "attaboys" though. Although given how things have developed, they would now be few and far between.[/QUOTE]There is a general info thread, and there is nothing stopping people from creating a new one in Russia for the war.

Whether this thread is dead or not, is irrelevant. The forum is primarily to discuss mongering not warfare and geopolitics.

[QUOTE=Paulie97;2960185]
[b]Spineless aka Tiny[/b]

That is my best nickname for Tiny, who says Elvis is a "free thinker," well how much fact checking do you think Elvis does? You are a syrupy, nauseating insult to true intellectuals, who by definition test the claims. They don't just believe it when some big mouth YouTuber lays out his latest provocative and spurious argument. They don't just swallow Trump's millionth lie. They fact check.

It's like the Marquis de Twot, and this stupid moron I met here in Medellin in Sweet Georgia Cafe who said he was a Marine. Well that's exactly what they mostly want in the Marines is meat heads. But he was going on about how Biden got so many more votes than Kamala, as proof of a stolen 2020 election. Okay got it, so I asked the 80 IQ guy where he thought all the extra votes came from in 2020, and he of course said illegals. Then I asked his dumbfuck ass why these illegals, who are now greater in numbers, didn't steal the latest election. He had no answer, so I guess he's only left with Jewish space lasers, or whatever hogwash Elvis can pull off the blogs. But that's free thought according to Spineless.[/QUOTE]

Apologies. That post was 100% directed at the Marquis and you were collateral damage. I picked the first Elvis post I came across that showed a position independent from the mainstream American political parties. I remember selectively quoting him to avoid the word "douche", but missed the second one. If I had it to do over I'd also put "..." in place of Paulie97.

I do share Elvis' general sentiment. I don't like my tax dollars being used to enable war and death. I'd much rather see them used to promote peace and reduce extreme poverty. There are some issues I don't agree with Elvis about, for example the "stolen" 2020 election you mentioned. But he is an "independent thinker." His posts, unlike most of what's in the politics forum, are often worth reading and original. Or at least I've never seen some of his ideas expressed in what I read. Admittedly he could stand to cut down on the mudslinging, as could you.

To your credit you haven't been throwing the word "coward" around like some posters here to describe board members you disagree with. "Spineless" fits that category though.

[QUOTE=Questner;2960280]The current line between the two sides would be frozen in place. - No, we don't need it and won't allow it.[/QUOTE]Why not? Russia's official position I believe is that it wants all of Kherson, Zaporizhzhia, Donetsk and Luhansk. It seems like modifying that to just the occupied territory wouldn't be that big of a pullback, to end the war.

[QUOTE=Questner;2960280]The best Ukraine can do is to hold elections, agree to Putin's plan and become a federal state, non-nuclear, non-aligned on Austrian way.[/QUOTE]Ukraine becoming like Austria, including becoming an EU state ASAP, could be an ideal solution. Europe would spend money building up a prosperous Ukraine instead of enabling a war. Actually ideally it would be great to see Ukraine and Russia as members of the EU and NATO someday in the future. It might have happened by now if not for the neoconservatives, and military and defense establishments who, through the years, depended on hostility toward Russia to maintain their power and funding.

That the Republican Americans here favor Putlers aggressive attitude. And honor it by agreeing to new borders, drawn by military aggression.

Because the USA would like to do the same, wright? What the RF can do, Gods own country can do as well.

Especially, after both parties (USA and RF) convinced (read: betrayed) the UA in the past to drop or not to develop nuclear weapons.

So, its proven, both, USA and RF can force non-obeying countries / neighbors under their rule, simple using nuclear threat.

Consequence: Because of all this betrayel, other countries will develop nuclear weapons.

Who should ever trust you again, cowboys?

BTW: Hitlers war forced upon him, because of the regulations from Versailles.

[QUOTE=ReinerOtto;2960433]...Because the USA would like to do the same, wright? What the RF can do, Gods own country can do as well.

Especially, after both parties (USA and RF) convinced....the UA in the past to drop or not to develop nuclear weapons.

So, its proven, both, USA and RF can force non-obeying countries / neighbors under their rule, simple using nuclear threat.

Consequence: Because of all this betrayel, other countries will develop nuclear weapons.

Who should ever trust you again, cowboys?

BTW: Hitlers war forced upon him, because of the regulations from Versailles.[/QUOTE]That's reality, because of their conventional and nuclear weapons and large militaries. If they were to decide to get medieval, the USA and Russia can pretty much have their way with non-nuclear powers. It's not ideal, but the world has to deal with it. As to the subject at hand, the best way to deal with it is push for a quick settlement to the war that, to the extent possible, saves face for all involved.

If ridiculous reparations hadn't been forced on Germany probably Hitler never would have assumed power, although you'd probably know more about that than I do.

[QUOTE=Paulie97;2960185]how much fact checking do you think Elvis does?[/QUOTE]You are the one who needs to be fact checked you dumb Democratic douche. You blathered on that we had a cure for Covid, that vaccines worked, that more Republicans were going to die with Covid, said anyone against this war was a Putin dick sucker, and the latest in your unending string of bullshit is Kamla went to Harvard!

[QUOTE=Paulie97;2960185]Okay got it, so I asked the 80 IQ guy where he thought all the extra votes came from in 2020, and he of course said illegals. Then I asked his dumbfuck ass why these illegals, who are now greater in numbers, didn't steal the latest election. He had no answer, so I guess he's only left with Jewish space lasers, or whatever hogwash Elvis can pull off the blogs. But that's free thought according to Spineless. [/QUOTE]As for this election not being stolen, I said without depositions the notion that there was no voter fraud in 2020 is pure bullshit but Republicans had to live with the results. Politically speaking, they should not have expected judges to change the results AFTER the election, but if you think Republicans did not do a shitload to prevent fraud in 2024, then you have your fucking head in the sand.

If you are dumb as to believe that Biden really got more black votes than Kamala did in 2024 or Obama did in 2012, I have some swamp land to sell you.

How in the fuck did Biden get 81.5 million votes in 2020 and Kamala only got 70 million in 2024? Let me tell you something you stupid douche. There are multiple data points over the last 4 elections and the only one not in alignment are the vote totals for Biden in 2020. Just wait until 2028 and 2032, and it is going to be patently obvious how much you douches cheated.

The most disgusting act isn't even the election or destroying freedom for a virus with a 0. 2% mortality rate. It is killing millions of Russians and Ukrainians in a stupid war for your political objectives.

Have you noticed that everyone wants peace now that Trump is president? Of course not. You only read the shit that reinforces your perverted views of the world.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2960227]Neoconservative.[/QUOTE]You, isolationist. Check the history of that ideology and the fruits thereof. But thanks, I'm very rarely called a conservative in any respect. But I think there's a real chance Trump will surprise the far right with his Ukraine policy.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2960412]Why not? Russia's official position I believe is that it wants all of Kherson, Zaporizhzhia, Donetsk and Luhansk. It seems like modifying that to just the occupied territory wouldn't be that big of a pullback, to end the war.

Ukraine becoming like Austria, including becoming an EU state ASAP, could be an ideal solution. Europe would spend money building up a prosperous Ukraine instead of enabling a war. Actually ideally it would be great to see Ukraine and Russia as members of the EU and NATO someday in the future. It might have happened by now if not for the neoconservatives, and military and defense establishments who, through the years, depended on hostility toward Russia to maintain their power and funding.[/QUOTE]All 4 regions are constitutionally part of RF now. Russia won't negotiate over its territory. We also won't allow any interventionist force into Ukraine. There are also many operational military aspects. There are future industrial economic aspects as new regions form a complete industrial loop in metal production, mining, transportation etc. There are also political and local elites aspects as well.

All Ukraine is within historic Russian territory and is part of common historic and territorial continuum.

NATO is an anachronism created 3 generations ago which serves today as a means to occupy Europe and to extort 2 cents out of its flesh through military spending.

The US is the main sponsor and beneficiary of the 2014 coup and current conflict. The US should dismantle the Ukraine project and direct its MIC away.

[QUOTE=ReinerOtto;2960433]That the Republican Americans here favor Putlers aggressive attitude. And honor it by agreeing to new borders, drawn by military aggression.

Because the USA would like to do the same, wright? What the RF can do, Gods own country can do as well.

Especially, after both parties (USA and RF) convinced (read: betrayed) the UA in the past to drop or not to develop nuclear weapons.

So, its proven, both, USA and RF can force non-obeying countries / neighbors under their rule, simple using nuclear threat.

Consequence: Because of all this betrayel, other countries will develop nuclear weapons.

Who should ever trust you again, cowboys?

BTW: Hitlers war forced upon him, because of the regulations from Versailles.[/QUOTE]Don't do this. Don't put Russia and the US on the same level. Hell, don't put them in the same room or even town. Trumpism is a bug, not a feature.

It's an aberration. It's America gone nuts. Granted, I didn't expect 50% of my countrymen to be so persistent about going nuts, but what can I say--whoopsies.

Putinism, on the other hand, is not a bug, it's a feature. Russia has always been homicidal. Russia has always been ruled by tyrants. Putin just brought it all back after a brief Sabbatical.

Right-wing populism is not just a US problem. It's swept the world, and you, a European, should be well aware of this phenomenon.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2960441]That's reality, because of their conventional and nuclear weapons and large militaries. If they were to decide to get medieval, the USA and Russia can pretty much have their way with non-nuclear powers. It's not ideal, but the world has to deal with it. As to the subject at hand, the best way to deal with it is push for a quick settlement to the war that, to the extent possible, saves face for all involved.

If ridiculous reparations hadn't been forced on Germany probably Hitler never would have assumed power, although you'd probably know more about that than I do.[/QUOTE]1. Russia DID go medieval on its neighbor. The only reason it hasn't used nukes (yet) is they'd been warned about what would happen. They can use a world stage as a poker table all they want, but they aren't in rush to become martyrs.

2. It's amazing how isolationists always repeat the same refrain used by Hitler himself. Every time he would attack yet another country, he would go on about the evil West that forced him, a quiet and innocent piece-lover to bomb another European city to oblivion. You have no evidence to insist that Hitler wouldn't have assumed power if it hadn't for the reparations. Germany lost a war, for Christ's sake. Losing wars is never fun.

[QUOTE=Xpartan;2960573]Trumpism is a bug, not a feature.

It's an aberration. It's America gone nuts.[/QUOTE]No, you are the one who is nuts. Look at the 1:44 mark in this video. [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3BEfT64r1U[/URL]

The Taliban wants peace as does Hamas, China, and Russia. The Europeans want to buy American LNG. The Houthis said they are going to stop blowing ships up in the Red Sea. Crypto and the stock market have hit all time highs. And Trump is not even in office yet!

And then there is the latest Democratic douche trash at work: [URL]https://www.zerohedge.com/political/fired-fema-supervisor-claims-avoiding-trump-homes-was-widespread-practice-due-political[/URL].

The Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) supervisor accused of directing workers to skip hurricane-ravaged homes in Florida with Trump signs, claimed in an interview Monday that the policy was widespread and that she was being scapegoated.

Oh, yeah, X man, you are such the sane one. You want war. You want people to be without homes if they do not support your political party. My God, you are such a douche!

[QUOTE=Paulie97;2960471]...I think there's a real chance Trump will surprise the far right with his Ukraine policy.[/QUOTE]I believe you mean to say "isolationists" instead of the far right. Rand Paul and Bernie Sanders are the standard bearers for isolationism in the Republican and Democratic Parties, and most reasonable people wouldn't consider them far right. They both support legalization of marijuana for example.

Anyway if that's what you mean, I agree with you. Marco Rubio, who may become Secretary of State, is a neoconservative. Pete Hegseth, future Secretary of Defense, probably is too.

Some follow ups Questner.

[QUOTE=Questner;2960517]All 4 regions are constitutionally part of RF now. Russia won't negotiate over its territory. We also won't allow any interventionist force into Ukraine. There are also many operational military aspects. There are future industrial economic aspects as new regions form a complete industrial loop in metal production, mining, transportation etc. There are also political and local elites aspects as well.

All Ukraine is within historic Russian territory and is part of common historic and territorial continuum.[/QUOTE]That may have made a lot of sense in 1991. Perhaps the USSR shouldn't have split up into many republics. A lot of people from former Soviet Republics in central Asia have moved to Russia for economic reasons, and they wouldn't necessarily want to do that if they lived in the same country. Perhaps Russia, Ukraine and Belarus should have formed a common government.

But does what you're saying make sense now? You'd think that industrial loops and the like now are more integrated with Russia in Russian occupied territory and vice versa. Is this worth fighting over?



[QUOTE=Questner;2960517]NATO is an anachronism created 3 generations ago which serves today as a means to occupy Europe and to extort 2 cents out of its flesh through military spending.[/QUOTE]Would you agree that Russia, Europe and the USA should be natural friends, instead of enemies? And do you think that will ever happen? What would it take to make it happen? My observations would lead me to believe we're a lot more alike than different, certainly on a people-to-people basis.

[QUOTE=Questner;2960517]The US is the main sponsor and beneficiary of the 2014 coup and current conflict. The US should dismantle the Ukraine project and direct its MIC away.[/QUOTE]I don't believe the USA is a beneficiary. It's the opposite. The country has blown a lot of money on the war. And the conflict hurt the world economy.

[QUOTE=Elvis2008;2960656]The Taliban wants peace as does Hamas, China, and Russia. The Europeans want to buy American LNG. The Houthis said they are going to stop blowing ships up in the Red Sea. Crypto and the stock market have hit all time highs. And Trump is not even in office yet![/QUOTE]Youtube has me temporarily locked out unless I login using my Google ID and I don't want to give the bastards the satisfaction. So I haven't seen the video. As you know I'm not a Trump fan, because of his character and what happened after the 2020 election. But you're right. I like his foreign policy better than any US president's during our adult lifetimes, and hopefully the world will reap the benefits.

[QUOTE=Xpartan;2960573]2. It's amazing how isolationists always repeat the same refrain used by Hitler himself. Every time he would attack yet another country, he would go on about the evil West that forced him, a quiet and innocent piece-lover to bomb another European city to oblivion. You have no evidence to insist that Hitler wouldn't have assumed power if it hadn't for the reparations. Germany lost a war, for Christ's sake. Losing wars is never fun.[/QUOTE]I asked ChatGPT! It's a lot smarter than the both of us put together! Here are its conclusions.

Pro Tiny: Historical voting data shows that the Nazi Party's support surged during times of heightened economic hardship, especially after reparations and economic instability intensified. In 1928, the Nazis had less than 3% of the vote. But by 1932, amid the Great Depression and economic collapse tied to reparations, they had become the largest party in the Reichstag.

Many voters explicitly cited economic grievances and resentment of Versailles as reasons for turning to the Nazis, showing that reparations were directly tied to the Nazi Party's appeal.

Pro Xpartan: While reparations were critical, they were not the only factor. Other elements, such as Hitler's oratory skills, effective Nazi propaganda, fear of communism, and political blunders by Weimar leaders, also contributed. Some historians argue that while reparations set the stage for economic hardship, political instability might have led to extremist rule regardless.

Conclusion: In summary, while reparations alone didn't create Hitler's rise to power, they amplified the economic desperation, nationalist resentment, and political instability that Hitler exploited. It's plausible that without reparations, the extreme conditions fueling Nazi support would have been less severe, potentially preventing Hitler's ascent.

[QUOTE=Elvis2008;2960656]No, you are the one who is nuts. Look at the 1:44 mark in this video. [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3BEfT64r1U[/URL]

The Taliban wants peace as does Hamas, China, and Russia. The Europeans want to buy American LNG. The Houthis said they are going to stop blowing ships up in the Red Sea. Crypto and the stock market have hit all time highs. And Trump is not even in office yet![/QUOTE]Since you're a man-child with critical thinking skills of a 5-year old, it's pointless to argue with you. In 4 years time, when Trump monumentally fails in all his endeavors, be it immigration, economy, or foreign affairs, you will parrot his new / old bullshit with the same unwavering faith and disregard for reality. That's just you being you.

That said, yes, Trump is not in office yet! Right now he's doing what he loves most--running his mouth, promising the world, picking sycophants, and no one holds him accountable for whatever the hell he's mumbling. Good times that will end very, very soon.

[QUOTE=Paulie97;2960471]You, isolationist. Check the history of that ideology and the fruits thereof. But thanks, I'm very rarely called a conservative in any respect. But I think there's a real chance Trump will surprise the far right with his Ukraine policy.[/QUOTE]I wish I had your optimism. But no, for one reason or another, he's Putin's puppet. He can talk and act tough, but unless they have a totally unexpected falling out, he'll keep doing his bidding. I'd love to be proven wrong, but I don't think I will be.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2960697]I asked ChatGPT! It's a lot smarter than the both of us put together! Here are its conclusions.

Pro Tiny: Historical voting data shows that the Nazi Party's support surged during times of heightened economic hardship, especially after reparations and economic instability intensified. In 1928, the Nazis had less than 3% of the vote. But by 1932, amid the Great Depression and economic collapse tied to reparations, they had become the largest party in the Reichstag.

Many voters explicitly cited economic grievances and resentment of Versailles as reasons for turning to the Nazis, showing that reparations were directly tied to the Nazi Party's appeal.

Pro Xpartan: While reparations were critical, they were not the only factor. Other elements, such as Hitler's oratory skills, effective Nazi propaganda, fear of communism, and political blunders by Weimar leaders, also contributed. Some historians argue that while reparations set the stage for economic hardship, political instability might have led to extremist rule regardless.

Conclusion: In summary, while reparations alone didn't create Hitler's rise to power, they amplified the economic desperation, nationalist resentment, and political instability that Hitler exploited. It's plausible that without reparations, the extreme conditions fueling Nazi support would have been less severe, potentially preventing Hitler's ascent.[/QUOTE]Can't say I disagree. Amplified--yes, potentially--yes, and plausible also yes. All the right words. IMHO, German revanchism, more than any reparations was responsible for Hitler. Not unlike the conditions that have been brewing cultivated by Kremlin for the last 17 years. Imagine if Hitler and Hitlerism were dealt with when the world still had a chance.

[QUOTE=Xpartan;2960715]Since you're a man-child with critical thinking skills of a 5-year old, it's pointless to argue with you.[/QUOTE]LOL. You are a child who cannot admit to being wrong about anything. I said the Trump criminal trial was a joke. You said orange (Trump) would be in orange (jail). You thought Harris was doing well and that Ukraine was going to win this war.

For someone is full of himself as you are, I am such the adult!, show me one time you predicted anything right. Quite frankly, you are the five year old pretending to be a genius when all you do is repeat MSNBC talking points.

[QUOTE=Xpartan;2960715]In 4 years time, when Trump monumentally fails in all his endeavors, be it immigration, economy, or foreign affairs[/QUOTE]Given your horrific track record, your prediction of failure is music to the ears of all Trump voters.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2960691]Youtube has me temporarily locked out unless I login using my Google ID and I don't want to give the bastards the satisfaction. So I haven't seen the video. As you know I'm not a Trump fan, because of his character and what happened after the 2020 election. But you're right. I like his foreign policy better than any US president's during our adult lifetimes, and hopefully the world will reap the benefits.[/QUOTE]I do too and love all his appointments. I looked up Biden's vaunted IRS in 2023 and saw that they audited about half a million people and collected like $30 billion. I think that is like half of what is sent to Ukraine every year. There is this constant notion of rich people getting away with holding all this money when in fact government spending dwarfs the richest people by a country mile.

I think Trump's biggest mistake was kowtowing to the bureaucrats on Covid. He spent like crazy in 2020 and it was not necessary. Thing is there was this huge cost that few thought would happen with all this government spending, inflation. Last I checked the Trump tax cuts cost $200 billion per year. Because of inflation and higher interest rates interest on the national debt, our interest payments have gone from $500 billion under Trump to $1. 1 trillion under Biden yet all these dumb Democratic douches talk about is the budget deficit and tax cuts. It is bullshit.

I am so sick of these WW2 and Hilter analogies. Wars back then were fought over scarce resources. That is less of an issue today, and we have fucking nukes. For all this talk about Putin taking over Europe, no one has given any reason as to why he would want to. Russia has more land than any country in the world.

If you are telling me Putin is the boogeyman while you are picking my pocket, YOU are the boogeyman.

With the video, what you saw is Hamas wanting peace, the Saudis kicking Hamas out of their country, the Houthis saying they were no longer going to attack ships in the Red Sea, Moscow saying there were willing to negotiate with Ukraine, and China making peaceful commentary, and you know why? Because Biden loved war and spent a lot on it. With Trump there is a helluva lot less money in war. A friend of mine said the real reason the Houthis were attacking ships in the Red Sea is they were hopeful Biden would pay them not to. And all this happened after Trump was elected.

To be honest, my biggest fear was Trump would back down from a fight with the DOJ and fall back into the spending ways of his first term. I am glad that fear was unfounded.

Hopefully, Trump gets us out of NATO, returns how much that has cost the American taxpayer with an additional tax cut, and gets LNG plants going so that Europe can buy gas from us. It would be nice to have a president interested in putting money in our pocket versus robbing us blind to pay for dumb wars like this one.

[QUOTE=Elvis2008;2960268]BR, Putin is a scum bag. Everyone knows that. Thing is the idiotic Democrats believed that Trump won in 2016 because of Putin. They really did. Because they felt like Trump won because of Putin, their goal was to "weaken Putin" thinking that would allow them to win in 2024.

Thing about the Democratic douches is they keep going back to this mindless Russian propaganda bullshit because they think Trump won because of Russian propaganda.

The funny part about this massive landslide is Trump got about the same number of votes as he did in 2020 about 75 million.

Thing is when you look at how much the Democratic candidate got: it was 63 million for Obama in 2012,66 million for Hiliary in 2016, and Kamala got 70 million in 2024. There is nothing out of the ordinary there right?

The problem is in 2020 Biden got 81.4 million votes which means 11 million voters failed to show up for Kamala or that is the number of votes Democrats created out of thin air. I do not know where you fall on this issue, but I will tell you that I believe that a huge portion of those votes were fake, and I think that a large portion of that cheating was justified by compensating for the way Russia supposedly cheated in 2016.

There is no way Democrats can bring out another bullshit Russiagate story again. Keep in mind that the truckers protesting in Canada in 2021 were supposedly backed by Putin as well.

The Democrats elected someone as their candidate who did not get a single vote in a primary and staged a coup against Biden. Their candidate was so fake that every time she spoke it was memorized or off a teleprompter. She needed 60 minutes to edit her interview and refused to go on Joe Rogan when Rogan refused that their interview be edited.

So with the Democratic douches who believe Russia is evil, that Russia attacked Ukraine versus being provoked is an easy story to swallow but what now? Well, you can see how pathetic and finger pointing the reaction is here now? What you can see is a bunch of people finger pointing at the flaws of others versus acknowledging that they were duped.

As for what happens next, I think Trump has been talking to Putin through intermediate sources for a long time and knows what Russia can live with. The tricky part for me is putting in a clause that some Democrat cannot just undo in 4 years or later.[/QUOTE]To the victors go the spoils.

[URL]https://www.wsj.com/world/russia/musk-putin-secret-conversations-37e1c187[/URL]

May I be the first to suggest we rename Washington and Kyiv after one of the Greatest of men!!

I love all the Russian people espec My Dearest Vladimir.

Long live the Motherland!!

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2960689]Some follow ups Questner.

That may have made a lot of sense in 1991. Perhaps the USSR shouldn't have split up into many republics. A lot of people from former Soviet Republics in central Asia have moved to Russia for economic reasons, and they wouldn't necessarily want to do that if they lived in the same country. Perhaps Russia, Ukraine and Belarus should have formed a common government.

But does what you're saying make sense now? You'd think that industrial loops and the like now are more integrated with Russia in Russian occupied territory and vice versa. Is this worth fighting over?

- Maybe I would opt for another plan of action. Why would we transfer our own land to foreign owners at the whim of a gang of crooks and traitors now when we were fighting for generations to keep it ours?

Would you agree that Russia, Europe and the USA should be natural friends, instead of enemies? And do you think that will ever happen? What would it take to make it happen? My observations would lead me to believe we're a lot more alike than different, certainly on a people-to-people basis.

- Let's start with the return of confiscated diplomatic property in the US, return of frozen funds and lift of sanctions

I don't believe the USA is a beneficiary. It's the opposite. The country has blown a lot of money on the war. And the conflict hurt the world economy.

- You have to see how real politik works: the US has been destroying its main economic and political competitor that is Europe, hurting Russia all with a narrow group of people stealing and profiting from war

[/QUOTE]See following the quotes above.

[QUOTE=MarquisdeSade1;2960988]

I love all the Russian people espec My Dearest Vladimir.

Long live the Motherland!![/QUOTE]Amores perros.

Charles Lindbergh, Henry Ford, Ezra Pound. They loved too. Deeply.

Now it's your turn.

You're in a good company.

[QUOTE=Elvis2008;2960935] It would be nice to have a president interested in putting money in our pocket versus robbing us blind to pay for dumb wars like this one.[/QUOTE]Sounds like a similar betrayal of UA like Putler did. Written agreements, like the Budapest Memorandum, only required to keep American and Russian interests. As long as an agreement is beneficial to the USA, it has to be kept by the other party. In worst case, Navy, Army or Air Force will look after it. The USA, of course, has no obligation at all.

[QUOTE=Elvis2008;2960935]I do too and love all his appointments. I looked up Biden's vaunted IRS in 2023 and saw that they audited about half a million people and collected like $30 billion. I think that is like half of what is sent to Ukraine every year. There is this constant notion of rich people getting away with holding all this money when in fact government spending dwarfs the richest people by a country mile.

I think Trump's biggest mistake was kowtowing to the bureaucrats on Covid. He spent like crazy in 2020 and it was not necessary. Thing is there was this huge cost that few thought would happen with all this government spending, inflation. Last I checked the Trump tax cuts cost $200 billion per year. Because of inflation and higher interest rates interest on the national debt, our interest payments have gone from $500 billion under Trump to $1. 1 trillion under Biden yet all these dumb Democratic douches talk about is the budget deficit and tax cuts. It is bullshit.

I am so sick of these WW2 and Hilter analogies. Wars back then were fought over scarce resources. That is less of an issue today, and we have fucking nukes. For all this talk about Putin taking over Europe, no one has given any reason as to why he would want to. Russia has more land than any country in the world.

If you are telling me Putin is the boogeyman while you are picking my pocket, YOU are the boogeyman.

With the video, what you saw is Hamas wanting peace, the Saudis kicking Hamas out of their country, the Houthis saying they were no longer going to attack ships in the Red Sea, Moscow saying there were willing to negotiate with Ukraine, and China making peaceful commentary, and you know why? Because Biden loved war and spent a lot on it. With Trump there is a helluva lot less money in war. A friend of mine said the real reason the Houthis were attacking ships in the Red Sea is they were hopeful Biden would pay them not to. And all this happened after Trump was elected.

To be honest, my biggest fear was Trump would back down from a fight with the DOJ and fall back into the spending ways of his first term. I am glad that fear was unfounded.

Hopefully, Trump gets us out of NATO, returns how much that has cost the American taxpayer with an additional tax cut, and gets LNG plants going so that Europe can buy gas from us. It would be nice to have a president interested in putting money in our pocket versus robbing us blind to pay for dumb wars like this one.[/QUOTE]Despite the criticism from the press, I like the Gabbard appointment. She's not a neoconservative, and unlike many in the Biden and Trump administrations, she doesn't want war with China. I'd love to see Musk take an axe to some of our foolish expenditures on defense, like senseless foreign involvements, although that may be too much to hope for. And agree with you. Trump's biggest failing was spending too much money, especially as we were getting to the tail end of 2020. Note that Pelosi and House Democrats played just as big a role in that as he did though.

Agreed about the LNG. Why would you want to shut down permitting like Biden did? LNG overall probably reduces carbon emissions, by substituting for coal.

[QUOTE=Questner;2961001]See following the quotes above.[/QUOTE]Thanks Questner. I agree about the confiscated property, frozen funds and sanctions. It seems like the USA would have learned from Cuba and Iran that those types of measures backfire. But instead America keeps them in effect forever. As to USA realpolitik of the the type you describe, I believe the beneficiaries are the USA military and defense establishment, not American individuals or businesses.

[QUOTE=ReinerOtto;2961039]Sounds like a similar betrayal of UA like Putler did.[/QUOTE]Sorry, but I do not agree with the notion that a bunch of Democrats who provoked Russia and helped start a war that has hurt Ukraine, Russia, and the USA then later drafted statements and agreements means we have to follow them. Ukraine needed to assess the notion that a change of power in the USA would result in this agreement being terminated.

Whatever promises Ukraine was given, the American pols who did so had no justification in putting the interest of Ukrainian citizens over American citizens. I don't give a rat ass about Ukraine taking the word of Democratic law makers. Ukraine was stupid to have listened to those Dems. The 2024 election was a sharp rebuke of not just the Democratic presidential candidates but the Congressional ones.

Americans are sick to death of these costly endless wars.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2961197]Despite the criticism from the press, I like the Gabbard appointment. She's not a neoconservative, and unlike many in the Biden and Trump administrations, she doesn't want war with China. [/QUOTE]I agree, and I like Pete Hegseth as well. They both have served in the military. What I see from them and what I have seen from every person I know has served in the military in the last ten years is this. The soldiers like the military for the skills they gained, the discipline they learned, have intense love for their fellow soldiers but not one feels like they were serving and protecting our country which is why they signed up.

One soldier summed it up perfectly. He said our supposed enemies were not the nations that were the greatest threat to American citizens, but they were the greatest threat to the USA dollar. Can you imagine that? Risking your life to go to war with a country that is dreaming up an alternative to the dollar? That is not what the military is for. If these fucking pols want a strong dollar, they should embrace sound economic policies not the effing military.

The clown says the war will end sooner with the new team. All that suffering and the moron gets it now.

[QUOTE=Elvis2008;2961202]Sorry, but I do not agree with the notion that a bunch of Democrats who provoked Russia and helped start a war that has hurt Ukraine, Russia, and the USA then later drafted statements and agreements means we have to follow them... [/QUOTE]Maybe that agreement is the 1994 Budapest Memorandum? ([URL]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum[/URL]). Check it out. Signed under Clinton but negociated by the H. W. Bush administration. Britain, France, China and the Russian Federation are also cosigners. All parties agreed to defend the boundaries of Ukraine in exchange for them giving up their (1700+) nuclear weapons. Do you believe Russia would have invaded Ukraine if it still had those nukes?

[QUOTE=Elvis2008;2961205]I agree, and I like Pete Hegseth as well. They both have served in the military. What I see from them and what I have seen from every person I know has served in the military in the last ten years is this. The soldiers like the military for the skills they gained, the discipline they learned, have intense love for their fellow soldiers but not one feels like they were serving and protecting our country which is why they signed up.

One soldier summed it up perfectly. He said our supposed enemies were not the nations that were the greatest threat to American citizens, but they were the greatest threat to the USA dollar. Can you imagine that? Risking your life to go to war with a country that is dreaming up an alternative to the dollar? That is not what the military is for. If these fucking pols want a strong dollar, they should embrace sound economic policies not the effing military.[/QUOTE]Once again, Elvis is excising his constitutional right to spew more lies and unmitigated insanity.

1. No one is calling for Americans to fight and risk their lives for Ukraine, least of all the Ukrainians.

2. Any alternative to the US dollar is a pipe dream. No economists worth their salt take BRIC seriously. It's a a loose, want to-be, dysfunctional association with non-convertable currencies, torn by distrust and internal struggles.

Well, at least you're consistent. No one can take it away from you.

[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2961430]Maybe that agreement is the 1994 Budapest Memorandum? ([URL]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum[/URL]). Check it out. Signed under Clinton but negociated by the H. W. Bush administration. Britain, France, China and the Russian Federation are also cosigners. All parties agreed to defend the boundaries of Ukraine in exchange for them giving up their (1700+) nuclear weapons. Do you believe Russia would have invaded Ukraine if it still had those nukes?[/QUOTE]So you want Ukraine to have nukes now?

[QUOTE=Riina;2961414]The clown says the war will end sooner with the new team. All that suffering and the moron gets it now.[/QUOTE]He knows the money will soon run out so of course that sack of shit will talk like this now. History will judge that clown very harshly.

[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2961430]Maybe that agreement is the 1994 Budapest Memorandum? ([URL]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum[/URL]). Check it out. Signed under Clinton but negociated by the H. W. Bush administration. Britain, France, China and the Russian Federation are also cosigners. All parties agreed to defend the boundaries of Ukraine in exchange for them giving up their (1700+) nuclear weapons. Do you believe Russia would have invaded Ukraine if it still had those nukes?[/QUOTE]So why didn't they? Is it cause they are cunts that don't give a shit about Ukraine?

Also, those nukes in Ukraine belonged to Russia, the successor to the USSR and hence were returned to the owner.

[QUOTE=Xpartan;2961432]Once again, Elvis is excising his constitutional right to spew more lies and unmitigated insanity.

1. No one is calling for Americans to fight and risk their lives for Ukraine, least of all the Ukrainians.

.[/QUOTE]Of course not, there are still Ukrainians to send to the front line to die for nothing. Until the last Ukrainian as Lindsey Graham said.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2961591]
Also, those nukes in Ukraine belonged to Russia, the successor to the USSR and hence were returned to the owner.[/QUOTE]This is only your private, unfounded opinion. Or the official Russian opinion, you (have to) follow. Which does not reflect historical facts.

Quoting: POST-SOVIET RUSSIA AND UKRAINE:
WHO CAN PUSH THE BUTTON?
By Alexander A. Pikayev, 1994.
Dr. Alexander A. Pikayev is Senior Researcher at the Institute of World Economy and International Relations.
(IMEMO). He is also Research Director of the newly-formed Center for Critical Technologies and Nonproliferation in Moscow.

... In late 1993, the Ukrainians began removing warheads from the Ballistic missiles. The removal, Transportation, and storage were provided by Ukrainian troops. This
became a watershed, which marked the transition of Kiev's command and control into a stage of more autonomous and active operations. For the first time, the Ukrainian troops on their own initiative, physically touched nuclear weapons.

The Budapester Memorandum, 1994, was to exchange the nuclear armament of the UA against safety guarantees and some money for the UA, and to agree to the NPT (Non-Proliferation Treaty of Nuclear Weapons).
Which means, first the UA was f. By Putler, ignoring the Budapest Memorandum, and then UA to be f. By the USA, too, dropping support.
Consequence for all non-atomic countries, that the NPT has only the value of used toilet paper. Non-atomic country has to become atomic, to be protected.

[QUOTE=Elvis2008;2961202] Ukraine needed to assess the notion that a change of power in the USA would result in this agreement being terminated.
Whatever promises Ukraine was given, the American pols who did so had no justification in putting the interest of Ukrainian citizens over American citizens.[/QUOTE]Wow, I like that. Because it confirms, what lot of foreigners claim for a long time already: You can not trust the USA. You can not even trust written agreements, officially signed by the USA.

[QUOTE=ReinerOtto;2961625]Wow, I like that. Because it confirms, what lot of foreigners claim for a long time already: You can not trust the USA. You can not even trust written agreements, officially signed by the USA.[/QUOTE]That's true.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2961591]So why didn't they? Is it cause they are cunts that don't give a shit about Ukraine?[/QUOTE]Doesn't it make your Failed Mafia State a very special kind of ****? The **** that invaded the neighbor it swore to defend?

[QUOTE=ReinerOtto;2961616]This is only your private, unfounded opinion. Or the official Russian opinion, you (have to) follow. Which does not reflect historical facts.

Quoting: POST-SOVIET RUSSIA AND UKRAINE:
WHO CAN PUSH THE BUTTON?
By Alexander A. Pikayev, 1994.
Dr. Alexander A. Pikayev is Senior Researcher at the Institute of World Economy and International Relations.
(IMEMO). He is also Research Director of the newly-formed Center for Critical Technologies and Nonproliferation in Moscow.

... In late 1993, the Ukrainians began removing warheads from the Ballistic missiles. The removal, Transportation, and storage were provided by Ukrainian troops. This
became a watershed, which marked the transition of Kiev's command and control into a stage of more autonomous and active operations. For the first time, the Ukrainian troops on their own initiative, physically touched nuclear weapons.

The Budapester Memorandum, 1994, was to exchange the nuclear armament of the UA against safety guarantees and some money for the UA, and to agree to the NPT (Non-Proliferation Treaty of Nuclear Weapons).
Which means, first the UA was f. By Putler, ignoring the Budapest Memorandum, and then UA to be f. By the USA, too, dropping support.
Consequence for all non-atomic countries, that the NPT has only the value of used toilet paper. Non-atomic country has to become atomic, to be protected.[/QUOTE]I don't know what's so hard for you to understand. The nukes belonged to the Soviet Union. They were in places like Belarus, Ukraine, Kazakhstan, etc. Russia was the inheritor to the Soviet Union. That's why all the former Soviet Republics I listed returned those nukes to Russia, as did Ukraine.

[QUOTE=ReinerOtto;2961625]Wow, I like that. Because it confirms, what lot of foreigners claim for a long time already: You can not trust the USA. You can not even trust written agreements, officially signed by the USA.[/QUOTE]That's right. Soon all of you will understand that America aka NATO just used Ukraine to weaken Russia but, in the process, destroyed the country. And that they don't care about that, they sacrificed Ukraine for their proxy war and that is horrific.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2961918]That's right. Soon all of you will understand that America aka NATO just used Ukraine to weaken Russia but, in the process, destroyed the country. And that they don't care about that, they sacrificed Ukraine for their proxy war and that is horrific.[/QUOTE]This is Russian propaganda, word for word. Ukraine is a sovereign nation with internationally recognized borders. Simply and truthfully, it was invaded by Russia in 2014 in a war of aggression in an act of pure territorial aggrandizement. NATO and the US did not foment this war; if anything, they did not resist it strongly enough in 2014 or 2022. The war would stop immediately if the RF withdrew behind the 1992 border, which they guaranteed by treaty in 1994.

[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2961944]This is Russian propaganda, word for word. Ukraine is a sovereign nation with internationally recognized borders. Simply and truthfully, it was invaded by Russia in 2014 in a war of aggression in an act of pure territorial aggrandizement. NATO and the US did not foment this war; if anything, they did not resist it strongly enough in 2014 or 2022. The war would stop immediately if the RF withdrew behind the 1992 border, which they guaranteed by treaty in 1994.[/QUOTE]You live in gaga land.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2962020]You live in gaga land.[/QUOTE]How're your Russian stocks doing?

[QUOTE=ReinerOtto;2961625]Wow, I like that. Because it confirms, what lot of foreigners claim for a long time already: You can not trust the USA. You can not even trust written agreements, officially signed by the USA.[/QUOTE]I am an American, and I do not trust our government. I do not know why anyone else would either.

[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2961944]This is Russian propaganda, word for word. Ukraine is a sovereign nation with internationally recognized borders. Simply and truthfully, it was invaded by Russia in 2014 in a war of aggression in an act of pure territorial aggrandizement. NATO and the US did not foment this war; if anything, they did not resist it strongly enough in 2014 or 2022. The war would stop immediately if the RF withdrew behind the 1992 border, which they guaranteed by treaty in 1994.[/QUOTE]I know some well known and respected CIA liasons that claim otherwise. Just ask a simple question. How many baracks and US military bases exist *OUTSIDE* the US and where are they situated?

Putin's glorious DPRK allies have finally joined their Russian brothers in arms in doing what Russians do best: marauding, drinking and raping. But since they're currently deployed in Kursk, they've taken their fight to Russian civilians. That's only logical for there're not many Ukrainian Bandera Nazi scum in step-Mother Russia, right? But I digress.

[B]North Korean Soldiers Accused of Gang-Raping Russian Student During Training[/B]

[QUOTE]North Korean soldiers deployed to Russias Kursk region to participate in the Russia-Ukraine conflict were apprehended on November 12 on charges of gang-raping a local university student.

As part of the North Korean Military Adaptation Program, the victim was staying in the village of Kromsky Viki, approximately 15 kilometers (approximately 9.3 miles) from the combat zone in the Kursk region.

In an account shared on a Telegram channel reporting on the Ukraine war, she stated that I woke up in the middle of the night feeling suffocated. She continued that men speaking Korean taped my mouth, tied my hands, stripped me, and began beating and raping me, adding I was raped consecutively by four or five men. Their appearances were similar; she couldnt determine the exact number.

She recounted that after enduring two hours of abuse, she managed to escape while the soldiers were searching for vodka. She described the experience as unbearable and horrific, expressing uncertainty about how to continue living after such an ordeal.[/QUOTE][URL]https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/north-korean-soldiers-accused-of-gang-raping-russian-student-during-training/ar-AA1uvv8N[/URL]

[QUOTE=Argo1990;2962956]I know some well known and respected CIA liasons that claim otherwise. Just ask a simple question. How many baracks and US military bases exist *OUTSIDE* the US and where are they situated?[/QUOTE]Now I've officially seen everything.

Try harder next time.

[QUOTE=Xpartan;2962978]Putin's glorious DPRK allies have finally joined their Russian brothers in arms in doing what Russians do best: marauding, drinking and raping. But since they're currently deployed in Kursk, they've taken their fight to Russian civilians. That's only logical for there're not many Ukrainian Bandera Nazi scum in step-Mother Russia, right? But I digress.

[B]North Korean Soldiers Accused of Gang-Raping Russian Student During Training[/B]

[URL]https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/north-korean-soldiers-accused-of-gang-raping-russian-student-during-training/ar-AA1uvv8N[/URL][/QUOTE]Where is the evidence of North Korean troops in Kursk or any other place in Ukraine? A post by a Telegram channel isn't evidence, shit4 brains.

Following an update to the nuclear doctrine by Russia, there are two comprehensive cooperation agreements in the making, one with Iran and the second with Venezuela. The agreement with and Korea has been ratified and signed by both parties with the exchange of the ratified documents to follow. These have very clear messages indeed.

[B]'It's a slaughter': Video claiming to show North Korean soldier captured in Kursk emerges[/B]

[QUOTE]The video shows a man, presumed to be a North Korean soldier, lying in a hospital bed with bandages wrapped around his head and face, stained with blood and pus. His speech is hard to understand, but the video claims that he said in what did appear to be a North Korean accent that he was the only survivor of the Kursk engagement.

According to the video, the soldier stated that the Russian military deceived them, claiming the North Koreans would "build fortifications and guard the objects."

But they sent us on an assault in the Kursk region, without any reconnaissance or proper weapons to defend ourselves, he said.

He added, There were about 40 of us, but all are dead, I am left alone, I have nothing to lose. He described how shrapnel decapitated his comrades, and that he survived by hiding under their bodies.

"The Ukrainians killed everyone, the blame for their death lies with the Russian army and President Putin, he deceived our Great Leader, the sun-faced Kim Jong-un," he said, according to the subtitles.[/QUOTE][URL]https://koreajoongangdaily.joins.com/news/2024-11-01/national/northKorea/Its-a-slaughter-Video-claiming-to-show-North-Korean-soldier-captured-in-Kursk-emerges/2168699[/URL]

Below is the quote from the Ukrainian POV on the events of 2004:

On November 22nd a round date passed by without much notice - 20 years since the beginning of the first ("orange") Maidan in 2004.

Meanwhile, this event played a huge role in the history of Ukraine. In particular, it became one of the steps leading to the current bloody war.

Therefore, it is worth remembering what preceded the Maidan and what consequences it had.

The path to it began about 25 years ago. In the fall of 1999.

In the 90's, after the collapse of the USSR, the geopolitical landscape in the post-Soviet space was fundamentally different from what we see now.

Ukraine, as well as most other CIS countries, was then on the periphery of Washington's attention, which saw Yeltsin's Russia as its main partner and "stronghold" in the territory of the former Union.

However, gradually, more and more "alarm bells" sounded for the Americans that the Russian Federation was not going in the direction they would like.

One of these rang in 1999, when the Russian Federation did not support NATO's attack on Yugoslavia. In August, Yeltsin announced FSB chief Vladimir Putin as his successor. Putin promised to "whack" terrorists in the toilet, after the explosions of apartment buildings in Moscow in the fall of 1999, he started the second Chechen war, and quickly increased his rating. Washington viewed all these processes with great concern. And after Putin came to power, there were even more warning signs, and America came to the conclusion that "Russia had taken a wrong turn. ".

Accordingly, it became necessary to look for a new "support point" in the post-Soviet space, with the help of which, in addition, it would be possible to influence Russia, trying to return the Russian Federation to the "true path. " Or, at a minimum, not to allow it to grow stronger and start its own game with Europe, separate from the Americans.

Then, for the first time, a substantive and systemic interest in Ukraine at a high level awakened in the United States. Moreover, at that time, Zbigniew Brzezinski's theory was popular that "Russia will never become an empire again without Ukraine. " This theory was obviously false (within the 1991 borders, even without Ukraine and regardless of the nature of relations with Ukraine, the Russian Federation had every opportunity to develop and increase its power), but it played a major role in subsequent events, since it sharply exaggerated the geopolitical significance of Ukraine and, accordingly, pushed Russia and the West to fight for influence over it.

At the end of 1999, Leonid Kuchma, who was re-elected for his second presidential term, appointed the head of the National Bank, Viktor Yushchenko, as Prime Minister. According to a widespread version, he did this on the recommendation of the United States. Kuchma agreed with it, on the one hand, to get more favorable conditions for restructuring the external debt. And on the other hand, in order to generally improve relations with Washington, which, by that time, had become tense. Kuchma was increasingly accused of corruption, violation of human rights and freedoms, and election fraud.

Yushchenko solved the first problem (debt restructuring) quite quickly. But he made the second problem (the deterioration of Kuchma's relations with the West) worse.

The popularity of the new prime minister and his political weight in the country began to grow. And many began to view him as a future president. Including in the West. Accordingly, various questions to Kuchma began to arise more and more often in Washington. And the patronage of Western countries to Viktor Yushchenko became more and more obvious.

Kuchma soon recognized these signals and began preparing a sharp turnaround in the fall of 2000. In domestic policy, the resignation of the Yushchenko government. In foreign policy, rapprochement with the Russian Federation. That year, Kuchma met with Putin several times. And by early September, information appeared that they were discussing the creation of a joint consortium to manage Ukraine's gas transportation system.

However, an event occurred that ruined these plans: the tape scandal broke out, which became a powerful blow to the president. Protests began, supported by the West. And George Soros directly called on Kuchma to resign.

Kuchma held on to his post, Yushchenko's government was dismissed by the Verkhovna Rada, but the situation in the country was already radically different. Kuchma's power was wavering and he could no longer even think about running for a third term. And Yushchenko, on whom the West was openly counting, was perceived by an increasing number of people and representatives of the elite as the next president.

However, Kuchma and his inner circle did not consider Yushchenko as such. First, they tried to amend the Constitution in order to turn the president into a figurehead, and then, when this plan failed in April 2004, they agreed (largely out of necessity) to nominate the then prime minister, former governor of Donetsk Oblast, Viktor Yanukovych, for president.

The 2004 elections had long-term consequences. They were the first to test the technology of dividing voters into two hostile camps.

Yushchenko's political strategists talked about "Donetsk bandits", demonizing not only Yanukovych and his associates, but also all residents of Donbass.

Yanukovych's political strategists. About "fascists and Banderites" who "hate the southeast".

At the same time, a geopolitical line was built into the political technology. Who are you for, Russia or Europe?

The split created in this way led to natural consequences. A sharp increase in the confrontation in society, which resulted in the Maidan of Yushchenko's supporters (who did not recognize the declared victory of Yanukovych in the second round of the elections) and the threat of secession of the southeast from Ukraine, publicly declared at the congress of Yanukovych's supporters in Severodonetsk. External players. Russia and the West. Also actively joined the confrontation, helping the two competing camps.

Then everything worked out. The parties came to a compromise: Yushchenko was elected president in the third round, but the parliament adopted amendments to the Constitution, which reduced his powers.

It was already clear then that turning Ukraine into a field of geopolitical confrontation between the West and Russia and provoking by politicians hostility between residents of different regions was a mine of enormous power under Ukrainian statehood.

Ukraine had a choice of three strategic development paths.

The first was to take a clear course towards integration into Western institutions. The EU and NATO.

The second was to take a course towards integration with Russia, joining the Collective Security Treaty Organization (CSTO) and other organizations headed by Moscow, such as Kazakhstan or Belarus.

The third was to take a position of official neutrality.

The first two paths were practically impossible for Ukraine at that time without very large upheavals. Due to the opposition of geopolitical players and the split in society on these issues.

But the path of neutrality was real. Moreover, it suited the Ukrainian elites (who wanted to run the country themselves, not allowing either the West or Russia to reach the commanding heights in the economy and politics). This was the policy that Kuchma tried to pursue before the tape scandal. In general, this path was acceptable for society. But in order to follow it, both society and the elites had to be consolidated around this idea. Which implied a taboo on discussing the issue of geopolitical orientation in domestic politics (neutrality should not be questioned by anyone), as well as on any topics that would divide society.

However, the Ukrainian elites took a different, worse path. They perceived the political technology of dividing society as a very convenient method of managing voters, and at the same time as a very profitable way (as it seemed to them then) of flirting with the West and the Russian Federation in order to receive preferences from both sides.

The Ukrainian elites were divided into supposedly "pro-Russian" and supposedly "pro-European" political forces, which replaced each other in power. And sometimes simply ran from one camp to another.

A typical example is Petro Poroshenko, who in 2000, together with Azarov, became the founder of the Party of Regions, in 2001 bought the Lipetsk factory, and then joined Yushchenko's entourage, becoming one of the leaders of the Maidan. After Yanukovych came to power, Poroshenko supported the Kharkiv agreements on extending the stay of the Russian Black Sea Fleet in Crimea, became the Minister of Economy in the Azarov government, was friends with the Russian Ambassador to Ukraine Zurabov, attended a meeting of the Skovoroda club, which was held by the Russian TV presenter Dmitry Kiselev in the Kureni restaurant in Kiev. And in 2013, he again became one of the leaders of the Maidan.

Let us repeat that the Ukrainian elites in reality did not want to go either to the West or to Russia. They simply wanted to continue "milking" the country according to the principle "Texas should be robbed by Texans. " Earn money from economic ties with the Russian Federation and keep the money taken out of Ukraine in the West, while also receiving cheap loans from there.

This scheme worked for some time – while Russia's relations with the West were still relatively normal.

However, in 2010-2012 these relations became strained. Russia and the USA began to enter into a clinch.

Firstly, the 2008 crisis significantly changed the balance of power both in the world and in Europe. It hit the West the hardest, weakening it. At the same time, Russia (due to high energy prices), China and other countries of the global south (due to more efficient and competitive production) strengthened their positions. In addition, the moral authority of the United States in the world was undermined by the policy of the neoconservatives of the George W. Bush era and the war in Iraq.

As a result, Europe began to increasingly strengthen ties with Russia and China. First of all, economic (trade and mutual investments). But politics always follows economics. At that time, there were popular predictions about the creation of a "united Europe from Lisbon to Kamchatka" with the entry of Russia into the European Union, which would turn the EU into a powerful and self-sufficient geopolitical player, and Russia into one of its leaders (along with Germany and France).

Naturally, this was not a close and difficult prospect, but it did not seem completely fantastic at the time. Russia in 2013 was very different from Russia in 2024. It was not a democratic country, but it was not a harsh dictatorship either. It was a moderate authoritarian regime, under which Navalny could run for mayor of Moscow, taking second place, modernization according to European standards was taking place in many areas, people were getting used to paying taxes, the standard of living was rapidly growing, corruption was decreasing, and the quality of public administration was improving.

However, the option of an alliance between Russia and the EU was perceived by the Americans as a major threat. Accordingly, in the eyes of Washington, the role of Ukraine sharply increased. As a country where the interests of the European Union and the Russian Federation clashed, and the struggle for influence over which could destroy relations between Russia and Europe.

Secondly, Moscow intensified integration processes in the CIS by launching the Customs Union, which included Russia, Belarus and Kazakhstan (Putin presented the see you as a way to strengthen the positions of post-Soviet countries before negotiations on an economic alliance with the EU). The Kremlin tried to lure Ukraine into the Customs Union, which the West did not want to allow.

Finally, a personal confrontation was added: the Americans opposed Putin's third presidential term. According to Russian critic Garry Kasparov, Biden directly told Putin during a visit to Moscow in March 2011 that he did not need to run for president again (Kasparov claims that Biden himself reported this conversation at a meeting with the Russian opposition, and no one has since refuted this fact). Putin did not listen and was re-elected in 2012. The US demand not to run and Putin's refusal to comply further strained relations between Moscow and Washington, moving them to a "personal" level. The Americans sought to punish Putin for his "disobedience" so that others would learn a lesson, and Putin wanted to show them that he was a "tough guy" with whom they should talk as equals, and not tell him what to do and what not to do.

Ukraine, perhaps, even in such conditions, still had a chance to avoid turning into a battlefield. A chance to leave the brewing conflict in the "geopolitical AWOL", taking an emphatically neutral position, trying not to exacerbate the contradictions between the Russian Federation and the EU in the Ukrainian direction, but on the contrary, trying to smooth them out, if possible. But for such a strategy, at a minimum, a consensus on this issue within Ukraine was necessary, which was nowhere near in sight. Yanukovych threw Tymoshenko in jail, and the opposition launched chants of "thank you to the residents of Donbass for the fruitcake president" into the people.

Finally, a fatal role was played by the fact that Yanukovych, not appreciating the danger for Ukraine and himself personally from the growing confrontation between the Russian Federation and the West, decided, out of habit, to make money on it by throwing coal into the furnace of geopolitical contradictions.

Although initially Yanukovych pursued a very cautious policy. He signed the Kharkiv agreements with Russia on the Black Sea Fleet in exchange for a discount on gas. He also pushed through the Rada the law "On the principles of foreign and domestic policy", which established the non-aligned status of Ukraine. At the same time, he continued to develop relations with the West.

But by the end of 2010, world oil prices had risen sharply, and so had the price of gas for Ukraine. And Yanukovych began difficult negotiations with the Russian Federation about a new discount on gas. The Kremlin was ready to provide it, but only in exchange for joining the Customs Union, which Yanukovych did not want to join. Firstly, he did not intend to share control over customs (which played a major role in corruption schemes) with any supranational bodies. On the other hand, he feared a harsh reaction from the West and the opposition.

That is why Yanukovych started looking for a way to get a discount on gas (as well as other preferences from the Russian Federation) without joining the Customs Union. And, as it seemed to him, he found such a way. To intensify negotiations on signing the Association Agreement with the EU, and then "sell" Putin the refusal to sign it. And to get everything he needed from Moscow without membership in the Customs Union. Formally, this plan was almost 100% successful. In November 2013, Ukraine suspended negotiations on signing the Agreement, and in December, Putin gave Ukraine a big discount on gas and a huge loan. And all this. Without joining the Customs Union. Using the resource he received, Yanukovych had the opportunity to raise salaries and pensions on the eve of the presidential elections scheduled for March 2015, and to win them.

That is, Yanukovych could have celebrated a grand geopolitical victory, but there was one nuance. By that time the Maidan was already raging.

In many ways, Yanukovych himself prepared it. Trying to "raise the stakes" in negotiations with Putin, he portrayed himself as an ardent Euro-integrator, and official propaganda presented the Association with the EU in much the same way as in Soviet times they talked about the coming onset of communism. This gave rise to great hopes among a significant part of the population ("we are about to join the EU! The West was already anticipating how he would "beat Putin".

And when suddenly, without much explanation, Yanukovych pressed the "stop" pedal, halting negotiations on the Association Agreement, this caused a storm both inside and outside the country. And the opposition and businessmen close to it saw in this storm a chance, by leading the Maidan, to remove the "Donetsk people" from power and to sit down in their place on corruption schemes.

Yanukovych made too sharp a turn, was unable to keep the situation under control and Maidan toppled him.

What happened next is well known (we wrote about this topic in detail here and here).

Subsequent events overshadowed what preceded them, including the Maidan of 2004.

But it is important to remember it in order to understand the origins of problems that did not begin in 2022 or even in 2014.

[QUOTE=Questner;2963153]Following an update to the nuclear doctrine by Russia, there are two comprehensive cooperation agreements in the making, one with Iran and the second with Venezuela. The agreement with and Korea has been ratified and signed by both parties with the exchange of the ratified documents to follow. These have very clear messages indeed.[/QUOTE]The very clear message is that over the last 30 years or so, the dumb shits in Washington, London, Paris, etc. fucked up. The West has made Russia into a pariah. If we had friendly relations, Russia would be trying to control nuclear proliferation instead. It's time to end the war and start to repair the damage.

[QUOTE=Questner;2963393]Below is the quote from the Ukrainian POV on the events of 2004:


Subsequent events overshadowed what preceded them, including the Maidan of 2004.

But it is important to remember it in order to understand the origins of problems that did not begin in 2022 or even in 2014.[/QUOTE]Putin propagandists always try to complicate things. The truth, on the other hand, is plain and simple.

First thing that's important to remember is that Putin invaded an independent country because it dared to choose its own path.

Second thing that's important to remember is that Putin's Russia today is a rotten to the core fascist state, with a regime that's in many ways more repressive than Mussolini's Italy of 1930's.

Third thing that's important to remember is that Putin is a mass murderer who has already murdered close to 1 million people, both Russians and Ukrainians.

That's it. The whole "origin of problems" is Putin himself plus some Russians' insane, atavistic nostalgia over their "great empire" (which has never been great to begin with).

[QUOTE=Xpartan;2963211][B]'It's a slaughter': Video claiming to show North Korean soldier captured in Kursk emerges[/B]

[URL]https://koreajoongangdaily.joins.com/news/2024-11-01/national/northKorea/Its-a-slaughter-Video-claiming-to-show-North-Korean-soldier-captured-in-Kursk-emerges/2168699[/URL][/QUOTE]Where is the video? Video 'claiming'. LOL. You imbecile.

There are however ex British soldiers in Kursk.

[URL]https://x.com/Megatron_ron/status/1860721377889628276/video/1[/URL]

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2963494]There are however ex British soldiers in Kursk.

[URL]https://x.com/Megatron_ron/status/1860721377889628276/video/1[/URL][/QUOTE]I feel bad for you having to maintain the official line. RUB / USD is about. 0096 today. From a monetary POV, if it falls below. 0085 it's over. My advice? Sell any Russian stocks and convert as many rubles as you can while you have time.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2963412]The very clear message is that over the last 30 years or so, the dumb shits in Washington, London, Paris, etc. fucked up. The West has made Russia into a pariah. If we had friendly relations, Russia would be trying to control nuclear proliferation instead. It's time to end the war and start to repair the damage.[/QUOTE]The US nukes first of all should not be deployed in the Netherlands, Belgium, Turkiye, Italy and Germany as it contravenes the non-proliferation agreements, by the way.

As for a 'pariah' we don't feel it this way, it's just another example of a Western POV. In fact majority of countries by the number, population, territory etc are our friends.

[QUOTE=Questner;2963603]As for a 'pariah' we don't feel it this way, it's just another example of a Western POV. In fact majority of countries by the number, population, territory etc are our friends.[/QUOTE]Sorry, "pariah" was a bad choice of words. I agree.

[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2963548]I feel bad for you having to maintain the official line. RUB / USD is about. 0096 today. From a monetary POV, if it falls below. 0085 it's over. My advice? Sell any Russian stocks and convert as many rubles as you can while you have time.[/QUOTE]That's mostly a function of USA Dollar strength. The dollar's been gaining against most currencies. Russia's current account (trade balance) and external debt are in great shape. Its sovereign reserves would be huge if part hadn't been impounded by western nations, and they're still large. The real interest rate is greater than 10%. In other words, I don't think you have much of a case.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2963489]Where is the video? Video 'claiming'. LOL. You imbecile.[/QUOTE]Boy, don't I love it when Russian propacondoms are trying to catch me on a lie!

[URL]https://x.com/i/status/1852039145482523086[/URL]

Today:

1 US Dollar = 105.40 Russian Ruble and counting.

And a little history:

- Jan 2014 (pre-Crimea grab): 35 to $1.

- Jan 2015:69 to $1.

- Jan 2022 (pre-Kyiv in 3 days): 77 to $1.

- Nov 2024 (1,000 days post Kyiv in 3 days): 105 to $1 USD.

What was that? Western sanctions have made Russian economy stronger than ever?

Well then, keep up the good work, hehe.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2963852]That's mostly a function of USA Dollar strength. The dollar's been gaining against most currencies. Russia's current account (trade balance) and external debt are in great shape. Its sovereign reserves would be huge if part hadn't been impounded by western nations, and they're still large. The real interest rate is greater than 10%. In other words, I don't think you have much of a case.[/QUOTE]And don't you ever listen to all those so-called economists and other shit-for-brain "professionals". What the hell do they know, right?

[B]Rouble slides as new Russian sanctions stifle foreign trade[/B]

[URL]https://www.ft.com/content/6189fdb4-d1ef-4e0b-a7f1-e7f9a7286df5[/URL]

[B]Rouble slumps to over two-year low on new sanctions, geopolitical tension[/B]

[URL]https://www.reuters.com/markets/currencies/rouble-slumps-over-two-year-low-new-sanctions-geopolitical-tension-2024-11-22[/URL]

[B]Russian Ruble Hits Lowest Level Against Dollar Since March 2022[/B]

[URL]https://www.barrons.com/articles/russian-ruble-hits-lowest-level-against-us-dollar-since-march-2022-central-bank-bd988a73[/URL]

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2963852]...Russia's current account (trade balance) and external debt are in great shape. Its sovereign reserves would be huge if ...[/QUOTE]Yeah, haha. So far, the only recent hero of the RF has been Elvira Nabiullina, but there's very little that even a superb technocrat like her can do at this point...I'm waiting for her to get pushed out of a window or drink some bad tea. Really, I'm just trying to lay out a little dispassionate macroeconomic advice for the Russians on this forum, which is that the RF is in a downward economic spiral with a declining demographic, exodus of young people and knowledge workers, stagflation, a scarcity of workers and an economy smaller than the US state of New York. It is also a simple mercantalist economy dependent on the price of oil, which is declining in value. Brent is trading at $73, and I think Ural oil is selling at $20 less. Not only are oil and gas bound to decline in value, but Russian production, dependent on western drilling technology and skilled workers, is going down. My advice -- get what you can for your rubles now.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2963852]That's mostly a function of USA Dollar strength...[/QUOTE]Forgot to add, look at RUB vs CNY or JPY.

[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2963981]Forgot to add, look at RUB vs CNY or JPY.[/QUOTE]Well, especially given what's happened the last 12 hours, you've got a point. Further shutting Russia out from the world financial system is having an effect. If I were Russian, I wouldn't be jumping to exchange for USD right now, with Russian interest rates where they are, around 21% and inflation at 8.5%. This isn't like Turkey. Nabiullina is rational.

And yeah, I should have paid more attention to the actual values of the RUB/USD versus the U.S. dollar index instead of just the trend when I posted. I think what I wrote would have been reasonable up until a couple of weeks ago. The sanctions on Gazprombank are taking a toll.

The sanctions won't "work" by the way, any more than they did with Cuba or Iran. They just make Russia more determined to accomplish its goals, and piss off Russian citizens.

[QUOTE=Xpartan;2963869]Boy, don't I love it when Russian propacondoms are trying to catch me on a lie!

[URL]https://x.com/i/status/1852039145482523086[/URL][/QUOTE]The english subtitles are different than what he is actually saying. Fake news. Run along now, dumbass.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2964007]...The sanctions won't "work" by the way, any more than they did with Cuba or Iran. They just make Russia more determined to accomplish its goals, and piss off Russian citizens.[/QUOTE]Re: the inevitable end of the Russian Federation. I previously quoted Hemingway ("The Sun Also Rises") in response to 'How did you go bankrupt? "Two ways. Gradually, then suddenly". Historically, this is reminiscent of the fall of the Tsarist regime in 1917.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2964032]The english subtitles are different than what he is actually saying. Fake news. Run along now, dumbass.[/QUOTE]Just curious. Do they pay you a bonus?

So, after sliding down to 113 yesterday, the ruble has "strengthened" at the 110 to 1 mark.

"Great success" as Barat would say.

Now, we really need to understand what this $$$ rally is really all about.

It means two things, actually no, make it three.

1. Putin has burned through half of his Sovereign Wealth Fund reserves in the last 2 years. On what? Mostly to cover the budget deficits, one after another.

2. There is no actual currency market in Russia. Ruble is propped by the Finance Ministry. Actually, strike that -- there is no market economy, period. Back to the USSR, baby!

3. The dollar rally has a two-fold nature. For one thing, with the dwindling hard currency reserves, rubble is getting harder and harder to prop. But the Russians are also using this "organic" process for a excuse to devalue further and collect more taxes by the year end. As such, it's also a scam to rob people blind.

4. How are Russian people getting robbed? Well, since Russia itself is manufacturing only three things: oil, gas and death, everything else must come from import. That's how.

I'm sorry, did I promise three things? Well, you know Russia. It's a fucking Matreshka.

And now, there are strong rumors that the Saudis will bring the oil prices under $50 per barrel. What does it mean for Putin's inferior product?

It means, there is no way in hell they're going to succeed in keeping this unfolding catastrophe under control. The previous orator was totally right: It has 1917 written all over it.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2964007]Well, especially given what's happened the last 12 hours, you've got a point. Further shutting Russia out from the world financial system is having an effect. If I were Russian, I wouldn't be jumping to exchange for USD right now, with Russian interest rates where they are, around 21% and inflation at 8.5%. This isn't like Turkey. Nabiullina is rational.

And yeah, I should have paid more attention to the actual values of the RUB/USD versus the U.S. dollar index instead of just the trend when I posted. I think what I wrote would have been reasonable up until a couple of weeks ago. The sanctions on Gazprombank are taking a toll.

The sanctions won't "work" by the way, any more than they did with Cuba or Iran. They just make Russia more determined to accomplish its goals, and piss off Russian citizens.[/QUOTE]Inflation isn't at 8.5%, that's just what they are saying from the Kremlin.

If you look at actual prices, the real inflation is much higher.

As an example potatoes (which they grow domestically in abundance) are 64% dearer than at the start of the year.

This investment "advice" will not age well.

[QUOTE=Xpartan;2964088]Just curious. Do they pay you a bonus?[/QUOTE]I just pointed out to you your fake news and that the subtitles do not match what that guy is saying. Refrain from posting fake news and lies because I will continue to expose them and your dumbass.

[QUOTE=VinDici;2964130]Inflation isn't at 8.5%, that's just what they are saying from the Kremlin.

If you look at actual prices, the real inflation is much higher.

As an example potatoes (which they grow domestically in abundance) are 64% dearer than at the start of the year.

[b]This investment "advice" will not age well.[/b][/QUOTE]Maybe so and maybe not. Your thoughts about how Ukraine would progress in pushing back Russia have definitely not aged well.

Please take the Tiny Challenge again. Open the link below in two browser windows. Move the date on the interactive map in one of the browser windows back two years, to late November, 2022. Russia has made incremental gains since then. And hundreds of thousands on both sides have been killed and maimed. For nothing. Sounding like a broken record, the two sides need to start talking and negotiate a peace.

[URL]https://www.nzz.ch/english/ukraine-war-interactive-map-of-the-current-front-line-ld.1688087[/URL]

[QUOTE=VinDici;2964130]Inflation isn't at 8.5%, that's just what they are saying from the Kremlin.

If you look at actual prices, the real inflation is much higher.

As an example potatoes (which they grow domestically in abundance) are 64% dearer than at the start of the year.

This investment "advice" will not age well.[/QUOTE]I'm a huge proponent of using primary sources whenever possible. Even corrupt, unreliable and doctored sources, such as one of Putin's government organizations can give a better idea of what's really going on in that black hole of a country than a report concocted by a non-expert journalist (no matter how well-intentioned they are).

The Russian Central bank maintains an English version for its reports. The latest is here: [URL]https://cbr.ru/Collection/Collection/File/50781/Infl_exp_24-10_e.pdf[/URL].

You can safely skip the intro with its cheerful 8-8. 5% inflation forecast for 2024 and scroll down to the table because the table tells it all.

You'll find that the median "Inflation observed by households" for the previous 12 months reached 15.3% in October and 14.9% for the last three months.

The next row is family expectations. They were a bit optimistic compared to the real thing (13.4% vs. 15.3%.

But no matter how you slice it, there's no way the inflation will get down to 8% or even 8. 5% by the time Putin rings in the New Year.

So we can confidently assume that Russia's actual inflation rate in 2024 will have amounted to 15% AT THE MINIMUM and probably more.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2964249] Sounding like a broken record, the two sides need to start talking and negotiate a peace.[/QUOTE]Sounding like a broken record, but the aggressor needs to be defeated.

The International War Crime Tribunal needs to be established to punish all Russian war criminals who have failed to off themselves by the time they're taken out of their prison cells.

All fascists, isolationists, appeasers, propacondoms, agents of influence, useful idiots and brainless Russophiles need to shut the f* up and pronto.

There are probably many more things that NEED to be done, but I'm a realist.

Those things take time, and they won't happen tonight or tomorrow regardless how much they're NEEDED.

Any state or politician who pushes Ukraine into unconditional "negotiations" with the predator will live in infamy, forever and ever.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2964188]I just pointed out to you your fake news and that the subtitles do not match what that guy is saying. Refrain from posting fake news and lies because I will continue to expose them and your dumbass.[/QUOTE]Once again, Igor, and this is a very simple question: Are you proficient in Korean? Enough to know that the subs don't match?

Look, if you're insulted my question about the bonus, I apologize. I didn't mean to imply that you're only interested in money. After all, if you were only interested in money you wouldn't probably be doing this suck-ass job.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2964249]Maybe so and maybe not. Your thoughts about how Ukraine would progress in pushing back Russia have definitely not aged well.[/QUOTE]Which ones specifically have not aged well?

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2964249]Please take the Tiny Challenge again. Open the link below in two browser windows. Move the date on the interactive map in one of the browser windows back two years, to late November, 2022. Russia has made incremental gains since then. And hundreds of thousands on both sides have been killed and maimed. For nothing. Sounding like a broken record, the two sides need to start talking and negotiate a peace.[/QUOTE]Sure, can you take the Captain Obvious challenge? Explain why Russia can't withdraw their troops from other people's sovereign land, and negotiations need to be had that include theft of sovereign property?

Russia can leave at any time of their choosing, Ukraine cannot, it's their own land.

[QUOTE=VinDici;2964332]Which ones specifically have not aged well?

Sure, can you take the Captain Obvious challenge? Explain why Russia can't withdraw their troops from other people's sovereign land, and negotiations need to be had that include theft of sovereign property?

Russia can leave at any time of their choosing, Ukraine cannot, it's their own land.[/QUOTE]This war is insane. It's as if the USA and Canada were at war. Or Irish Catholics fighting Irish Protestants. I have expressed the thought that Zelensky should be more open to negotiation. But you haven't seen much criticism from me here directed towards Zelensky or Putin because I believe the villains were in the west, the Neocons and likeminded Europeans who want to fight the war to the last Ukrainian. There's no Captain Obvious answer, but we've discussed here what happened since 1992 to change Russia from a prospective NATO member into its position now.

As to your first question -- Reviewing some of your posts, you weren't as definitive about the timing of a Ukrainian victory as some other board members, but wrong all the same.

[QUOTE=VinDici;2748306]The Americans did not bomb Nordstream 2, it was the Russians. Evidence will be found soon enough, I'm so confident I will happily place a wager on this, do you want to take me up on this? I will bet that it was not the Americans, will you take the bet?[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=VinDici;2749178]This is the reason why Russia destroyed the pipeline. Gazprom is in breach of their contracts for shutting down gas supply and can be sued because of it. The destroyed pipelines are supposed to be "force majeure" which would give them en excuse not to deliver.

They already played their leverage card by stopping the deliveries.

Try and live in reality, and not in clown world for a change.[/QUOTE]All these are from after November, 2022, that is, after this had settled into trench warfare where, until recently, the front lines weren't moving:

[QUOTE=VinDici;2792743]Ukraine is winning hard...[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=VinDici;2804729]Typical idiot RuZZian living in the past. Let me explain it for you so that even an Orc can understand. When Bob Gates said that, that was before the RuZZian army was revealed to be a Paper Tiger. Now that everyone knows that Muscovy has a Potemkin army, the whole world is laughing, and people are not afraid. Look at the CSTO, members are getting ready to arrest Putin. Good job![/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=VinDici;2804123]It's gone too far, he might be able to hang on to Crimea barely, and UA will likely destroy the Kerch bridge, and not allow it to be rebuilt. With that result, he's still fucked. There's no way he can keep the UA land, and then what can he show to the RuZZians? Sweet Fuck All.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=VinDici;2818353]They are not being wiped out, rather the opposite, they just got Storm Shadows, they will get more, and then F-16's, what do you think will happen to the Orcs when that comes online? [/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=VinDici;2818677]Ukraine is not being wiped out, they are taking back territory….
[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Xpartan;2964288]Once again, Igor, and this is a very simple question: Are you proficient in Korean? Enough to know that the subs don't match?

[/QUOTE]Not myself but my Korean friend confirmed it. Do not post lies and fake news in this thread because it will be debunked by me, dipshit.

[QUOTE=Xpartan;2964088]Just curious. Do they pay you a bonus?[/QUOTE]Lame. You are so pressed that he exposed your ignorance and your attempt to spread misinformation and fake news. You have absolutely no dignity what so ever. Bugger off you simpleminded fool.

[QUOTE=Xpartan;2964284]Sounding like a broken record, but the aggressor needs to be defeated.

The International War Crime Tribunal needs to be established to punish all Russian war criminals who have failed to off themselves by the time they're taken out of their prison cells.[/QUOTE]Do you want a nuclear war?

[QUOTE=Xpartan;2964284]All fascists, isolationists, appeasers, propacondoms, agents of influence, useful idiots and brainless Russophiles need to shut the f* up and pronto.[/QUOTE]Ban free speech? You don't really believe that Xpartan.

[QUOTE=Xpartan;2964255]I'm a huge proponent of using primary sources whenever possible. Even corrupt, unreliable and doctored sources, such as one of Putin's government organizations can give a better idea of what's really going on in that black hole of a country than a report concocted by a non-expert journalist (no matter how well-intentioned they are).

The Russian Central bank maintains an English version for its reports. The latest is here: [URL]https://cbr.ru/Collection/Collection/File/50781/Infl_exp_24-10_e.pdf[/URL].

You can safely skip the intro with its cheerful 8-8. 5% inflation forecast for 2024 and scroll down to the table because the table tells it all.

You'll find that the median "Inflation observed by households" for the previous 12 months reached 15.3% in October and 14.9% for the last three months.

The next row is family expectations. They were a bit optimistic compared to the real thing (13.4% vs. 15.3%.

But no matter how you slice it, there's no way the inflation will get down to 8% or even 8. 5% by the time Putin rings in the New Year.

So we can confidently assume that Russia's actual inflation rate in 2024 will have amounted to 15% AT THE MINIMUM and probably more.[/QUOTE]Please delve deeper into the report and read the fine print. Actual inflation is the gray curve in Figure 4 and it's almost always A LOT lower than "inflation observed by households". Actual inflation YoY in October was 8.5%. From the report.

"Estimates of inflation expectations and observed inflation based on household surveys in Russia and abroad almost always exceed actual inflation rates. This difference is ascribed to certain perception patterns....People estimate inflation guided primarily by the those product prices that have increased most significantly."

This is exactly what Vin Dici did below when he confused inflation in the price of potatoes with CPI inflation. And it's one of the reasons your man lost the US presidential election in 2024. People thought inflation was higher than it really was.

As to inflation expectations, yes, the Bank of Russia's forecast is that inflation at the end of 2024 will be in the range of 8% to 8.5%. The report says the consensus forecast by analysts is 7.7% for the end of 2024 and 5.3% for the end of 2025. I cross checked with the Bloomberg consensus, mostly from analysts at major western banks, and the median estimates for inflation at the end of 2024, 2025 and 2026 are 8.2%, 6.7%, and 4.4% respectively. Given the tight monetary policy (interest rates much higher than the inflation rate), the estimates are probably reasonable.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2964403]Do you want a nuclear war?...[/QUOTE]Russia knows it is on the wrong side of history. You know you have invaded a sovereign nation in an act of unjustified, aggressive war. Russian knows it is a failing, second rate country. Russians have a deeply repressed feeling of inadequacy and weakness. That is why you are threatening nuclear war -- it derives from subconscious knowledge of weakness and failure.

[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2964493]Russia knows it is on the wrong side of history. You know you have invaded a sovereign nation in an act of unjustified, aggressive war. Russian knows it is a failing, second rate country. Russians have a deeply repressed feeling of inadequacy and weakness. That is why you are threatening nuclear war -- it derives from subconscious knowledge of weakness and failure.[/QUOTE]Lol. Xpartan thinks he's Joseph McCarthy and now you think I'm Vladimir Putin. Please get a grip on reality.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2964377]Not myself but my Korean friend--
[/QUOTE]OK Igor, thank you for a good laugh.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2964373]This war is insane. It's as if the USA and Canada were at war. [/QUOTE]First, there is nothing insane about it. US and Canada WERE at war.

Second, just because Russians and Ukrainians are Slavic peoples and speak similar languages, it doesn't make them brothers. Ukrainians have hated Russians' guts for centuries and for good reasons, too.

Maybe, just read a little, huh? If you like to comment so much about current events in far-away lands, why not spend some time to learn the context?

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2964403]Do you want a nuclear war?[/QUOTE]No. Which is why the West must give Ukraine everything they need. Because if there is one main reason for escalations, it's appeasement.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2964403]Ban free speech? You don't really believe that Xpartan.[/QUOTE]You bet your ass I do. Putin says he's at war with Nato. Why wouldn't we ban his propacondoms and agents of influence who spread his poison for money, as well as morons of all kinds who do it for free? If we're at war, why shouldn't we?

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2964403]Please delve deeper into the report and read the fine print. Actual inflation is the gray curve in Figure 4 and it's almost always A LOT lower than "inflation observed by households". Actual inflation YoY in October was 8.5%. From the report.

"Estimates of inflation expectations and observed inflation based on household surveys in Russia and abroad almost always exceed actual inflation rates. This difference is ascribed to certain perception patterns....People estimate inflation guided primarily by the those product prices that have increased most significantly."

This is exactly what Vin Dici did below when he confused inflation in the price of potatoes with CPI inflation. And it's one of the reasons your man lost the US presidential election in 2024. People thought inflation was higher than it really was.

As to inflation expectations, yes, the Bank of Russia's forecast is that inflation at the end of 2024 will be in the range of 8% to 8.5%. The report says the consensus forecast by analysts is 7.7% for the end of 2024 and 5.3% for the end of 2025. I cross checked with the Bloomberg consensus, mostly from analysts at major western banks, and the median estimates for inflation at the end of 2024, 2025 and 2026 are 8.2%, 6.7%, and 4.4% respectively. Given the tight monetary policy (interest rates much higher than the inflation rate), the estimates are probably reasonable.[/QUOTE]What on the green flat earth are you talking about?

A Putin's government organization tells you that its OFFICIAL inflation rate is 8. 5%.

Its surveys tell you that "Inflation observed by households" for the previous 12 months reached 15.3%.

What does it mean for any reasonable person who's not a propacondom, not an agent of influence and not a useful idiot? And who knows that everything coming from that mafia failed state is a lie?

It means the real inflation is much worse, and it is! Ms. Nabiulina doesn't go to markets, she doesn't buy stuff in hardware or electronic stores. You know who do? Households that, according to PUTIN'S SURVEYS just told you that inflation THEY OBSERVED has reached 15.3%.

Of course, it's not even 15.3%. Some economists believe that real-life consumer inflation is hovering around 22-25%.

[QUOTE]According to our estimates, real consumer inflation by the end of 2024 will be 22-25%, while maintaining its non-monetary nature, or the so-called phenomenon of "cost inflation", comments Dmitry Morkovkin, Associate Professor of the Department of Economic Theory, Leading Researcher at the Institute for Research of International Economic Relations of the Financial University under the Government of the Russian Federation.[/QUOTE][URL]https://riamo.ru/articles/aktsenty/realnaja-infljatsija-chto-proishodit-s-tsenami-v-rossii-na-samom-dele/?from=inf_cards[/URL]

[QUOTE=Xpartan;2964515]First, there is nothing insane about it. US and Canada WERE at war.[/QUOTE]We apparently have different definitions of insane. War between Canada and the USA, the South and the North in the USA, and the IRA and Northern Ireland were all insane.

[QUOTE=Xpartan;2964515]Second, just because Russians and Ukrainians are Slavic peoples and speak similar languages, it doesn't make them brothers. Ukrainians have hated Russians' guts for centuries and for good reasons, too.

Maybe, just read a little, huh? If you like to comment so much about current events in far-away lands, why not spend some time to learn the context?[/QUOTE]You are correct. I don't know much about Russian ancient history. However, particularly with respect to much of eastern and southern Ukraine, I don't believe what you're writing is true. At least it wasn't born out by pre-2014 elections, when the eastern part of Ukraine usually voted for pro-Russian parties.

[QUOTE=Xpartan;2964515]No. Which is why the West must give Ukraine everything they need. Because if there is one main reason for escalations, it's appeasement.

You bet your ass I do. Putin says he's at war with Nato. Why wouldn't we ban his propacondoms and agents of influence who spread his poison for money, as well as morons of all kinds who do it for free? If we're at war, why shouldn't we?[/QUOTE]Maybe 20 people read this thread. But if it were popular, could a case be made that you're a propacondom for death and strife by promoting endless war? If Ukraine, prodded by western countries, had entered into peace negotiations a year ago, it could have retained more territory and been provided stronger security guarantees than now. And fewer people would have died needlessly. It's increasingly looking like Blood Red's and Questner's predictions may come true. As to "war with NATO," what do you expect him to say after Biden gives the OK to Ukraine to start launching longer range ballistic missiles into Russian territory.

I think you're a good person by the way, just sadly mistaken and misled.

[QUOTE=Xpartan;2964515]What on the green flat earth are you talking about?

A Putin's government organization tells you that its OFFICIAL inflation rate is 8. 5%.

Its surveys tell you that "Inflation observed by households" for the previous 12 months reached 15.3%.

What does it mean for any reasonable person who's not a propacondom, not an agent of influence and not a useful idiot? And who knows that everything coming from that mafia failed state is a lie?

It means the real inflation is much worse, and it is! Ms. Nabiulina doesn't go to markets, she doesn't buy stuff in hardware or electronic stores. You know who do? Households that, according to PUTIN'S SURVEYS just told you that inflation THEY OBSERVED has reached 15.3%.

Of course, it's not even 15.3%. Some economists believe that real-life consumer inflation is hovering around 22-25%.

[URL]https://riamo.ru/articles/aktsenty/realnaja-infljatsija-chto-proishodit-s-tsenami-v-rossii-na-samom-dele/?from=inf_cards[/URL][/QUOTE]Comparing Steve 9696's and my reports in the Moscow thread, since before COVID the price of a room at Aurora and probably other strip clubs in the same group had remained the same at 6000 Rubles s. And the price of an hour with a stripper had gone up 33%, from 12,000 Rubles to 16,000 rubles. During the same time the official Russian CPI index increased 45%. Based on the price of strippers, the official numbers overstated inflation.

Yeah, you can argue, as I think one of the economists in your link does, about whether higher monthly costs to buy a house are properly reflected in the CPI Index. That's true in Russia and the USA. However I suspect the official number is reasonable. As does a second economist quoted in your link, who thinks the rate will be around 9% to 10%.

And I'm confused. Before you said you trusted the official numbers, like from the Central Bank of Russia. Now you say you don't.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2964659]We apparently have different definitions of insane. War between Canada and the USA, the South and the North in the USA, and the IRA and Northern Ireland were all insane. You are correct. I don't know much about Russian ancient history. However, particularly with respect to much of eastern and southern Ukraine, I don't believe what you're writing is true. At least it wasn't born out by pre-2014 elections, when the eastern part of Ukraine usually voted for pro-Russian parties.[/QUOTE]Let's try and be honest here. When you say "this war is insane" what you're really saying is that [B]Ukraine[/B] is insane:

- It won't stop fighting against the superior enemy forces.

- Russia is justified, at least somewhat, in its aggression because some people in the eastern parts of Ukraine would have rather been living under Russia's rule.

That's what Russophiles like you believe. That Russia always has a good reason for whatever aggression it's undertaking at any given time.

Would you say it's accurate?

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2964659]Maybe 20 people read this thread. But if it were popular, could a case be made that you're a propacondom for death and strife by promoting endless war? [/QUOTE]I don't know, but if so I'm in a good company. When this man said what he did, he stood alone in the world. With a weak military, no prospects of outside help, against the whole might of the Hitler ruthless military machine and his own colleagues in Parliament.

[QUOTE]We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender.

It is said that immediately after giving the speech, Churchill muttered to a colleague, "And we'll fight them with the butt ends of broken beer bottles because that's bloody well all we've got!"[/QUOTE][URL]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/We_shall_fight_on_the_beaches[/URL]

But maybe you're right. Maybe any country subjected to the act of aggression from a mightier military machine should just give up. Just think how many Englishmen would've survived the war and lived happily ever after under the glorious protectorate of Nazi Germany!

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2964659]If Ukraine, prodded by western countries, had entered into peace negotiations a year ago, it could have retained more territory and been provided stronger security guarantees than now. And fewer people would have died needlessly. [/QUOTE]Yep, sure, totally because Putin is nothing but benevolent. Good point!

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2964659]It's increasingly looking like Blood Red's and Questner's predictions may come true. As to "war with NATO," what do you expect him to say after Biden gives the OK to Ukraine to start launching longer range ballistic missiles into Russian territory. I think you're a good person by the way, just sadly mistaken and misled.[/QUOTE]Yes, it saddens me that you can't see these two for what they really are: shameless and unscrupulous liars. So let me return the kind words to you. You're not an idiot or heartless bastard -- you're just blind.

As to "what I expect" I don't expect that creature to say any different because I know what it is. I do, however, expect you not to buy his extravagant bullshit, but it might be asking too much, I see.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2964659]Comparing Steve 9696's and my reports in the Moscow thread, since before COVID the price of a room at Aurora and probably other strip clubs in the same group had remained the same at 6000 Rubles s. And the price of an hour with a stripper had gone up 33%, from 12,000 Rubles to 16,000 rubles. During the same time the official Russian CPI index increased 45%. Based on the price of strippers, the official numbers overstated inflation.[/QUOTE]What wonderful logic! The problem is, though, that the only Russians who keep mongering in Russia are those who don't care about the price. And don't get me wrong, there are plenty of those. Some people keep buying fancy cars, imported clothes and jewelry. The contraband never stops despite all the sanctions.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2964659]Yeah, you can argue, as I think one of the economists in your link does, about whether higher monthly costs to buy a house are properly reflected in the CPI Index. That's true in Russia and the USA. However I suspect the official number is reasonable. As does a second economist quoted in your link, who thinks the rate will be around 9% to 10%.[/QUOTE]Really?

[QUOTE]The maximum level mortgage rate at several banks has now gone over 30%, in a move that is likely to have shattering consequences for Russia's property market. Russian home buyers theoretically face loan repayments running into hundreds of thousands of pounds, after mortgage rates in some Russian banks reached an eye-watering 43%.

Recently the Russian Central Bank hiked interest rates to a historic high of 21%, as inflation continues to rise.[/QUOTE][URL]https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1972771/russian-economy-mortage-rates-sovcom-bank[/URL]

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2964659]And I'm confused. Before you said you trusted the official numbers, like from the Central Bank of Russia. Now you say you don't.[/QUOTE]I see. Let me help you out.

I never said I "trusted the official numbers". What I said (and I apologize for citing myself): "'I'm a huge proponent of using primary sources whenever possible. [B]Even corrupt, unreliable and doctored sources, such as one of Putin's government organizations[/B] can give a better idea of what's really going on in that black hole of a country than a report concocted by a non-expert journalist (no matter how well-intentioned they are). ".

[QUOTE=Xpartan;2964683]Let's try and be honest here. When you say "this war is insane" what you're really saying is that [B]Ukraine[/B] is insane:

- It won't stop fighting against the superior enemy forces.

- Russia is justified, at least somewhat, in its aggression because some people in the eastern parts of Ukraine would have rather been living under Russia's rule.

That's what Russophiles like you believe. That Russia always has a good reason for whatever aggression it's undertaking at any given time.

Would you say it's accurate?[/QUOTE]That's not at all accurate. I believe war in general is insane. Outside of the generals and defense contractors there are no winners. Only losers. And war between countries as similar as Ukraine and Russia is doubly insane. I suspect, before 2014, the people in the Ukrainian area currently under Russian control had more in common culturally with people in southwestern Russia than they did with residents of Lviv.

[QUOTE=Xpartan;2964683]I don't know, but if so I'm in a good company. When this man said what he did, he stood alone in the world. With a weak military, no prospects of outside help, against the whole might of the Hitler ruthless military machine and his own colleagues in Parliament.

[URL]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/We_shall_fight_on_the_beaches[/URL]

But maybe you're right. Maybe any country subjected to the act of aggression from a mightier military machine should just give up. Just think how many Englishmen would've survived the war and lived happily ever after under the glorious protectorate of Nazi Germany![/QUOTE]Yeah, I was watching the Darkest Hour the other night, which at its core is about that speech, and figured you might draw this analogy. Well, the analogy is faulty. Going into World War II, the UK and German economies were roughly the same size. Great Britain is an island nation, and it had the strongest navy in the world. Ukraine, even with western aid, didn't have a prayer. Russia has a much larger population, military and GDP. And it has the largest nuclear arsenal in the world.

A better analogy from World War II would be the Volkssturm, the rag tag army composed of old and young men who defended Berlin in the last days of the Reich. That's where Ukraine's headed unless there's peace in a reasonable timeframe. It just doesn't have the manpower.

[QUOTE=Xpartan;2964683]Yep, sure, totally because Putin is nothing but benevolent. Good point![/QUOTE]I wish you saw the writing on the wall. Or actually that the leaders in the countries involved saw the writing on the well, after the conflict settled into the 21st century equivalent of trench warfare.

[QUOTE=Xpartan;2964683]What wonderful logic! The problem is, though, that the only Russians who keep mongering in Russia are those who don't care about the price. And don't get me wrong, there are plenty of those. Some people keep buying fancy cars, imported clothes and jewelry. The contraband never stops despite all the sanctions.

Really?

[URL]https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1972771/russian-economy-mortage-rates-sovcom-bank[/URL]

I see. Let me help you out.

I never said I "trusted the official numbers". What I said (and I apologize for citing myself): "'I'm a huge proponent of using primary sources whenever possible. [B]Even corrupt, unreliable and doctored sources, such as one of Putin's government organizations[/B] can give a better idea of what's really going on in that black hole of a country than a report concocted by a non-expert journalist (no matter how well-intentioned they are). ".[/QUOTE]Please see the last two paragraphs in the link.

"Russian homebuyers have been helped by a generous government mortgage subsidy introduced in 2020 and extended after the imposition of Western sanctions following Putin's full-scale invasion of Ukraine. Under the scheme, mortgage rates were fixed at 8% which helped drive a property market boom. ".

If you believe inflation is indeed in the range of 8% to 8. 5%, that's sustainable. Turkey was providing loans at about that level for farm equipment when inflation was 50%.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2964905]That's not at all accurate. I believe war in general is insane. Outside of the generals and defense contractors there are no winners. Only losers. And war between countries as similar as Ukraine and Russia is doubly insane. I suspect, before 2014, the people in the Ukrainian area currently under Russian control had more in common culturally with people in southwestern Russia than they did with residents of Lviv.

Yeah, I was watching the Darkest Hour the other night, which at its core is about that speech, and figured you might draw this analogy. Well, the analogy is faulty. Going into World War II, the UK and German economies were roughly the same size. Great Britain is an island nation, and it had the strongest navy in the world. Ukraine, even with western aid, didn't have a prayer. Russia has a much larger population, military and GDP. And it has the largest nuclear arsenal in the world.

A better analogy from World War II would be the Volkssturm, the rag tag army composed of old and young men who defended Berlin in the last days of the Reich. That's where Ukraine's headed unless there's peace in a reasonable timeframe. It just doesn't have the manpower. .[/QUOTE]Right. The war is crazy, so Ukraine must surrender.

No one has ever changed anyone's opinion on the Internet, so you can keep yours. Behind your articulate sophistry lies one entrenched notion: "leave me alone". That's what you want. To be left alone, to avoid hearing or seeing about Russia's atrocities, to avoid being taxed to help a victim of aggression. What you are really saying is that might is right. Give Russia what they want and don't make Putin mad, full stop.

I will always disagree. Also full stop.

Then there is your stubborn refusal to realize that Russia's economy is doomed, something that even Russian economists are saying today and that was unheard of a year ago.

Well, faith is a powerful thing. What else to add?

Only that the government-subsidized 8% mortgage rate is over. It was never a good deal anyway--just a scam that was helping a group of oligarch developers sell overpriced real estate.

In any case, the program was cancelled on July 1.

Or maybe it's just me slinging dirt at mother Russia.

[QUOTE=Xpartan;2964998]Right. The war is crazy, so Ukraine must surrender.

No one has ever changed anyone's opinion on the Internet, so you can keep yours. Behind your articulate sophistry lies one entrenched notion: "leave me alone". That's what you want. To be left alone, to avoid hearing or seeing about Russia's atrocities, to avoid being taxed to help a victim of aggression. What you are really saying is that might is right. Give Russia what they want and don't make Putin mad, full stop.

I will always disagree. Also full stop.

Then there is your stubborn refusal to realize that Russia's economy is doomed, something that even Russian economists are saying today and that was unheard of a year ago.

Well, faith is a powerful thing. What else to add?

Only that the government-subsidized 8% mortgage rate is over. It was never a good deal anyway--just a scam that was helping a group of oligarch developers sell overpriced real estate.

In any case, the program was cancelled on July 1.

Or maybe it's just me slinging dirt at mother Russia.[/QUOTE]No, I simply want the two sides to start talking and stop fighting.

Sorry, I thought your article stopped at "mortgage rates were fixed at 8% which helped drive a property market boom. " I see now that it continues after an advertisement and says "the government ended the subsidies. " The effect on inflation would depend in part on how many mortgages were floating rate vs. Fixed rate, and the level of rates for the fixed mortgages. The fact that the western analysts are predicting inflation will remain around the current level for the rest of the year and go down in subsequent years would indicate this isn't something they're expecting to drive out-of-control price increases. It will dampen the housing market.

The analyst consensus for 2025 is for Russian unemployment of 2.8%, a fiscal budget deficit of 1.2%, a current account balance of 2.8%, and GDP growth of 1.5%. Those are all better than the consensus for the EU, and better except for GDP versus the USA. And yes, forecasted CPI inflation for Russia, 6.9%, is higher than for the EU or USA. That doesn't sound like a doomed economy.

Nice to see reality sinking in, just like I said it would. I wonder what the Pro Ukrainian robots in this thread are going to say now. But Zelensky is still delusional or full of shit, or both. The dumbass thinks Russia will accept anything other than NEUTRALITY for Ukraine. And he thinks Ukraine can get the 4 new territories plus Crimea back through diplomatic means. LOL. What a fucking clown.

[URL]https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/12/2/major-compromise-how-ukraines-zelenskyy-shifted-goals-to-end-russia-war[/URL]

In an interview with Sky News chief correspondent Stuart Ramsay, published on November 29, Zelenskyy said the "hot phase" of the war could end if NATO offered security guarantees for the part of Ukraine currently under Kyiv's control.

He said the return of land occupied by Russia at the moment could be diplomatically negotiated later. The Ukrainian leader reiterated this stance in an interview published by the Japanese news agency Kyodo News on Monday.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2965144]...But Zelensky is still delusional or full of shit, or both. The dumbass thinks Russia will accept anything other than NEUTRALITY for Ukraine. And he thinks Ukraine can get the 4 new territories plus Crimea back through diplomatic means. LOL. What a fucking clown...[/QUOTE]To state the obvious, it is misdirection. Zelensky is appearing to be willing to negotiate, knowing that this "position", while appearing reasonable to Trump and the west, is unacceptable to Putin. His game is to temporize while waiting for the death of Putin or collapse of the Russian state.

[B]Russian forces have suffered over 2,000 casualties in a single day for the first time, according to the Ukrainian military.[/B]

[QUOTE]On Friday, Kyiv's general staff reported that 2,030 Russian troops had been lost over the past 24 hours. It did not specify whether these were killed, captured or missing.

The figure surpassed the previous record of 1,950 casualties, which Ukraine said Russia suffered on Nov 12.[/QUOTE][URL]https://news.yahoo.com/news/russia-loses-over-2-000-142033806.html[/URL]

In other news, some Russians are slowly waking up by refusing to fulfill their lofty destiny as cannon fodder.

[B]Russian Army Division Hit by Desertions of 'Whole Regiment': Report[/B]

[QUOTE]An "entire regiment" of more than 1,000 soldiers left the 20th Guards Motor Rifle Division of the Russian Armed Forces stationed in Volgograd amid rising tensions in the Russia-Ukraine war, according to the Russian investigative outlet iStories.

Among those who deserted the division, also referred to as "sochniks," which translates to "those who left their unit without permission," were 26 junior officers, a major, and two lieutenant colonels. Newsweek reached out to the Ministry of Defense for the Russian Federation for comment via email.[/QUOTE][URL]https://www.newsweek.com/russian-army-division-hit-desertions-whole-regiment-report-1988712[/URL]

Ukrainians flee from Kiev regime to regions reunited with Russia — politician.

The process, which can today be confidently called the reunification of the Ukrainian people with Russia, began after the 2014 coup, Viktor Medvedchuk stressed.

MOSCOW, November 29. Ukrainian citizens are fleeing in large numbers from the Kiev regime to regions that have already reunited with Russia, as they see this country as a safe haven, Viktor Medvedchuk, leader of the Other Ukraine movement and former head of the Opposition Platform. For Life party banned in Ukraine, said.

Zelensky and his team are terrified. Citizens of Ukraine are rushing in large numbers to the territories that became part of Russia. Statements by government officials about the mass flight from Ukraine essentially show that Zelensky's regime fails to manage the country. Ukrainian citizens are fleeing to become citizens of Russia, Medvedchuk wrote in his article, published on the movement's website.

Zelensky's gang plundered and ruined the country, and now more and more Ukrainians are choosing Russia as a place to live, the politician said, noting that many Ukrainian citizens from Europe are also moving to Russia after facing language barriers and difficulties in finding employment.

The process, which can today be confidently called the reunification of the Ukrainian people with Russia, began after the 2014 coup, Medvedchuk stressed. In 2014, the residents of Crimea and Sevastopol, a population of 2. 5 million people, exercised their right to self-determination. In 2022, Ukrainian citizens of the Donetsk People's Republic, Lugansk People's Republic, and residents of the Kherson and Zaporozhye regions exercised their right to self-determination. Today, these are 6. 1 million people. Or, to be more precise, over 7. 1 million citizens of Ukraine, if we take into account all those who worked and studied in Russia before the start of the special military operation, as well as those who moved to Russia in 2022. Thus, a total of 15.7 million Ukrainians have chosen Russia, Medvedchuk calculated.

Ukrainians have begun viewing Russia as a country where they can stay safe from the havoc that current authorities have created in Ukraine, the politician said. These are not hundreds of thousands, but millions of people who are leaving for regions that became part of Russia. This process is only accelerating, becoming a steady-state process of the Ukrainian people's reunification with Russia, Medvedchuk said.

[QUOTE=Questner;2963393]Below is the quote from the Ukrainian POV on the events of 2004:

On November 22nd a round date passed by without much notice - 20 years since the beginning of the first ("orange") Maidan in 2004.

Meanwhile, this event played a huge role in the history of Ukraine. In particular, it became one of the steps leading to the current bloody war....[/QUOTE]Very interesting article Questner, thanks for posting it. Yanukovych was playing a delicate balancing game, trying initially to extract the benefits of EU membership and western aid at the same time he wanted cheap gas from Russia, and it backfired on him, and ultimately on Ukraine.

I would have liked to have seen Hillary Clinton mentioned in the piece, along with Joe Biden. Her interference in the Russian election in 2012 did as much as anything to create the mess we're in now. Also the writer could have developed the theme around natural gas further. Because Ukraine wasn't paying for gas and wanted to charge high pipeline tariffs for transport to Europe, Russia ended up building the Nord Stream and Turkish Stream pipelines to be able to bypass Ukraine. I suspect if that had never happened, neither would the 2022 war.

[QUOTE=Xpartan;2963432]What a pointless, longwinded bunch of crap![/QUOTE]The article starts slow but by the time you get to the end is fascinating. Definitely worth a read. And it's not, as you probably thought, necessarily pro-Russian.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2965144]Nice to see reality sinking in, just like I said it would. I wonder what the Pro Ukrainian robots in this thread are going to say now. But Zelensky is still delusional or full of shit, or both. The dumbass thinks Russia will accept anything other than NEUTRALITY for Ukraine. And he thinks Ukraine can get the 4 new territories plus Crimea back through diplomatic means. LOL. What a fucking clown.

[URL]https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/12/2/major-compromise-how-ukraines-zelenskyy-shifted-goals-to-end-russia-war[/URL]

In an interview with Sky News chief correspondent Stuart Ramsay, published on November 29, Zelenskyy said the "hot phase" of the war could end if NATO offered security guarantees for the part of Ukraine currently under Kyiv's control.

He said the return of land occupied by Russia at the moment could be diplomatically negotiated later. The Ukrainian leader reiterated this stance in an interview published by the Japanese news agency Kyodo News on Monday.[/QUOTE]There's an interesting Wall Street Journal Article out today on this subject. While the WSJ editorial page is anti-Russian and pro-Republican Party, their news reporting is next to none in the USA, if you're looking for an unbiased source. And this is a news piece. One interesting takeaway is that now a majority of Ukrainians in the unoccupied part of the country support negotiating to end the war [B]as soon as possible[/B] according to a Gallup poll. And you can be guaran-damn-teed that most people in the occupied area want an end too, soon.

[B]Zelensky Signals He's Open to Negotiating a Peace Deal[/B]

[URL]https://www.wsj.com/world/ukraine-zelensky-russia-war-comments-nato-1b40c55d?mod=lead_feature_below_a_pos2[/URL]

Here are some excerpts.

Zelensky is suggesting that he could accept a cease-fire that effectively would leave occupied territory in Moscow's hands if the rest of Ukraine were given protection by the North Atlantic Treaty Organization. Two significant hurdles stand in the way of this idea, however: Ukraine's chances of joining the military alliance in the near term remain slim, and there is little indication that Russian President Vladimir Putin wants to negotiate.

In recent months, Russian forces have advanced more quickly in eastern Ukraine than at any point since the early days of the war. Moscow has also moved its economy onto war footing and recently approved the largest defense budget in Russia's history, giving Putin confidence that he can continue to grab more Ukrainian territory by force.

In a news conference on Sunday, Zelensky said Ukraine would only be willing to enter such negotiations from a position of strength, which would require further steps toward NATO and new provisions of Western long-distance and other weapons.

"If we'll have a frozen conflict without any strong position for Ukraine, so Putin will come in two, three or five years," Zelensky said. "he will come back and destroy us totally. Or try to destroy us. ".

Still, the Ukrainian leader's openness to ceding territory, even temporarily, is a significant concession. Speaking to Sky News on Friday, Zelensky said NATO membership would need to be offered to unoccupied parts of Ukraine for Kyiv to consider ending what he called the "hot phase of the war. " While Ukraine would continue to claim the whole of its territory, Zelensky suggested that Kyiv would seek to "get them back in a diplomatic way. ".

He made a similar case in an interview with Kyodo News, a Japanese outlet, that was published on Monday.

"Our army lacks the strength to do that," Zelensky said of ousting the Russians from occupied territory. "We do have to find diplomatic solutions. ".

Zelensky's rhetorical shift reflects a growing weariness among Ukrainians, who are expressing desire for an end to the conflict. Russian strikes have left much of the country without consistent electricity this winter, while manpower shortages mean that more men who don't want to fight are being forcibly conscripted.

[B]A Gallup poll published last month found that 52% of Ukrainians in unoccupied parts of the country support negotiating an end to the war as soon as possible, up from 27% last year; 38% supported continuing to fight until Ukraine wins, down from 63% last year.

Western officials have been raising some kind of security-for-territory arrangement for more than 18 months now, as the Russian invasion of 2022 has ground into a bloody war of attrition. Trumps election has given new urgency to negotiation efforts, as Western allies arent certain whether as president he will continue sending military aid to Ukraine, or how much.[/B]

Major capitals, including Washington and Berlin, remain reluctant to move Ukraine closer to NATO.

Zelensky has been pushing for an invitation to join the alliance, though he acknowledges that accession to NATO could only come after the war ends. For now, Ukrainian and European officials say, Kyiv is pushing for a recommendation from NATO foreign ministers that alliance leaders invite Ukraine to join.

Even that looks uncertain, however. Without NATO membership, Ukraine and its closest allies say Kyiv will have no real security guarantees and will face capitulation in any negotiations with Russia. Officials in Washington, Berlin and elsewhere worry that moving Ukraine closer to the alliance could sharpen the West's confrontation with Moscow.

"I've been quite clear about this. The strongest security guarantee is NATO membership," Kaja Kallas, the EU's new foreign-policy chief said during a visit to Kyiv on Sunday. She said it was for Ukraine "to say when is this point to sit down around the negotiating table. ".

Joining her in Kyiv, Antnio Costa, the new European Council president, said that the bloc had supported Ukraine from the first day of the war and "will stand for Ukraine as long as necessary. ".

Yet behind the scenes, European officials are trying to position themselves for Trump's plans. People involved in the weekend's Kyiv talks said that while they saw some nervousness in the Zelensky team, the Ukrainians appear to be dealing with the need to adjust to the Trump team's focus on ending the war.

Based on conversations so far, and the president-elect's foreign-policy picks, there is cautious optimismif not confidencein Brussels and Kyiv that the Trump administration would push to wrestle real concessions from the Kremlin if Putin engages in talks.

Still, many Western officials remain deeply skeptical that the Kremlin will sit down for negotiations while Russia is making gains on the battlefield.

Russian officials remain confident that the tide has turned in their favor. Last month, Sergei Shoigu, the secretary of Russia's Security Council, told a Russian state news agency that the West should recognize that Russia is winning the war, and negotiate. Russian officials have also said that Ukraine would need to give up hopes of joining NATO as part of any peace settlement.

Some Ukrainian officials acknowledge that an alternative to relying on NATO could be to spell out to allies the military support they would need in coming years to be able to deter Russia. But Zelensky has complained publicly that the West's assistance has fallen short of the promises to equip his full army. And the costs involved might be too high for Western governments to stomach politically, especially if Trump follows through on threats to cut USA Aid to Ukraine.

One Ukrainian official said that Kyiv would need somewhere around 120 billion euros, equivalent to $126 billion, in military aid next year alone to match the war outlays of Russia's spiraling military spending.

View from Ukraine in November 2023.

From Maidan to War. How Events That Changed Ukraine and the World Began in Kyiv 10 Years Ago.

On November 21,2013, journalist Mustafa Nayem wrote his famous post on Facebook: "Let's meet at 10:30 pm under the Independence Monument. Dress warmly, bring tea, coffee, a good mood and friends. ".

The post triggered the events that would later be called Euromaidan. The reason for the protests was President Yanukovych's refusal to negotiate the signing of the Association Agreement with the EU.

The subsequent events from the end of 2013 to the present day are well known. The heavenly hundred who died on Maidan, thousands who died in the war in Donbass and tens, and perhaps even hundreds of thousands, who died after February 24,2022.

But these 10 years have changed not only Ukraine.

The world of 2013 was very different from the world of today. Conflicts were still smoldering in some places (Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Libya, Yemen), there were contradictions between Russia and the West, between the West and China, but at that time it was considered madness to even discuss the possibility that they could lead to a major war. On the contrary, economic and other ties between Russia and the EU were growing stronger, and statements about the creation of a "united Europe from Lisbon to Kamchatka" in the foreseeable future were constantly being made. And the whole world was becoming more and more global and interconnected. And it seemed that, overcoming disagreements, humanity was moving towards unity and an era of prosperity based on technological progress and respect for different cultures.

Now the topic of a new world war and a direct clash of the world's leading powers, even to the point of a nuclear apocalypse, is being discussed everywhere.

And one of the key points for the start of the process was the post of Mustafa Nayem. In this regard, in its historical significance, it stands on a par with the assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand in Sarajevo in 1914 by the Serbian high school student Gavrilo Princip, which gave rise to the First World War, the collapse of European empires and the creation of a new reality into which humanity was plunged in the 20th century.

Naturally, just like Princip's shot in 1914, Nayem's post in 2013 was only a pretext, not the real cause of the subsequent turbulent events.

They were determined by much more global factors stemming from the contradictions of world powers. Specifically, in 2013, it was Russia's desire to involve Ukraine in its integration projects in the post-Soviet space (the Customs Union), which the West was trying hard to prevent by offering Kyiv an Association Agreement with the EU. This was superimposed on domestic political contradictions in Ukraine, where a broad coalition of forces emerged that wanted to remove Yanukovych from power, or at least limit his power.

And, just like Princip in 1914 (or more precisely, the organization "Mlada Bosna", of which he was a member and which organized the assassination attempt on the Archduke), Nayem, almost 100 years later, hardly wanted such radical changes in the world that followed. Obviously, more local goals were pursued.

However, it was the actions of Princip and Nayem that, by the will of fate, became a turning point for the history of the 20th and, perhaps, the 21st centuries, respectively.

At the same time, after 2013, there were many moments when it seemed that everything was about to end, make peace and stop. But each time, suddenly, some kind of "explosion" occurred, which moved the confrontation to a new level.

The November 2013 protests in Kiev were relatively few in number, and after Yanukovych refused to sign the Association Agreement in Vilnius, they had a completely understandable prospect of dying out. But for some reason, the president's entourage decided to disperse the remnants of the Maidan under the pretext of erecting a Christmas tree. The attempt led to clashes, footage of the dispersal of the protesters aroused the anger of a significant part of society, and within a day hundreds of thousands of people had already taken to the streets in Kiev.

On December 1, protesters attempted to storm the building of the Presidential Administration on Bankova. The attack was repelled by the Berkut and internal troops, and the entire Ukraine watched the footage of the carnage, radically divided in their sympathies – who was on whose side.

By mid-January 2014, the Maidan began to die down again. But then the Party of Regions adopted the so-called "dictatorial laws," which caused a new escalation. A few days later, part of the protesters, calling themselves the "Right Sector," attacked the Berkut and internal troops cordons on Grushevsky Street. A violent confrontation began, during which the first fatalities appeared on the Maidan side. This radicalized the situation, giving new impetus to the protests. As did the appearance in Kiev of the "titushki" bandits, who were called in by the authorities to help in the fight against the Maidan.

By mid-February, the standoff between the government and Maidan had reached a dead end and the first compromise agreements were reached – the protesters left the Kyiv City Administration building, and government units unblocked the streets. But already on February 18, the Maidan self-defense forces attempted to break through to the Rada building, and clashes began that escalated into a massive massacre.

By the morning of February 20, it seemed that the parties were once again close to a compromise. The authorities and the Maidan leaders agreed on a truce, and a visit to Kyiv by the foreign ministers of Poland, Germany, and France, as well as a special representative of the Russian president, was expected to conclude an agreement to end the confrontation. But early in the morning of February 20, a group of Maidan activists opened fire on law enforcement officers on the Maidan from the Conservatory building (this fact was established by the investigation during the presidency of Petro Poroshenko). A new massacre began, in which dozens of people died.

Agreements on resolving the crisis with the participation of foreign mediators were concluded on February 21 (they provided for the return of the 2004 Constitution with limited powers of the president, as well as the election of the head of state by the end of 2014), but they were of little interest to anyone. A lot of blood had been spilled. Maidan demanded not to compromise with the authorities.

On February 21, Yanukovych left Kyiv for Kharkov and by the morning of February 22, he had effectively lost power. Mezhyhirya was captured by the Maidan supporters, who were able to create their majority in the Rada, appointing Turchynov as speaker. Almost the entire Party of Regions and the elites of the southeast made it clear that they were not ready for further confrontation (as demonstrated by the congress in Kharkov on February 22, to which Yanukovych was not allowed). This opened the way to compromises and agreements on a controlled transfer of power. However, on February 22, the Rada, at the suggestion of Turchynov, suddenly decided to remove Yanukovych from power for a reason not provided for by the Constitution. With the wording "self-removal from the performance of duties. " This is what gave Russia and the opponents of the Maidan grounds to qualify the incident as a coup d'etat. And the actual support for the removal of Yanukovych by the West was assessed by Putin as a direct "rip-off" and a violation of the agreements concluded on February 21, which he subsequently spoke about on numerous occasions.

However, even this situation did not predetermine a major conflict. A significant part of the Maidan leaders, including future President Poroshenko, were not initially anti-Russian. On the contrary, they tried to negotiate with Moscow, as they saw good relations with Russia as a guarantee of their good earnings. Everyone remembers that Poroshenko closed his factory in Lipetsk only in 2017. Also well known is the recording of his sweet conversation with Putin in 2015 about "shaking hands and hugging". And all this after the war in Donbass and the annexation of Crimea. One can only imagine how deep the interaction between Poroshenko and Moscow would have been if there had been no war or annexation. The question of Ukraine joining NATO would definitely not have arisen (why would NATO be needed if several more confectionery factories could have been opened in Russia). And Poroshenko and his security forces would have been able to neutralize the radical Maidan activists and nationalists very quickly if not for the war. The fate of Sasha Bely, killed by police special forces, is known to everyone.

But then Putin made his move, giving the order to annex Crimea. Why did he do it? Putin himself later said that he was thus preventing "the deployment of a NATO base in Crimea", although there were no prerequisites for this at the time. The version is widespread that he was driven by psychological and political technological motives: he wanted to somehow respond as harshly as possible to what he considered "humiliation" on the part of Maidan and "a scam by the West", in order to show the whole world that he is a "strong ruler" and does not forgive such things. There are other explanations. But one way or another, the annexation became a turning point in relations between the two countries, marking the beginning of a direct conflict.

However, many people thought that Crimea would be the end of it. Pro-Russian protests in the southeast had almost died down by the end of March. Western sanctions were quite soft, and Moscow was sending signals that "no one would go further than Crimea. " But then, suddenly, in April, the "DPR" and "LPR" were proclaimed, and soon Girkin-Strelkov's detachment appeared in Slavyansk, which completely turned the situation upside down. The Ukrainian authorities declared the ATO, and military actions began. But the first months were quite limited. Moscow, unlike Crimea, did not openly introduce its troops. Moreover, Russian media wrote that the activity of Girkin and Borodai, who was appointed "prime minister of the DPR," was allegedly the initiative of individual "Kremlin towers" and the oligarch Malofeev's group, and not the policy of the Russian authorities, who did not want to get involved in a major war, being unprepared for it or for the Western sanctions that could follow. Putin then called on the "LDNR" not to hold a "referendum" in May. Naturally, it was hard to believe that the Kremlin was not involved in the events in Donbas. The intensity of the confrontation gradually increased. People were dying in the fighting. The tragedy in Odessa, where dozens of people were killed during the confrontation, also greatly affected the aggravation of the situation. The overwhelming majority of them were anti-Maidan supporters who died in the Trade Union House. But there was still room for negotiations. In Ukraine, meanwhile, Poroshenko became president, he met with Putin as part of the "Normandy Four", Russian Ambassador Zurabov (a good friend of Poroshenko) returned to Kiev and Poroshenko's special representative Leonid Kuchma went to Donetsk for negotiations with the "LDNR". A ceasefire was declared in Donbas. And by the end of June, it seemed to many that everything was moving towards concluding some kind of agreement on ending the war and autonomy for Donbas. Something like the later signed "Minsk agreements", which would have been much easier to implement in June 2014 than later.

But on June 30, Poroshenko gave the order to end the ceasefire and begin an offensive by Ukrainian troops. The Ukrainian Armed Forces had accumulated significant reserves, the "LDNR" units were disorganized and poorly armed, and, most importantly, Bankova was confident that Russia would not directly intervene in the war. The calculation turned out to be incorrect. After the successes of the Ukrainian Armed Forces in July, the war followed a negative scenario for Ukraine. Russia, although not officially advertising it, intervened, sending units of its regular troops to the war. As a result, the Izvarinsky and Ilovaisk cauldrons occurred. And in September 2014, the first Minsk agreements were concluded. They provided for a ceasefire and a special status within Ukraine for the territories controlled by the "LDNR" at that time. However, these agreements were not implemented. The fighting actually continued, and in January-February a new escalation began, which ended with a new ceasefire and the second Minsk agreements. After this, although the ceasefire was violated periodically, there were no more military actions on the scale of the summer of 2014 or the winter of 2015 until February 2022.

After the second Minsk agreements, there was a feeling that the situation was moving towards a settlement. The dialogue within the Normandy Four was actively continuing. Russia demonstrated its readiness to return control over the "LDNR" to Ukraine if these areas were granted a special status. The Ukrainian authorities were not eager to grant a special status. However, pressure was exerted by Europe (which was interested in normalizing relations with the Russian Federation, based on its economic interests), and the United States (President Obama needed a successful "peace" case before leaving office). But at the same time, both in Russia and in the West and, naturally, in Ukraine, there were forces that were categorically against any compromises and actively torpedoed the Minsk agreements.

The results of their work were seen by everyone very soon. On August 31,2015, during the vote for amendments to the Constitution on the special status of Donbass (one of the conditions of the Minsk agreements), nationalists threw a grenade at the National Guard in front of the Rada building, killing several people. These events were then repeatedly used as an argument not to implement the political part of the Minsk agreements, so as not to provoke radical protests. In 2016, it became clear that there were not 300 votes in the Rada for adopting amendments to the Constitution. In 2017, activists from the Ukrainian side organized a blockade of railways in Donbass, which severed Ukraine's economic ties with the uncontrolled territories. After which the "LDNR" took away their enterprises from Ukrainian owners.

Finally, Donald Trump became the US president, whom his opponents declared a "Russian spy", which is why he could not even approach any negotiations with the Russian Federation. In 2017, it became clear that the Minsk agreements would most likely not be implemented. And the conflict is moving into a frozen stage.

True, hope for a settlement arose after Volodymyr Zelensky came to power, making achieving peace in Donbas the main point of his election program. He established contact with Putin, negotiations were held in Paris, but, in the end, the Ukrainian authorities again refused to grant Donbas a special status and amend the Constitution on this matter. Relations with Moscow began to deteriorate rapidly. A confrontation between the authorities and the Opposition Platform. For Life party began within the country, the National Security and Defense Council imposed sanctions against "Medvedchuk's channels."

However, this, as many thought, did not look like a path to war. On the contrary, despite the frozen conflict, Russia's ties with Europe were gradually being restored, Nord Stream 2 was being built, and sanctions were being circumvented. The situation on foreign markets was very good for Russia, and trade with both the EU and China was growing. And the growing contradictions between the US and China increased the importance of relations with Russia for both sides, which gave Moscow the opportunity to play its own game, increasing its influence in the world.

And by the end of 2021, it seemed that Russia was in such an excellent geopolitical and economic position that if its rulers were thinking about anything, it was not about war, which, as we know, is not started when life is good. The Russian Federation could develop the economy, improve the standard and quality of life of the population. All the conditions for this were there. Why fight if no one is attacking you? Moreover, civil strife began within Ukraine, Zelensky's rating was falling, and there was no talk of the country joining NATO. As well as about the "offensive of the Armed Forces of Ukraine in Donbass" (the majority of Ukrainians, according to all opinion polls, were against a military solution to the issue). And Russia did not even have to do anything. Just watch the process, which was already leading to Zelensky's fall. Therefore, when, since November 2021, articles began to regularly appear in the Western press about Moscow preparing a full-scale invasion of Ukraine, few believed them. It looked so absurd and crazy from the point of view of not only the interests of the Russian Federation, but also of Putin personally (no matter what angle you look at them from).

The maximum that was expected was recognition of the "LDNR" with subsequent accession to the Russian Federation.

But then came February 24,2022, which came as a shock to many. In short, the introduction of sanctions by the National Security and Defense Council against Medvedchuk and his TV channels in early 2021 was perceived by the Kremlin as a signal from Kiev and the West that the coming to power of forces loyal to Moscow through elections was impossible. Therefore, the bet was made on the path of force. The original plan did not provide for the annexation of Ukrainian territory (at least not immediately). It consisted of establishing a pro-Russian government in Kiev and a complete change in the country's geopolitical course. Considering that Putin intended to accomplish these tasks with relatively small forces. An army of 150-180 thousand soldiers, he initially counted on the fact that Ukraine would not put up serious resistance. There is no exact answer as to why he thought so. Either he convinced himself of this, or he was given false information (according to one conspiracy theory, Putin was pushed to attack Ukraine by part of his entourage, hoping, against the backdrop of the difficult situation at the front, to organize the removal of the Russian president from power, repeating February 1917). In any case, the fact that the calculation turned out to be false became clear already in early March, when it became clear that the Ukrainian Armed Forces had no intention of surrendering, and Zelensky had not fled from Kyiv.

Apparently, Putin already understood then what a grand trap he had fallen into. And so he tried to escape from it as quickly as possible. During March, negotiations were held, as a result of which Moscow agreed to withdraw troops to the line of February 24,2022 in exchange for Ukraine's neutral status Putin was also willing to return the entire Donbas to Ukraine with a special status.

At the end of March, after the meeting in Istanbul, it seemed that everything was moving towards concluding a peace agreement. But already in April the situation changed – the Ukrainian government refused to conclude agreements, taking a course towards "war until reaching the 1991 borders". In Kyiv, they stated that the position had changed after Bucha. The media wrote that Western allies, and, first and foremost, Boris Johnson, convinced Ukraine to refuse to conclude peace on compromise terms.

Russia was forced to get involved in a long war, for which it was not initially prepared, and therefore improvised on the fly. It announced the annexation of captured territories, then, after a series of defeats, retreated some of them, carried out mobilization, miraculously avoided the collapse of statehood during the Prigozhin mutiny, increased weapons production, repelled the Ukrainian offensive of 2023, and itself went on the offensive in certain areas. That is, despite the forecasts, it was able to hold on to the captured territories and did not plunge into turmoil.

All this has already given rise to talk that the war is coming to an end, since neither side has achieved a quick and decisive victory. They talk about "Western fatigue," about the imminent "freezing of the conflict," about negotiations, a truce, a "Korean scenario," and so on, that are just around the corner.

But, as we see, this has happened repeatedly over the last 10 years. And each time something happened that shattered the hopes that "this nightmare is about to end and everything will calm down" - in February 2014, and in June 2014, and in February 2022, and in March-April 2022.

It's as if there is some invisible director who repeats over and over again: "we must continue."

Or maybe there is no director. There is simply a funnel of hatred, into which more and more people are drawn after the blood has been spilled, multiplying deaths and suffering, there is a "logic of war" for all parties involved ("in war you don't negotiate with the enemy, you destroy him" multiplied by the personal ambitions and complexes of political leaders, as well as the global struggle for influence and control over resources, one of the hottest spots of which has been Ukraine since the end of 2013.

And the main question is how to break out of the circle of war, blood and tears. But if there is even one chance, it must be used immediately. And then, having drawn conclusions from the tragic ten-year path, not allow the war to repeat itself.

Notes:

[URL]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mustafa_Nayyem[/URL]

[URL]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titushky[/URL]

[URL]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brigada[/URL] (Sasha Bely).

[URL]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igor_Girkin[/URL]

[URL]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Borodai[/URL]

[URL]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konstantin_Malofeev[/URL]

[URL]https://en.wikipedia.org/[/URL] see Opposition Platform — For Life.

[URL]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Security_and_Defense_Council_of_Ukraine[/URL]

ATO – Anti-Terrorist Operation.

DPR – Donetsk People's Republic.

LNPR – Lugansk People's Republic.

[QUOTE=Questner;2965450]View from Ukraine in November 2023...

At the end of March (2022), after the meeting in Istanbul, it seemed that everything was moving towards concluding a peace agreement. But already in April the situation changed the Ukrainian government refused to conclude agreements, taking a course towards "war until reaching the 1991 borders". In Kyiv, they stated that the position had changed after Bucha.[b] The media wrote that Western allies, and, first and foremost, Boris Johnson, convinced Ukraine to refuse to conclude peace on compromise terms.[/b]

Russia was forced to get involved in a long war, for which it was not initially prepared, and therefore improvised on the fly.....

But, as we see, this has happened repeatedly over the last 10 years. And each time something happened that shattered the hopes that "this nightmare is about to end and everything will calm down" - in February 2014, and in June 2014, and in February 2022, and in March-April 2022.

[b]It's as if there is some invisible director who repeats over and over again: "we must continue."

Or maybe there is no director. There is simply a funnel of hatred, into which more and more people are drawn after the blood has been spilled, multiplying deaths and suffering, there is a "logic of war" for all parties involved ("in war you don't negotiate with the enemy, you destroy him" multiplied by the personal ambitions and complexes of political leaders, as well as the global struggle for influence and control over resources, one of the hottest spots of which has been Ukraine since the end of 2013.

And the main question is how to break out of the circle of war, blood and tears. But if there is even one chance, it must be used immediately. And then, having drawn conclusions from the tragic ten-year path, not allow the war to repeat itself.[/b]...

[/QUOTE]Another fascinating read, thanks Questner. Perhaps you could say this was a comedy of errors, but the death and destruction wrought by the war are anything but comedic. The analogy between Princip and Nayem was interesting. Yes, assassinating the Archduke Ferdinand and igniting the anti-Yanukovych demonstrations ultimately led to terrible outcomes.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2965597]Another fascinating read, thanks Questner. Perhaps you could say this was a comedy of errors, but the death and destruction wrought by the war are anything but comedic. The analogy between Princip and Nayem was interesting. Yes, assassinating the Archduke Ferdinand and igniting the anti-Yanukovych demonstrations ultimately led to terrible outcomes.[/QUOTE]The darkest tragedy it is. Of course it was the point of view. There are of course other stubborn facts. Yanukovich was extracted from Ukraine by Russian special ops as he ran for dear life. Putin is actually a godfather to Medvedchuk's daughter, and to imprison him, an elected politician was a mortal insult. The operation in Crimea was very well planned and executed and was an absolute must to avoid the looming bloodbath there and movement of NATO from Ochakov to the peninsula. And of course, the SMO was not a trap.

Like I said in another thread, hypocrites are the worst.

Propacondoms providing the murderous Putin regime with the informational fog cover are worse than traditional war criminals like their generals, politicians and frontline sadists and murderers who rape, torture and kill civilians and prisoners of war. Their feigning empathy makes them more despicable than actual killers.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2965373]There's an interesting Wall Street Journal Article out today on this subject.
[B]Zelensky Signals He's Open to Negotiating a Peace Deal[/B]
[/QUOTE]Reality sinking in slowly but surely, just like I said it would.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2965373]

[URL]https://www.wsj.com/world/ukraine-zelensky-russia-war-comments-nato-1b40c55d?mod=lead_feature_below_a_pos2[/URL]

Here are some excerpts.

Zelensky is suggesting that he could accept a cease-fire that effectively would leave occupied territory in Moscow's hands if the rest of Ukraine were given protection by the North Atlantic Treaty Organization. Two significant hurdles stand in the way of this idea, however: Ukraine's chances of joining the military alliance in the near term remain slim, and there is little indication that Russian President Vladimir Putin wants to negotiate.[/QUOTE]But it looks like the dumbass is still delusional. Ukraine will NEVER EVER join NATO. Write this down. Nothing short of complete NEUTRALITY will be acceptable to Russia. Have people forgotten one of the main if not the main reason for the SMO?

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2965373]

In a news conference on Sunday, Zelensky said Ukraine would only be willing to enter such negotiations from a position of strength, which would require further steps toward NATO and new provisions of Western long-distance and other weapons.

"If we'll have a frozen conflict without any strong position for Ukraine, so Putin will come in two, three or five years," Zelensky said. "he will come back and destroy us totally. Or try to destroy us. ".

Still, the Ukrainian leader's openness to ceding territory, even temporarily, is a significant concession. Speaking to Sky News on Friday, Zelensky said NATO membership would need to be offered to unoccupied parts of Ukraine for Kyiv to consider ending what he called the "hot phase of the war. " While Ukraine would continue to claim the whole of its territory, Zelensky suggested that Kyiv would seek to "get them back in a diplomatic way. ".[/QUOTE]Get back the territory in a DIPLOMATIC way? Delusional and on drugs, or he is just saying that rubbish for domestic consumption.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2966114]Reality sinking in slowly but surely, just like I said it would.

But it looks like the dumbass is still delusional. Ukraine will NEVER EVER join NATO. Write this down. Nothing short of complete NEUTRALITY will be acceptable to Russia. Have people forgotten one of the main if not the main reason for the SMO?

Get back the territory in a DIPLOMATIC way? Delusional and on drugs, or he is just saying that rubbish for domestic consumption.[/QUOTE]My advice: sell your rubles.

The position of the RF was well communicated on December 5, 2024 in Tucker Carlson's interview with the Minister of Foreign Affairs of the Russian Federation Mr. Sergey Lavrov. It has been uploaded to Tucker's channel on X. I recommend watching the full interview which was conducted in English.

MOSCOW, December 6. / TASS /. Russia does not believe that the settlement of the Ukrainian crisis is in the hands of Moscow and Washington alone, Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov said in an interview with American journalist Tucker Carlson.

He noted that a peaceful settlement of the conflict in Ukraine is possible only if Kiev abandons its plans to join NATO, closes Western military bases in the country and cancels exercises involving foreign troops. The West will have to take into account the realities on the ground.

The top diplomat clarified that Russia will judge Donald Trump's administration by concrete steps, but outgoing US President Joe Biden wants to leave Trump a heavy legacy.

TASS has compiled the key statements of the Russian foreign minister.

On Ukrainian conflict.

- Moscow is ready for any development of events around Ukraine, but prefers a peaceful settlement taking into account Russia's security interests.

- If Ukraine wants peace, it should give up its NATO aspirations, close Western military bases and cancel drills with foreign troops.

- Zelensky in 2022 was convinced that he would dictate terms to the West, so he signed a decree banning negotiations with Russia.

- The Russian Federation never intended to kill people in Ukraine, unlike Zelensky's regime.

- The Ukrainian conflict should be resolved on the basis of the UN Charter, but in its entirety.

On use of Oreshnik missile.

- The West is making a big mistake by believing that Russia's "red lines" are flexible.

- Russia does not want a nuclear war with the United States and is doing everything to prevent it.

- The Oreshnik missile strike showed that Russia is ready to use any means to prevent the West from achieving its goal of inflicting a "strategic defeat" on the country.

- Russia is ready to send additional messages if the West does not draw the necessary conclusions after the use of the Oreshnik missile.

On relations with US.

- Russia wants normal relations with the United States and sees no reason why the two countries cannot cooperate.

- There are several closed channels between Moscow and Washington, mostly on issues of prisoner exchange.

- Russia will judge the Trump administration by concrete steps, but outgoing President Joe Biden wants to leave a heavy legacy. This is similar to what President Barack Obama did with Trump.

- Trump is a strong and friendly politician, but he is not pro-Russian.

- The ball in Russia's contacts with the US president-elect is in Trump's court.

On situation in Syria.

- Stabilizing the situation in Syria is not easy, it is a complex game involving many actors.

- Russia will discuss with its partners the issue of cutting off the channels of financing and arming terrorists in Syria.

[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2966115]My advice: sell your rubles.[/QUOTE]You do not understand this conflict, or anything related, so I don't know why you're even in this discussion. You have nothing to contribute, you live in a fantasy world.

[QUOTE=Questner;2966153]...interview with American journalist Tucker Carlson...

- Stabilizing the situation in Syria is not easy, it is a complex game involving many actors...[/QUOTE]Tucker is not a journalist in any sense of the word. Your post is simply regurgitated Russian propaganda; however, I do agree with you on the last point. While I'm not exactly rooting for the rebels, I am happy that it is weakening Russia. They are desperate to maintain their military presence in Syria and have been forced to divert military forces there. I don't expect the Syrian conflict to be definitive to the war in Ukraine, but it does help. I am hopeful that they will be able to seize the Russian naval base in Latakia.

[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2966270] While I'm not exactly rooting for the rebels, I am happy that it is weakening Russia. They are desperate to maintain their military presence in Syria and have been forced to divert military forces there. I don't expect the Syrian conflict to be definitive to the war in Ukraine, but it does help. I am hopeful that they will be able to seize the Russian naval base in Latakia.[/QUOTE]This is why people like you are disgusting and hypocritical. When it suits you, you call them rebels, when in reality they are designated TERRORISTS by all the west. Admit it, you are rooting for them because you think it will weaken Russia.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2966275]This is why people like you are disgusting and hypocritical. When it suits you, you call them rebels, when in reality they are designated TERRORISTS by all the west. Admit it, you are rooting for them because you think it will weaken Russia.[/QUOTE]While many (but not all) of them are terrorists, they're at least not nuclear-armed terrorists like Russia. If they're capable of distracting your failed mafia state terrorist armed forces--even a little bit--that's already a big help.

People are getting fed up. Syria, Georgia, Abkhazia, Armenia. Things are starting to look up. Trump might simply not be able to save his BFF.

[QUOTE=Xpartan;2965894]Like I said in another thread, hypocrites are the worst.

Propacondoms providing the murderous Putin regime with the informational fog cover are worse than traditional war criminals like their generals, politicians and frontline sadists and murderers who rape, torture and kill civilians and prisoners of war. Their feigning empathy makes them more despicable than actual killers.[/QUOTE]I'd guess there are only two participants in this thread who've actually lived or spent a lot of time in the FSU, Blood Red and Questner. The rest of us may have spent a few weeks here and there in Russia or Ukraine and read from our favorite media sources, but we really don't understand the situation like they do. We're like the French guy who's currently posting in the American Politics thread.

Here's something I posted some months back.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2927745]This is a message I got today from a western business associate who worked in the FSU for a couple of decades. It's about one of his business partners who was originally from the Donbas. I've omitted places and names so I don't "out" myself or him.

*****s extended family, Aunts and Uncles and cousins live in (Name of city and area in Donbas) under the jack-boot of the Ukrainian Army and last time I heard feed-back about six months ago, they were fearing for their lives daily. Skin-heads patrol the streets and pistol whip any dissenters. They are afraid to speak Russian as they have a mixed Russian and Cossack heritage. *****s aunt and uncles and cousins have been living in their respective basements for a few years now, one cousin died of a heart attack last year (only 30 years old). ***** was devastated, it's all very sad for Ukrainians to be thrust into a major war with one of the most effective yet brutal armies historically and the west pouring weapons in, to 'save Ukraine just increases the misery of the people who can't do much as they don't live in a democracy as we understand it.[/QUOTE]In addition to living in Russia and having the partner who's from eastern Ukraine, he lived through and fought in the struggle that may be the closest thing to the Russia / Ukraine war in the English speaking world during our lifetimes. He's not, as you say, a "useful idiot. " Neither are you. And Questner and Blood Red are not "propacondoms. " Rather, we're posters in a thread on a hooker board that's read by a handful of people.

[QUOTE=Questner;2966153] ... American journalist Tucker Carlson... [/QUOTE]The word journalist is getting abused here.

This is the guy who was amazed by the futuristic shopping cart technology in a Moscow mall (You can lock them with tokens or coins! They don't slide back on a moving walkway!) and swallowed Putins lie that it was the fault of Poland that poor mass murderers Hitler and Stalin invaded Poland in September 1939.

If you believe that guy is a journalist you probably have at home a testicle tanning device.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2966275]This is why people like you are disgusting and hypocritical. When it suits you, you call them rebels, when in reality they are designated TERRORISTS by all the west. Admit it, you are rooting for them because you think it will weaken Russia.[/QUOTE]The rebel group is comprised of many factions: reconstituted Al Qaeda, Druze, Christians, Kurds and random groups that just want to get rid of al Assad. I believe most of the coordination and intelligence for the rebellion comes from Turkey. I am in favor of a pluralistic, democratic Syria and I agree with you that Al Qaeda, regardless of what they call themselves now, are terrorists. I am also against the suffering of the Syrian people; however, I believe a brutal, totalitarian, revanchist Russia is a far greater threat to peace and should be resisted by the forces of Democracy. I don't want to see one dictatorship exchanged for another in Syria, but I do rejoice in anything that weakens an imperialistic, hegemonistic, fascist dictatorship -- Russia. To a lesser extent I feel the same way about Iran, which is a religious dictatorship that recklessly and needlessly interferes in the affairs of neighboring states. I say 'to a lesser extent' because they are not currently engaged in the invasion of another sovereign state and the murder of tens of thousands of its citizens.

[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2966305]I am in favor of a pluralistic, democratic Syria [/QUOTE]You don't know shit about Syria. It will never be a democracy.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2966301]I'd guess there are only two participants in this thread who've actually lived or spent a lot of time in the FSU, Blood Red and Questner. The rest of us may have spent a few weeks here and there in Russia or Ukraine and read from our favorite media sources, but we really don't understand the situation like they do. We're like the French guy who's currently posting in the American Politics thread.[/QUOTE]If only those who have spent a lot of time in Russia or Ukraine are qualified to speak on this matter, then it's a big tell that you aren't listening to the slew of Ukrainians that are saying the same things as Xpartan. No your "preferred media sources" are unattributed copy and pastes and paraphrases from Russian state media, while spending half your day cuddling your nose in Questner and Blood Red's buttholes. And, at your suggestion, in a forum that hardly anyone reads. What a life, huh? Wink.

[QUOTE=Riina;2966310]You don't know shit about Syria. It will never be a democracy.[/QUOTE]He probably also thinks that Ukraine will get Crimea and the 4 new Russian regions back through diplomacy. He probably also believes in Zelensky's 'Victory Plan'.

[QUOTE=Riina;2966310]You don't know shit about Syria. It will never be a democracy.[/QUOTE]It's aspirational.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2966301]I'd guess there are only two participants in this thread who've actually lived or spent a lot of time in the FSU, Blood Red and Questner. The rest of us may have spent a few weeks here and there in Russia or Ukraine and read from our favorite media sources, but we really don't understand the situation like they do. We're like the French guy who's currently posting in the American Politics thread.[/QUOTE]1. You are obviously a Russophile. Which explains why you're looking for all possible and impossible excuses for Russia's monstrosity.

2. That pair that you revere so much are liars. I don't give a flying duck that they lived and traveled in Russia. Would you have to be a resident or frequent traveler to Germany, China or Cambodia to figure out that Hitler, Mao and Pol Pot did some monumentally shitty things?

3. How hard is it to understand the nature of Russia's aggression? How hard is it to see the unspeakable atrocities committed against civilians by their so-called armed forces? How hard is it to see the extreme level of oppression against their own population? Really, Tiny, you have to be willfully blind.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2966301]In addition to living in Russia and having the partner who's from eastern Ukraine, he lived through and fought in the struggle that may be the closest thing to the Russia / Ukraine war in the English speaking world during our lifetimes. He's not, as you say, a "useful idiot. " Neither are you. And Questner and Blood Red are not "propacondoms. " Rather, we're posters in a thread on a hooker board that's read by a handful of people.[/QUOTE]1. What is that "struggle that may be the closest thing to the Russia / Ukraine war in the English speaking world"? Unless you're talking about Northern Ireland (not even NEARLY the closest thing) I can't think of anything.

2. No one banned or is banning the Russian language even now during the war. There are soldiers WITHIN AFU who don't speak Ukrainian, and no one gives a fuck. All fairytales about suppression of Russian language in Ukraine is Russian propaganda. There is no truth in it.

3. I have 90% confidence that RedBlood is a paid Russian propacondom (and not very good one at that). Questner is (most likely) not a paid propacondom. Just a fanatic who believes in the future of the Russian empire. Russian nationals like him who're in love with Putin yet prefer living in the West they hate so much, are dime a dozen. From what I understand, RedBlood lives outside Russia too. Funny how they go out of their way to stay away from the motherland they love so much.

[QUOTE=Paulie97;2966337]If only those who have spent a lot of time in Russia or Ukraine are qualified to speak on this matter, then it's a big tell that you aren't listening to the slew of Ukrainians that are saying the same things as Xpartan. No your "preferred media sources" are unattributed copy and pastes and paraphrases from Russian state media, while spending half your day cuddling your nose in Questner and Blood Red's buttholes. And, at your suggestion, in a forum that hardly anyone reads. What a life, huh? Wink.[/QUOTE]

You've been wrong about this for a long time. Many have died. A majority of Ukrainians want negotiations soon to end the war. They don’t want to continue as cannon fodder in the cause of western Neoconservatives.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2966473]You've been wrong about this for a long time. Many have died. A majority of Ukrainians want negotiations soon to end the war. They dont want to continue as cannon fodder in the cause of western Neoconservatives.[/QUOTE]Now they want to lower the conscription age to 18 years. I bet many here will support that. Those kids will go to the frontline and die for nothing.

Until the last Ukrainian, right?

Horrific.

[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2966405]It's aspirational.[/QUOTE]Yeah LOL. Remember how the American attempt to export democracy to Iraq turned out?

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2966487]Yeah LOL. Remember how the American attempt to export democracy to Iraq turned out?[/QUOTE]I hope for democracy in Russia as well.

[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2966305]...I do rejoice in anything that weakens an imperialistic, hegemonistic, fascist dictatorship -- Russia....[/QUOTE]From an article about Abu Mohammed al-Jolani, who leads Hayat Tahrir al-Sham (HTS), which took over Aleppo and Damascus:

"Jolani capitalised on the recent outreach he'd conducted with tribes, former opponents and minority groups, brokering surrenders and ordering the protection of minorities. [B]He even directed a statement to Russia, which has helped Assad for years, suggesting HTS and Moscow could find common ground in rebuilding Syria.[/B]".

[URL]https://www.ft.com/content/574cc17a-fa3a-411b-acb0-34fc032c7fe4[/URL]

The USA is offering a $10 million bounty for Jolani's (aka Jawlani's) head, figuratively speaking. This describes the reward and some of his misdeeds:

[url]https://rewardsforjustice.net/rewards/muhammad-al-jawlani/[/url]

[QUOTE=Xpartan;2966431]2. No one banned or is banning the Russian language even now during the war. There are soldiers WITHIN AFU who don't speak Ukrainian, and no one gives a fuck. All fairytales about suppression of Russian language in Ukraine is Russian propaganda. There is no truth in it.[/QUOTE][URL]https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/01/19/new-language-requirement-raises-concerns-ukraine[/URL]

These articles from Amnesty International and the Ukrainian National News Agency aren't directly related to your comment but may be of interest.

[URL]https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2015/04/ukraine-suspicious-deaths-need-credible-investigations/[/URL]
[URL]https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/press-release/2015/12/ukraine-communist-party-ban-decisive-blow-for-freedom-of-speech-in-the-country/[/URL]
[URL]https://www.ukrinform.net/rubric-society/3932810-ssu-detains-five-prorussian-agitators.html[/URL]

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2966486]Now they want to lower the conscription age to 18 years. [b]I bet many here will support that.[/b] Those kids will go to the frontline and die for nothing.

Until the last Ukrainian, right?

Horrific.[/QUOTE]Bold Text: You don't see them lining up to go and fight. If you're sitting in an armchair in Des Moines, Iowa, and it's Russians and Ukrainians dying instead of Americans, it's easy to sermonize.

[QUOTE=PaulInZurich;2966304]The word journalist is getting abused here.

This is the guy who was amazed by the futuristic shopping cart technology in a Moscow mall (You can lock them with tokens or coins! They don't slide back on a moving walkway!) and swallowed Putins lie that it was the fault of Poland that poor mass murderers Hitler and Stalin invaded Poland in September 1939.

If you believe that guy is a journalist you probably have at home a testicle tanning device.[/QUOTE]We have a proverb about a thief donning a fiery hat, meaning it's actually you have got the device under your bed.

The other expression is about 'unfinished fascist'. I actually even know the menu on the table of 1939 agreement and talked to first hand witnesses. How about yourself?

You are also clueless about what Tucker represents. Maybe you are scared we don't see Switzerland as neutral anymore? Jealous Tucker makes more than you? Can you present your journalist credentials?

Can you even post anything reasonably critical about Tucker's questions? I can.

Its very simple for myself, I'm a local with deep intimate understanding of the character of leadership, people, language, religion, business and war in my homeland, both in Ukraine and Russia.

For anyone who dares to put their hand into our cookie jar, the message is we will cut it off. Anyone who comes into our land with a sword dies of the sword.

[URL]https://youtu.be/RqvciPA5oa4?si=am9zfTZvVZZ29rxu[/URL]

[QUOTE=Questner;2966608] I actually even know the menu on the table of 1939 agreement and talked to first hand witnesses.[/QUOTE]LOL. Sure buddy, everybody believes you talked to first hand witnesses of the 1939 agreement. This makes everything else you say very believable.

I would like for you to explain how two of the biggest mass murderers in history having an agreement to carve out other countries was a good thing. Funny how Putin who talks about "denazification" of Ukraine finds excuses for Hitler.

[QUOTE=Questner;2966608] Maybe you are scared we don't see Switzerland as neutral anymore? [/QUOTE]Buddy, I couldn't care less how Russians see Switzerland. I wonder why all of Russians neighbours, Finland, Baltic countries, Poland, Romania all have the same opinion about Russia.

I live a comfortable, safe life where you can only wish they would allow you in. Maybe ask yourself why nobody from western countries moves to Russia and why all Russian politicians and millionaires send their offspring to Western universities. Remind me, how many Russians fled Russia after Russia invaded Ukraine?

[QUOTE=Questner;2966608] Jealous Tucker makes more than you?[/QUOTE]So, if I don't agree with somebody's opinion then I am jealous. So, by the same logic, that makes you jealous of me.

[QUOTE=Questner;2966608] Can you present your journalist credentials?[/QUOTE]You really got me there. I am not a journalist. Wait, I don't think I ever pretended to be one. But since you asked, why don't YOU present your journalist credentials?

[QUOTE=Questner;2966608]Can you even post anything reasonably critical about Tucker's questions? I can.[/QUOTE]You missed the whole point. He let Putin lie his ass off because he is either clueless about European history or he doesn't care about the truth at all. Actually, I bet both reasons are true.

He was probably still under shock after he saw that Russian futuristic shopping cart technology that exists since the 1930's in the civilized world.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2966487]Yeah LOL. Remember how the American attempt to export democracy to Iraq turned out?[/QUOTE]Yes, US made a mess in the Middle East, just like everybody else. The locals need to want democracy too.

Counterpoint, Western Germany vs Eastern Germany, South Korea, Taiwan, Japan. Remind me, in which country did Russia bring democracy and prosperity?

[QUOTE=Questner;2966612]

For anyone who dares to put their hand into our cookie jar, the message is we will cut it off. Anyone who comes into our land with a sword dies of the sword.[/QUOTE]Really? Oi vey!

How about Putin's hand? How about his oligarch bodies? LOL.

Their greedy paws never stop wondering, even now when your pariah mafia state is in a downward death spiral.

Your cookie jar is shrinking every second of every day, yet you don't seem to mind. Tens of millions of Russians are living in slums, without heating, indoor plumbing and running water, and the best you can do is get on your knees to record pathetic pleas to your mass-murdering, thieving chieftain, who gives his subjects as much attention as a fly on a wall.

[B]Putin brought Russians to their knees[/B]

[QUOTE]For more than 20 years, the permanent Tsar of Russia has been bringing his people to their knees. This time - in the literal sense of the word. Russians, indoctrinated by pro-Kremlin propaganda, decided that Putin could do anything and began to post video messages to him on the Internet. A characteristic feature of such videos is that people kneel in front of the camera and ask Putin to understand their problem. This is due to the slave mentality and lack of ability of local officials to perform their duties, experts say. Desperate, people ask the "good tsar" for help, having forgotten who's really responsible that they live like this. [/QUOTE][URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PELmv-KgZN4[/URL]

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2966556]Bold Text: You don't see them lining up to go and fight. If you're sitting in an armchair in Des Moines, Iowa, and it's Russians and Ukrainians dying instead of Americans, it's easy to sermonize.[/QUOTE]Exactly. Lindsey Graham openly said a long time ago that it is Ukrainians that are dying, not Americans, so it's OK. He felt no shame in saying it. Then recently he said there were a lot of minerals in Ukraine and hence America can't let Russia take all of that. I'm shocked that some people still don't see that America aka NATO does not give a shit about the Ukrainian people. Ukrainian lives are worthless to them.

[QUOTE=Questner;2966612]Its very simple for myself, I'm a local with deep intimate understanding of the character of leadership, people, language, religion, business and war in my homeland, both in Ukraine and Russia.

For anyone who dares to put their hand into our cookie jar, the message is we will cut it off. Anyone who comes into our land with a sword dies of the sword.

[URL]https://youtu.be/RqvciPA5oa4?si=am9zfTZvVZZ29rxu[/URL][/QUOTE]There is the Freudian concept of decompensation -- look it up.

Question: do you have access to Russian Telegram groups? What is the general reaction to the fall of al Assad in Syria and the probable loss of the naval base in Tartus? I think this is a great humiliation for Putin.

[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2966779]There is the Freudian concept of decompensation -- look it up.

Question: do you have access to Russian Telegram groups? What is the general reaction to the fall of al Assad in Syria and the probable loss of the naval base in Tartus? I think this is a great humiliation for Putin.[/QUOTE]Are you happy that terrorists took over Syria?

[QUOTE=PaulInZurich;2966679]Yes, US made a mess in the Middle East, just like everybody else. The locals need to want democracy too.

Counterpoint, Western Germany vs Eastern Germany, South Korea, Taiwan, Japan. Remind me, in which country did Russia bring democracy and prosperity?[/QUOTE]I don't think Russia has ever claimed it is bringing democracy to any country, so your question is irrelevant.

[QUOTE=Xpartan;2966680]
Your cookie jar is shrinking every second of every day, yet you don't seem to mind. Tens of millions of Russians are living in slums, without heating, indoor plumbing and running water, and the best you can do is get on your knees to record pathetic pleas to your mass-murdering, thieving chieftain, who gives his subjects as much attention as a fly on a wall.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=PaulInZurich;2966676]I live a comfortable, safe life where you can only wish they would allow you in. Maybe ask yourself why nobody from western countries moves to Russia and why all Russian politicians and millionaires send their offspring to Western universities. Remind me, how many Russians fled Russia after Russia invaded Ukraine?
[/QUOTE]Have you gentlemen visited Russia? Moscow's in better shape than any Latin American capitol I've been to. And IMO better than Lisbon and Athens. Look at tables of per capita income or GDP adjusted for purchasing power. They support that view. Russia's per capita GDP adjusted for purchasing power is about 2-1/2 times greater than Ukraine's.

I have a friend (Russian American) who had to move from Moscow to a city that's considered one of the most desirable places to live in the world because his company left Russia when sanctions were imposed. He'd much rather be in Moscow. And I know a few others as well, both westerners and native Russians, who prefer life in Russia. Correct though, most people would probably rather live in Switzerland, which is one of the most prosperous countries in the world. While westerners aren't rushing to move to Russia, in part because of sanctions, people from other FSU states are.

[QUOTE=PaulInZurich;2966676]LOL. Sure buddy, everybody believes you talked to first hand witnesses of the 1939 agreement. This makes everything else you say very believable.[/QUOTE]Molotov, who signed the agreement for Russia in Moscow, didn't die until 1986. Undoubtedly younger people were present at the signing.

[QUOTE=PaulInZurich;2966676]I would like for you to explain how two of the biggest mass murderers in history having an agreement to carve out other countries was a good thing.[/QUOTE]Not to speak for him, but Questner never said that was a good thing.

Tucker Carlson sometimes is completely full of shit, and sometimes he's spot on. Having only seen the first part of the interview with Putin, I'm not sure which applied. Agreed, he's not a journalist.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2966792]Are you happy that terrorists took over Syria?[/QUOTE]Clearly not. I prefer a secular fascist state to a religious fascist state. I believe that history will reflect somewhat positively on the Soviet coup in Afghanistan in 1978 (and to a lesser extent on the Russian support of al Assad). The Soviet backed PDPA was non sectarian, supported women's right and land reform. In the zero sum Cold War, the US unfortunately backed the Taliban -- you know, the enemy of my enemy sort of thinking. Al-Assad, like Saddam before him, is from a minority ethnic group in a multi-cultural state and ruled accordingly. It remains to be seen whether the Druzes, Christians, atheists, democrats, Yazidis, Kurds, etc. Can resist the anti-democratic forces of the HTS. I am dubious, but hopeful.

However, I am immensely gratified to see anything that humiliates and weakens Putin. He is evil incarnate, completely self interested and is personally responsible for the death of many tens of thousands of people. I hope for his downfall, arrest and a return to democratic thought, pluralism and a free press in Russia.

Meanwhile, sell your rubles.

[QUOTE=Xpartan;2966680]Really? Oi vey!

How about Putin's hand? How about his oligarch bodies? LOL.[/QUOTE]Buddies, obviously, LOL.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2966802]Have you gentlemen visited Russia? Moscow's in better shape than any Latin American capitol I've been to. And IMO better than Lisbon and Athens. [/QUOTE]How nave do you have to be if to say this with a straight face! Yes, Moscow is a world class city. But that's only because it's sucking life, blood and wealth out of the rest of Russia. Every Russian will tell you MOSCOW IS NOT RUSSIA! Every Russian unequivocally hates the city of Moscow. They were overjoyed when Ukraine hit Moscow with drones, for Christ's sake. That's all you need to know.

And yes, to answer your question I've been to Moscow, Ukraine and many other cities in Russia and FSU, but once again: having been to Russia is NOT a prerequisite to understanding what this failed fascist mafia state is doing right now.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2966802]Look at tables of per capita income or GDP adjusted for purchasing power. They support that view. Russia's per capita GDP adjusted for purchasing power is about 2-1/2 times greater than Ukraine's.[/QUOTE]What are you talking about? Their GDP is boosted by war. Up to 41% of their budget is war and security. Try to spread a bullet on a piece of bread, then come back and tells us how it worked for you.

The sanctions, though fairly toothless, are working, and if the oil prices really go down as the world economists predict, that's the lights out for your favorite failed fascist mafia state.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2966802]While westerners aren't rushing to move to Russia, in part because of sanctions, people from other FSU states are.[/QUOTE]First of all they WERE flocking to Russia for work. Second, not anymore. Fascists being fascists can't help themselves. Even with the critical shortage of labor in Russia, they're either pushing migrants to join the war or squeezing them out. Most make the right choice, and new potential migrants stay home.

Read: [B]Russia is expelling migrants at a record pace.[/B].

[URL]https://www.trtrussian.com/novosti/rossiya-vysylaet-migrantov-rekordnymi-tempami-18222890[/URL]

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2966802]Molotov, who signed the agreement for Russia in Moscow, didn't die until 1986. Undoubtedly younger people were present at the signing.[/QUOTE]Sigh! They would've had to be very young people in 1939, wouldn't they, though? So young, in fact, that they most probably would've had no idea what was going on around them. And even if we presume that those "present at the signing" weren't Questner's imaginary friends, there's no way on earth they would've known the context of the "secret protocols". Those were worked on by a very narrow group of people.

Heard of the Secret Protocols? They are the essence of the The Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. Read: [URL]https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/the-molotov-ribbentrop-pact-august-1939[/URL]#text.

It's quite touching (NOT) to watch how you defend Questner and his buddy here--to and beyond the point of absurdity.

[QUOTE=PaulInZurich;2966676]LOL. Sure buddy, everybody believes you talked to first hand witnesses of the 1939 agreement. This makes everything else you say very believable.

I would like for you to explain how two of the biggest mass murderers in history having an agreement to carve out other countries was a good thing. Funny how Putin who talks about "denazification" of Ukraine finds excuses for Hitler.

Buddy, I couldn't care less how Russians see Switzerland. I wonder why all of Russians neighbours, Finland, Baltic countries, Poland, Romania all have the same opinion about Russia..[/QUOTE]Tucker asked soft questions to make the interviewed can deliver his message to the audience. This is what good interviewer does. Remember Larry King? Now, the previous journalists from FOX and CNN failed because they were full of ego, made sure their position within a network is not in jeopardy and repeated the same stupid mantra.

There was a number of about maybe 300,000 that left in 2022. Majority is back for many reasons and the most important that there is no second wave of mobilization, it's cheaper to rely on contract soldiers, not very socially fair, but cheaper.

Life in Switzerland is much more comfortable, you always have clean latrines. However, spiritually I doubt it very much. At the end we all face the same Totendanz. You have to understand that through our history we faced not only one Till but hordes of arches all aimed at the apple above our head.

Swedes proved the dumbest to join NATO, all after surviving in two world wars and many other conflicts after the Napoleonic wars.

When in Moscow (unless you get trapped at one of the many metro staircases) buy this guy a cup of coffee and ask all the questions about 1939 pact: [URL]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vyacheslav_Nikonov[/URL].

In 1939 it was obviously clear that the war inevitable. The only question was with whom and when. The pact allowed us to move the border west that helped much in summer of 1941. The pact also allowed millions of people to evacuate east. Large part of that evacuated population was Jewish.

Any grievances with the President? Ask him directly at [URL]https://moskva-putinu.ru/[/URL] and get an answer this December 19th.

[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2966808]Clearly not. I prefer a secular fascist state to a religious fascist state. I believe that history will reflect somewhat positively on the Soviet coup in Afghanistan in 1978 (and to a lesser extent on the Russian support of al Assad). The Soviet backed PDPA was non sectarian, supported women's right and land reform. [/QUOTE]For once I agree with you. Assad had his faults I'm sure, but he was far better than the terrorists that have taken over Syria with support from the collective west.

[QUOTE=Questner;2966872] ... ask all the questions about 1939 pact: [URL]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vyacheslav_Nikonov[/URL].[/QUOTE]So clearly you don't understand what first hand witness means. And sure, that guy talks to a low level troll, uh huh.

[QUOTE=Questner;2966872]In 1939 it was obviously clear that the war inevitable. The only question was with whom and when. [/QUOTE]So let's just invade whoever happens to be nearby, just in case. Poland, Finland, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Bessarabia, who cares? This way of thinking makes your kind very popular with your neighbors.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2966917]For once I agree with you. Assad had his faults I'm sure, but he was far better than the terrorists that have taken over Syria with support from the collective west.[/QUOTE]It remains to be seen. The Syrians seem pretty happy.

[QUOTE=Xpartan;2966823]
And yes, to answer your question I've been to Moscow, Ukraine and many other cities in Russia and FSU, but once again: having been to Russia is NOT a prerequisite to understanding what this failed fascist mafia state is doing right now.
[/QUOTE]Fair enough. You'd be in a better position than I am to understand the standard of living in the FSU from the viewpoint of the residents. Also, from your recent posts, you probably read and speak Russian. It's a difficult language to learn. I've tried twice and failed. BTW while we often disagree, I've always thought you're among the most intelligent political posters on the board. You're wrong about this though. There's no way Ukraine will win this war, and peace is in the best interest of both countries. Preferably before lots of blood is spilled over Pokrovsk.

[QUOTE=Xpartan;2966823]What are you talking about? Their GDP is boosted by war. Up to 41% of their budget is war and security. Try to spread a bullet on a piece of bread, then come back and tells us how it worked for you.[/QUOTE]Then take a look at the Wayback Machine. In 2020 and 2021, Russian and Greek GDP per capita adjusted for purchasing power were about the same. And Russia's GDP per capita was about 2.1 to 2.2 X Ukraine's.

[URL]https://web.archive.org/web/20220328091050/https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PPP%29_per_capita[/URL]

Russia was spending around 3.8% of GDP before the war and 5. 8% in 2023, see

[URL]https://www.statista.com/statistics/810561/ratio-of-military-expenditure-to-gross-domestic-product-gdp-russia/[/URL]

The USA was spending more than that as a % of GDP the majority of the time from 1960 to 1989.

[URL]https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/countries/usa/united-states/military-spending-defense-budget[/URL]

Russia has the industrial capacity to continue this war for a long, long time. Or to end it quickly, by means of nuclear weapons or targeting civilians in large numbers. As to the later, I don't believe Russia would do that. But I also don't believe the west should push it into a corner and find out for sure.

[QUOTE=Xpartan;2966823]The sanctions, though fairly toothless, are working, and if the oil prices really go down as the world economists predict, that's the lights out for your favorite failed fascist mafia state.[/QUOTE]Were they lights out for Venezuela when the price of oil went down? For Iran? Sanctions haven't worked there. Nor have they in Cuba despite having been in place since 1960. Oswaldo Paya, the Cuban activist who was nominated five times for the Nobel Prize and killed by the regime, believed sanctions were stupid.

The Russian GDP was down 1.8% in 2022, but up 4.9% in 2023 and 3.1% in 2024. Russia, admittedly boosted by big defense expenditures, is outperforming the EU.

[QUOTE=Xpartan;2966823]First of all they WERE flocking to Russia for work. Second, not anymore. Fascists being fascists can't help themselves. Even with the critical shortage of labor in Russia, they're either pushing migrants to join the war or squeezing them out. Most make the right choice, and new potential migrants stay home.

Read: [B]Russia is expelling migrants at a record pace.[/B].

[URL]https://www.trtrussian.com/novosti/rossiya-vysylaet-migrantov-rekordnymi-tempami-18222890[/URL][/QUOTE]It sounds like they're deporting people who violated immigration laws. I'd question how many of the one million migrants left between when COVID started and the start of the war with Ukraine, as opposed to after the start of the war. And I'd point out that there's been a net outflow of Mexican immigrants from the USA during certain periods as well. That doesn't mean that many Mexicans don't prefer to live or work in the USA because economic conditions are better in the USA.

[QUOTE=Xpartan;2966823]Heard of the Secret Protocols? They are the essence of the The Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. Read: [URL]https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/the-molotov-ribbentrop-pact-august-1939[/URL]#text.[/QUOTE]I haven't read much about the treaty. Based on your link, yes, it looks like Russia and Germany did premeditatedly decide to screw over Poland.

[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2966968]It remains to be seen. The Syrians seem pretty happy.[/QUOTE]So you think Al Qaida / ISIS terrorists are a better bet than an educated, secular dictator like Assad?

The Syrian people are innocent, I love them and I want nothing but the best for them. Just like the Ukrainian people, they are innocent.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2967084]So you think Al Qaida / ISIS terrorists are a better bet than an educated, secular dictator like Assad?

The Syrian people are innocent, I love them and I want nothing but the best for them. Just like the Ukrainian people, they are innocent.[/QUOTE]The end of Assad's rule marks the end for an easy weapons route from Iran to Syria to Hezbollah and Hamas.

Overall, that's a good thing.

We are on the cusp of the end of the Sunni Israel conflict. Saudi has been trading and working to normalize relations with Israel for quite some time now. Gaza has put that on hold, but just for a little while. As soon as Saudi recognizes Israel the rest of the Gulf States will fall in line. And it will be SUNY and Israel versus Iran and the few Shia that are left. Iran's new guy is far more moderate. With Iran being more and more isolated the possibility of the Revolutionary guard and the mothers losing power increases.

Additionally with the fall of Assad we have decreased the influence of Russia in the Middle East.

We shall have to see how things work out in the new Syria. What role will the Kurds play? Will we see another balkans?

Overall I'm a bit more optimistic. But as long as we have islamists in charge of states in the middle east, peace will be impossible. And let's not forget that the majority of the Gulf States in Egypt have harsher laws against islamists than we do in the West.

[QUOTE=Questner;2966865]Tucker asked soft questions to make the interviewed can deliver his message to the audience. This is what good interviewer does. [/QUOTE]No, that is called sucking up. It's the mentality of a slave. A good interviewer challenges obvious lies.

[QUOTE=Questner;2966865] You have to understand that through our history we faced not only one Till but hordes of arches all aimed at the apple above our head.[/QUOTE]Clearly you know nothing about the Wilhelm Tell myth.

[QUOTE=Questner;2966865]Swedes proved the dumbest to join NATO, all after surviving in two world wars and many other conflicts after the Napoleonic wars.[/QUOTE]You can thank Putin being so aggressive with its neighbors that Sweden and Finland joined NATO. Great strategic move from Putin. Obviously Sweden and Finland did the right thing, now they have long term real security guarantees. Bullies don't stop bullying until they are being pushed back.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2967084]So you think Al Qaida / ISIS terrorists are a better bet than an educated, secular dictator like Assad?

The Syrian people are innocent, I love them and I want nothing but the best for them. Just like the Ukrainian people, they are innocent.[/QUOTE]This is called the strawman fallacy. For sure, al Assad was pretty bad. I would hope for a rational, democratic state. I desire the same outcome for Russians. Get rid of Putin.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2966703]Exactly. Lindsey Graham openly said a long time ago that it is Ukrainians that are dying, not Americans, so it's OK. He felt no shame in saying it. Then recently he said there were a lot of minerals in Ukraine and hence America can't let Russia take all of that. I'm shocked that some people still don't see that America aka NATO does not give a shit about the Ukrainian people. Ukrainian lives are worthless to them.[/QUOTE]The allies helping Ukraine are of course doing it out of self interest, whether it be their own security, or future economic concerns. The fact that it's the morally right thing to do, to stop a violent dictatorship taking over a self sovereign nation, is gravy.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2966792]Are you happy that terrorists took over Syria?[/QUOTE]Are you happy that bloodthirsty kleptocrats are in charge of Russia?

[QUOTE=Questner;2966865]
Life in Switzerland is much more comfortable, you always have clean latrines. However, spiritually I doubt it very much. At the end we all face the same Totendanz. You have to understand that through our history we faced not only one Till but hordes of arches all aimed at the apple above our head.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=PaulInZurich;2967106]Clearly you know nothing about the Wilhelm Tell myth.[/QUOTE]Yep. The dumbest reference ever.

It's telling, though, how this Putin's fanboy unwittingly but rightly identifies his country as tyranny suppressing freedom throughout its history.

[QUOTE=PaulInZurich;2967106]No, that is called sucking up. It's the mentality of a slave. A good interviewer challenges obvious lies.

Clearly you know nothing about the Wilhelm Tell myth.

You can thank Putin being so aggressive with its neighbors that Sweden and Finland joined NATO. Great strategic move from Putin. Obviously Sweden and Finland did the right thing, now they have long term real security guarantees. Bullies don't stop bullying until they are being pushed back.[/QUOTE]You can try to deflect from the main questions as far as you can (poking on a messenger and forgetting the message, trying to connect the present leadership with the WWII era, having doubts about Russia's technological strengths, laughing at the quality of life from the level of a neat latrine etc) however the questions will remain the same:

What is the origin of the conflict? What are the positions of the parties? How to end the conflict in a way that will bring open borders, friendship and better life? How to avoid escalation of this conflict?

If you can contribute something of value you are welcome. By the way, both Sweden and Finland joined without a referendum. Will Switzerland join without a referendum?

I am pessimistic about European future. In 1940 we moved the border west near Leningrad. We are ready to move it again if needed. We have even a saying that Russian Army is used to pay a visit into Berlin and Paris once in a century. I don't think it would be wise to prompt the invitation.

Example of an opinion: [URL]https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/no-ukraine-settlement-unless-washington-talks-moscow-214026[/URL].

[QUOTE=Questner;2967283]What is the origin of the conflict? [/QUOTE]Easy. Putin wants to be remembered in history as the next Peter the Great. He doesn't care if hundreds of thousands (Russians and Ukrainians, doesn't matter to him) are killed for this purpose.

[QUOTE=Questner;2967283]What are the positions of the parties? [/QUOTE]Ukrainians want to be able to make their own decisions about their own country. Putin believes that he can invade any neighbouring country if he feels like it.

[QUOTE=Questner;2967283]How to end the conflict in a way that will bring open borders, friendship and better life? [/QUOTE]I doubt you will have open borders and friendship between Ukraine and Russia. My family was impacted about both world wars. I can tell you that people don't forget what happened to them during a war.

[QUOTE=Questner;2967283]
1) In 1940 we moved the border west near Leningrad. We are ready to move it again if needed.
2) We have even a saying that Russian Army is used to pay a visit into Berlin and Paris once in a century.[/QUOTE]1) The mighty Red Army had serious problems with the few Finnish, defending their territory. Only during second winter war, Red Army had real success.

The Finnish got only minimal official foreign support, not even from their neighbour Sweden.

Different scenario today: Putler succeeded to bring Finland and Sweden into NATO.

2) The visit to Berlin was badly supported by the USA: About 7,000 tanks, 11,000 aircraft, 400,000 Jeeps and trucks.

Different scenario today.

And, the Chinese will sooner or later liberate their ethnic relatives in Siberia, and ask the RF for historically Chinese territory.

What Putler can do, the Chinese can do, as well.

When was Russian Army in Paris, BTW? I mean, not as friendly visitors?

Anyway, you openly confirm the imperialistic, aggressive attitude of Russia.

[QUOTE=Questner;2967283]I am pessimistic about European future. In 1940 [b]we moved the border west near Leningrad[/b]. We are ready to move it again if needed. We have even a saying that Russian Army is used to pay a visit into Berlin and Paris once in a century. I don't think it would be wise to prompt the invitation.[/QUOTE]You moved the border alright, after dropping up to 1 million Russians dead. I don't think it was wise to remember the disastrous Winter War, the war against a tiny country that destroyed USSR's military credibility; the war that encouraged Hitler to attack quickly; the war Russia kept losing even after Russia's fortunes were reversed and the Nazis were on the run; the war Stalin had to settle because he wasn't willing to pay the price it would cost him to win decisively. Gee, if the Finnish war is the source of your national pride now, you're truly hopeless!

[QUOTE=PaulInZurich;2967349]Easy. Putin wants to be remembered in history as the next Peter the Great. He doesn't care if hundreds of thousands (Russians and Ukrainians, doesn't matter to him) are killed for this purpose.

Ukrainians want to be able to make their own decisions about their own country. Putin believes that he can invade any neighbouring country if he feels like it.

I doubt you will have open borders and friendship between Ukraine and Russia. My family was impacted about both world wars. I can tell you that people don't forget what happened to them during a war.[/QUOTE]Thank you very much. Let me rephrase, for example:

I guess President Lyndon be. Johnson wanted to be remembered in history as the next Barry Lyndon the Great. He didn't care if hundreds of thousands Vietnamese and Americans were killed for this purpose. Vietnamese wanted to be able to make their own decisions about their own country. Johnson believed that he could invade any neighbouring country if he felt like it. I doubt you will have open borders and friendship between Vietnam and the US. My family was impacted about both world wars. I can tell you that people don't forget what happened to them during a war.

Of course, by no means I would try to change anyone's opinion here. It's futile.

[QUOTE=Questner;2967519]Thank you very much. Let me rephrase, for example:
.....
[/QUOTE]I like this argumentation: Billy the Kid robbed the banks. Thus, I am also entitled to do the same.

Fortunately, there are (still) Russians, who privately talk totally different from your official standpoint of view. Writes somebody, who lived and worked several years in the RF.
And several years in UA, too.
I even was a fan of Putin. Before he started to copy Adolf.

[QUOTE=Questner;2967519]Thank you very much. Let me rephrase, for example: [/QUOTE]Vietnam or Iraq or whatever have nothing to do with the invasion of Ukraine.

Thank you for making my point that there is no valid reason for Putin to invade Ukraine. He is just a blood thirsty client. He believes that Ukraine has no right to exist.

[QUOTE=Questner;2967283]What is the origin of the conflict? What are the positions of the parties? How to end the conflict in a way that will bring open borders, friendship and better life? How to avoid escalation of this conflict?[/QUOTE]Absolutely. That's what the Russians, Ukrainians and the West should be seeking, not escalation or continuing the killing. Admittedly as pointed out by another poster, open borders (between the EU, Ukraine, Russia, etc) and friendship may be a ways off.

[QUOTE=Questner;2967519]Thank you very much. Let me rephrase, for example:

I guess President Lyndon be. Johnson wanted to be remembered in history as the next Barry Lyndon the Great. He didn't care if hundreds of thousands Vietnamese and Americans were killed for this purpose. Vietnamese wanted to be able to make their own decisions about their own country. Johnson believed that he could invade any neighbouring country if he felt like it. I doubt you will have open borders and friendship between Vietnam and the US. [/QUOTE]Then there was George W. Bush and Iraq. While the Iraqi's weren't able too make their own decisions about their own country, the grand experiment in installing democracy didn't work out too well.

Also, in decades and centuries past, there are the governments, a number of which were democracies, in Latin American and other places, overthrown with the help of Uncle Sam.

There is not a single tyrant in the last 100 years--Lenin, Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot, or Putin--who would've been as successful in their genocidal efforts if it hadn't been for a cheerful and enthusiastic assistance from useful idiots in the West.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2967681]Then there was George W. Bush and Iraq. While the Iraqi's weren't able too make their own decisions about their own country, the grand experiment in installing democracy didn't work out too well.

Also, in decades and centuries past, there are the governments, a number of which were democracies, in Latin American and other places, overthrown with the help of Uncle Sam.[/QUOTE]How do horrible American policies justify Putins invasion of Ukraine?

The narrative about Mr. Putin ambition is a fantasy. It's not a fact, theory or even speculation without being corroborated by his statements or other trustworthy source as defined by the intelligence community. The decision for the SMO was debated and authorized by the whole Security Council of the RF. Such decisions are not rubber stamped.

Ukrainians likely want to make their own decisions, but who would let them? This 'who would let them' is widely and clearly understood phrase both in Russia and Ukraine. It's the West who had all the chances not to intervene, not to spoil, molest, corrupt, bribe and undermine Ukraine's sovereignty but acted otherwise.

[QUOTE=Questner;2967813]The narrative about Mr. Putin ambition is a fantasy. It's not a fact, theory or even speculation without being corroborated by his statements or other trustworthy source as defined by the intelligence community. The decision for the SMO was debated and authorized by the whole Security Council of the RF. Such decisions are not rubber stamped.

Ukrainians likely want to make their own decisions, but who would let them? This 'who would let them' is widely and clearly understood phrase both in Russia and Ukraine. It's the West who had all the chances not to intervene, not to spoil, molest, corrupt, bribe and undermine Ukraine's sovereignty but acted otherwise.[/QUOTE]100% Russian propaganda.

[QUOTE=Questner;2967813]The narrative about Mr. Putin ambition is a fantasy. It's not a fact, theory or even speculation without being corroborated by his statements or other trustworthy source as defined by the intelligence community. The decision for the SMO was debated and authorized by the whole Security Council of the RF. Such decisions are not rubber stamped.[/QUOTE]This is so fucking funny. The guys in the Russian security council don't even wipe their ass unless Putin tells them to. Just a bunch of guys with mentality of slaves. Be careful, if you say otherwise, you will find out if you can fly.

[QUOTE=Questner;2967813]
Ukrainians likely want to make their own decisions, but who would let them? This 'who would let them' is widely and clearly understood phrase both in Russia and Ukraine. It's the West who had all the chances not to intervene, not to spoil, molest, corrupt, bribe and undermine Ukraine's sovereignty but acted otherwise.[/QUOTE]Who said that Ukraine is not even a real country? Right, that was your daddy Vladdy.

Eldar Mamedov addresses beliefs of a couple of board members in this piece in Responsible Statecraft.

[B]McCarthyism, European style: The elite crackdown on Ukraine dissent[/B]

[URL]https://responsiblestatecraft.org/europe-ukraine-war/[/URL]

[QUOTE=PaulInZurich;2967756]How do horrible American policies justify Putins invasion of Ukraine?[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=PaulInZurich;2967575]Vietnam or Iraq or whatever have nothing to do with the invasion of Ukraine.[/QUOTE]Eldar writes, [B]Stranne (leading Swedish international relations scholar Frida Stranne), while acknowledging that Russias invasion of Ukraine was an egregious breach of international law, [u]pointed to U.S. policies since 2001, such as the invasion of Iraq, noting that they have helped to undermine international legal principles and set the precedent for other countries acting preemptively against perceived threats.[/u]

In the same interview, she also warned that a refusal to countenance a negotiated settlement to the war in Ukraine is leading the world perilously close to the brink of a major military conflict between NATO and Russia.[/B].

[QUOTE=Xpartan;2967719] [b]Useful idiots are guilty too. Blood on their hands.[/b]

There is not a single tyrant in the last 100 years--Lenin, Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot, or Putin--who would've been as successful in their genocidal efforts if it hadn't been for a cheerful and enthusiastic assistance from useful idiots in the West.[/QUOTE]If you're going to include Putin with that group then you darn well better include George W. Bush too. By some estimates over 4 million died as a result of what he kicked off after September 11.

Anyway, Eldar writes, "[B] In March 2022, both Ukraine and Russia were close to a deal broadly along these same parameters. It did not work, because, among other reasons, the West encouraged Ukraine to believe that a military victory was possible. The role of then-British Prime Minister Boris Johnson in undermining the talks is now generally acknowledged. What is, however, particularly striking is that Johnson recently himself admitted that he saw the war in Ukraine as a proxy war against Russia a claim made by Stranne and the Quincy Institutes Trita Parsi in their 2023 book, in Swedish, The Illusion of American Peace, for which they were lambasted for purportedly pushing Russian narratives.[/B].

Now, who are the useful idiots, for the benefit of the arms industry and the generals? Academics like Frida Stranne and politicians like Donald Trump who've been pushing for peace since when this lunacy started? Or warmongers like Boris Johnson? A majority of Ukrainians now want negotiations to start to end the war. Are they useful idiots? From the NYT today,

[b]For all of Mr. Trumps bluster, many in Ukraine have pinned their hopes on him to end the war on acceptable terms. A recent poll by the New Europe Center found that 44 percent of Ukrainians trust Mr. Trump, higher than in any other European country, including Trump-friendly Hungary....I hope Trump will do what he promised for peace to come to Ukraine, said Yulia Lymych, 25, a real-estate agent. This is the main wish of Ukrainians. I feel very sorry for the guys who died at war. I have friends who died and friends who are still fighting. My boyfriend is fighting. I want them all to come back home.[/b]

[url]https://www.nytimes.com/2024/12/14/world/europe/trump-ukraine-russia.html?searchResultPosition=1[/url]

Is Yulia Lymych a useful idiot?

Putin's not genocidal. That's ridiculous. If he resorted to tactics like General Curtis LeMay or Air Chief Marshal Sir Arthur Harris, who masterminded carpet bombing of Japanese and German civilians respectively, there would be a lot of dead Ukrainian civilians. And that's without using nuclear weapons. This is almost certainly lower than the real number, but the Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights has only verified 12,162 Ukrainian civilian deaths through October, 2024.

[url]https://www.statista.com/statistics/1293492/ukraine-war-casualties/[/url]

[B]Priceless LOL![/B]

[QUOTE=questner;2967813]

Pearl #1: The narrative about mr. Putin ambition is a fantasy. It's not a fact, theory or even speculation without being corroborated by [b]his statements[/b] or other [b]trustworthy[/b] source.

Pearl #2:[b] ukrainians likely want to make their own decisions, but who would let them?[/b] this 'who would let them' is widely and clearly understood phrase both in russia and ukraine.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2968006] In March 2022, both Ukraine and Russia were close to a deal broadly along these same parameters. It did not work, because, among other reasons ... [/QUOTE]The "among other reasons" details are deal breakers.

Other than accepting the occupation of a large part of Ukrainian territory one other condition was severely limiting the size of the Ukrainian army to 50000 and what weapons it was allowed to have (aviation, armor, missiles). This would have guaranteed that Ukraine would have no means to defend itself in the future. Of course, Ukraine would have to trust Putin that it would not invade again, like after Minsk 1 and Minsk 2. Third time's a charm, right? It's not like Putin repeatedly said that Ukraine has no right to exist.

Such an accord could work only if you would have credible foreign troops as buffer between the Ukrainians and the Russians. What credible foreign troops are acceptable for both Russia and Ukraine?

The biggest success of Putin is that he managed to bullshit half the Republican party in the US. Ronald Reagan is turning in his grave.

Putin already robbed Crimea, now trying with Ukraine and killing nearly 1 million Russians. He also try to fuck Georgia and Romania. Our world would be better if we get rid of Putin. New Lenin, time to wake up, look what happened in Syria, all is possible even with a crazy dangerous who kill your children. Russia would live much better without Putin, when Russians and Ukrainians are brothers with many mixed families.

[QUOTE=PaulInZurich;2968036]The "among other reasons" details are deal breakers.

Other than accepting the occupation of a large part of Ukrainian territory one other condition was severely limiting the size of the Ukrainian army to 50000 and what weapons it was allowed to have (aviation, armor, missiles). This would have guaranteed that Ukraine would have no means to defend itself in the future. Of course, Ukraine would have to trust Putin that it would not invade again, like after Minsk 1 and Minsk 2. Third time's a charm, right? It's not like Putin repeatedly said that Ukraine has no right to exist.

Such an accord could work only if you would have credible foreign troops as buffer between the Ukrainians and the Russians. What credible foreign troops are acceptable for both Russia and Ukraine?

The biggest success of Putin is that he managed to bullshit half the Republican party in the US. Ronald Reagan is turning in his grave.[/QUOTE]I agree, that blaming it solely on Boris Johnson and western pressure is simplistic. This is the best article I've seen on negotiations during the early part of the war.

[URL]https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/06/15/world/europe/ukraine-russia-ceasefire-deal.html[/URL]

The biggest obstacle, as you say, revolved around how Ukraine could defend itself. But still the USA, Poland and others were encouraging the Ukrainians not to do a deal.

Excerpts from the article:

"We managed to find a very real compromise," Oleksandr Chalyi, a member of the Ukrainian negotiating team, said at a panel discussion in Geneva last December. "We were very close in the middle of April, in the end of April (2022), to finalize our war with some peaceful settlement. ".

The biggest problem, however, came in Article 5 (of the April 15,2022 draft peace treaty). It stated that, in the event of another armed attack on Ukraine, the "guarantor states" that would sign the treaty Great Britain, China, Russia, the United States and France would come to Ukraine's defense.

To the Ukrainians' dismay, there was a crucial departure from what Ukrainian negotiators said was discussed in Istanbul. Russia inserted a clause saying that all guarantor states, including Russia, had to approve the response if Ukraine were attacked. In effect, Moscow could invade Ukraine again and then veto any military intervention on Ukraine's behalf a seemingly absurd condition that Kyiv quickly identified as a dealbreaker.

With that change, a member of the Ukrainian negotiating team said, "we had no interest in continuing the talks. ".

They were very close. It's sad the two sides didn't continue talking after that. In the beginning stages of the war, when the front lines were changing daily, one or the other side was not going to want to negotiate because it thought it was winning. But there's been no excuse since about November, 2022, when this became the 21st century equivalent of "World War I trench warfare. ".

[QUOTE=PaulInZurich;2967964]This is so fucking funny. The guys in the Russian security council don't even wipe their ass unless Putin tells them to. Just a bunch of guys with mentality of slaves. Be careful, if you say otherwise, you will find out if you can fly.

Who said that Ukraine is not even a real country? Right, that was your daddy Vladdy.[/QUOTE]You are most welcome to extend your epithets to elected officials of your own country. You are exactly what we have been thinking of for years.

Ukraine became de facto a separate country, which is what matters most after all. However the legal process has never been followed up according to the letter of law.

Ukraine is part of our common homeland and we will never let you in like we did in the past, no Poles or Lithuanians, no Swedes, no Germans or French and no Americans. You don't belong here.

[QUOTE=PaulInZurich;2967964]Who said that Ukraine is not even a real country? [/QUOTE]Ukraine doesn't have politicians, only different faces of oligarchs. Foreign business paying to play is tolerated.

[QUOTE=Questner;2968302]...Ukraine is part of our common homeland and we will never let you in like we did in the past...[/QUOTE]Pure Russian propaganda -- unchanged since the czars.

[QUOTE=Questner;2968302]You are most welcome to extend your epithets to elected officials of your own country. You are exactly what we have been thinking of for years.

Ukraine became de facto a separate country, which is what matters most after all. However the legal process has never been followed up according to the letter of law.

Ukraine is part of our common homeland and we will never let you in like we did in the past, no Poles or Lithuanians, no Swedes, no Germans or French and no Americans. You don't belong here.[/QUOTE]Ukraine got independant when Putin was only unknown in KGB. Putin stole Crimea and now probably Georgia. He is killing many Russians and at war and fucking others. Wonderful Russia would be better without such crazy shameful dangerous, with more freedom and true informations. Putin was not anymore able to save Al Assad and need shameful North Korea, Iraq and China to help him versus weak Ukraine. Lands of freedom and human rights club helping Putin. Russia is not anymore able to build engines for military ships. Many mixed Ukrainian Russian familles, when they are brothers.

Putin's Chemical Ali is blown up by a scooter.

[QUOTE]A senior Russian general was killed Tuesday by a bomb hidden in a scooter outside his apartment building in Moscow, a day after Ukraines security service leveled criminal charges against him. A Ukrainian official said the service carried out the attack.

Lt. Gen. Igor Kirillov, the chief of the militarys nuclear, biological and chemical protection forces, was killed as he left for his office. Kirillovs assistant also died in the attack.

Kirillov, 54, was under sanctions from several countries, including the U.K. and Canada, for his actions in Moscows war in Ukraine. On Monday, Ukraines Security Service, or SBU, opened a criminal investigation against him, accusing him of directing the use of banned chemical weapons.

An official with the SBU said the agency was behind the attack. The official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to release the information, described Kirillov as a war criminal and an entirely legitimate target.[/QUOTE][URL]https://apnews.com/article/russia-explosion-head-of-nuclear-defense-forces-killed-9656bce946a9f552454df9debe5fbd18[/URL]

Winter is coming to Russia. Finally.

[QUOTE]Russian winter crops are failing at an "unprecedented" rate, sparking fears that food prices could spiral out of control and lead to social unrest. Russian consumers have already experienced significant price hikes for basic food staples over the summer and autumn amid broader economic concerns.

Potato prices have skyrocketed by a staggering 78%, while costs for cabbage, beetroot, and butter have also surged between 27 and 31%. However, the situation looks set to worsen for hard-pressed Russian consumers, with farmers facing a record loss of winter crops.

The Russian analytical centre ProZerno reported that the share of poor and unsprouted winter crops for the 2025 harvest was at 38%. The researchers, who analysed data from the Hydro Meteorological Centre, described the number as "an unprecedentedly huge value", adding the situation had "never been this bad."[/QUOTE][URL]https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/major-vladimir-putin-war-blow-as-russia-faces-unprecedented-economic-setback/ar-AA1w0FiK[/URL]

Quote of the day.

Ukrainians are holding on, even as conditions above (and below) the ground become increasingly grim. Rain, slush, snow, cold, mud, bugs, worms, rats and glide bombs, says non-commissioned officer Ruslan Mokritsky. In the Kursk region, death is always close; it practically holds your hand.

[URL]https://www.economist.com/europe/2024/12/16/ukrainian-troops-celebrate-a-grim-christmas-in-kursk[/URL]

Ukrainian troops celebrate a grim Christmas in Kursk.

The West sees a gloomy picture for the Ukrainian Armed Forces in the Kursk region. Constant bombing, cold, dirt, rats, worms and sovereign dreams of Coca-Cola.

Major of the Ukrainian Armed Forces Ivan Bakrev speaks frankly about Ukraine's problems in the Kursk region: Vladimir Putin's people are tightening the screws, and this was even before North Korean soldiers began to enter the battle.

The Russians have a massive advantage in almost everything. Men, artillery, equipment. And switch between mechanized and infantry attacks to great effect.

Ukraine has already lost about half of the territories it once controlled. The failures began when Kiev replaced elite units with less seasoned ones in late September, and the major believes that this was a mistake.

Now the Russians are trying to cut off the main group from Ukraine by attacking the eastern and western flanks. All units in the Kursk region have gone on the defensive, he says.

The urgency of Russia's counteroffensive appears to be linked to Donald Trump's upcoming inauguration. Vladimir Putin wants the Kursk region to avoid becoming an awkward topic of discussion. Volodymyr Zelensky appears equally determined to keep it as a bargaining chip.

Ukrainians are holding on, even as conditions above (and below) the ground become increasingly grim. Rain, slush, snow, cold, mud, bugs, worms, rats and glide bombs, says non-commissioned officer Ruslan Mokritsky. In the Kursk region, death is always close; it practically holds your hand.

For Major Bakrev, the answer to the question of how he will celebrate Christmas is quite simple: Maybe I'll celebrate with a couple of volleys from our guns.

Officer Mokritsky, who will probably spend the night underground, shrugs. The soldiers on the front lines will celebrate as best they can: Maybe we'll have Coca-Cola.

[QUOTE=Questner;2968302]You are most welcome to extend your epithets to elected officials of your own country.[/QUOTE]Members of the Russian security council are appointed by Putin, not elected. Come to think about it, that is probably what you think a free and fair election is. The dictator appoints somebody and everybody else better shut up or they get to admire the great outdoors in Siberia.

--BUT ONLY WHEN IT SUITS THEM.

Unfortunately, MSM can be wrong, clumsy and inaccurate. Real journalists don't lie on purpose, but they can be lazy or rely on other sources in their research and fact-checking--as a result, failing victims to Russia's disinformation campaigns.

The Economist is wrong claiming that Ukraine has lost "about half" of their initial gains in Kursk Oblast. I mean, no one could've possibly blamed Ukraine if they have, being that 10,000 Ukrainians are holding off a 60,000-stong horde. But from what I'm seeing on Deep State and ISW, the geolocation data confirms Russian gains in 3 villages total (as of 12.16).

Three, that's it. Where does "about half" come from? Does The Economist quote Russian war bloggers / propacondoms now?

Sheesh!

Quote of the day by the Russian President about UKRAINIAN LEADERSHIP:

They will run away someday and will go not to church, but to the beach.

These people are not even atheists. Atheists are people who believe in something. They believe that God does not exist. But this is their faith, their conviction. And these are not atheists, they are simply people without any faith at all, such atheists. After all, they are ethnic Jews, but who has seen them in a synagogue? In my opinion, no one has seen them in a synagogue. It seems that they are not Orthodox, because they do not go to churches either. They are certainly not followers of Islam, because they are unlikely to appear in a mosque. These are people without a family, without a tribe. They do not care about anything that is dear to us and the overwhelming majority of the Ukrainian people. They will run away someday and will go not to church, but to the beach.

Chechnya's self-governing mafia don and Putin's pet Kadyrov shot an anti-aircraft Pantsir-S1 missile at an Azerbaijani passenger flight that was attempting to land at Chechnya's Grozny Airport. Despite the heavy damage and desperate pleas from the pilots, the plane was denied landing at Grozny, as well as 2 other Russian airports in Makhachkala and Mineralnye Vody and was instructed to cross the Caspian Sea and land in Kazakhstan. On approach to Aktau airport in Kazakhstan, the plane crash-landed killing 38 people on board including both pilots.

The Russians were likely hoping that the plane would dive into the sea, making it difficult if not impossible to identify them as the culprits. Some experts allege that Russia had intentionally turned off the plane's navigation system to further complicate any attempts at recovery. Unfortunately for them, the pilots managed to cross the Caspian Sea and reach the airport. As a result, 27 people survived the crash.

In Putin's Russia planes down missiles. What a country!

[B]WATCH: Russian Air Defenses Shoot Down Santa Claus in Christmas Video[/B]

[QUOTE]A Christmas short video spreading on Russia's pro-government Telegram channels depicted the country's air defense system shooting down Santa Claus as he entered Moscow airspace.

The clip surfaced on Russian social media, including Telegram and VK, just hours after Russia was accused of being involved in the crash of an airplane in Kazakhstan, which killed 38 people.[/QUOTE]What a country!

[URL]https://www.msn.com/en-us/public-safety-and-emergencies/general/watch-russian-air-defenses-shoot-down-santa-claus-in-christmas-video/ar-AA1wA76J?ocid=BingNewsSerp[/URL]

[URL]https://youtu.be/NOVni9TaF4s[/URL]

[QUOTE=Xpartan;2971058]Chechnya's self-governing mafia don and Putin's pet Kadyrov shot an anti-aircraft Pantsir-S1 missile at an Azerbaijani passenger flight that was attempting to land at Chechnya's Grozny Airport. Despite the heavy damage and desperate pleas from the pilots, the plane was denied landing at Grozny, as well as 2 other Russian airports in Makhachkala and Mineralnye Vody and was instructed to cross the Caspian Sea and land in Kazakhstan. On approach to Aktau airport in Kazakhstan, the plane crash-landed killing 38 people on board including both pilots.

The Russians were likely hoping that the plane would dive into the sea, making it difficult if not impossible to identify them as the culprits. Some experts allege that Russia had intentionally turned off the plane's navigation system to further complicate any attempts at recovery. Unfortunately for them, the pilots managed to cross the Caspian Sea and reach the airport. As a result, 27 people survived the crash.

In Putin's Russia planes down missiles. What a country![/QUOTE]'Some Experts'. Yeah.

[QUOTE=Xpartan;2971058]Chechnya's self-governing mafia don and Putin's pet Kadyrov shot an anti-aircraft Pantsir-S1 missile at an Azerbaijani passenger flight that was attempting to land at Chechnya's Grozny Airport. Despite the heavy damage and desperate pleas from the pilots, the plane was denied landing at Grozny, as well as 2 other Russian airports in Makhachkala and Mineralnye Vody and was instructed to cross the Caspian Sea and land in Kazakhstan. On approach to Aktau airport in Kazakhstan, the plane crash-landed killing 38 people on board including both pilots.

The Russians were likely hoping that the plane would dive into the sea, making it difficult if not impossible to identify them as the culprits. Some experts allege that Russia had intentionally turned off the plane's navigation system to further complicate any attempts at recovery. Unfortunately for them, the pilots managed to cross the Caspian Sea and reach the airport. As a result, 27 people survived the crash.

In Putin's Russia planes down missiles. What a country![/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2971436]'Some Experts'. Yeah.[/QUOTE]While it would be more preferable to get this from a few world-reknowned experts (and I hope we will at some point), but honestly, what would it change? Your guilt in the MH17 downing was established by two European courts well beyond reasonable doubt, with the help of the most prominent aviation and security experts in the world, yet you keep denying. I mean, seriously, for a country that looks like a lying duck, swims like a lying duck, squawks like a lying duck and lies like a lying duck, "some experts" will always be a more trustworthy source compared to [U]anything[/U] coming out of your mouths.

[QUOTE]However, new reports claim that Russia denied the plane an emergency landing, despite it suffering critical damage and the pilots repeated pleas, at three different airports.

The Azeri Times also claims that Russia then tampered with the planes GPS system, forcing the pilot to divert the plane over the Caspian Sea.

The outlet says this was a deliberate attempt to make the plane crash in water to conceal any evidence of an attack.

Earlier, aviation analysts said images from the crash site point to damage from an air defence system, while multiple sources have told the Reuters news agency the same.[/QUOTE][URL]https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/russia-denied-emergency-landing-azerbaijan-airlines-plane-jammed-gps-crash/[/URL]

[QUOTE=Xpartan;2971614]While it would be more preferable to get this from a few world-reknowned experts (and I hope we will at some point), but honestly, what would it change? Your guilt in the MH17 downing was established by two European courts well beyond reasonable doubt, with the help of the most prominent aviation and security experts in the world, yet you keep denying. I mean, seriously, for a country that looks like a lying duck, swims like a lying duck, squawks like a lying duck and lies like a lying duck, "some experts" will always be a more trustworthy source compared to [U]anything[/U] coming out of your mouths.

[URL]https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/russia-denied-emergency-landing-azerbaijan-airlines-plane-jammed-gps-crash/[/URL][/QUOTE]You are a *LOL dude*. How many of you inside your head?

They flew over one specific area that was being pounded by UA drones.

RU anti-air was in full throttle.

The anti-air shot was design for drones, not an airplane; this, explaining low impacts.

I will not ask you what incentive RU had to shut down this airplane, you sound a bit off.

P.S. - I's like you to study US-UA from 2010, US Biolabs P3-P4, US Biofarms biological warfare, UA and its 150+ pharmaceutical manufacturers, 1 BL USAID going to a UA "army general" for the build of US cruise missiles launch pads, BURISMA HOLDING seneca-rosemont, Devon Archer, who worked with Hunter Biden at Rosemont Seneca partners, which is half owned by Rosemont Capital, a private equity firm founded by Archer and Christopher Heinz, Igor Pasternak sponsoring Schiff, Pelosi, these two as well as Kerry, Biden, Romney ++ have stakes in energy in Ukraine taxing RU gas going to Germany, the firing of UA prosecutor general Viktor Shokin, Kivi printemps 2014 FBI International / CIA / Marines (Poland based) .

Otherwise, would you please STFUP or, move to the front!?

As quoted from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs:

On negotiations to resolve the Ukrainian conflict:

We have always been and remain ready for negotiations. I would like to particularly emphasize that we can only talk about reliable, legally binding agreements that should eliminate the root causes of the conflict and which should include a mechanism to make it impossible to violate them.

On Trump's Ukraine Peace Initiative:

Judging by numerous leaks and Donald Trump's interview with Time magazine on December 12, he is talking about freezing military actions along the line of combat contact and transferring further responsibility for the confrontation with Russia to the Europeans. Of course, we are not satisfied with the proposals made by representatives of the president-elect's team to postpone Ukraine's membership in NATO for 20 years, as well as to introduce a peacekeeping contingent of British and European forces into Ukraine.

About the Ukrainian peace summit:

In October, meetings were held in preparation for the second peace summit. They want to invite Russia to it, as we understand, in order to present us with some kind of ultimatum. I have explained many times that we are not going to take part in the peace summit, even if we receive an invitation.

Ensuring Ukraine's non-aligned status remains the goal of the special military operation (SMO), which will be achieved.

[QUOTE=Haokool;2971710]You are a *LOL dude*. How many of you inside your head?

They flew over one specific area that was being pounded by UA drones.

RU anti-air was in full throttle.

The anti-air shot was design for drones, not an airplane; this, explaining low impacts.

I will not ask you what incentive RU had to shut down this airplane, you sound a bit off.

P.S. - I's like you to study US-UA from 2010, US Biolabs P3-P4, US Biofarms biological warfare, UA and its 150+ pharmaceutical manufacturers, 1 BL USAID going to a UA "army general" for the build of US cruise missiles launch pads, BURISMA HOLDING seneca-rosemont, Devon Archer, who worked with Hunter Biden at Rosemont Seneca partners, which is half owned by Rosemont Capital, a private equity firm founded by Archer and Christopher Heinz, Igor Pasternak sponsoring Schiff, Pelosi, these two as well as Kerry, Biden, Romney ++ have stakes in energy in Ukraine taxing RU gas going to Germany, the firing of UA prosecutor general Viktor Shokin, Kivi printemps 2014 FBI International / CIA / Marines (Poland based) .

Otherwise, would you please STFUP or, move to the front!?[/QUOTE]Thank you, Igor#2 for your exemplary illustration of Putin's brilliant propaganda mix-it-all-up cocktail technics. I hope your information-war efforts will be noted by your superiors, so that you can replace Igor#1 on this uber-important forum. Quite honestly, your colleague here has become too boring and predictable, and it's about time they invest in some fresh blood. Welcome!

[QUOTE=Questner;2971820]...We have always been and remain ready for negotiations. I would like to particularly emphasize that we can only talk about reliable, legally binding agreements that should eliminate the root causes of the conflict and which should include a mechanism to make it impossible to violate them...
[/QUOTE]This forum has been too quiet. I thought maybe the disinformation trolls had finally given up, but I guess not. Irony is not dead.

A pre-New Year exchange of prisoners of war took place between Russia and Ukraine on a 150-to-150 basis.

Traditionally, the exchange was mediated by the UAE; the returned Russian servicemen are currently in the Republic of Belarus, from where they will be delivered home.

The prisoner exchange was the 11th in 2024. A total of 189 people returned to Ukraine as reported by Ukrainian sources.

Wish the next year brings a peace treaty. I can't reconcile the positions of the parties. Unless the US by some reason abandons the Ukrainian project in pursuit of a more profitable one I remain pessimistic.

Happy New Year 2025!

[QUOTE=Questner;2972058]A pre-New Year exchange of prisoners of war took place between Russia and Ukraine on a 150-to-150 basis.

Traditionally, the exchange was mediated by the UAE; the returned Russian servicemen are currently in the Republic of Belarus, from where they will be delivered home.

The prisoner exchange was the 11th in 2024. A total of 189 people returned to Ukraine as reported by Ukrainian sources.

Wish the next year brings a peace treaty. I can't reconcile the positions of the parties. Unless the US by some reason abandons the Ukrainian project in pursuit of a more profitable one I remain pessimistic.

Happy New Year 2025![/QUOTE]That's good news! I hope it is indeed a start that will lead to a peace treaty. The most "profitable" pursuit for every party involved, including the USA, would be to help bring an end to the war, and I think the incoming US administration (i.e. Trump) realizes that.

The Russians took Kurakhove.

Meanwhile, the illegal President of Ukraine will probably lower the conscription age to 18.

Hope Trump puts an end to this shit ASAP but I am not 100% hopeful considering the picks in his cabinet.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2972431]The Russians took Kurakhove.

Meanwhile, the illegal President of Ukraine will probably lower the conscription age to 18.

Hope Trump puts an end to this shit ASAP but I am not 100% hopeful considering the picks in his cabinet.[/QUOTE]Since when was the wants of the commie Russian "President" (they don't have real elections there) was in the interests of America?

In Russia no prognosis has been made for 2025, only plans. Here below in a quote a prognosis from Ukraine for 2025:

The atmosphere in which Ukraine is celebrating the new year 2025 is strikingly different from the situation in both December 2022 and December 2023.

December 2022 was a time when the Ukrainian Armed Forces had just recently achieved major successes – Kherson and almost the entire Kharkiv region were liberated. The country lived in anticipation of the coming counteroffensive and imminent victory.

December 2023 was marked by disappointment, fatigue, anxiety and uncertainty. The counteroffensive had failed, the Russian army had seized the initiative at the front. Hopes for turmoil and destabilization in Russia had also gone up in smoke with the failure of Prigozhin's rebellion. It was becoming clear that there would be no quick victory, the war was dragging on, its outcome was unclear, and the casualties could be very high.

The year 2024 has brought even more difficulties and problems to Ukraine. However, this December is marked by new hope. But hope no longer for victory by reaching the 1991 borders (Zelensky has already acknowledged the impossibility of achieving this by military means), but for a quick end to the war and peace. It appeared after Trump's victory in the US presidential election. Since he has repeatedly repeated (and repeats) that he intends to end the war as soon as possible.

Will this work out? This is the main question that we will discuss today in our forecast for the coming year.

1. The situation at the front: Russia has seized the initiative and the Kursk phenomenon:

The situation at the front in 2024 was characterized by the transfer of the initiative to Russia. The Russian army advanced all year along almost the entire front line. The exception was the Kursk region. However, even there the breakthrough of the Ukrainian Armed Forces was stopped quite quickly, did not reach the supposed main goal (the Kursk NPP) and now the Russians are gradually recapturing the territory.

Neither before nor after were the Ukrainian Armed Forces able to repeat the Kursk breakthrough, although they tried (they attacked the Belgorod region, and the Bryansk region, as well as the Kursk region in other places, but without success).

In other areas, the Russians made progress, accelerated, among other things, by the transfer of some of the most combat-ready units of the Ukrainian Armed Forces to the Kursk region.

The most significant advance was in the Pokrovsk-Kurakhov area, where the Russian army conducted its strategic operation to push the front line away from Donetsk and Mariupol with counterattacks from the north and south. We wrote back in early August that this was exactly the plan the Russians had in this direction, and our forecast came true almost entirely.

The Pokrovsk-Kurakhovo operation of Russian troops is also the creation of a bridgehead for a further offensive on the Dnieper and Zaporozhye, entering the rear of the main lines of defense of the Ukrainian Armed Forces, located on the southern front along the line "Vremyevsk salient. Gulyaipole - Orekhov. Kamenskoye". It is unknown, however, whether the Russian army has enough reserves for such a large-scale offensive, but a potential strike by the Russian Armed Forces from Kurakhovo, Pokrovsk, Selidovo and Velyka Novoselovka in the direction of Zaporozhye and the Dnieper is currently the greatest threat to the Ukrainian army.

2. Reasons for Russia's success:

There are three main reasons for the success of Russians.

The first is the improvement in the quality of combat management and combat capability of Russian troops, their advantage in weapons (primarily gliding bombs), and also the advantage in drones that began to appear by the end of the year.

The second is the increase in the number of Russian troops in Ukraine while the number of the Ukrainian Armed Forces is decreasing. This point is very important, as it makes senseless numerous discussions about the ratio of losses, the rate of mobilization, etc. The dynamics of the number of troops on the battlefield is an integrated indicator that takes into account all the above variables. And the fact that there are more Russians at the front, and fewer Ukrainians, since the rate of mobilization does not cover the current losses of the Ukrainian Armed Forces, is confirmed both officially and unofficially by both sides.

The third is the decline in discipline and morale of the Ukrainian troops due to unclear prospects for a protracted war, the lack of major victories, and the death of a large number of ideological and motivated volunteers and their replacement by low-motivated "busified" recruits. Hence the increase in the number of AWOLs and cases of refusal to carry out orders in the ranks of the Armed Forces of Ukraine (we wrote about this in more detail here).

3. The main indicators of the situation at the front:

There are two opposing assessments regarding the future prospects. According to one, the Ukrainian army is moving towards rapid collapse, depletion of reserves and collapse of defense. According to the second, nothing critical is happening for the Ukrainian Armed Forces, the Ukrainian army is accumulating reserves (moreover, a number of Russian military bloggers believe that Ukraine may use them for an offensive in the near future), and the Russian Federation's reserves are quickly depleted and, soon, the Russian offensive will begin to stall and stop.

It is impossible to say exactly which of these versions is correct due to a lack of information.

However, it is possible to identify several indicators that will indicate that the Ukrainian Armed Forces are critically losing their combat capability and their reserves are exhausted.

The first is the expulsion of Ukrainian troops from the Kursk region, control over the bridgehead in which is of great political importance to the Ukrainian authorities, and if there are not enough forces to hold it, this will be evidence that the Ukrainian Armed Forces have a very serious shortage of reserves even for priority areas.

The second is the breakthrough of Russian troops to Kharkov, to stop the Russian advance to which serious forces of Ukrainian troops were sent in the spring and summer of this year, and if they are unable to hold the defense, this will also be evidence of the depletion of reserves.

Third – Dnieper and Zaporozhye. A breakthrough to them by Russian troops will mean a disaster for the logistics of the Ukrainian Armed Forces on the entire southern front and a significant part of the eastern one. And if the Ukrainian Armed Forces do not have enough reserves to protect this direction, this means that events will develop according to the worst-case scenario for the Ukrainian Armed Forces.

Fourth – the creation by the Russians of a bridgehead on the right bank of the Dnieper – in the Kherson area and / or in the Dnieper and Zaporozhye area (if the Russian Federation is able to capture these cities). This will create a potential threat of an offensive by the Russian army in the direction of Transnistria, cutting off Ukraine from the sea. If the Ukrainian Armed Forces are unable to prevent it, this will be evidence of a critical decline in the combat capability of the Ukrainian troops.

Fifth, the breakthrough of Russian troops to Kyiv, which will create the threat of a complete military defeat of Ukraine.

But none of this is happening yet.

The Ukrainian army is retreating with fighting in the Donetsk region, but the front is not collapsing, the combat capability and controllability of the Ukrainian troops is maintained, critical supply lines of the Ukrainian Armed Forces have not been cut off, and Russian troops have not approached the largest Ukrainian cities.

Of course, the problems that the Ukrainian Armed Forces have have a cumulative effect and when there are too many of them, the front may collapse "in one moment". But we also cannot rule out another option, that the Russian army will sooner or later exhaust its reserves in the offensive and stop before reaching strategically important lines.

4. Ukraine's Strategy for 2025 with Trump Adjustments:

The latter assumption underlies Kyiv's basic war strategy.

The Ukrainian military-political leadership assumes that the Russian army will soon exhaust its offensive potential, without advancing anywhere except Donbass, Ukraine will accumulate forces, make a breakthrough in the creation of robotic systems, as well as long-range missiles that can reach Moscow, and somehow solve the problems with replenishing the army (for example, by lowering the age of mobilization to 18 years). After which it will be able to seize the initiative at the front.

Russia, as Kyiv believes, will be forced to declare mobilization in such a situation, which, according to the calculations of the Ukrainian authorities, should lead to internal upheavals in the Russian Federation. Plus, as before, Kiev has hope for the growth of Russia's socio-economic problems due to the effect of sanctions, as well as the growth of interethnic and interreligious contradictions within the Russian Federation. First of all, between Russians and Muslims.

Based on this, the Ukrainian authorities, as well as the Western "war party", are against the earliest possible end to the war along the front line, believing that time is on the side of Ukraine's victory, which, however, is no longer understood as reaching the 1991 borders (although this goal is not completely removed as a maximum task), but rather forcing the Russian Federation to agree to Ukraine's membership in NATO and the presence of Western troops on Ukrainian territory. Kiev understands that Moscow will not agree to such conditions now, and therefore the Ukrainian authorities are against negotiations at this stage (as Yermak directly states). But they believe that in the future the Kremlin's positions on the front will weaken and it will be forced to accept Ukraine's conditions (moreover, rumors are spreading that in the near future, in order to prove the correctness of this thesis, the Ukrainian Armed Forces will attempt an offensive on one of the sections of the front).

But this is an assessment by the Ukrainian authorities, which, naturally, may be fundamentally wrong, just as it turned out to be wrong in 2023, when there were expectations of a quick victory after the counteroffensive, or in 2022, when everyone expected the Russian economy to collapse under the weight of sanctions.

In addition, not everyone inside Ukraine believes that the Ukrainian government's strategy is correct. Both in military and political circles, the opinion is increasingly widespread that betting on a "long war" is primarily destructive for Ukraine itself, since it is being exhausted much faster than Russia. And time is working against Kyiv, especially given the political turbulence in the West and the unclear prospects for further aid to Ukraine. According to this point of view, if there is an opportunity to end the war in the near future, it should be ended along the front line and even without guarantees of joining NATO. Because the conditions of peace could be much worse for Ukraine in the future.

But, let us repeat, the position of the Ukrainian authorities is different. Bankova believes that time is on Ukraine's side, and therefore there is no need to negotiate now.

Therefore, many actions of the Ukrainian government and the Western "war party" (we will talk about it in more detail a little later) are aimed at disrupting or making negotiations with Russia as difficult as possible. Hence the permission to strike with long-range missiles, and the attempt to insist on inviting Ukraine to NATO, and the murders of high-ranking Russian officials in Moscow, and much more.

However, it is important to note that Kyiv can only adhere to such a strategy as long as the main position in the US and the West is that of the "war party. ".

If, despite all the efforts of the "hawks", the concept is approved in Washington that the war must be ended as quickly as possible along the front line or on other compromise terms with Russia (and this is what Trump is currently promoting), then Kyiv will not be able to resist it and will be forced to submit to the new American strategy, since it will not be able to continue the war without the support of the West.

And then everything will depend on whether the US can reach an agreement with the Russian Federation on the conditions for ending the war.

The question of how, when and under what conditions the war will end is also decisive for the issues of Ukraine's domestic politics – will there be elections, will Zelensky be able to stay in power.

5. Russia's first possible strategy is to force Ukraine and the West to Putin's conditions:

If the strategy of the Ukrainian government is, in general, clear ("keep fighting, but if Washington says not to fight, then negotiate" then there are two versions regarding Russia's strategy.

The first of them comes from a literal understanding of the Kremlin's official statements about the immutability of Putin's June conditions. The transfer of the entire territory of four regions to the Russian Federation's control, the lifting of sanctions, the limitation of the number and armament of the Ukrainian Armed Forces, "denazification" in Ukraine's domestic policy, the lifting of sanctions, the conclusion of a full-fledged peace treaty with the fixation of new borders as internationally recognized. And without fulfilling all these requirements, as well as without the withdrawal of Ukrainian troops from the Kursk region, Putin will not stop the war. Also, in the expert circles near the Kremlin, there is an assumption that one of Putin's main goals is the "reboot" of Ukrainian statehood, so as not to have problems with Kiev in the future. Political scientists close to the Russian government are publishing scenarios according to which Ukraine, after the end of the war, will be divided into two parts in the territories remaining under Kyiv's control. Into central Ukraine. A formally independent state loyal and controlled by Moscow, and into western Ukraine, where it is supposed to oust anti-Russian "nationalist elements". Plus, there is the removal from power of Zelensky, whose "illegitimacy" is constantly discussed in Moscow.

It should be noted that Ukraine can accept these conditions only in three cases.

The first is if the West forces it to do so through the most severe pressure and threats.

Secondly, if the Ukrainian Armed Forces are completely defeated or find themselves on the brink of imminent defeat.

Thirdly, if Russia can "turn off" Ukrainian energy for a long time and thereby make the functioning of the economy and, in general, the life of people on the territory of Ukraine impossible while the war is ongoing.

There are no signs yet of the West's readiness to put pressure on Kyiv to fulfill Putin's demands. Although even if such coercion were to follow, it is far from guaranteed that the Ukrainian authorities would humbly agree to fulfill all the demands, rather than continue to resist. Because it is one thing to comply with Western pressure to stop the war along the front line (especially since many in Ukraine are also in favor of this). And it is quite another to actually agree to hand over control of the entire country or most of it to Russia.

The second and third conditions have also not been realized and it is not a fact that they can be realized in the foreseeable future.

However, the Kremlin may believe that time is on its side, and therefore there is no need to rush to end the war and make any compromises with Trump and Ukraine, since the situation at the front will continue to worsen for the Ukrainian Armed Forces, energy will gradually be destroyed, and therefore, sooner or later, Ukraine and the West will be forced to comply with Putin's conditions. Moreover, perhaps even tougher ones, in comparison with the June version.

In general, this is the scenario of "long will", which Arestovich often likes to talk about as Putin's main "secret weapon" - to go year after year, despite the sacrifices and difficulties, to the intended goal. As it happened, in its time, with Chechnya. When from the beginning of the Second Chechen War to the moment of its final "pacification" and subordination, 6-7 years passed.

6. Russia's second possible strategy is to stop the war along the front lines:

The second point of view states that the Kremlin is much more cautious in assessing the prospects of the Russian Federation in a long war, and understands the great risks it carries, including the need to implement measures that the Russian authorities do not want to take (for example, mobilization). Therefore, according to this version, Putin is actually set on a speedy and compromise end to the war. Stopping the war along the front line (provided that Ukrainian troops are withdrawn from the Kursk region), and a neutral status for Ukraine. Plus, the fulfillment of some other conditions (for example, the lifting of sanctions, some changes in Ukraine's domestic policy).

Western media, citing sources, write from time to time that Russia's position may be more flexible than officially stated. Moscow's rather restrained reaction to Western long-range strikes on Russia also points to this. A number of observers perceive this as Moscow's desire to take a break until Trump comes to power and not close the door on the possibility of reaching an agreement with him.

In general, it is obvious that there are different points of view in the Russian elites on the issue of the further continuation of the war and the attitude towards the prospect of its quickest stop. Some are in favor of a war to a victorious end. Others consider the war in Ukraine a grand trap that Russia has fallen into. And if it is possible to get out of it relatively painlessly and on favorable terms for the Russian Federation (fixing the gains in Ukraine and its neutral status), then this will already be a grand Russian victory.

And the outcome of the negotiations, if they are initiated by Trump, will largely depend on the position that the Russian Federation takes.

Perhaps the Kremlin really believes that time is on its side and will therefore refuse to compromise, continuing the war. And here the whole question is how soberly the Russian authorities assess the prospects at the front, in the economy and in terms of maintaining stability within the country.

If the assessment of the prospects for the imminent collapse of the Ukrainian Armed Forces' defense and the strength of the Russian economy turns out to be wrong, this could have far-reaching negative consequences for Russia. Including causing a deterioration in Moscow's position in the world, especially among the countries of the global south (because the Russian Federation will look like a state that, under some pretexts incomprehensible to the international community, refused the offer to end the war, essentially taking responsibility for further bloodshed, although China has long been calling for the war to end), the positions of those forces in the West that advocate compromises with Moscow will sharply weaken, since the Kremlin will show that it is not ready to compromise at all. This could also cause strong internal tension in Russian society due to the understanding that the war will last a long time and the authorities do not want to stop it. This tension will be especially aggravated if a new wave of mobilization has to be declared.

However, let us repeat, in order for the Kremlin to accept or reject peace proposals, these peace proposals must come. Come from Trump. And therefore, it is his position that will be decisive.

7. Trump's Decisive Choice:

Despite repeated statements by Trump and his associates about their intention to end the war in Ukraine in a short time, this option is far from certain.

It is not even predetermined that Trump will put forward peace proposals that would be at all acceptable to the Russian Federation as at least a start for a conversation.

The policy of the West, and the United States in particular, has been determined in the last three years by the "war party", which believes that the war in Ukraine is a grand trap for Moscow and a unique opportunity to weaken and exhaust Russia.

And therefore this "party" is categorically against stopping the war in the near future, since this will nullify all previous efforts and, in its understanding, will allow Putin to slip out of the trap into which he has been drawn for many years. And even to slip out on de facto "victorious" terms, keeping the captured territories and removing the question of Ukraine's entry into NATO.

As arguments for continuing the war, this "party" uses the above-mentioned theses about the imminent "collapse of the Russian Federation" under the weight of military and domestic problems, convincing Trump not to offer Putin compromise options for peace, but to continue fighting. In particular, there are many supporters of this point of view within the Republicans. However, the "war party" is very strong at almost all levels of Western policy management. It was this party that laid the strategic line of action for the West in relation to Ukraine and Russia. And it will be extremely difficult for Trump to reverse this course.

Although it is possible.

The arguments of the "party of peace" are also well known. Time is not working for Ukraine, conditions will be even worse. The West itself is in a systemic crisis caused by deindustrialization, the decline in competitiveness of its economy, and the huge emission of dollars and euros. In such conditions, it is extremely problematic to continue increasing military spending by getting involved in a war, since it is fraught with either hyperinflation or a sharp reduction in social spending and the actual dismantling of the welfare state in the West (and along with this, the dismantling of democracy, since, understandably, no one will vote for such changes in the elections).

Finally, the threat of nuclear war hangs like the sword of Damocles. All this provides arguments to those forces in the West that call for a speedy ceasefire in Ukraine.

In addition, the most important factor that plays against the "war party" in the West is the failure of its strategy for the war in Ukraine. Initially, it assumed that Western sanctions would destroy the Russian economy and Putin's regime would quickly collapse. After this did not happen, the thesis began to be promoted that the Russian army was extremely weak and would be defeated by the Ukrainian Armed Forces, and, in parallel, the theory was promoted that in Russia, against the backdrop of defeats, unrest would inevitably begin.

However, these two theses were also nullified in 2023, when the counteroffensive of the Ukrainian Armed Forces ended in failure, and Prigozhin's mutiny failed. Therefore, when the "war party" now promotes the theme that "we need to wait a little longer and Russia is about to collapse", trust in this in the West has been seriously undermined. And the proposals of some representatives of the "war party" to turn the situation around by sending European troops to Ukraine or through other forms of deeper NATO involvement in the war only scare off both Western elites and societies, setting them in favor of a speedy end to the war in order to avoid such a prospect. In general, the West is experiencing disappointment, fatigue, anxiety, as well as a decline in belligerence after the collapse of previous strategies on Ukraine and Russia. And this is also the most important factor that works in favor of the "peace party".

Moreover, the position of the "war party" was based on a deep contradiction from the very beginning. Namely, the desire, on the one hand, to harshly punish Russia for invading Ukraine with fatal consequences for Putin's government. On the other hand, the unwillingness to enter into a direct war with it due to the fear of a nuclear conflict and the bet that the tasks would be carried out by the Ukrainian Armed Forces alone. Although the difference in potential between Ukraine and Russia made such a bet, to put it mildly, very risky. Moreover, as it turned out during the war, the West was afraid to bring Russia even to the brink of defeat, due to the same threat of a nuclear war. Western media have repeatedly written that back in the fall of 2022, Washington came to the conclusion that if the Russian authorities consider that they are facing military defeat, they can use nuclear weapons. And the desire to prevent this largely determined Washington's behavior regarding the war in Ukraine. Including, regarding assistance to Kyiv, which was provided to the extent that it allowed to prevent the collapse of the front. But in order not to cross the line beyond which a landslide escalation could begin (the so-called strategy of "war on slow fire".

As for the statements about the threat of an attack by the Russian Federation on NATO countries, few people in the West believe that, having fought for weeks and months for one village in Donbas, the Russian army is ready to attack NATO countries that are totally superior to the Russian Federation in military terms. At least as long as the US is a member of NATO.

8. Showdowns within the Republican Party:

The situation within the US Republican Party will play a very important role in the course of events.

There is already a struggle between the "old guard" that generally wants to continue the previous course on Ukraine and elsewhere. And Trump's team, including Elon Musk and others, who want to sharply reshuffle the elite and carry out a radical reform of the state apparatus. And also, what is important, to redistribute financial flows, taking money from traditional military budget contractors like Lockheed Martin, Raytheon, Boeing and their lobbyists (the main ones of which are the same "old guard" of the Republican Party), and transferring it to a new crop of high-tech companies.

This group also has a completely different view than the establishment on the war in Ukraine and on relations with Russia. This struggle will determine America's course, and therefore the situation in the world.

9. The Impact of Trump's Relations with China and Europe:

It will also be of great importance how Trump builds relations with Europe and China. Confrontational notes are heard from Washington in both directions. And if Trump really gets into a clinch with the Europeans and the Chinese, then this could increase the importance of relations with the Russian Federation for both the EU and China and, consequently, seriously change the attitude of the Europeans to the topic of supporting Kyiv. And China. To the topic of supporting Russia in the war. Moreover, in both directions. Not in favor of Ukraine.

If the confrontation between the US and the EU results in a rupture of their military-political ties and the actual withdrawal of America from NATO, then this will radically change the entire security situation in Europe, giving Russia and China the opportunity to start their game in the European direction, pulling a significant part of the EU countries to their side.

However, the break between the US and Europe is far from predetermined. It is advantageous for the Americans to maintain influence on the EU and on this basis they can come to compromises on various contentious issues.

10. Will Trump and Putin "divide the world"?

One can often come across the point of view that the main issue in the negotiations between the US and Russia will not even be Ukraine, but a new security system in Europe or even the "distribution of zones of influence in the world", as well as issues of Russia's relations with China (according to the widespread version, Trump wants to pull Moscow away from Beijing).

This is certainly an important point that can affect a lot.

On the one hand, such "mega-exchanges" seem unrealistic.

Firstly, Ukraine itself is not of such serious interest to the US that it would enter into any global "deals" with the Russian Federation for its sake. By and large, none of the scenarios for the development of events in Ukraine (including the complete defeat of the Ukrainian Armed Forces and the capitulation of Kyiv) are critically bad for Washington. After all, the Americans experienced the loss of Afghanistan quite painlessly. Ukraine is not Mexico or Canada, the situation in which directly affects the US. And not even the Middle East, the situation in which is important for America, since the price of oil is determined there. No global processes or markets critically depend on the situation in Ukraine.

Secondly, as for Trump's attempts to pull Russia away from China, the US will not be able to offer Moscow anything in return. Trump himself has set his sights on the European energy market, which could replace the Chinese market for the Russians, demanding that the Europeans buy more American oil and gas.

On the other hand, American media have often written that there has been a behind-the-scenes dialogue between Trump and Putin for a long time.

In addition, Trump's openly demonstrated desire to ease America's "burden" on security in Europe (in order to shift more attention to China), as well as to minimize the likelihood of a direct US war with Russia (due to the threat of it escalating into a nuclear war) may prompt the new administration in Washington to certain agreements with Putin. For example, on freezing NATO expansion to the east and curtailing US activity in the post-Soviet space.

But, let us repeat, all these agreements come down to the question of the price that each side can set for its willingness to meet each other halfway.

11. Scenarios-2025. Inertia or breakthrough:

When analyzing the possible scenarios under which events may develop, it is necessary to distinguish between two basic options.

First, the war will continue in its current format and the situation on the front will not change fundamentally (the Russians will slowly advance, but without strategic breakthroughs, and perhaps even stop over time).

The second is that the situation at the front will change dramatically in favor of Ukraine or Russia. This is possible either in the event of the beginning of internal processes of collapse of the state apparatus and the army of one of the warring countries. Or in the event that one of the armies makes a sharp leap in combat technologies, and its opponent does not keep up with it. For example, in terms of the use of robotic systems and artificial intelligence. However, the experience of the previous almost three years of war shows that neither side, even if it broke ahead at some point in terms of innovation, can hold the palm for a long time, since the opponent very quickly adopts know-how. This is explained by the approximate equality of potentials. The West provides assistance to Ukraine. And indirectly, China, the technological and industrial world champion, provides assistance to Russia. In addition, both Ukraine and the Russian Federation are actively developing their own military technologies and production.

If the situation on the front changes dramatically, it will bring one of the parties (in whose favor it has changed) closer to realizing its maximum objectives. For Russia, this is the fulfillment of Putin's June conditions (possibly in an even more stringent format) and the "reset" of the Ukrainian state. For Kyiv, this is the consent of the Russian Federation to Ukraine's membership in NATO and the return of at least part of the captured territories.

12. Scenarios-2025. The Great Compromise Option:

If the war continues more or less in its current format (inertial scenario), then there are two options.

The first is ending the war on compromise terms. In this case, the most realistic scenario is "armed neutrality" of Ukraine. That is, the war stops along the front line, Ukraine does not join NATO (but joins the European Union), and foreign troops are not brought into the country. But at the same time, the Ukrainian Armed Forces are not reduced. The absence of restrictions for the Ukrainian Armed Forces is, in fact, the main "red line" for Ukraine and the only real guarantee that the Russian Federation will not attack again (in conditions when the West is not ready to accept Ukraine into NATO, or send its troops as peacekeepers without Moscow's consent, or assume any obligations that imply entering a war against the Russian Federation in the event of its new invasion of Ukraine). Other conditions. Domestic policy issues (language, church), sanctions against the Russian Federation, etc. - can be discussed. As well as the form of fixing the agreements. A truce or a full-fledged peace treaty (Russia demands the conclusion of the latter, and although Ukraine de facto opposes it, this option is not 100% excluded, since it gives both parties additional guarantees that the war will not resume in the near future, and the "suspended" post-war situation is much more dangerous for Ukraine than for Russia, since few will invest money in the country, knowing that a new war with its largest neighbor can start at any moment). As for the bridgehead in the Kursk region, then, under any version of compromise peace agreements, Ukraine will most likely have to leave it. They often talk about Kyiv's desire to exchange this bridgehead for some part of the Ukrainian territories captured by Russia (for example, Energodar and Zaporizhzhya NPP), but given the current situation on the front, this is unrealistic. The bridgehead in the Kursk region is small. Russia has already returned part of it and the Russian army has the military capabilities to take it completely. It is only a question of time. Therefore, Putin is unlikely to agree to exchange for something that he can get back without any agreements.

As for relations between Ukraine and Russia after the end of the war, it is now widely believed that they will be chronically hostile. Like between South and North Korea after the Korean War. However, the experience of Georgia, which also fought with the Russian Federation and lost territory, and has now effectively restored relations with Moscow, shows that there may be different options. Although it took a lot of time for this. 16 years have passed since the 2008 war in Georgia.

13. Scenario 2025: Long War and Risks for Ukraine:

If we imagine that the peace talks will not end in anything (or even begin), while there will be no fundamental changes on the front in favor of one of the parties, and Western aid to Ukraine will continue in one volume or another (the option in which both the US and Europe immediately and completely stop supporting Ukraine is unrealistic), then the war will become "long-term".

Ukraine will be forced to lower the age of mobilization. Russia will most likely announce a new wave of mobilization. Casualties will increase, and the risks of a long war for both sides are enormous.

First of all, of course, they are huge for Ukraine. The mobilization potential is exhausted, as is the resilience of society and the army. Which is already visible now through mass evasion of service, escapes abroad and an increase in the number of AWOLs. The longer the war goes on, the stronger the apathy, the more people leave the country, the more the infrastructure is destroyed, the more cities are turned into ruins, the less habitable the country becomes, the deeper the hole of demographic and social catastrophe.

There is also a big question whether Ukraine can strategically win the war at all, since Russia, possessing nuclear weapons, can use them if it finds itself on the brink of defeat.

The biggest risk for Ukraine is its dependence on foreign support. The West is now entering a state of political turbulence, which is superimposed on economic difficulties. It is obvious that the global West will change. The situation both within the US and within the EU, as well as in relations between America and Europe, is in a zone of extreme uncertainty.

And no one can say whether, under these conditions, support for Ukraine will be maintained in the long term.

There are constant calls from the Trump camp to cut or stop aid to Kyiv. And if this happens while the war continues, it will be the worst-case scenario for Ukraine.

Also worth noting is Trump's expansionist rhetoric regarding claims to Greenland and the Panama Canal.

The basis of Ukraine's position in the current war is the principle of inviolability of borders and territorial integrity. However, if this principle begins to be violated everywhere (and especially if the US sets an example in this), and constant interventions and annexations of territories become a common occurrence, then the situation with the Russian Federation's invasion of Ukraine and the annexation of part of its territory will become just one of many cases, which will significantly weaken attention to it and, accordingly, may affect the West's readiness to continue supporting Ukraine and putting pressure on Russia with sanctions. Not to mention the attitude of other countries of the world to the war.

Moreover, the question will be heard ever louder: if the US, guided by its own understanding of its national interests, wants to seize Greenland or the territory of the Panama Canal, then why can't Russia do the same with respect to Ukraine?

For Kyiv, in the current war, such a possible change in the global agenda is a potential threat of enormous proportions.

14. Scenario 2025: A Long War and Risks for Russia:

But Russia also faces very high risks of a long war.

The country is under sanctions pressure. Dependent on economic relations with countries of the global south such as China and India. Russia is also suffering heavy losses in the war. The announcement of mobilization could lead to very strong internal tension.

War constantly produces "black swans" like the recent crash of an Azerbaijani plane after a Russian air defense strike, which will suddenly create a whole range of problems.

War exacerbates all possible problems. For example, labor migration. Mobilization and recruitment of hundreds of thousands of men into the army under contract, the departure of hundreds of thousands more abroad created a very large labor shortage with high demand for it. The only way to quickly cover this shortage during the war is to attract labor migrants. And if mobilization is declared, and the war becomes long, then there will be even more migrants, and the problem will become even more acute. Even though the increase in the number of migrants is already causing tension in society.

It is also worth remembering that not long ago there was a major internal upheaval in the Russian Federation, which the authorities "slept through" - Prigozhin's mutiny. Prigozhin was promoted by a large number of Z-publics, spreading treason about the situation in the army and in the country. After the failure of the mutiny, the degree of "betrayal" in Z-publics dropped significantly, but not completely. This year, the problem again manifested itself through the spread of panic and hysteria in Z-channels around the situation in the Kursk region.

In general, this group continues to fuel all existing contradictions within the Russian Federation – between the people and the government / officials, between the rich and the poor, between those at the front and those in the rear, between Russians and Muslims, between locals and migrants, between soldiers and commanders.

Most actively, recently, it works in terms of incitement on interethnic grounds. Formally, this is presented as a fight against migration (given that this group is against ending the war, although it is the war that exacerbates the problem of migration to the greatest extent), but often comes down to inciting confrontation between Russians and Muslims. And this is an extremely dangerous topic for Russia, which can explode the situation inside the country and the army.

It is also obvious that this group enjoys the patronage of a part of the Russian leadership and special services, otherwise it would not be able to disperse "betrayal" with impunity. It is not entirely clear for what purpose this is being done. Either simply in the format of a "struggle between the Kremlin towers" for control over financial flows and influence. Or with the aim of removing Putin from power (possibly in cooperation with the West). And if the latter goal really exists, then a long war is a convenient tool for achieving it, since it exacerbates internal problems.

For now, however, the Russian state apparatus quickly suppresses any attempts at destabilization. In recent years, Moscow has been able to work on its mistakes. The economy has demonstrated very strong stability, the state system. The ability to keep the situation in the country under control. The army. To seize the initiative at the front.

And against this background, many in the Russian Federation now have euphoria and the feeling that "the final victory is already close. ".

But there was the same (and even greater) euphoria on the eve of the invasion of Ukraine and in its first days. And then it turned out that the calculation was fundamentally wrong. They did not take into account many things.

Therefore, even now, for Russia, we repeat, the key question is whether it is worth striving for maximalist goals, or whether it is more correct to record the achieved result, end the war, nullify the risks associated with it, free up resources for the development and strengthening of the state, as well as for more active work in other, more promising, geopolitical areas such as the Middle East and Africa.

In general, for both countries, a long war is a huge risk that could call into question the very existence of the two states.

15. Scenario 2025: "Red Lines", Nuclear Weapons and Risks for Peace:

But the war also poses a threat to the entire world, given that the country with the largest nuclear arsenal is participating in it. Especially since Moscow constantly hints that the war could go nuclear.

True, these hints have been coming for a long time, as have statements from the Russian Federation about the inadmissibility of crossing "red lines". And therefore many people are already skeptical about them. As if they were just words that you don't need to pay any attention to.

It is also obvious that for Russia the use of nuclear weapons is a very difficult decision with its own risks (the threat of complete international isolation or the inclusion of NATO in the war with the threat of a nuclear strike on Russia itself).

But Moscow may indeed have real "red lines" that, if crossed, it will be ready to use nuclear weapons or issue an ultimatum with a threat to use them. Such a "red line" is any situation that could lead to the defeat of the Russian Federation in a war.

And these, naturally, are not long-range strikes against the Russian Federation, the Kremlin's threats against which were to a greater extent an information campaign to actualize in Western society the fear of a nuclear war with the Russian Federation (and, in many ways, this campaign fulfilled its task).

The real "red lines" are different.

This could be the entry of NATO countries into the war in one form or another (sending troops to Ukraine, attacking Russian territory, declaring a no-fly zone over Ukraine, etc.), which would radically change the balance of power in the war not in favor of the Russian Federation.

This could be a naval blockade of Russian ports, which would paralyze Russian exports and put the Russian economy on the brink of collapse (by the way, the topic of a blockade of Russian shipping is already being discussed in the West).

Finally, this could be a situation of protracted war, in which Russia will gradually be exhausted, the risks for it will increase, and therefore the Kremlin may decide to cut the Gordian knot with one blow, threatening Ukraine and the West with a nuclear war: "either let's negotiate on our terms, or there will be a nuclear war. " And this is an extremely dangerous prospect, since both sides may hope that the enemy will bluff and, as a result, bring the matter to a nuclear conflict.

Therefore, the continuation of the war creates enormous threats not only for Ukraine and Russia, but for the entire world.

In itself, it became an example of miscalculation on all sides. Russia believed that it could quickly and with a small force take control of all of Ukraine. Ukraine and the West believed that Russia was very weak and would inevitably and quickly collapse if it started a full-scale war. Both calculations turned out to be critically wrong.

It is clear that it is difficult for anyone to admit their mistakes and even more difficult to agree on anything after rivers of spilled blood. But the longer the war goes on, the more it turns into a funnel that draws Ukraine, Russia and the entire world into new dark ages, creating colossal threats for both the warring countries and for all of humanity. And to avoid the worst, the war must end as soon as possible.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2972431]The Russians took Kurakhove.

Meanwhile, the illegal President of Ukraine will probably lower the conscription age to 18.

Hope Trump puts an end to this shit ASAP but I am not 100% hopeful considering the picks in his cabinet.[/QUOTE]I thought maybe you'd run out of hot air -- I guess not. How are your rubles doing?

The Glorious Imperial Ground Forces have captured 4,000 square kilometers in 2024 at the cost of 100 people per kilometer. Big success!

[QUOTE]Russian troops lost more than 420 thousand soldiers in 2024, advancing through the territory of Ukraine and in the Kursk region. At the same time, only 4,168 square kilometers were captured, most of which are fields and small settlements.

Along Data Institute for the Study of War (ISW), on average, Russian troops lost 102 soldiers for every square kilometer of territory they captured. The largest advance occurred between September and November 2024, when 56.5% of all territorial gains were obtained at the cost of 125,800 troops.[/QUOTE][URL]https://nv.ua/ukraine/events/voyna-rossii-protiv-ukrainy-isw-itogi-goda-2024-itogi-goda-2024-50478323.html[/URL]

It would take the Imperial Forces 2 years to conquer the rest of Donetsk Oblast under ideal conditions.

[QUOTE]Russian forces have seized four mid-sized settlements - Avdiivka, Selydove, Vuhledar, and Kurakhove - in all of 2024, the largest of which had a pre-war population of just over 31,000 people. Russian forces would require just over two years to seize the remainder of Donetsk Oblast at their 2024 rates of advance, assuming that all their advances were confined to Donetsk, that they can seize large urban areas as easily as small villages and fields, and that the Ukrainians do not conduct any significant counterattacks in Donetsk.[/QUOTE][URL]https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-offensive-campaign-assessment-december-31-2024[/URL]

I wonder if Russians watch too many movies.

[QUOTE]Han Solo: Just wondering what our objective is, lieutenant.
Mimban Lieutenant: Bring peace and prosperity to the galaxy, install a regime loyal to the Emperor and eradicate the hostiles.
Han Solo: It's their planet, we're the hostiles.
Mimban Lieutenant: You got a problem, trooper?
Han Solo: No problem, sir.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2972532]I thought maybe you'd run out of hot air -- I guess not. How are your rubles doing?[/QUOTE]Ukraine is winning.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2972835]Ukraine is winning.[/QUOTE]It's about Russia losing.

[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2972942]It's about Russia losing.[/QUOTE]For me it's about keeping Russia away from the rest of Europe. Ukraine might not regain all its territories, but it's giving Russia a bloody nose, hopefully bloody enough so that Putin doesn't get any smart ideas about the Baltics or Moldova. Eastern European countries owe the Ukrainians a lot.

[QUOTE=Questner;2972524]In Russia no prognosis has been made for 2025, only plans. Here below in a quote a prognosis from Ukraine for 2025:

The atmosphere in which Ukraine is celebrating the new year 2025 is strikingly different from the situation in both December 2022 and December 2023...[/QUOTE]Another excellent article, thanks again. While occasionally naive (for example, Musk et al may cause the USA Government to replace support of military contractors with support of Tech companies), the writer provides an insightful and informed look into the Ukraine situation from a variety of viewpoints. To fellow board members, it's a long read, but worth it, regardless of your beliefs. I agree wholeheartedly with the concluding statement:

"It is clear that it is difficult for anyone to admit their mistakes and even more difficult to agree on anything after rivers of spilled blood. But the longer the war goes on, the more it turns into a funnel that draws Ukraine, Russia and the entire world into new dark ages, creating colossal threats for both the warring countries and for all of humanity. And to avoid the worst, the war must end as soon as possible. ".

Where did you find this Questner? I can't locate the source with Google.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2972969]Another excellent article, thanks again. While occasionally naive (for example, Musk et al may cause the USA Government to replace support of military contractors with support of Tech companies), the writer provides an insightful and informed look into the Ukraine situation from a variety of viewpoints. To fellow board members, it's a long read, but worth it, regardless of your beliefs. I agree wholeheartedly with the concluding statement:

"It is clear that it is difficult for anyone to admit their mistakes and even more difficult to agree on anything after rivers of spilled blood. But the longer the war goes on, the more it turns into a funnel that draws Ukraine, Russia and the entire world into new dark ages, creating colossal threats for both the warring countries and for all of humanity. And to avoid the worst, the war must end as soon as possible. ".

Where did you find this Questner? I can't locate the source with Google.[/QUOTE]Home made by Questner, LOL.

After coming back from my first Mongering trip to Kiev back in 2009 ,I posted in the Kiev thread my feeling that the great mongering destination won't last for a long time! I was thinking about Ukraine joining The EU when all the Beauties would then head west!

Who would have ever thought that UA beauties would leg it out to the west not as a result of joining The EU, But following The Special Operation by Putin! Some operation nearly 3 years on and counting.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2972969]Another excellent article, thanks again. While occasionally naive (for example, Musk et al may cause the USA Government to replace support of military contractors with support of Tech companies), the writer provides an insightful and informed look into the Ukraine situation from a variety of viewpoints. To fellow board members, it's a long read, but worth it, regardless of your beliefs. I agree wholeheartedly with the concluding statement:

"It is clear that it is difficult for anyone to admit their mistakes and even more difficult to agree on anything after rivers of spilled blood. But the longer the war goes on, the more it turns into a funnel that draws Ukraine, Russia and the entire world into new dark ages, creating colossal threats for both the warring countries and for all of humanity. And to avoid the worst, the war must end as soon as possible. ".

Where did you find this Questner? I can't locate the source with Google.[/QUOTE]The forum has rules that do not allow posts in any language other than English. The rules are the rules and have to be followed.

Also my every post has to pass a moderator. Again, the rules have to be followed as lack of moderation can destroy public boards. Even if the moderation is selective, I am only a guest and don't make the rules.

The reasonable way out is to provide a translation from Ukrainian or Russian with some clarifications on the terms that direct translation won't allow.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2972969]

Where did you find this Questner? I can't locate the source with Google.[/QUOTE]Why do you think that is, Tiny? Why do propacondoms NEVER use attributions? Take a wild guess.

[QUOTE=PaulInZurich;2972950]For me it's about keeping Russia away from the rest of Europe. Ukraine might not regain all its territories, but it's giving Russia a bloody nose, hopefully bloody enough so that Putin doesn't get any smart ideas about the Baltics or Moldova. Eastern European countries owe the Ukrainians a lot.[/QUOTE]I'm honestly shocked that some people believe this horseshit, that Russia has territorial interests other than Eastern Ukraine. I guess it has to do will believing western mainstream media propaganda and not having any military experience. For fucks sake, use your brain. Putin, even if he didn't want to, does NOT have an army big enough to go beyond Ukraine's borders.

The Baltic states are NATO members, Einstein. Same for Poland. Putin isn't stupid enough to attack a NATO state.

Moldova is a different case no doubt with the Transnistria status resolved.

[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2972942]It's about Russia losing.[/QUOTE]Well, the only party that is doomed to lose is going to be Ukraine. Get used to it.

Also, why are you even in this thread? You have ZERO understanding of this conflict, other than your hatred and fear of Russia.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2973067]I'm honestly shocked that some people believe this horseshit, that Russia has territorial interests other than Eastern Ukraine. [/QUOTE]Really, so all the nonsense spewed by Medvedev or Russian TV is just some regular Ivan talking shit while getting drunk on a street in Moscow and doesn't have the OK from Putin? And the occupied parts from Georgia don't count?

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2973067]Putin, even if he didn't want to, does NOT have an army big enough to go beyond Ukraine's borders.[/QUOTE]And he learned that only when trying to occupy Kyiv. Zelensky might be a clown, but he didn't run away.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2973067]The Baltic states are NATO members, Einstein. Same for Poland. Putin isn't stupid enough to attack a NATO state. Moldova is a different case no doubt with the Transnistria status resolved.[/QUOTE]Putin is prodding for a long time trying to find out with what he can get away. Murder people in UK or Germany? Is that OK? Endanger public safety due murdering somebody with polonium or nerve agents? Is that OK? Blow up ammunition depots or kill people involved in the weapons business inside Europe? Cutting undersea cables? Who is to say that the next step wouldn't be stirring up unrest in Latvia where there is significant Russian speaking population. You are making my point, your neighbours only feel safe when they are part of NATO because they know you too well from history.

Since when is Russia promising that they withdraw from Transnistria? Let's see, they signed an agreement in 1994 that they will withdraw, well it didn't happen. They signed another one in 1999, with a "firm" date of December 2002, that didn't happen either. Last time I checked it's 2025.

Things like this are why your neighbours don't trust you one kopeck.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2973068]...Also, why are you even in this thread?...[/QUOTE]Primarily, to resist paid disinformation and propaganda. I support the cause of democratic liberalism. I want to see a healthy, educated world where there is no armed conflict and international disputes are resolved through legal means.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2973068]...You have ZERO understanding of this conflict, other than your hatred and fear of Russia.[/QUOTE]I had great hopes for the RF after 1992. There was a temporary blossoming of freedom, liberalism and culture, which has been suppressed by Putin's dictatorship. I am an amateur historian and have always had an interest in Russian imperialism, hegemony, territorial aggrandizement and periodic failure. In my opinion, Russia is in a much, much more fragile condition than in either 1917 or 1991. I believe, and I think you know it as well, its failure is inevitable.

[QUOTE=Questner;2973006]The forum has rules that do not allow posts in any language other than English. The rules are the rules and have to be followed.

Also my every post has to pass a moderator. Again, the rules have to be followed as lack of moderation can destroy public boards. Even if the moderation is selective, I am only a guest and don't make the rules.

The reasonable way out is to provide a translation from Ukrainian or Russian with some clarifications on the terms that direct translation won't allow.[/QUOTE]Yeah right, aha. You're so slick and everyone else here is an idiot.

Moderators won't have an issue with a post that links to a URL of the original source. It's not the same as commenting in another language.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2973067][b]I'm honestly shocked[/b] that some people believe this horseshit, that Russia has territorial interests other than Eastern Ukraine.[/QUOTE]Come on dude! Snap out of it.

You're serving a bona-fide fascist regime. Very few things can possibly shock you. Nothing, as in nothing at all, can shock you "honestly".

Here is a fact. Kyiv in three days was a real military objective. Ukraine as a state was supposed to fall under Russia's control within 75 days by military and other means. This war is all about colonialism and it's never been about his fear of the Nato expansion. Whether or not Putin's still harboring his delusions today, 3 years later, remains to be seen.

But back in 2022? Give me a fucking break. He didn't start a full-scale invasion in order to grab two lousy eastern oblasts that they had already pillaged and robbed blind in the preceding 8 years.

[QUOTE]Russian President Vladimir Putin didn't invade Ukraine in 2022 because he feared NATO. He invaded because he believed that NATO was weak, that his efforts to regain control of Ukraine by other means had failed, and that installing a pro-Russian government in Kyiv would be safe and easy. His aim was not to defend Russia against some non-existent threat but rather to expand Russias power, eradicate Ukraines statehood, and destroy NATO, goals he still pursues.

Putin had convinced himself by the end of 2021 that Russia had the opportunity to safely launch a full-scale invasion of Ukraine to accomplish two distinct goals: establish Russian control over Ukraine without facing significant Western resistance and break the unity of NATO. [/QUOTE][URL]https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/weakness-lethal-why-putin-invaded-ukraine-and-how-war-must-end[/URL]

The plan was to quickly seize Kyiv, apprehend or murder Zelensky and other government officials and install a puppet government that would be completely obedient to Kremlin's will.

[QUOTE]Vladimir Putin expected to defeat Ukraine in three days after his spies told him thousands of people would rise up to overthrow Volodymyr Zelensky.

Leaked documents show the FSB security service was feeding poor intelligence to the Russian tyrant before his invasion of Ukraine.

Putin ordered his forces to invade Ukraine a year ago in the belief he could secure a lightning victory by seizing the capital Kyiv and decapitating the leadership.

But heroic Ukrainian resistance thwarted the Russians, whose dreams of quick victory soon turned into the nightmare - with nearly 150,000 of Putins soldiers now lying dead.

The initial attempt to take Kyiv has been blamed on cataclysmic intelligence failures about the capabilities of the Ukrainians and their willingness to fight back.

But the extent to which Putins spies bungled is revealed by emails from within the FSB, which have been shared with The Sun.

They come from a source known as Wind of Change and were sent to Russian human rights activist Vladimir Osechkin, the founder of Gulagu, which highlights abuses in the countrys prisons.

The emails are believed to originally be the work of one FSB officer but its thought several now contribute to the emails.

In an email written about a fortnight after the invasion, as Russias dead began to mount, the source reveals how the FSB spies had been reporting that before the invasion, Ukrainians were ready to rise up.

We issued reports that at minimum about 2,000 trained civilians in every major city in Ukraine were ready to overthrow Zelensky, a leaked email reads.

And that at least 5,000 civilians were prepared to come out with flags against Zelensky on the beck-and-call of Russia.

Wind of Change then goes on to explain that the FSB thought that once Zelensky had been toppled, the Ukrainians would then fight among themselves to win Putins favour.

[b]Do you want a laugh?, says the source.

We were expected to be the arbitrators for crowning Ukrainian politicians who were supposed to start tearing each other apart competing for the right to be called aligned with Russia.[/b]

The source mentioned several times that three days was the timetable given to Putin for the capture of Kyiv.

What if it doesnt work? This question was left unanswered when they planned to take Kiev in three days, said Wind of Change in one reference.

The Russian leaders views are shaped by his ideological blind spot towards Ukraine so it would take a brave FSB officer to go out on a limb.

He is absolutely convinced that Ukraine is not a real country and Ukrainians not a real people and therefore cant bring him to accept that theyre willing to die with such determination for this non-country.

Whos going to be the one who actually says Vladimir Vladimirovich thats not actually the way things are.

In the hours and days after the war began, the chilling sight of helicopters swarming towards Kyiv gave way to harrowing images of charred armoured columns ambushed by Ukrainians.

The initial attempt to seize Hostomel airport and use it to pour in reinforcements ended in humiliation when the elite Russian paratroopers given the task were obliterated.[/QUOTE][URL]https://www.news.com.au/world/europe/putin-thought-he-could-take-ukraine-in-three-days-leaked-emails-reveal/news-story/bf4de32af600b8b653069cdc34c174c8[/URL]

[URL]https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/21449691/putin-ukraine-3-days-docs/[/URL]

[URL]https://www.gulagu.net[/URL]

[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2973127]Primarily, to resist paid disinformation and propaganda. I support the cause of democratic liberalism. I want to see a healthy, educated world [b]where there is no armed conflict[/b] and international disputes are resolved through legal means.[/QUOTE]Then why don't you favor Ukraine and Russia entering into peace negotiations and an armistice ASAP?

[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2973127]I had great hopes for the RF after 1992. There was a temporary blossoming of freedom, liberalism and culture, which has been suppressed by Putin's dictatorship. I am an amateur historian and have always had an interest in Russian imperialism, hegemony, territorial aggrandizement and periodic failure. In my opinion, Russia is in a much, much more fragile condition than in either 1917 or 1991. I believe, and I think you know it as well, its failure is inevitable.[/QUOTE]This is a worthwhile read for any amateur historian holding the views you do about Russia. Please don't overlook the documents at the end if you take a look.

[URL]https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2017-12-12/nato-expansion-what-gorbachev-heard-western-leaders-early[/URL]

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2973203]Then why don't you favor Ukraine and Russia entering into peace negotiations and an armistice ASAP?...[/QUOTE]I am in favor of peace. Negotiations over the prosecution of war crimes and reparations should begin immediately after Russia withdraws behind sovereign borders.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2973203]Then why don't you favor Ukraine and Russia entering into peace negotiations and an armistice ASAP?

This is a worthwhile read for any amateur historian holding the views you do about Russia. Please don't overlook the documents at the end if you take a look.

[URL]https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2017-12-12/nato-expansion-what-gorbachev-heard-western-leaders-early[/URL][/QUOTE]I really want to see how Ukrainian security can be guaranteed in any peace negotiation. Assuming a deal territories against peace, which foreign troops will be allowed by both Russia and Ukraine to guarantee the demarcation line?

I don't think anybody is against peace and for war. I think some people when they say they are for peace, they mean that they are for Ukrainian capitulation. During the last negotiations Russia was asking for a severe limitation in Ukrainian Army size and what weapons they would be allowed, which would guarantee that Ukraine could not defend itself anymore. Security guarantees would depend on a Russian veto. There was a treaty, more than 30 years ago Ukraine gave up nuclear weapons for security and territorial guarantees, Russia signed that treaty. What good is that piece of paper now?

Ukraine was neutral in 2014 and there were no talks of the government then that they are asking to join NATO. Then Putin invaded Crimeea. I find it strange that people keep saying "but in 1990 during negotiations some people said NATO would not expand". Maybe, but in the end it was never in any treaty, whatever was in the treaties then was what was accepted by the Soviet leadership at the time. Should Poland, Romania, the Baltic countries be kicked out of NATO because Putin wants that now?

At the same time people ignore when actual signed treaties were violated by Russia. Can we please hold everybody to the same standard?

[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2973227]I am in favor of peace. Negotiations over the prosecution of war crimes and reparations should begin immediately after Russia withdraws behind sovereign borders.[/QUOTE]That's a recipe for endless war, "prosecution of war crimes" in particular.

[QUOTE=PaulInZurich;2973241]I really want to see how Ukrainian security can be guaranteed in any peace negotiation. Assuming a deal territories against peace, which foreign troops will be allowed by both Russia and Ukraine to guarantee the demarcation line?

I don't think anybody is against peace and for war. I think some people when they say they are for peace, they mean that they are for Ukrainian capitulation. During the last negotiations Russia was asking for a severe limitation in Ukrainian Army size and what weapons they would be allowed, which would guarantee that Ukraine could not defend itself anymore. Security guarantees would depend on a Russian veto. There was a treaty, more than 30 years ago Ukraine gave up nuclear weapons for security and territorial guarantees, Russia signed that treaty. What good is that piece of paper now?

Ukraine was neutral in 2014 and there were no talks of the government then that they are asking to join NATO. Then Putin invaded Crimeea. I find it strange that people keep saying "but in 1990 during negotiations some people said NATO would not expand". Maybe, but in the end it was never in any treaty, whatever was in the treaties then was what was accepted by the Soviet leadership at the time. Should Poland, Romania, the Baltic countries be kicked out of NATO because Putin wants that now?

At the same time people ignore when actual signed treaties were violated by Russia. Can we please hold everybody to the same standard?[/QUOTE]Ukraine's position has been that it must ultimately regain all its territory including Crimea, although its backed off that somewhat. You've outlined Russia's position above. But to what extent are these just opening positions that neither side expects to fully achieve? The two sides were close in April, 2022. They should sit at the same table and hammer something out.

Ukraine and the West have to be realistic. Russia has a lot more manpower and military capability than Ukraine in addition to a huge nuclear arsenal. It's not going to lose this war.

You could level the same accusations at the USA that you're leveling at Russia. The Mexican-American war is a good analogy although admittedly something that occurred long ago. The USA added territory claimed by Mexico (Texas) where a large % of the population wanted to be annexed by the United States, and then war broke out which resulted in Mexico ceding a large part of the country to the USA. Iraq is not as good a comparison, although Russia at least is, mistakenly or not, protecting its interest in the near abroad, instead of pursuing democracy and imaginary weapons of mass destruction in a country 11,000 kilometers away. If the 20th century had turned out differently and Canada or Mexico were looking at joining the Warsaw Pact, the USA wouldn't just sit still. And the USA hasn't been one to let a piece of paper (i.e. treaty) dictate its conduct either.

I wish great powers conducted foreign policy as sensibly as yours (Switzerland) has through the centuries. But that's not the world we live in. And the primary goal now should be to stop the bloodshed IMO.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2973648]That's a recipe for endless war, "prosecution of war crimes" in particular.

Ukraine's position has been that it must ultimately regain all its territory including Crimea, although its backed off that somewhat. You've outlined Russia's position above. But to what extent are these just opening positions that neither side expects to fully achieve? The two sides were close in April, 2022. They should sit at the same table and hammer something out.[/QUOTE]You keep repeating the same propacondoms' lies about some mythical agreement that had been hammered and would've been signed if mischievous Boris Johnson didn't torpedo it at the last moment.

That's a phantasy. There was no agreement ready to sign. It's an FSB construct for useful idiots in the West, and it's upsetting that you believe this nonsense.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2973648]Ukraine and the West have to be realistic. Russia has a lot more manpower and military capability than Ukraine in addition to a huge nuclear arsenal. It's not going to lose this war.[/QUOTE]You don't know Russian history very well. Russia has managed to lose wars it started in way more favorable conditions. It's one thing to capture a village or town, but it's an entirely different proposition to [B]hold on to it[/B]. One way or another, sooner or later, Ukraine will regain its territories.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2973648]You could level the same accusations at the USA that you're leveling at Russia. The Mexican-American war is a good analogy although admittedly something that occurred long ago. The USA added territory claimed by Mexico (Texas) where a large % of the population wanted to be annexed by the United States, and then war broke out which resulted in Mexico ceding a large part of the country to the USA. [/QUOTE]My goodness, please tell me you DO understand how removed the US is right now from the Manifest Destiny. Please tell me you don't fall for this yet another Russian narrative that we're not better than them. It's 2025, not 19th century when everyone and their mother were in a mad dash to conquer new colonies; we haven't been "that guy" for a long, long time; yet Russia and its imperial aspirations are exactly the same today as they were 200 years ago.

Sane nations do not conquer foreign lands anymore. Russia is the biggest anachronism in the history of mankind, and it will fail -- hard.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2973648]That's a recipe for endless war, "prosecution of war crimes" in particular....You could level the same accusations at the USA that you're leveling at Russia. The Mexican-American war is a good analogy ...[/QUOTE]The main reason that Germany is a decent country today is due to the prosecution of war crimes and the de-nazification of society. Justice and the prosecution of crimes is critical to the continuance of a free, egalitarian state. Truly, the Mexican-American war is an excellent comparison to the current Russian invasion of Ukraine -- the difference being we won decisively. I believe one of the reasons the US is such a f!cked up country today is that our imperialistic crimes in the 19th century were never punished. Further, I believe that the failure to pscourge the oligarchic slave holders for their insurrection in 1861 is the principle cause of the current revanchism of the southern US.

If you hope for a modern, prosperous, free and open Russia, as I do, then you should hope for war crimes prosecutions and the de-putinization of Russia.

[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2973658]The main reason that Germany is a decent country today is due to the prosecution of war crimes and the de-nazification of society. Justice and the prosecution of crimes is critical to the continuance of a free, egalitarian state. Truly, the Mexican-American war is an excellent comparison to the current Russian invasion of Ukraine -- the difference being we won decisively. I believe one of the reasons the US is such a f!cked up country today is that our imperialistic crimes in the 19th century were never punished. Further, I believe that the failure to pscourge the oligarchic slave holders for their insurrection in 1861 is the principle cause of the current revanchism of the southern US.

If you hope for a modern, prosperous, free and open Russia, as I do, then you should hope for war crimes prosecutions and the de-putinization of Russia.[/QUOTE]You're making my point Clayton. There was no way Mexico, even if aided with arms (but not troops) from Europe, was going to win the war. And then go marching into Washington D. C. And prosecute James K. Polk, Zachary Taylor, and George McClellan for war crimes. And, reaching further into the depths of my fantasy world, no way Europeans would have sent troops if the USA had weapons that could be launched with the touch of a red button and would destroy them ten times over.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2973648]Ukraine and the West have to be realistic. Russia has a lot more manpower and military capability than Ukraine in addition to a huge nuclear arsenal. It's not going to lose this war.
[/QUOTE]So how come they lost in Afghanistan? They were a nuclear power then, with a lot of manpower and military capability.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2973667]You're making my point Clayton. There was no way Mexico, even if aided with arms (but not troops) from Europe, was going to win the war. And then go marching into Washington D. C. And prosecute James K. Polk, Zachary Taylor, and George McClellan for war crimes. And, reaching further into the depths of my fantasy world, no way Europeans would have sent troops if the USA had weapons that could be launched with the touch of a red button and would destroy them ten times over.[/QUOTE]Your "point" is fallacious. It's called the tu quoque fallacy. When faced with the fact that there was no treaty stipulating that NATO won't expand into Eastern Europe, and while even the idea of past verbal assurances are questionable, you dive back 180 years and start talking about the Mexican-American War. So whether it's this whataboutism or some other, rest assured folks, that when Tiny goes there he's a fish out of water in the hear and now and regarding his slanted, Russophile perspective. Congratulations Paul in Zurich.

[URL]https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/tu-quoque[/URL]

I'll also add that it's nauseating when you claim to care about human life when appeasement historically has encouraged aggression rather than deter it. What is Russia's word worth in any agreement? Oh but forgot, you're the guy who believes Putin hasn't targeted civilians, while you glad hand here with guys who assert that Alexi Navalny died of natural causes.

This is the 82-year old who told Putin to go fuck himself, although I like another quote more.

[QUOTE]Don't be scared. When you're scared, fear itself overcomes everything. Don't be scared. When you're scared nothing fucking will change.[/QUOTE][URL]https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineWarVideoReport/comments/19blniw/id_tell_him_to_go_fck_himself_this_russian_woman/?rdt=40169[/URL]

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2973667] And, reaching further into the depths of my fantasy world, no way Europeans would have sent troops if the USA had weapons that could be launched with the touch of a red button and would destroy them ten times over.[/QUOTE]Unsurprisingly your analogy only has your beloved Russia with nukes. NATO will very likely send troops if Puts launches tactical nukes. Odds of him doing that though are slim. Use of the big stuff is a suicide mission. What they count on is making guys like you cower (not hard), to secure appeasement so they can regroup and start more fights in the future. The hope though of course is that they make another go at democracy at some point. The West hopes to be influential in that by exacting costs.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2973667]... no way Europeans would have sent troops if the USA had weapons that could be launched with the touch of a red button and would destroy them ten times over.[/QUOTE]You continue to advance disinformation about the inevitability of Russian victory. In 2022, when it was already clear that the Russian army was not the second greatest army in the world, only the second greatest in Ukraine, I was worried that Putin would launch his nukes. However, I believe now, that he perceives the war only in terms of his personal survival. He knows that the chance disappears if he uses nukes.

[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2973708]You continue to advance disinformation about the inevitability of Russian victory. In 2022, when it was already clear that the Russian army was not the second greatest army in the world, only the second greatest in Ukraine, I was worried that Putin would launch his nukes. However, I believe now, that he perceives the war only in terms of his personal survival. He knows that the chance disappears if he uses nukes.[/QUOTE]Russia has either lost or failed in their objectives in a number of armed conflicts since developing nukes. Tiny is also incorrect in assuming that Russia is entitled to a sphere of influence while they have an economy about the size of Brazil. That horse left the stable long ago, while nuclear saber rattling is unlikely to get it back.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2973667]You're making my point Clayton. There was no way Mexico, even if aided with arms (but not troops) from Europe, was going to win the war. And then go marching into Washington D. C. And prosecute James K. Polk, Zachary Taylor, and George McClellan for war crimes. And, reaching further into the depths of my fantasy world, no way Europeans would have sent troops if the USA had weapons that could be launched with the touch of a red button and would destroy them ten times over.[/QUOTE]I have no idea what you're talking about and why.

1. Mexico, unlike Ukraine, never was aided with arms or troops even though they did appeal to the British. Arguing whether or not they would or wouldn't have won had they received help is utterly pointless.

2. Mexico didn't lose to Texas and later the USA because they had fewer soldiers or weapons. If I remember correctly, the US army was smaller than Mexico's. Mexicans lost because they were disorganized, lacked discipline and were plagued with infighting and political instability.

3. Santa Anna being a narcissist and self-proclaimed Napoleon of the West, royally fucked things up for his country.

4. Finally, for the umpteenth time: What happened in the 19th century has zero bearing for the 2022 Russian colonial war against Ukraine. In the past 200 years, America has changed. Russia hasn't.

[QUOTE=Paulie97;2973692]What they count on is making guys like you cower (not hard), to secure appeasement so they can regroup and start more fights in the future. The hope though of course is that they make another go at democracy at some point. The West hopes to be influential in that by exacting costs.[/QUOTE]I guess Tiny is solely responsible for the fall of all the Zelensky loving, Putin hating governments falling in the Western powers like Germany, the USA, now Canada, and soon to be France.

Of all the arguments made, the most compelling against Ukraine I have seen is that we could have built a water pipeline and natural gas pipeline from Alaska to the Western USA with the money wasted on Ukraine.

This is a clear case of Democratic pols putting their interests above their constituents and IMO why they and the other Zelensky backers got voted out. In the USA's case, the Dems wanted payback for their belief Putin rigged the 2016 election and to hide all the dirt that is and was going on in Ukraine.

[QUOTE=Elvis2008;2973889]I guess Tiny is solely responsible for the fall of all the Zelensky loving, Putin hating governments falling in the Western powers like Germany, the USA, now Canada, and soon to be France.

Of all the arguments made, the most compelling against Ukraine I have seen is that we could have built a water pipeline and natural gas pipeline from Alaska to the Western USA with the money wasted on Ukraine.

This is a clear case of Democratic pols putting their interests above their constituents and IMO why they and the other Zelensky backers got voted out. In the USA's case, the Dems wanted payback for their belief Putin rigged the 2016 election and to hide all the dirt that is and was going on in Ukraine.[/QUOTE]You don't have an "argument" here. Why? Because you are just repeating the same nonsense again that's already been refuted dozens of times, here in ISG on these threads. You type up false information, and when corrected, whether ten, twenty, or one hundred times, just keep typing up and posting the same falsehoods. Yours is the most common fallacy of the ad-nauseam. A large portion of Republicans have from the beginning been in favor of Ukrainian aid, while Trump himself oversaw the first administration to send lethal aid.

Anyway here's the voting data on the last Ukrainian aid package from eight months ago, House and Senate. It's all quite bipartisan, which well undermines your "Democrat" conspiracy theories. The third link explains your fallacy of the ad-nauseam, which essentially means that if you tell a lie long enough some are liable to believe it. Regardless you've known for a long time that Ukrainian aid has been quite bipartisan, but instead choose to try and fool a few mongers on stupid shit threads. Knock yourself out, as there isn't a lot of hope for the sort of people that would fall for it, embracing what sounds good to them without doing any fact checking.

[URL]https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/full-list-of-republican-senators-who-voted-against-ukraine-aid/ar-AA1nz2Eq[/URL]

[URL]https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/these-112-house-republicans-voted-against-ukraine-aid/ar-AA1nmjSP[/URL]

[URL]https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_nauseam[/URL]

[QUOTE=Elvis2008;2973889]I guess Tiny is solely responsible for the fall of all the Zelensky loving, Putin hating governments falling in the Western powers like Germany, the USA, now Canada, and soon to be France.[/QUOTE]Tiny, like you, is responsible for his constant logical fallacies. I'll leave it at that, but Germany's center-right CDU leader Friedrich Merz, who is the likely next chancellor, is a staunch supporter of Ukraine, and unlike the present leader, supports the use of the German made, long range "Taurus" missles inside Russia.

[URL]https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2024/12/09/germanys-cdu-leader-friedrich-merz-visits-kyiv-to-reaffirm-support[/URL]

[URL]https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/12/16/germany-set-for-new-elections-after-chancellor-scholz-loses-confidence-vote[/URL]

We know you've exaggerated the US situation, but if you have any evidence that Canada and France are about to close up shop in the matter of support for Ukraine and distaste for the cowardly dictator Putin, then link us to your sources. Links are something you almost never provide, while that would make for a good start in building some credibility for yourself.

BTW, since your Putin sucking up grows all the time, I have a question for you. Do you believe like Blood Red that Alexi Navalny simply died of natural causes? Of course that opens a big can of worms regarding a history of similar events, but a straight answer to that question would be much appreciated.

[QUOTE=Paulie97;2973956]Yours is the most common fallacy of the ad-nauseam. A large portion of Republicans have from the beginning been in favor of Ukrainian aid, while Trump himself oversaw the first administration to send lethal aid.[/QUOTE]You are as delusional on this as on Covid. Trump ran on peace in Ukraine not war. The support for war among Republicans in Ukraine is dwindling like crazy. [URL]https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/how-stalled-u-s-aid-for-ukraine-exemplifies-gops-softening-stance-on-russia[/URL].

And some Republicans have been scared of being painted as Putin lovers. That is something you Dems have been falsely charging since Russiagate. And this is what was in the news today, [URL]https://www.zerohedge.com/political/fbi-still-hiding-details-russiagate-newly-released-document-shows[/URL] The Electronic Communication, dated May 16,2017, claimed to have an "articulable factual basis" to suspect that Trump "wittingly or unwittingly" was illegally acting on behalf of Russia. Aaron Mate is looking like crazy as to why this FBI investigation was actually begun.

Ah yes, the truckers in Canada protesting Covid could have been and were accused of the same. They may have unwittingly been acting on behalf of Russia too. Hell, who could NOT be accused of that?

So being a Putin lover, is the same as in the 50's of being a communist lover. So just like in the 1950's, no pol is gong to run on not being pro Zelensky and anti Putin. The question is not what European leaders say but what are they going to do.

The real question, and one that does not bother you at all, is why the hell was the FBI bending over backwards and conducting an illegal investigation to call Trump a Putin lover. The deep state seems to originated this whole shaming crap and making the accusation of being a "Putin lover".

And I am lying? How about you and all the Democratic leaders saying we were supporting Ukraine until they achieved victory? Yeah, Ukraine is going to win against Russia. How long have you all been lying about that? When is Victory Day Paulie? This crap has been going on for years now. How pathetic are you to claim yourself moral as the bodies continue to pile up.

And the Trump election did not signify a change in Ukraine policy? Yeah, keep telling yourself that.

Despite challenges, Ukraine is currently winning the economic war with Russia.

[URL]https://www.economist.com/finance-and-economics/2024/12/18/ukraine-is-winning-the-economic-war-against-russia[/URL]

A Russian victory would come with very high costs for the West, in both the short and long term.

[URL]https://www.globsec.org/sites/default/files/2023-09/Costs%20of%20Inaction%20&%20Benefits%20of%20Action%20report.pdf[/URL]

[URL]https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/high-price-losing-ukraine-part-2-%E2%80%94-military-threat-and-beyond[/URL]

[URL]https://www.foreignaffairs.com/ukraine/price-russian-victory[/URL]

There's a lot of good content out there folks, for those that want to learn. Or one can continue to read Russia propaganda and listen to YouTube blowhards that knowingly or unknowingly promote the same. It's your choice.

[QUOTE=Paulie97;2973674]Your "point" is fallacious. It's called the tu quoque fallacy. When faced with the fact that there was no treaty stipulating that NATO won't expand into Eastern Europe, and while even the idea of past verbal assurances are questionable, you dive back 180 years and start talking about the Mexican-American War. So whether it's this whataboutism or some other, rest assured folks, that when Tiny goes there he's a fish out of water in the hear and now and regarding his slanted, Russophile perspective. Congratulations Paul in Zurich.

[URL]https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/tu-quoque[/URL]

I'll also add that it's nauseating when you claim to care about human life when appeasement historically has encouraged aggression rather than deter it. What is Russia's word worth in any agreement? Oh but forgot, you're the guy who believes Putin hasn't targeted civilians, while you glad hand here with guys who assert that Alexi Navalny died of natural causes.[/QUOTE]Quoque tu too, and quoque your Ivy Leave philosophy degree. Does that make sense? Or how about "Paulie makes Ad Hominem arguments, and then when somebody replies in kind, Paulie tu quoques him." I didn't know what Ad Hominem meant until I saw it used in your posts. Well, you're the master of that. You end up calling board members losers, stupid or immoral in the majority of your posts.

I said the Mexican American War occurred long ago, and that my analogy came from "my fantasy world. " With the possible exception of you, I don't believe board members are current or past movers and shakers in the USA foreign policy / defense / military complex. Furthermore, the person I was replying to presumably wasn't even American. He lives in Zurich. So how am I "appealing to hypocrisy. To shift the focus [B]back on the person making the criticism[/B]"?

What's "nauseating" is enabling this war, so hundreds of thousands more will die, instead of pushing the sides to stop fighting.

Navalny is one person. According to the UN, 12,300 civilians have died in Ukraine over 2 years and 10 months. The allies killed around 24,000 in bombing raids in Dresden in three days. Around 200,000 died from the Hiroshima bomb. Is that another good example of quoque tu?

[QUOTE=Paulie97;2974137]Despite challenges, Ukraine is currently winning the economic war with Russia.

[URL]https://www.economist.com/finance-and-economics/2024/12/18/ukraine-is-winning-the-economic-war-against-russia[/URL]

A Russian victory would come with very high costs for the West, in both the short and long term.

[URL]https://www.globsec.org/sites/default/files/2023-09/Costs%20of%20Inaction%20&%20Benefits%20of%20Action%20report.pdf[/URL]

[URL]https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/high-price-losing-ukraine-part-2-%E2%80%94-military-threat-and-beyond[/URL]

[URL]https://www.foreignaffairs.com/ukraine/price-russian-victory[/URL]

There's a lot of good content out there folks, for those that want to learn. Or one can continue to read Russia propaganda and listen to YouTube blowhards that knowingly or unknowingly promote the same. It's your choice.[/QUOTE]Most Ukrainians now want an end to the war. Ukraine is not going to win this war. And no country has offered to take the lead in the Ukraine Contract Group if the USA Withdraws from that role.

[URL]https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2024/11/20/most-ukrainians-now-want-an-end-to-the-war[/URL]

[URL]https://www.ft.com/content/6137b633-c3b9-4703-8840-6191388e4092[/URL]

[URL]https://www.politico.com/news/2025/01/08/ukraine-group-austin-nato-00197179[/URL]

There's a lot of good content out there folks, for those that (sic) want to learn. Or one can continue to read propaganda and listen to YouTube blowhards that (sic) knowingly or unknowingly promote the same. It's your choice.

[QUOTE=PaulInZurich;2973670]So how come they lost in Afghanistan? They were a nuclear power then, with a lot of manpower and military capability.[/QUOTE]About 15,000 Russian military died in the Afghanistan war over 11 years. The Pentagon estimated that 115,000 Russians died in Ukraine up to October, 2024. Russia is dead set on not losing this war. The stakes are higher in its view given it borders Ukraine. Afghanistan to Russia was like Vietnam to the USA. A place that was farther away and not of high strategic importance. Finally, Putin is more determined to come up with, at a minimum, a face saving end to this than Gorbachev was.

[QUOTE=Xpartan;2973655]You keep repeating the same propacondoms' lies about some mythical agreement that had been hammered and would've been signed if mischievous Boris Johnson didn't torpedo it at the last moment.

That's a phantasy. There was no agreement ready to sign. It's an FSB construct for useful idiots in the West, and it's upsetting that you believe this nonsense.[/QUOTE]The agreement was "torpedoed" by the Kremlin (not Boris Johnson) which at the last minute tried to insert a provision that would give Russia a veto on defense of Ukraine by other countries. That doesn't change that the sides were very close and should have continued talking.

[QUOTE=Xpartan;2973655]You don't know Russian history very well. Russia has managed to lose wars it started in way more favorable conditions. It's one thing to capture a village or town, but it's an entirely different proposition to [B]hold on to it[/B]. One way or another, sooner or later, Ukraine will regain its territories.[/QUOTE]I don't see how that happens. And believe that civilians living in Russian-occupied territories would much prefer living in Russian oblasts instead of continuing the war. In fact, I believe the majority would prefer to live in Russia period.

[QUOTE=Xpartan;2973655]My goodness, please tell me you DO understand how removed the US is right now from the Manifest Destiny. Please tell me you don't fall for this yet another Russian narrative that we're not better than them. It's 2025, not 19th century when everyone and their mother were in a mad dash to conquer new colonies; we haven't been "that guy" for a long, long time; yet Russia and its imperial aspirations are exactly the same today as they were 200 years ago.

Sane nations do not conquer foreign lands anymore. Russia is the biggest anachronism in the history of mankind, and it will fail -- hard.[/QUOTE]The USA may be on the verge of taking over Panama and Greenland, and invading Mexico to pursue narcos. Apologies for tu quoqing.

[QUOTE=Elvis2008;2973889]I guess Tiny is solely responsible for the fall of all the Zelensky loving, Putin hating governments falling in the Western powers like Germany, the USA, now Canada, and soon to be France.

Of all the arguments made, the most compelling against Ukraine I have seen is that we could have built a water pipeline and natural gas pipeline from Alaska to the Western USA with the money wasted on Ukraine.

This is a clear case of Democratic pols putting their interests above their constituents and IMO why they and the other Zelensky backers got voted out. In the USA's case, the Dems wanted payback for their belief Putin rigged the 2016 election and to hide all the dirt that is and was going on in Ukraine.[/QUOTE]Yes, I'll be responsible for Ukraine's failure to regain lost territories. Questner and Blood Red are paid Russian propagandists. And one that cracks me up, you and I are cowards. The person or people saying that haven't to my knowledge volunteered to fight on the front lines in Ukraine. I'm not intending to single out Paulie here. Those are just some of the comments posters have made in this thread.

[QUOTE=Elvis2008;2974106]You are as delusional on this as on Covid. Trump ran on peace in Ukraine not war. The support for war among Republicans in Ukraine is dwindling like crazy. [URL]https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/how-stalled-u-s-aid-for-ukraine-exemplifies-gops-softening-stance-on-russia[/URL].[/QUOTE]Yeah, Paulie thought he had a slam dunk with those MSN links. One showed 112 Republicans and no Democrats voting against the Ukraine / Israel / Taiwan aid bill in the house. And in the Senate 15 Republicans voted against the bill and three, including Rand Paul, abstained. Only two Democrats and Bernie Sanders voted against the bill. In this instance I agree with you about Bernie, he did the right thing.

Any Republican voting against Ukraine aid would be accused of voting against help to Israel and Taiwan as well. Ukrainian aid would have gotten less Republican support if it were in a standalone bill.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2974357]The agreement was "torpedoed" by the Kremlin (not Boris Johnson) which at the last minute tried to insert a provision that would give Russia a veto on defense of Ukraine by other countries. That doesn't change that the sides were very close and should have continued talking.[/QUOTE]Talking about what? All you want to do is to talk, talk and talk, like talking is going to make everything better.

The point is that any agreement with Putin never had a chance. Which makes it what? Right, a fantasy.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2974357]I don't see how that happens. And believe that civilians living in Russian-occupied territories would much prefer living in Russian oblasts instead of continuing the war. In fact, I believe the majority would prefer to live in Russia period.[/QUOTE]For one thing it wouldn't matter even if it were true. These territories belong to another country, so who the fuck are you to go in and occupy them? That's an act of aggression and a war crime. How hard is it to comprehend?

But what makes it worse is that isn't true. At first, a significant part of Donbas' population were swayed by incessant Russian propaganda that managed to convince them that Kyiv is attacking their language, but the most powerful Russian argument came along with the Russian armed forces FROM Russia who organized and orchestrated the coup. Igor Girkin / Strelkov, an FSB lieutenant-colonel and his band of opportunists are ultimately responsible for seizure of Donbas.

Read: [URL]https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2024/04/23/10-years-later-russian-volunteer-fighters-recall-fueling-the-war-in-donbas-a84917[/URL].

Then the Russian "management" arrived. The living standards in Donbas had been relatively high, as it was one of the most prosperous regions in Ukraine. In 10 year-time, since 2014 the Russia mafia state has raped and pillaged the region. They divvied it up between their oligarch crime families who robbed everyone blind, destroyed the industries and every resemblance of normalcy. Their industrial landscape is a burned out desert right now.

Read: [URL]https://congress-files.s3.amazonaws.com/2023-08/SSDiD_Ukraine_article_0.pdf[/URL].

Politically, they installed a mafia-controlled dictatorship. People who would question the actions of their rulers would disappear. They have practically decimated the male population of Donbas, grabbing people off the streets and sending them to the frontlines armed with weapons from the WW2. That started even BEFORE the full-scale invasion, but was greatly exacerbated in 2022. The vast majority of these men are dead now, the rest are hiding.

No Tiny. Donbas wouldn't "prefer to live in Russia period". If the AFU were able to reconquer the territory today, Donbas women would line up for a chance to give a free BJ to their Ukrainian liberators. Sorry, make it BBBJ.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2974357]The USA may be on the verge of taking over Panama and Greenland, and invading Mexico to pursue narcos. Apologies for tu quoqing.[/QUOTE]Oh, no you didn't! Ask your BFF Elvis why we're forced to talk about this insanity today. Not my fucking president.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2974332]About 15,000 Russian military died in the Afghanistan war over 11 years. The Pentagon estimated that 115,000 Russians died in Ukraine up to October, 2024. Russia is dead set on not losing this war. The stakes are higher in its view given it borders Ukraine. [/QUOTE]Valid point. I think that Russia can continue with the current loss rate as long as they get enough volunteers from the poor parts of Russia. If they have to mobilize to mobilize in Moscow and St Petersburg, that would be the end of the current regime.

[QUOTE=PaulInZurich;2974522]Valid point. I think that Russia can continue with the current loss rate as long as they get enough volunteers from the poor parts of Russia. If they have to mobilize to mobilize in Moscow and St Petersburg, that would be the end of the current regime.[/QUOTE]Exactly why the Afghanistan war ended for Russia.

[QUOTE=Xpartan;2974441]Talking about what? All you want to do is to talk, talk and talk, like talking is going to make everything better.

The point is that any agreement with Putin never had a chance. Which makes it what? Right, a fantasy.

For one thing it wouldn't matter even if it were true. These territories belong to another country, so who the fuck are you to go in and occupy them? That's an act of aggression and a war crime. How hard is it to comprehend?

But what makes it worse is that isn't true. At first, a significant part of Donbas' population were swayed by incessant Russian propaganda that managed to convince them that Kyiv is attacking their language, but the most powerful Russian argument came along with the Russian armed forces FROM Russia who organized and orchestrated the coup. Igor Girkin / Strelkov, an FSB lieutenant-colonel and his band of opportunists are ultimately responsible for seizure of Donbas.

Read: [URL]https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2024/04/23/10-years-later-russian-volunteer-fighters-recall-fueling-the-war-in-donbas-a84917[/URL].

Then the Russian "management" arrived. The living standards in Donbas had been relatively high, as it was one of the most prosperous regions in Ukraine. In 10 year-time, since 2014 the Russia mafia state has raped and pillaged the region. They divvied it up between their oligarch crime families who robbed everyone blind, destroyed the industries and every resemblance of normalcy. Their industrial landscape is a burned out desert right now.

Read: [URL]https://congress-files.s3.amazonaws.com/2023-08/SSDiD_Ukraine_article_0.pdf[/URL].

Politically, they installed a mafia-controlled dictatorship. People who would question the actions of their rulers would disappear. They have practically decimated the male population of Donbas, grabbing people off the streets and sending them to the frontlines armed with weapons from the WW2. That started even BEFORE the full-scale invasion, but was greatly exacerbated in 2022. The vast majority of these men are dead now, the rest are hiding.

No Tiny. Donbas wouldn't "prefer to live in Russia period". If the AFU were able to reconquer the territory today, Donbas women would line up for a chance to give a free BJ to their Ukrainian liberators. Sorry, make it BBBJ.

Oh, no you didn't! Ask your BFF Elvis why we're forced to talk about this insanity today. Not my fucking president.[/QUOTE]While it didn't change my mind, that's a well-written post with links worth reading, or maybe scanning for the second one. What I'm getting from the Moscow Times piece is that the situation was a complete cluster fuck. You had pro-Maidan and anti-Maidan forces clashing in eastern Ukraine. Then Russian volunteers, initially without government support, entered the fray, which was at some point followed by support from the Russian government. It's interesting to read that some Russian nationalists view the Minsk accords as a betrayal. It sounds like the escalation was not, contrary to what the media claims, driven by Putin, but rather Russian nationalistic sentiment among some groups.

The second link was interesting too. The per capital income of Russia is much higher than Ukraine. As such, I figured economically, in the long term, people living in eastern Ukraine may be better off under Russian rule. The decline in income from 2014 to 2019 is striking.

The polling info I've read indicates that post 2014 and pre 2022, a majority of the population in separatist controlled areas of Donbas preferred to be part of Russia, and vice versa for areas under Ukrainian government control.

I don't know how this gets settled without the two sides talking. Otherwise it goes on forever, which is not good for anyone.

As to Elvis, I don't believe he's as huge a Trump fan as you think. If you give people two bad choices (Harris and Trump), they'll make a bad choice. I don't presume to speak for him, but if Democrats had nominated someone like Joe Manchin that might have given him pause when he voted.