Phnom Penh

[QUOTE=Volterra;2773817]
I can already anticipate the vitriolic responses I'll get from some old Cambodia hands who know the game inside and out (and some who can speak Khmer), but I have to assure these guys that it's anything but a fun fest for guys like me who want more variety of choices beyond the chaotic hostess clubs, avaricious Viets online, and a couple after hour clubs that would get old in a week.
[/QUOTE]I doubt you will get any vitriolic responses here. Your observations seem reasonable and accurate.

But can I add something about the Hostess Bars (not aimed at you)?

Not so long ago in mongering memory foreigners were paying $5 a throw, later $10 in their hotel rooms for many, many years.

I've seen comments from tourists (like Ed Sweeney mentioned previously) that they are going into HBs and buying lady drinks for anything between $4 and $8. One bar (Billionaire) was reported to be charging a $30 fee before a hostess would even sit with you. A visitor to Darlin' Darlin' reported that when he said Hello, to a girl sitting at the bar she snapped back at him 'You want speak, pay 20 dollar. MONEY NOW!

I have to ask, when punters are giving them money for nothing via lady drinks, bar fines, extra tips, not refusing to pay or even noticing when their bills are padded, why on earth would any of these women be prepared to engage in sexual activity with these guys? These places are clip joints.

When the first of them opened they were a novelty that attracted some. And admittedly they were quite different then, a bit like LE Cyrce style but with some decent looking women. However, it was the thin end of the wedge. As punters didn't seem to mind being overcharged or even cheated, the service attitudes only turned nastier. The more you give, the less you get. And while to many it was still 'cheaper than Thailand' it wasn't going to last. What everyone finally discovers, even those with the deepest pockets, is that they will eventually spoil the scene. Even for themselves.

It's said that middle-class tourists like to travel to unspoiled destinations. And spoil them. Substitute 'sex' for 'middle-class'.

These Hostess Bars are tuning into Incel Bars.

As to the Viets online and at clubs, they are almost entirely supported by their Chinese clientele. There are plenty of venues where you can pay $200-500 for an hour with Thais, Viets, even Koreans. Some with fancy rooms but the service will inevitably feel fake and clinical. You can have a lot more fun with a farm fresh 19 yo than an ageing professional with a nose and boob job and a photshopped portfolio on Facebook.

But TLDR. Phnom Penh is no longer an attractive P4 P destination, hasn't been for many years, and we know why.

Unfortunately this is the fate of all things good. When too many people know about the good things they become shit. The internet has just sped up its demise. This website does not help in the long run and also serves to ruin our playgrounds forever. But we cannot control what other people do with their money. To even suggest it seems to be taken badly by many on this site who retort with something along the lines of its my money and I will spend it how I damn well please. The only way to win is to just make more money at a faster rate than anyone else and then at the end when all these people have ruined things at least you can still afford the hobby and perhaps sadly say "I told you so".

[QUOTE=MeoDen;2774076]I doubt you will get any vitriolic responses here. Your observations seem reasonable and accurate.

But can I add something about the Hostess Bars (not aimed at you)?

Not so long ago in mongering memory foreigners were paying $5 a throw, later $10 in their hotel rooms for many, many years.

I've seen comments from tourists (like Ed Sweeney mentioned previously) that they are going into HBs and buying lady drinks for anything between $4 and $8. One bar (Billionaire) was reported to be charging a $30 fee before a hostess would even sit with you. A visitor to Darlin' Darlin' reported that when he said Hello, to a girl sitting at the bar she snapped back at him 'You want speak, pay 20 dollar. MONEY NOW!

I have to ask, when punters are giving them money for nothing via lady drinks, bar fines, extra tips, not refusing to pay or even noticing when their bills are padded, why on earth would any of these women be prepared to engage in sexual activity with these guys? These places are clip joints.

When the first of them opened they were a novelty that attracted some. And admittedly they were quite different then, a bit like LE Cyrce style but with some decent looking women. However, it was the thin end of the wedge. As punters didn't seem to mind being overcharged or even cheated, the service attitudes only turned nastier. The more you give, the less you get. And while to many it was still 'cheaper than Thailand' it wasn't going to last. What everyone finally discovers, even those with the deepest pockets, is that they will eventually spoil the scene. Even for themselves.

It's said that middle-class tourists like to travel to unspoiled destinations. And spoil them. Substitute 'sex' for 'middle-class'.

These Hostess Bars are tuning into Incel Bars.

As to the Viets online and at clubs, they are almost entirely supported by their Chinese clientele. There are plenty of venues where you can pay $200-500 for an hour with Thais, Viets, even Koreans. Some with fancy rooms but the service will inevitably feel fake and clinical. You can have a lot more fun with a farm fresh 19 yo than an ageing professional with a nose and boob job and a photshopped portfolio on Facebook.

But TLDR. Phnom Penh is no longer an attractive P4 P destination, hasn't been for many years, and we know why.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Volterra;2773817]
Farewell PP. I wish all of your hostess bar mamasans a happy and prosperous 2023. I've redirected my hard earned thousands of $ from what would have gone into your coffers to the rebounding Thai economy. With much love from Pattaya![/QUOTE]Very well stated. I had a positive experience in PP pre-pandemic which inspired my recent return- but I can unequivocally relate that at the moment the juice is not worth the squeeze. If you have a few days on a visa run, sure check it out- but only out of a sense of morbid curiosity. Do not plan a sex-trip with Phnom Penh as the centerpiece. Only exception would be if your dick no longer works and you just want to engage in mindless tedious conversation via google translate with young semi-literate rural Cambodian girls.

To Meo Den, Volterra, and RakSopheni, I am not here to argue with you guys. I loved PP from 2000 up to 2009. I met some great girls in Phnom and had amazing times with them. But sadly, PP has been going downhill since around October 2011 when the hostess bars were first raided by the local cops. It was nothing more than a shakedown, but after the bars reopened is when the BMD (buy me drink only) hostess girl phenomenon began. So, I was kind of happy when Darling Darlin first opened its doors because DD FL girls were better coiffed than the average hostess bar girls, I did not have to buy them drinks or pay a barfine, and every girl at DD was there for one reason and one reason only; to get picked up and shagged by a client. The only negative was the outrageous price, so my MO at the time (2014 to 2019) was to hit DD later at night and only if I struck out at the hostess bars earlier in the evening.

Anyway, my point is that there are several causes leading to the current situation and the demise of what was once only a few years ago one of my favorite destinations in Asia. I agree that the internet has been very detrimental. But the influx of noveau upper middle class NE Asians tourists is another major factor. And perhaps the most important factor of all is that our little playground was segregated from the beginning meaning our dens of iniquity were set apart from the places local Cambodian men went to have a good time.

I can only tell you guys that wherever there is no separation of locals from foreign visitors you will still find a vibrant and healthy nightlife scene. The local men keep the girls in line and prevent them from being spoiled. Of course, the destinations I am referring to do not have the same volume of tourists as Cambodia or Thailand. When large number of foreign mongers "invade" a country, they will inevitably begin to affect the local mongering scene and the foreigners will wear out their welcome fast.

I know you guys prefer BKK and or Pat over Phnom, but Thailand is going downhill too. Tell me I am wrong, I would love to hear that I am, but I have not been to LOS since 2019 and I keep postponing my return because, while Thailand was closed thanks to Covid, I found a better destination where the girls are unspoiled and where I can walk into any brothel or bordello and every girl in the place wants to show me a good time. My new preferred destination ain't cheap, but it is very, very good. Like the good old days in Phnom or BKK.

[QUOTE=AxelHeyst;2774195]Snip. I found a better destination where the girls are unspoiled and where I can walk into any brothel or bordello and every girl in the place wants to show me a good time. My new preferred destination ain't cheap, but it is very, very good. Like the good old days in Phnom or BKK.[/QUOTE]Care to tell us that destination?

[QUOTE=JimmyBoy99;2774311]Care to tell us that destination?[/QUOTE]Did you read his post?

[QUOTE=Kazeu;2774164]Unfortunately this is the fate of all things good. When too many people know about the good things they become shit. The internet has just sped up its demise. This website does not help in the long run and also serves to ruin our playgrounds forever. But we cannot control what other people do with their money. To even suggest it seems to be taken badly by many on this site who retort with something along the lines of its my money and I will spend it how I damn well please. The only way to win is to just make more money at a faster rate than anyone else and then at the end when all these people have ruined things at least you can still afford the hobby and perhaps sadly say "I told you so".[/QUOTE]Of course it is both impolite and ineffective to tell people how they should spend their money.

But regarding 'just make more money at a faster rate', that doesn't work.

As distasteful as it is, the Realpolitik of the P4 P environment isn't about how much money the punters have, but how much the girls have.

When BJs are $500 it will be a question of whether you want to use two condoms or three.

And Financial Domination (FinDom) is a real thing. VolCels getting off on paying money for absolutely nothing other than to be abused.

[QUOTE=MeoDen;2774316]Of course it is both impolite and ineffective to tell people how they should spend their money.

But regarding 'just make more money at a faster rate', that doesn't work.

As distasteful as it is, the Realpolitik of the P4 P environment isn't about how much money the punters have, but how much the girls have.

When BJs are $500 it will be a question of whether you want to use two condoms or three.

And Financial Domination (FinDom) is a real thing. VolCels getting off on paying money for absolutely nothing other than to be abused.[/QUOTE]Gentlemen (Meo Den, Kazeu, Axel, RakSopheni), thanks and I'm in agreement. It's the typical 'gentrification' effect of the mongering community, and I also sense (though don't have the current deep knowledge of Cambodian society) that there are deeper social reasons, as Axel points to. My wider dismay and alarm (greedy and lust driven, FinDom style, I confess), is that I may be missing the chance to jump on the few remaining bargain boats just as I start to gather my retirement pennies and plan my post-career party.

It seems that covid may have accelerated the process for girls no longer accepting peanuts for sex (even if they don't have a lot of money) in many jurisdictions. And in any case, they are definitely not interested in blind, innocent service with a smile as we approach 2023. You're right, even though I'm in Thailand right now, these gogo girls are completely blank and disinterested. Even if getting sex is still easy and affordable, for the moment, it's just not the same fun as a couple decades ago. Last night, I just gave up after see more hot girls barely moving and yawning on the dance stage. And the freaking tourist guys were like an alien invasion movie. Look, I'm one too, but I just can't account for the ape-like approach these guys have (and they look like glorified chimpanzees, I must say, LOL).

Better enjoy the last bastions while we can! Unless, by some divine intervention, there are new low-cost pleasure centres waiting to show themselves in the 2020's! Thrust ho!

[QUOTE=JimmyBoy99;2774311]Care to tell us that destination?[/QUOTE]He's not mentioning it in the post but I guess he's talking about San Paolo in Brazil.

[QUOTE=AxelHeyst;2774195]
I know you guys prefer BKK and or Pat over Phnom, but Thailand is going downhill too. Tell me I am wrong, I would love to hear that I am, but I have not been to LOS since 2019 and I keep postponing my return because, while Thailand was closed thanks to Covid, I found a better destination where the girls are unspoiled and where I can walk into any brothel or bordello and every girl in the place wants to show me a good time. My new preferred destination ain't cheap, but it is very, very good. Like the good old days in Phnom or BKK.[/QUOTE]There are a few broader trends that can be laid over the granular observations of changes on the ground- I think the most profound of which is the rise of local economies in the Asian region. For example, a trip to Angeles City in the Philippines will reveal a scene that has become completely dominated by Korean clientele, and one can see the handwriting on the wall that the Chinese monger in Cambodia, and the Indian monger in Thailand are ascendant and will gradually come to dominate those cities as the Koreans now do in Angeles.

Aside from the obvious marginalization of the Western customer base, this change brings with it a different attitude towards the hobby which is evident in the posts below. The Western monger comes alone, looking primarily for sex. Asian mongers (Chinese, Koreans, Indians, Japanese) operate in small groups of men (3-4) and the primary goal of the evening is fraternization and the strengthening of business ties with the second goal being sexual gratification. The "hostess" bar lends itself to this conceptualization, and we see a broader trend towards drink buying in all markets as the primary earning strategy as this customer base gains clout. Enter the Drink Queen.

To state the obvious- with China now re-opening, Phnom Penh will be swept clean of the Western monger and the scene will come to be dominated entirely by Chinese tastes and attitudes and business catering to this customer. Pattaya might hold out a bit longer as the Indian economy is still gathering strength and not as developed- but the trend is clear.

What then Western Monger? Whence shall ye roam? Axel Heyst whispers tantalizingly of an alternative- a last redoubt for the Horny Western man- which I believe to be Brazil. I concur with the implications of his post- that in Brazil the primary market remains the local man, and so the scene remains healthy and robust with or without infusions of cash from the foreign Hobbyist. I only hope Rio does not become overrun with Westerners as Colombia has and is able to retain its charm- but let's be realistic.

For a few more years at least Pattaya will remain viable, but let's be realistic about where this is all headed.

[QUOTE=RakSopheni;2774540]There are a few broader trends that can be laid over the granular observations of changes on the ground- I think the most profound of which is the rise of local economies in the Asian region. For example, a trip to Angeles City in the Philippines will reveal a scene that has become completely dominated by Korean clientele, and one can see the handwriting on the wall that the Chinese monger in Cambodia, and the Indian monger in Thailand are ascendant and will gradually come to dominate those cities as the Koreans now do in Angeles.

Aside from the obvious marginalization of the Western customer base, this change brings with it a different attitude towards the hobby which is evident in the posts below. The Western monger comes alone, looking primarily for sex. Asian mongers (Chinese, Koreans, Indians, Japanese) operate in small groups of men (3-4) and the primary goal of the evening is fraternization and the strengthening of business ties with the second goal being sexual gratification. The "hostess" bar lends itself to this conceptualization, and we see a broader trend towards drink buying in all markets as the primary earning strategy as this customer base gains clout. Enter the Drink Queen.

To state the obvious- with China now re-opening, Phnom Penh will be swept clean of the Western monger and the scene will come to be dominated entirely by Chinese tastes and attitudes and business catering to this customer. Pattaya might hold out a bit longer as the Indian economy is still gathering strength and not as developed- but the trend is clear.

What then Western Monger? Whence shall ye roam? Axel Heyst whispers tantalizingly of an alternative- a last redoubt for the Horny Western man- which I believe to be Brazil. I concur with the implications of his post- that in Brazil the primary market remains the local man, and so the scene remains healthy and robust with or without infusions of cash from the foreign Hobbyist. I only hope Rio does not become overrun with Westerners as Colombia has and is able to retain its charm- but let's be realistic.

For a few more years at least Pattaya will remain viable, but let's be realistic about where this is all headed.[/QUOTE]China's reopening will take time. While the recent announcement gives hope for a return to pre-covid times, what eventually happens is yet to be determined. What the Chinese government says and what it actually does is often at odds with each other. The average Chinese business man lost money during the pandemic like most business men everywhere. Still there are a lot of government officials in China that made fortunes during the pandemic and the question is will they be allowed to travel freely.

As for other areas you mentioned. Thailand and Philippines both have areas outside Angeles City and Pattaya where the monger can go and have success. I was recently in Hua Hin in Thailand and had a good time.

I agree that over time, including the reintroduction of the Chinese plague, that the scene will continue to alienate the western monger but as mentioned earlier, there is a whole scene in Cambodia that caters to locals and very few westerns ever get to experience it. Some of the high rollers that have millions and like to show off may be spending 200 bucks for a girl, but if you think the average Cambodia male is paying that, think again. Can we please roll the clock back around 20 years? Pretty please?

I agree that over time, including the reintroduction of the Chinese plague, that the scene will continue to alienate the western monger but as mentioned earlier, there is a whole scene in Cambodia that caters to locals and very few westerns ever get to experience it. Some of the high rollers that have millions and like to show off may be spending 200 bucks for a girl, but if you think the average Cambodia male is paying that, think again. Can we please roll the clock back around 20 years? Pretty please?

[QUOTE=RakSopheni;2774540]What then Western Monger? Whence shall ye roam? Axel Heyst whispers tantalizingly of an alternative- a last redoubt for the Horny Western man- which I believe to be Brazil. I concur with the implications of his post- that in Brazil the primary market remains the local man, and so the scene remains healthy and robust with or without infusions of cash from the foreign Hobbyist. I only hope Rio does not become overrun with Westerners as Colombia has and is able to retain its charm- but let's be realistic.[/QUOTE]It's too late bro! The cat has long been out of the bag regarding the delights of Brazil. If there's any consolation for the Western monger, it is that Brazil (and Latin America as a whole) shall remain within his sphere of control since the Koreans and the Chinese are not about to be arriving in droves anytime soon. Why, for many of them (Asians) Brazil is literally on the other side of the world! I as a monger cede Asia to the Asian then, but I stand ready to defend my backyard territory. Besides, I'm not attracted to most Asian women anyway hehehe! Give me the white girls and the Latinas LOL!

[QUOTE=Thehedonist;2774432]He's not mentioning it in the post but I guess he's talking about San Paolo in Brazil.[/QUOTE]Yes, he confirmed he was talking about Rio and Sao Paulo.