Safe Sex and Sex Related Discussions in Thailand

Aaarrrggghhh... it does not end.

OK.

Correct, there is a lot nonsense written about HIV/AIDS, especially in websites. Whether the website I mentioned here contains shit - everybody might judge by himself, just read it:

[URL]http://www.sfaf.org/aids101/transmission.html[/URL]

And what The Traveler and Opebo are doing - most likely they have their own risk assessment... :) .

BTW, much more interesting: an official HIV infection rate for sex workers published in the Bangkok Post from Monday: [b][size=+2] 10.8 % [/size][/b] . Number from a government agency, don't remember the name in the moment.


Giotto

Had a discussion with one girl from Biergarten last Saturday, during the Ice Hockey event. She gave me a short lesson about HIV/Aids.

She had a friend which had AIDS ("HIV positive"). This friend was married and had (necessarily) a husband. Both never use condoms, and the husband still has no "AIDS" (is still HIV negative).

I asked: "What you want to tell me with that?"

She answered: "They don't use condom, and he not become infected!"

I said: "Wow!"

She looked at me with the knowledge of a teacher!

------

I think I don't have to mention here in this forum that THIS IS DANGEROUS NONSENSE! There are many cases like this described in the internet, and some "horse" doctors support funny theories - but THAT IS RUSSIAN ROULETTE!

[b]Take condoms, guys, ALWAYS.[/b]


Giotto


PS: Side Note: Biergarten is DANGEROUS (in my POV).

[QUOTE=Giotto]

PS: Side Note: Biergarten is DANGEROUS (in my POV).[/QUOTE]

Mr. G:

Only been to Biergarten a couple of times for TG and have been to Gulliver (but for dinner only). But have heard/read that the girls from Biergarten head over to Gulliver later in the evening? If so, that would mean same warning for Gulliver...right?

[QUOTE=Giotto]Had a discussion with one girl from Biergarten last Saturday, during the Ice Hockey event. She gave me a short lesson about HIV/Aids.

She had a friend which had AIDS ("HIV positive"). This friend was married and had (necessarily) a husband. Both never use condoms, and the husband still has no "AIDS" (is still HIV negative).

I asked: "What you want to tell me with that?"

She answered: "They don't use condom, and he not become infected!"

I said: "Wow!"

She looked at me with the knowledge of a teacher!

------

I think I don't have to mention here in this forum that THIS IS DANGEROUS NONSENSE! There are many cases like this described in the internet, and some "horse" doctors support funny theories - but THAT IS RUSSIAN ROULETTE!

[b]Take condoms, guys, ALWAYS.[/b]


Giotto


PS: Side Note: Biergarten is DANGEROUS (in my POV).[/QUOTE]

It's not really russian roulette in my eyes. If she takes her meds regularly her viral load is probably at minute levels in her blood which means it will not be present in her vaginal fluids at all. That is the cold hard fact about HIV certain PC groups try to always dismiss, or base all there findings on certain conclusions with a very limited amount of data behind them. Even if her viral load was high (the onset of infection) it is unlikely to show up in large quantities in her vagina. During her period perhaps but it still would be at a low level and extremely unlikely to be passed to a male partner. FACT not theory.

I will say that this particular woman you are referring to is perhaps putting her husband at a greater risk of transmission than say a man who goes around barebacking random girls (pro or non), because usually (as any doctor who has done extensive research in STDs will tell you) it usually takes multiple exposures to the virus to become infected. FACT not theory.

HIV is and always was a blood borne pathogen, the primary method of transmission is and always has been through blood contact. Semen is the fluid that can also carry it but in less significant quantities. Vaginal fluid has never been scientifically proven to have a comparable level of the virus to the former two. FACT not theory.

[QUOTE=Giotto]Aaarrrggghhh... it does not end.

..........
BTW, much more interesting: an official HIV infection rate for sex workers published in the Bangkok Post from Monday: [b][size=+2] 10.8 % [/size][/b] . Number from a government agency, don't remember the name in the moment.


Giotto[/QUOTE]

This info give us the best chance to probebly forever exchange our risk asessment opinions in judging the %age of girls HIV infected.

Let me start with some examples:

10,8% average of sex workers could give us:

13% Pattaya and 9 % Bangkok average change of beeing affected.

Starting from the 9% Bangkok average rate probably 5 % GoGo Girls (who are sometimes, but not always checked) and 15% Biergarden and 13,5% Gulivers and 2% Giotto's Lodge Sports bar girls and 25% Opepo's favourite girls.

Just for example.

other Polls?

regards

Brain666

[QUOTE=Traveler1234]Mr. G:

Only been to Biergarten a couple of times for TG and have been to Gulliver (but for dinner only). But have heard/read that the girls from Biergarten head over to Gulliver later in the evening? If so, that would mean same warning for Gulliver...right?[/QUOTE]Traveler1234,

If you want my honest opinion - YES! YES! YES! And that is valid for ALL FREELANCER BARS in Thailand, including CM2 and Spasso!

I know that many people don't want to hear that.

Let me tell you a bit about my experiences. I started my mongering in Asia in 1998 in Singapore, Orchard Tower. There are places where freelancers work. A place (Top Ten), where a girl costs S$ 300.00 (and more) for a night (that time MORE THAN THAT!). Top Ten was (now closed) an up-market place in Singapore.

I got into contact with a group if Pattaya working girls, all traveling to Singapore, Hongkong - some of them to Phuket (Banana). I still keep contact to ONE girl of this group ( Nok Noi, a real friend, never slept with her. When she talked about men, she always added: Why are all of them so stupid? ) , who is today 47 years old.

HIV / AIDS has left a deep scar in this group. The sister of my friend died of AIDS a year ago, and so did 4 other members of this group. Another 4 are infected with HIV and need money to buy the American cocktails every month. Some of this group - are not infected, they are the minority!

That is a group of women which were all born in the 70th or early 80th.

- I am dealing with some ignorants here reg. this issue sometimes, which add some high sophisticated "information" - ok, guys, just go ahead. That helps nobody. A realistic view on the facts is needed! -

The sister - I talked to her in Sriracha in 1999, when the infection of one of her friends was suddenly obvious, and I tried to convince her to make a test. Her answer was: " I don't want to know!"

And: "I had so many times sex without condom - those guys don't want to use condoms! I cannot make money if I always insist on condoms! I am scared. I don't want to know!"

[b]She was talking about "those guys" - she talked about YOU (including me). We all don't like condoms. And that's the problem!!! If we like somebody, if we love somebody - we don't want this damned rubber![/b]

She died in 2005. She was a young woman in her 30ties.

- When I wrote about risk assessment in this forum I wanted to help, to give a kind if decision matrix how to evaluate the risk - I know what I wrote, believe me. And if I warned about Biergarten - I know what I do, too.

I know that all that sounds arrogant. AND I DON'T CARE. Because I really know what I am talking about. -

Her sister - I got a phonecall, that she was in a hospital. She could not talk any more, had lost consciousness. That time I was in Singapore. I flew over there, from the airport a taxi to Sriracha. I found here in a hospital, in a huge room together with 100 other patients, nearly dead.

I arranged a transfer for next morning to Pattaya International Hospital. She stayed there for 10 days in intensive care. And I paid for that. AND I KNOW THAT SOMEBODY OUT THERE NOW WANTS TO KNOW: Why did you pay? - Because there was enough money to pay on my bank account...

She had Meningitis that time, one ot the killer infections when the immunization system is down. She survived...but she was blind afterwards.

I met her again 6 month later in her house in Pattaya which a customer had bought for her before. She asked me to help her with the costs of medicaments that time (approx. US $ 900,00 per month). I told her to sell the house, move back to her hometown (somewhere nearby Korat) and buy medicaments from that sales revenues...

Did I mention her Thai boyfriend? A motorbike-taxi driver! I talked to him, too, make a test! "I am sure I am infected - I don't want to know it!"

BTW: We are talking about HIV / AIDS here.

She stayed with her boyfriend in that house, who took care of her, and she never sold that house. The first months after I had met her she still called and asked for money - but then the calls stopped. Until last year, when her sister called me to tell me that the end was near...

I went there, to her house, one last time. She looked like a skeleton, she could hardly talk, and the skin lesions in her face were clearly visible. When she heard my voice she cried. She talked about Singapore, about the life there, her time there, how happy she was, and what misery her life was now. She only wanted to talk about Singapore. And she told me that I was the only one of her old customers who had visited her in the last few years.

She died a few weeks later.

She was a freelancer, beautiful, one of the stunners made for YOU OUT THERE, working in Singapore, Hongkong and Bangkok (sometimes).

I will never forget her. I liked her very much.

[b]Today - I am still HIV-negative because we always used condoms. But she is dead.[/b]


Giotto

Your report was excellent and a big eyeopener, lots of us would get carried away, I know I did this one time, (quite drunk) on that occasion, but yes we gotta wear condoms, if not for us, then for others attached to us.

However, is a condom a real protector, does it ensure 100% protection,

And what about BBBJ, does that affect you too, what about freelancers does one run a greater risk of getting HIV if you sleep with them, I have heard go go bar /massage girls undergo more tests as a routine vis. A vis. Freelancers.

What is your opinion.

BT.

[QUOTE=Giotto]Traveler1234,

If you want my honest opinion - YES! YES! YES! And that is valid for ALL FREELANCER BARS in Thailand, including CM2 and Spasso!

I know that many people don't want to hear that.

Let me tell you a bit about my experiences. I started my mongering in Asia in 1998 in Singapore, Orchard Tower. There are places where freelancers work. A place (Top Ten), where a girl for a night costs S$ 300.00 (and more) for a night (that time MORE THAN THAT!). Top Ten is an up-market place in Singapore.

I got into contact with a group if Pattaya working girls, all traveling to Singapore, Hongkong - some of them to Phuket (Banana). I still keep contact to ONE girl of this group ( Nok Noi, a real friend, never slept with her. When she talked about men, she always added: Why are all of them so stupid? ) , who is today 47 years old.

HIV / AIDS has left a deep scar in this group. The sister of my friend died of AIDS a year ago, and so did 4 other members of this group. Another 4 are infected with HIV and need money to buy the American cocktails every month. Some of this group, the minority - are not infected! (To play with words is a nice game, isn't it??? )

That is a group of women which were all born in the 70th or early 80th.

- I am dealing with some ignorants here reg. this issue sometimes, which add some high sophisticated "information" - ok, guys, just go ahead. That helps nobody. A realistic view on the facts is needed! -

The sister - I talked to her in Sriracha in 1999, when the infection of one of her friends was suddenly obvious, and I tried to convince her to make a test. Her answer was: " I don't want to know!"

And: "I had so many times sex without condom - those guys don't want to use condoms! I cannot make money if I always insist on condoms! I am scared. I don't want to know!"

[b]She was talking about "those guys" - she talked about YOU (including me). We all don't like condoms. And that's the problem!!! If we like somebody, if we love somebody - we don't want this damned rubber![/b]

She died in 2005. She was a young woman in her 30ties.

- When I wrote about risk assessment in this forum I wanted to help, to give a kind if decision matrix how to evaluate the risk - I know what I wrote, believe me. And if I warned about Biergarten - I know what I do, too.

I know that all that sounds arrogant. AND I DON'T CARE. Because I really know what I am talking about. -

Her sister - I got a phonecall, that she was in a hospital. She could not talk any more, had lost consciousness. That time I was in Singapore. I flew over there, from the airport a taxi to Sriracha. I found here in a hospital, in a huge room together with 100 other patients, nearly dead.

I arranged a transfer for next morning to Pattaya International Hospital. She stayed there for 10 days in intensive care. And I paid for that. AND I KNOW THAT SOMEBODY OUT THERE NOW WANTS TO KNOW: Why did you pay? - Because there was enough money to pay on my bank account...

She had Meningitis that time, one ot the killer infections when the immunization system is down. She survived...but she was blind afterwards.

I met her again 6 month later in her house in Pattaya which a customer had bought for her before. She asked me to help her with the costs of medicaments that time (approx. US $ 900,00 per month). I told her to sell the house, move back to her hometown (somewhere nearby Korat) and buy medicaments from that sales revenues...

Did I mention her Thai boyfriend? A motorbyke taxi driver! I talked to him, too, make a test! "I am sure I am infected - I don't want to know it!"

BTW: We are talking about HIV / AIDS here.

She stayed with her boyfriend in that house, who took care of her, and she never sold that house. The first months after I had met her she still called and asked for money - but then the calls stopped. Until last year, when her sister called me to tell me that the end was near...

I went there, to her house, one last time. She looked like a skeleton, she could hardly talk, and the skin lesions in her face were clearly visible. Whe she heard my voice she cried. She talked about Singapore, about the life there, her time there, how happy she was, and what misery her life was now. She only wanted to talk about Singapore.

She died a few weeks later.

She was a freelancer, beautiful, one of the stunners made for YOU OUT THERE, working in Singapore, Hongkong and Bangkok (sometimes).

I will never forget her. I liked her very much.

[b]Today - I am still HIV-negative because we always used condoms. But she is dead.[/b]


Giotto[/QUOTE]

Coincidentally, I wore a condom for the first time in years last night - though only briefly. A more detailed report may soon be found in the 'Other Areas' section.

A girl insisted quite strongly upon one, and a friend had just instructed me in a condom-breaking technique he normally uses. Apparently one 'leaves a bubble at the tip', and then thrusts very vigorously in the doggy style postion before the girl has time to lubricate. He said it regularly works for him, alas not for me. It probably did not help that I was not yet fully rigid - another side effect of condom usage.

However the condom was absurdly small and uncomfortable, and after a few minutes I pulled out and found a way to pursuade the girl to allow bareback. This method involved considerable monetary cost to myself, but it was worth it.

Lastly, even from those few minutes I was reminded how awful those things are - how can you guys not only use them, but travel thousands of miles at considerable expense to fuck a rubber rather than a girl?

[QUOTE=SweetAndBitter]There is no 100% in the universe!

Think about shaving wounds, scratches or did you use a full body suit? :-))

Cheers,

SAB[/QUOTE]
I don't shave my private parts!

[QUOTE=Boy Toy]Your report was excellent and a big eyeopener, lots of us would get carried away, I know I did this one time, (quite drunk) on that occasion, but yes we gotta wear condoms, if not for us, then for others attached to us.

However, is a condom a real protector, does it ensure 100% protection,

And what about BBBJ, does that affect you too, what about freelancers does one run a greater risk of getting HIV if you sleep with them, I have heard go go bar /massage girls undergo more tests as a routine vis. A vis. Freelancers.

What is your opinion.

BT.[/QUOTE]Boy Toy,

The story below is only one of the HIV / AIDS stories I got into contact with during my 10 years here in Asia. There are the other stories of co-workers, friends, staff, neighbors etc. who got infected - somehow.

Today I still read the latest news of the HIV / AIDS science, and I signed up for many news letters. There are better and worse websites, and the mentioned site from the San Francisco AIDS Foundation is one of the best and most informative for an average non-scientist:

[URL]http://www.sfaf.org[/URL]

Some basic statements reg. the questions:

In general the HIV virus is NOT EASY to transfer, it is a huge virus/DNS structure. Other viruses are much more infectious (eg. Hepatitis). For that there are SOME medical scientists who are stating that even unbroken mucous membrane is a sufficient barrier against the virus and does NOT ALLOW an infection, IF the partners are not infected with other STDs(!!).

Nevertheless: There are definitely many cases in which the infection happened in ONE SINGLE UNPROTECTED SEXUAL ACT.

Rule: The mucous membrane MUST BE PROTECTED during intercourse, and that can only be done with a condom (if you want to have intercourse).

A condom secures, if used correctly and if it does not break, a protection of close to 100 %.

[b]Oral sex:[/b]

Generally the risk is minimal, for the receiving person (that is you if you receive a BBBJ) close to zero. The only remaining risk here comes from the possibility that the giving person has blood in his mouth (wounds from toothrush etc. ).

[URL]http://www.sfaf.org/aids101/sexual.html#oral[/URL]

Remaining risk factors are:

- holes / microscopic cuts in the condom
- cuts / wounds in the penis root area
- cuts / wounds at other areas of the normal skin which come into contact with body fluids.
- and others (a long list).

All this remaining risks are so extremely small, that everybody must evaluate for himself whether it is possible and useful to implement measures for a protection against those cases. Those risks are statistically not measurable.

[b][u]Final Statement:[/u] The biggest risk factor are we ourselves, getting carried away during the sexual act and forgetting to use the condom. And afterwards, if the worst case scenario has happened, most of us will definitely NOT tell the truth and insist on the fact, that we always used a condom. Most of us will lie![/b]


Giotto

[QUOTE=Opebo]Coincidentally, I wore a condom for the first time in years last night - though only briefly. A more detailed report may soon be found in the 'Other Areas' section.

A girl insisted quite strongly upon one, and a friend had just instructed me in a condom-breaking technique he normally uses. Apparently one 'leaves a bubble at the tip', and then thrusts very vigorously in the doggy style postion before the girl has time to lubricate. He said it regularly works for him, alas not for me. It probably did not help that I was not yet fully rigid - another side effect of condom usage.
[/QUOTE]

You know I am one of those guys who really doesn't care if a guy wants to go around barebacking fucking, that is really up to you. But what I just read is what really makes my blood boil. If the girl insited on using a condom then you use it, trying methods to break it is criminal and only a low life would do that. That is shameful behaviour and sadly not an uncommon one even in my home Australia. I reckon anyone who whips the condom off or breaks it on purpose should have his dick cut off.

[quote=Jc373]...If the girl insited on using a condom then you use it, trying methods to break it is criminal and [red]only a low life would do that[/red]. That is shameful behaviour and sadly not an uncommon one even in my home Australia. I reckon anyone who whips the condom off or breaks it on purpose should have his dick cut off.[/quote]
I second that. Call it attempted murder. I don't even consider to answer such loosers. I have reported this to Jackson and I hope he will delete it.

[QUOTE=Giotto]... - When I wrote about risk assessment in this forum I wanted to help, to give a kind if decision matrix how to evaluate the risk - I know what I wrote, believe me. And if I warned about Biergarten - I know what I do, too...
[/QUOTE]
Giotto,

I do not question your intentions, but the quality of your advice.

There are far too many factors and circumstances involved for any "rule of thumb" like the ones you provided to us.
You said for example, that a bar girl poses a higher risk than a gogo girl and that a younger girl poses a lower risk than an older one. But you still haven't answered my question if a younger bar girl poses a lower or higher risk than an older gogo girl ? Why did you refrain to answer ?

Did you consider that a younger girl may have more customers than an older one due to being younger and (hopefully) better looking ?
Did you also consider that a younger girl may be less self secure and may allow bareback sex while an older women has enough self confidence and may turn down customers who try to avoid the use of condoms ?
Of course, older women may also be more "desperate" to get a customer, we will never know. We also don't know what those girls will do besides her jobs. Some may work as freelancers, others may just stay at home or taking care of other "serious" business. We also don't know who will avoid the required tests at some gogos (it's quite easy as you know) or how long they are involved in this sort of biz.

Acting based on your assumptions about a girl - without knowing anything about her at all - is not a very smart approach and contains a great deal of cause of fault.

In short, this issue is far too complex for any "rules of engagement" which depend on the age, workplace or any other attribute of the girls. Therefore any advice that relies on those attributes is bad advice and in this context dangerous.

IMHO there is only one way to play the game, expect all girls to bear the same risk and due to that be as careful as you can and treat them all the same.

[QUOTE=The Traveler]Giotto,


IMHO there is only one way to play the game, expect all girls to bear the same risk and due to that be as careful as you can and treat them all the same.[/QUOTE]

Spot on. In my professions over the years- police and prison, we used the term 'universal precautions'. That means assume that everyone you come in contact with has a blood bourne infectious disease.

It shouldn't be about risk assessment, it should be about risk minimisation, as the quote says, treat them all the same. Cover up each time, every time. For those of you from the UK in the old days- remember Jimmy Saville- clunk click every trip!

I was going to post a reply to Opebo's posting, but frankly, even after 20 years in law enforcement the man's actions and callous disregard for the health and safety of others disgusts me so much that I would write an essay that would probably get me banned from this forum forever. I have met some cold, calculating, callous evil men in my time, but Opebo, well, I'll leave the inference up to everyone else.
Pete

[QUOTE=The Traveler]Giotto,
...
There are far too many factors and circumstances involved for any "rule of thumb" like the ones you provided to us.
You said for example, that a bar girl poses a higher risk than a gogo girl and that a younger girl poses a lower risk than an older one. But you still haven't answered my question if a younger bar girl poses a lower or higher risk than an older gogo girl ? Why did you refrain to answer ?
...
[/QUOTE]The Traveler,

I did not respond to your question because I am too polite.

The question is not very clever. Just check out what a decision matrix is, and then combine the factors, based on your personal evaluation of each single risk factor. Then you get the combination of the risk factors, and how you personally deal with it.

If you need further information I will explain to you what a decision matrix is, but I think it does not belong here.

Regarding younger girls: I don't really think that we have to discuss that, too. It is a question of logic. Older girls went through the same life period as young girls, and the time period they are older. Logically that can only add risk, but not reduce it. They furthermore lived in a time when the knowledge about HIV was limited - that adds additional risks, too.

I stick to exactly what I wrote in my report. It is my opinion, and you are entitled to have a different one.



Giotto