Stupid shit in Medellin

[QUOTE=ShooBree;2480288]
Ireland with their harsh lockdown have one of the highest rates when it comes to deaths per capita in Europe. India had an draconian lockdown, what happened after the lockdown? They saw a rapid spread of COVID-19.
(...)
Anyways, herd immunity is very much in play in certain areas of Sweden. Have you heard of T-cells? Sweden's numbers are looking great, better than other European countries. The WHO praised the Swedish approach.[/QUOTE]I guess you are just trolling, unless your marks in math at high school weren't great.
Ireland: 359 deaths /1 M population.
Sweden: [RED]575[/RED] deaths /1 M population.
([URL]https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/[/URL]).

About the "Draconian lockdown" in India, I can only deduct that either you don't know what is "Draconian", or you don't know what is India.

You can twist facts trying to demonstrate that hot water is colder than ice, but then you should keep thermometers away from your followers.

I take note of your T-cell argument. It's good that Sweden does not need a vaccine anymore. Great!

[QUOTE=BlackPage;2480271]Once again, I must raise a warning when someone makes a wrong statement based on false information. Please be careful.

1) Flattening the curve.
"Overrun hospitals, create a worldwide ventilator shortage, etc. " make more people to die. The percentage of patients who die is not a constant, independent of that. If you slow down the spreading of an epidemic, the percentage of persons who die is much lower than if you let the epidemic to expand uncontrolled. Slowing down the spreading means to [U]save lives[/U], not just delaying the inevitable.
The "people that created the shutdown" did not [I]admit[/I] that the purpose was simply the above, but [I]explained[/I] it to those who did not know.

2) "Puntz offered several examples of the ineffectiveness of a shutdown"?
Also false examples: one is Sweden. Don't be fooled and look at the numbers yourself.
Sweden in Europe is widely recognized as the demonstration of an epic fail, besides the opinion of Mr. Puntz, whatever is his authoritativeness in the area. Sweden has reached 575 deaths /1 M population, opposed to the 49 of Norway, 108 of Denmark, 61 of Finland (neighboring countries). 576 is one of the highest in the world, it pairs USA. In Europe, it is lower only to those countries that were overwhelmed before taking effective measures (Belgium, Spain, UK, Italy). And note that Sweden is not Third World. It has one of the best and most efficient systems of Public Health in the world, for everyone, poor and rich.
Did they reach any "herd immunity" in change of this sacrifice? Not at all. The last epidemiological study reported that, based on serological tests, only 10%-15% population have the antibodies. It is not even understood if any "herd immunity" really exists and how long those antibodies protect, but even having 15% of population immune would be nothing.
So, that strategy made Sweden to suffer many deaths that could be avoided. And without achieving the intended goal. It's a huge responsibility to carry for those who took the wrong decision.[/QUOTE]You make some good points. (You did however edit the responses and attributed the Colombia comment to me in error).

But you did not address the main point. Until when? We can define flatten the curve differently, though I disagree with your point. But the fallacy is. When does the curve end? I hope like hell we develop a vaccine. God knows we're throwing every good mind at it. Efficacy is my concern. We are so early on in the process, we don't know what we need to know, I. E. Mutations. Dare I bring up the flu shot? Hell, the common cold? At this point, all we have is hope. But again, I ask, quarantine until when? Because if these early vaccine candidates do not pan out, then what? Another year of social distancing amd quarantine? That is not how we should live. I'm not 80 years old but I'd be damned to live out my final years as a hermit. I totally understand those that feel true fear. But the impacts of shutdowns are evident all around us. And that's where you have to draw the line. How much are we willing to give up? And even more important, are we willing to give it up indefinitely? Because that's the point we are at.

As for Europe, or any country for that matter. Social norms vary so greatly. Basic freedoms vary greatly. Quality of care varies greatly. So without question there is some validity to the comparisons but there are also untold variables. And BTW, what's going on in Europe in the last few weeks? If that's utopia, well, you can keep it because their numbers are spiking.

Herd immunity is absolutely one of my hopes. There's certainly no guarantee that it is even possible. I'm not familiar with that study in Sweeden but in the US, we are welll past 10-15%. So why is that a hope of mine? Because at this point that 60-65% threshold might be sooner than a viable vaccine. But again, is that what we're waiting for? Something that might never come? It's sad and difficult to grasp. And I think we as humans have a need to feel in control.

Lastly, any plan is only as effective as its adherence. Point taken about the car. But unless we quarantine literally everyone for a 2-3 week period. Including essential workers, it is ineffective. Are we to believe those grocery store clerks cannot carry the virus, as an example? I do NOT want to make this political at all. But I am reminded of Biden's national mask mandate. Three months of wearing a mask will solve this. Really? No. It is just more packaging and more false promise or false hope. Short ot an absolute quarantine (and I cannot fathom the loss of life that would cause), we are without a viable solution at this point.

I respect your opinions Black Page. While we disagree and you may believe I'm uneducated, foolish and countless other attributes, I appreciate your thoughtful response and approach.

[QUOTE=BlackPage;2480321]I guess you are just trolling, unless your marks in math at high school weren't great.
Ireland: 359 deaths /1 M population.
Sweden: [RED]575[/RED] deaths /1 M population.
([URL]https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/[/URL]).

About the "Draconian lockdown" in India, I can only deduct that either you don't know what is "Draconian", or you don't know what is India.

You can twist facts trying to demonstrate that hot water is colder than ice, but then you should keep thermometers away from your followers.

I take note of your T-cell argument. It's good that Sweden does not need a vaccine anymore. Great![/QUOTE]I never wrote that Ireland had more deaths per capita than Sweden. I wrote that they are among the worst affected countries in Europe. I don't think that it's a controversial statement.

In India the police used bamboo sticks to beat people going out to shop for food, you don't consider that to be over the top? I know that plenty of considered the Indian response to be draconian.

Almost every country said that the goal was to "flatten the curve", Sweden succeeded doing so without any lockdown.

I won't any vaccine, I remember what happened last time when we were supposed to be vaccinated against the swine flue. People got scared for life, I much rather get COVID-19 than narcolepsy.

[QUOTE=Dcrist0527;2480355]
I respect your opinions Black Page. While we disagree and you may believe I'm uneducated, foolish and countless other attributes, I appreciate your thoughtful response and approach.[/QUOTE]I never thought you are uneducated and such. Your very polite and well written post demonstrates the opposite. Something is debatable, but there is a lot of good sense in it.

I said to pay attention to ignorant ones who spread false information. After 10 times something is repeated and nobody objects even the obvious, it becomes true for some.

P.S. Sorry for attributing you the Colombia statement. A mistake without intention.

[QUOTE=ChuchoLoco;2480301]It became political when the chosen one said that it was all a democratic hoax. He said that at the beginning when he should have been working on a solution which he still hasn't done. How about his news conference with his buddy the pillow guy? What a joke! Remember? Or is your memory limited to his last lie which occurs daily?[/QUOTE]So what CL? Trump said HCQ worked, and the Democrats went off on how ineffective and unsafe it was. The same was true for the antibody treatment Trump touted.

If Trump said that bleach didn't work for the virus and not to drink it, there would have been thousands of Democrats dead for drinking bleach.

You can make fun of Trump all you want it is not going to help. What was Trump's plan, and what was Biden's?

You Democrats want to run on how you manage Seattle, Portland, Chicago, Baltimore, and New York and proclaim you know what you are doing? Have at it. Maybe you can take a page from Paulie and go off on how well New York handled the virus. Gee, that is a real winner.

You all pinned all your hopes on the virus, made it seem like Trump was an idiot for not listening to the experts. What are the experts advocating now? First, it was flatten the curve. Then it was a vaccine will save us. Billions later spent on vaccines advocated by flip flop Fauci the vaccinologist and now the vaccines are not the silver bullet they were supposed to be.

So now you know what the experts will say? It does not matter. The experts asked us to sacrifice, and we sacrificed with no payoff. It is happening in the USA and in Peru and in Colombia.

What is going to happen, what already is happening is people have accepted they are going to have live with the virus and that despite all the Democratic bullshit about Trump not listening to the experts, the people have already concluded the so called experts did not know what they were talking about.

[QUOTE=Elvis2008;2480395]So what CL? Trump said HCQ worked, and the Democrats went off on how ineffective and unsafe it was. The same was true for the antibody treatment Trump touted.

If Trump said that bleach didn't work for the virus and not to drink it, there would have been thousands of Democrats dead for drinking bleach.

You can make fun of Trump all you want it is not going to help. What was Trump's plan, and what was Biden's?

You Democrats want to run on how you manage Seattle, Portland, Chicago, Baltimore, and New York and proclaim you know what you are doing? Have at it. Maybe you can take a page from Paulie and go off on how well New York handled the virus. Gee, that is a real winner.

You all pinned all your hopes on the virus, made it seem like Trump was an idiot for not listening to the experts. What are the experts advocating now? First, it was flatten the curve. Then it was a vaccine will save us. Billions later spent on vaccines advocated by flip flop Fauci the vaccinologist and now the vaccines are not the silver bullet they were supposed to be.

So now you know what the experts will say? It does not matter. The experts asked us to sacrifice, and we sacrificed with no payoff. It is happening in the USA and in Peru and in Colombia.

What is going to happen, what already is happening is people have accepted they are going to have live with the virus and that despite all the Democratic bullshit about Trump not listening to the experts, the people have already concluded the so called experts did not know what they were talking about.[/QUOTE]Could not agree more.

The Tall Man.

[QUOTE=Elvis2008;2480395]So what CL? Trump said HCQ worked, and the Democrats went off on how ineffective and unsafe it was. The same was true for the antibody treatment Trump touted.

If Trump said that bleach didn't work for the virus and not to drink it, there would have been thousands of Democrats dead for drinking bleach.

You can make fun of Trump all you want it is not going to help. What was Trump's plan, and what was Biden's?

You Democrats want to run on how you manage Seattle, Portland, Chicago, Baltimore, and New York and proclaim you know what you are doing? Have at it. Maybe you can take a page from Paulie and go off on how well New York handled the virus. Gee, that is a real winner.

You all pinned all your hopes on the virus, made it seem like Trump was an idiot for not listening to the experts. What are the experts advocating now? First, it was flatten the curve. Then it was a vaccine will save us. Billions later spent on vaccines advocated by flip flop Fauci the vaccinologist and now the vaccines are not the silver bullet they were supposed to be..[/QUOTE]I answered your question E. You must remember when he said it was a Democratic hoax don't you? In any event, I keep hearing everyday of people I know or are acquainted with getting infected, more than ever. Thankfully most survive and have mild symptoms. A few have been hospitalized. Some are die hard are's and others the's so it don't matter. If it started with one person and has spread worldwide, how can it ever be eliminated with millions now infected?

What I really don't understand is how China, where it all began, has so few deaths.

Oh well, enough said. Time to read another who killed JFK book.

Anybody know a Viking who played basketball?

[QUOTE=BlackPage;2480321]I guess you are just trolling, unless your marks in math at high school weren't great.
Ireland: 359 deaths /1 M population.
Sweden: [RED]575[/RED] deaths /1 M population.
([URL]https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/[/URL]).
[/QUOTE]A hypothetical example, if a person dies on the 10th year of a lock down that lasted more than 10 years. This person is without job and miserable during the time of lock down. The number of years does not really matter but I will just stick with 10 for argument's sack.

When this person dies, do you considered him died of natural cause, or died from Covid?

What would your reply be if I say this person died as soon as the lock down started?

[QUOTE=Elvis2008;2480395]You Democrats want to run on how you manage Seattle, Portland, Chicago, Baltimore, and New York and proclaim you know what you are doing? Have at it. Maybe you can take a page from Paulie and go off on how well New York handled the virus. Gee, that is a real winner.

....

So now you know what the experts will say? It does not matter. The experts asked us to sacrifice, and we sacrificed with no payoff. It is happening in the USA and in Peru and in Colombia.
[/QUOTE]My guess is that the Democrats will get similar result as the Republicans because they will listen to the same experts as Republicans. and Democrats will have the same bureaucrats to execute the plan. The problem with these public officials is that they follow a script. If everything fit the script, they think they are doing their jobs. If they find a COVID cluster, and they finds guidelines are followed, most of them won't take additional action and will think it is Ok.

I do think we need to listen to experts, multiple types of experts actually, economists, mental health professionals, and engineers who know how to devise and execute plan. IMO, what went wrong is that the government only listens to one type of experts with no deadline. And unfortunately, the only experts they listen to have been wrong on multiple occasions.

BTW, I do think the lock down works as I have personally experience it in both successful and unsuccessful lock down. All I can say is a successful lock down is very different from an unsuccessful ones so they are not the same thing.

If US uses a software engineer to tackle this as a sorting algorithm, i think the lock down will have a better chance to be successful. The testing is slow because it uses bubble sort, they should figure out a way to use quicksort instead

[QUOTE=ChuchoLoco;2480593]I answered your question E. You must remember when he said it was a Democratic hoax don't you?[/QUOTE]Trump never said the virus was a hoax. He said the Democrats accusing him of being responsible for the virus was their new hoax.

[QUOTE=FunLuvr;2480705]Trump never said the virus was a hoax. He said the Democrats accusing him of being responsible for the virus was their new hoax.[/QUOTE]Yes he did. It's on tape. I saw it live and many times since. But why didn't E answer that he remembered it in either form? That's when it became political either way you care to remember it.

[QUOTE=Nounce;2480654]My guess is that the Democrats will get similar result as the Republicans because they will listen to the same experts as Republicans. and Democrats will have the same bureaucrats to execute the plan.[/QUOTE]I agree, but for different reasons. The virus is going to do what is going to do. The only people who can slow it down are those who are sick and those who treat the sick. Experts only have influence if their advice is complied with.

[QUOTE=Nounce;2480654]I do think we need to listen to experts, multiple types of experts actually, economists, mental health professionals, and engineers who know how to devise and execute plan. IMO, what went wrong is that the government only listens to one type of experts with no deadline. And unfortunately, the only experts they listen to have been wrong on multiple occasions.[/QUOTE]What I see are politicians wanting their POV supported, and they then find experts who support it. To get people to comply with expert advice when that advice requires sacrifice, citizens have to buy into the advice. They have to believe the expert's motives are pure, free from commercial influence, and that those experts walk the walk. If the experts do not know something, they need to say they do not know.

When you start handing out $1000 citations for people not wearing masks, you are going to have the public question your motivation.

And you have to be nimble and change things based on the data and admit it when you were wrong. The new data on masks was great. The data showed that you can open hair salons if everyone wears their masks. So why were they still shut down?

Then you have Pelosi and the hair salon? Yeah, Fox news ran the clip and humiliated Pelosi, but if every time an elite screws up they turn it into a Dem-Republican thing, the elites can get away with anything.

The issue really is not Pelosi. It is the elites v. Hair stylists / the citizens. The elites have put hair stylists out of business because supposedly they were not essential well for us. For Pelosi and the elites, getting their hair styled was essential.

How many hair stylists who lost their businesses have said fuck it and just collect unemployment, go on welfare, or refuse to comply with the expert advice now? Has the lockdown worked for hair stylists or anyone with professions like theirs?

All I see are experts mouthing off about the benefits of lockdowns. I see no one talking about their downsides. The people who wanted the economics of a lockdown to be addressed were shouted down as putting money before lives. For the Americas, locking down healthy people cost a whole lot of people a whole lot of money and as far as I see provided very little benefit. For Asia, the results were far different.

If the elites want to blame the public for this, then they better be walking the walk. The problem I have with Democrats is that they believe everyone in government save for Trump is as pure as the driven snow. They cannot say Pelosi fucked up. They cannot say Fauci lied when he said he was massively dehydrated. It is always, "Well, compared to Trump" "Trump didn't wear a mask either" or all this other drivel.

[QUOTE=ChuchoLoco;2480818]Yes he did. It's on tape. I saw it live and many times since. But why didn't E answer that he remembered it in either form? That's when it became political either way you care to remember it.[/QUOTE]Can you share the link?

[QUOTE=ChuchoLoco;2480818]Yes he did. It's on tape. I saw it live and many times since. But why didn't E answer that he remembered it in either form? That's when it became political either way you care to remember it.[/QUOTE]Here's a link from FactCheck. Org, which is not a Trump sympathizer, explaining the whole thing: [URL]https://www.factcheck.org/2020/04/democratic-ad-twists-trumps-hoax-comment/[/URL]
Just in case you don't want to follow that link, here is a transcript of what Trump said: "Trump, Feb. 28: Now the Democrats are politicizing the coronavirus, you know that right? Coronavirus, they're politicizing it. We did one of the great jobs. You say, "How's President Trump doing?" They go, "Oh, not good, not good. " They have no clue. They don't have any clue. They can't even count their votes in Iowa. They can't even count. No, they can't. They can't count their votes.

One of my people came up to me and said, "Mr. President, they tried to beat you on Russia, Russia, Russia." That didn't work out too well. They couldn't do it. They tried the impeachment hoax. That was on a perfect conversation. They tried anything. They tried it over and over. They've been doing it since you got in. It's all turning. They lost. It's all turning. Think of it. Think of it. And this is their new hoax. ".

[QUOTE=ChuchoLoco;2480818]Yes he did. It's on tape. I saw it live and many times since. But why didn't E answer that he remembered it in either form? That's when it became political either way you care to remember it.[/QUOTE]Don't you ever wonder how much your hate for Trump will allow you to be manipulated by others for their political and financial gain?