East China - Shanghai

[QUOTE=Ikksman;1663719]I would like to offer a slightly different view. There are many reasons why WGs, who are not 'sex slaves' (in the formal definition of the term), are not free to leave. ...........
In the case of pre-yanda Changping, I estimate that the majority of girls, who had been working there for more than a few months, fell into one or more of the above categories.

Ikksman
[SUP][i]"No need to expose fools. They expose themselves!"[/i][/SUP][/QUOTE]Whilst I most times agree with our POV, I must take an exception this time.

I have had the privilege (or is it ignominy) of quite intimately knowing too many of our Chinese courtesans and have formed a rather different POV. Oh sure, there are of course quite a few of these girls who falls under your characterization, but I'the suggest that these definitely do NOT form the majority – especially those more "seasoned. "

Chinese girls are not as naive and / or helpless as you seem to think they are; and I'd venture to say that the majority are in the profession of their own free will. Now, whether such "free will" is rational or not, given their propensity for being overly filial (to parents) and being too subservient to their husbands / BF, is of course subject to interpretation.

Yes, a lot of the "first timers" had been cheated by BF's, recruiters and even traffickers, and subject to constrictions as ID card confiscation, made drug dependent, blackmail etc. As you describe, but this usually do NOT last for long and either she goes back home chastened, or else instead go back out on her own to work.

And yes, some of these stories are quite harrowing, but I really think you do not give enough credit to the spirit of the Chinese lasses. I even know a girl who got "sold" by her supposed BF for a mere RMB 4,000 to an operator of a Jiangmen drug den and made drug dependent; and even though she is a very good looking girl, she mostly just accompanied clients to take drugs and most times sex did not even enter in the equation and regular physical beatings to keep her in line was also on the menu. That's how hard-core the situation she found herself in, but after over a year, she got the courage to just walk-out, slept on the streets for over a month whilst going cold turkey, and went to Chang Ping to start working at a regular KTV. Just like that, and I can tell you many other stories, mostly involving useless BF's and over-demanding parents, but mostly just illustrating their "free-will. ".

Only IMHO of course, but I really cannot agree to your postulation that most Chinese WG's are "not free to leave. "

SEAJ.

[QUOTE=Ikksman;1663719]I would like to offer a slightly different view. There are many reasons why WGs, who are not 'sex slaves' (in the formal definition of the term), are not free to leave. A few of these reasons are:

The employer takes the girls ID card

In the case of pre-yanda Changping, I estimate that the majority of girls, who had been working there for more than a few months, fell into one or more of the above categories.
[/QUOTE]Perhaps in Changping in the time of Cronin, but in Shanghai the only form of coercion is the fact that the girl must put down a deposit (normally of 2000 rmb), and must give one or two full months notice, when quitting, otherwise the security bond is lost.

Recently I am aware of several MP's where girls can buy in for a ten percent stake in the business, this also makes it difficult for them to move on!

In all cases the original owner retains more than 50%.

I have received a number of PMs to [I]"ignore the bullshit posts".[/I] You guys are correct, I should ignore them. No sense in giving them more publicity and clogging up the Shanghai forum with lengthy threads where the BSers tirelessly attempt to defend their BS.

Cheers.

Ikksman
[SUP][i]"No need to expose fools. They expose themselves!"[/i][/SUP]

[QUOTE=Ikksman;1663719]I would like to offer a slightly different view. There are many reasons why WGs, who are not 'sex slaves' (in the formal definition of the term), are not free to leave. A [B]few[/B] of these reasons are:

The employer takes the girls ID card
The employer threatens to inform the girl's parents, relatives, village of her occupation.
The BF back in the village has promised to marry her as soon as she earns a certain amount of money
The girl has been deliberately introduced to drugs and now has a dependency on them
An 'Auntie' or relative has introduced her to the business and basically controls the girl
The girl has become dependent on, and controlled by, a cockroach
The girl owes money to the employer (training, uniforms, fines etc)

In the case of pre-yanda Changping, I estimate that the majority of girls, who had been working there for more than a few months, fell into one or more of the above categories.

Ikksman
[SUP][i]"No need to expose fools. They expose themselves!"[/i][/SUP][/QUOTE]I have a lot of contacts in the sauna and escort scene here in Shanghai, and in this "working field", there is nearly no "pressure" from the company to keep them to stay or or beeing a "sex slave" of the company or business owner. For example the Sauna clubs pay salary every 10 days, the girls can leave when ever they want, just will loose the part of the salary they did not get yet, very less additional will have a deposit in the value mentioned here before (not more than 2000 RMB normally), and that is not really something can keep a girl into the sauna business, if she don't want, because that's what she make in 2 or 3 days. I just had a talk some days ago with a owner of a big sauna, and he told me, they had to rise up their rate, just because girls will move to other places, where they can get some more money, so if he want to keep the good ones in his club, he has to pay them some more, otherwise they leave, and I know many girls left the sauna business to do something else, go home or work as an escort and no one get any problem for that. At least not here in Shanghai.

And for escort it's even more "free". I never meet any agency who work with employed staff. All girls are "freelancer", the only pressure they will have is, that the agencies will not give them customers any more, if they will not be available too often or act in a way, that the customer complain, but there is no further "pressure" from their "company". Not like known from Beijing, where girls often "prisoned" in a company appartment, only allow to go out if they have customers, than even driven there with company car and driver, not allowed to own mobile phones, the passport is taken by the boss and so on.

I would guess it's different in Shanghai, because the "officals" don't care the same for "prositution" like in Beijing, so the "risk" to get prisones for the boss is much lower in Shanghai, so no need for him to "control" the business and girls so much. And I guess no boss in Shanghai will risk getting problems because of trafficking, because this will cause much more serious problems soon, compared with just running a sauna or escort business.

The point from my view is, under which conditions you will call a girls a "sex slave". For example in Germany prostitution is legal, but forced prostitution is still a crime.

Now it will happen, that people will call 80% of the deals in Germany "forced prostitution", because they define it as that, if a girl is in a economy situation, that she (think she) will have to work as a prostitute for getting enough money. If you define it like that, than every working girl in China is a "sex slave", just because she is a "slave of money" (like many Chinese people), and there is definitly no similar way for a (often uneducated) girl to make even 20% of the money she can get as a working girl in any other job she can get.

For example I meet a escort girl who worked independent and than stopped to go back to "regular" life. She came back to our page after some weeks and told me, she stopped escort before, because she did not feel good to be "fucked" by so many "bad" guys. Than she started to work in a office and found out, that she need to work 10 times more for 10% of the money and she also told me: "now I have 2 managers who also "fuck" me in a way I don't like several times a week. Not "fuck" my pussy, but "fuck" my brain, so nothing getting better at all"!

So from my view most of the girls in this business just do it, because they get much more money than for every other job. Even in a Barbershop, the girls will not have less than 20.000 RMB a month, in a sauna not less than 30.000 RMB, if they are "models", they will not make less than 60 000 RMB. So we talk about a 16 to 20 years old (often contryside) girl who make more than 10.000 US Dollars a month, and that in a area where many high educated engineers will go home with less than 2. 000 US Dollars!

So the "dream" of most of the girls will be, to work in a sauna for some years, save a lot of money and than go back in her hometown and start her own business like a restaurant or cloth shop. And with less than 25 years she could have 500.000 US Dollars savings already, and with that she could start a great life in her hometown.

Unfortunally it nearly never work like that. So I agree to the above listing regarding to the "enviroment" pressure. There are many external influences that will destroy their planing:

- The business is hard (no regular "scedule", many hours working a day, having sex several times a day and so on), so many girls will be drug addicted very fast (especially meth / ice) and some of the girls spend thousands of US Dollars for that every month.

- All around the sauna girls you will find "lovescammer" who pretend beeing a boyfriend (which many girls yearning for), but they only want to get as much money as possible.

- Many girls support their families at home (who pretend to believe she can send them 30 to 50 K a month just by normal working in Shanghai. What a fuck!

And beside all that "pressure", there are also many working girls, who just enjoy a very comfortable luxury life by a "unmoral", but very "lazy" lifestyle. Luxury goods, many free time for party, just for some "overnights" every month! I have a escort friend, she is 28 years now, driving a new Mercedes Sports Car here in Shanghai, bought a new big appartment (paid already), only wear brand clothes and accessories, enjoy luxury overseas holiday every year and so on. So she is far away from a "sex slave", but she has no motivation to think about doing another job. Some "expensive" part time girls on our page make 5000 RMB a month in their normal job and just enjoy the extra budget of 10 or 20.000 RMB a month just for having a short sex session from time to time.

For all the guys here who do not believe that girls can make so much money by that, I have to say that this is a typical "western thinking". I can feel the different thinking often in this forum, where every guy who talk about "higher rate entertainment" will be "blamed" for his foolishness and called a greenhorn, because here in this forum 90% of the posts try to find the "cheap sex" deals.

But as mentioned in my previews postings already, chinese guys are much more generous for that, because spending a lot for a girl is already a good way for a chinese guy to show he is rich and successfull, same like many (western) guys drive a expensive car to show they have money. So while western guys complain about the service and price ratio by spending 1980 RMB in a sauna for 60 minutes and only one pop (and no blowjob), chinese guys will just do it and tell everyone, that they spend 2000 to fuck a pretty model, and all will be impressed that he could afford that (while all western guys will be shocked how he could be so stupid).

So from my view (at least in Shanghai) there is no need to feel guilty if you "play" with a working girl, you will nearly never support a "bad" boss who force girls into the working business! Honestly, I only met less than 5 girls who work for "fun" , but I would guess nearly all the time (of course, there may be exceptions) you will support a girl to have the life she decided to live for herself and not forced into by others!

[QUOTE=FiveAces;1663608]How many times do you see a male tourist being set up by a tout on Nanjing Lu. If you interfered you would quickly find out they are a gang not just one person.

It needs to be said over and over not ever to go with touts anywhere or anytime. Never.

That includes females or innocent seeming young girls just wanting to practice their English.

They are all there to rob you, not to welcome you to China. Some or most are willing to hurt you.

If you want to be robbed and maybe hurt as well then go with the nice touts. If you want to have a good time at a fair rate then read the forum and find out where.

To go.[/QUOTE]Five Aces,

When you say "not ever to go with touts anywhere or anytime. " That is a general statement and that is not always true. This is mongering and mongering is dangerous. I have went with many touts and never had any problems and yes I can speak OK Mandarin. Now there were touts that I refused to go with. Like if they told me it was farther than walking distance and I would have to get in a car ect. I have been attacked on this board before because I say learning to speak some Chinese will not only help you from getting over charged but can help you get out of trouble if you do get in trouble. Minimum have a paper with some words that can help if you get into trouble. There will be not enough time for a translator on phone. But, I don't want another talk about speaking the language and how non Chinese speaking guys claim they effortlessly coast trouble China and never have and issues with language. That is them. I am referring to the rest of the people.

These girls and touts are out to make money from you. Not necessarily rob you. There are only 5 ways that I know about to get girls in China for mongering. 1. Barber shop, massage shop, touts, escort website, we chat type kind of apps. Each one has its own dangers and all of them you can be robbed or arrested. You also can go to Karaoke which in my opinion is the most dangerous way to get robbed.

[QUOTE=TomSf;1664006]Five aces,

These girls and touts are out to make money from you. Not necessarily rob you.[/QUOTE]Not really, the "serious" touts and girls have so many other ways to find customers much more easy and for example a sauna will pay up to 100 RMB to a guy who will bring in a new customers, but did you ever have been invited to a "normal" sauna by a tout on the street? I am out nearly every night, and it never happened to me! From my view there is no need for anyone to start to talk with western greenhorns on the street, if he want to find customers for a "normal" deal. There are 1000 times more Chinese customers around, so there is only one reason to pick out the 0,1 % western greenhorns: "easy to rip them off"! Everyone who really will be out to make money will have no reason to waste his time with western guys!

[QUOTE=TomSf;1664006]There are only 5 ways that I know about to get girls in China for mongering. 1. Barber shop, massage shop, touts, escort website, we chat type kind of apps. Each one has its own dangers and all of them you can be robbed or arrested. You also can go to Karaoke which in my opinion is the most dangerous way to get robbed.[/QUOTE]I can not totally agree to the above words.

First in the listing how to get girls, the sauna clubs and pickup bars are missing.

Second I don't understand how you think people get robbed in a Karaoke? Robbed for you is to pay high rates? Than I can agree, but robbed in my understanding is someone threaten or blackmail you to pay a fortune that never mentioned before. Every expensive "white" KTV will tell you how much for every service and it's up to you to decide, if it's worth for you or not. The only really "robbing" in Karaoke Clubs will happen in the illegal "black" KTVs, but here we are exactly at the beginning point. No one will ever end up in a "black" KTV, if he follow advertisement on buildings, magazines, forum recommendations and so on. The only way to end up in a black KTV will be to follow a tout on the street who will offer you "sexy girls", cheap drinks, bar very nearby and so on.

And from my experience I also would never ever recommend anyone to follow a tout on the street. I can speak a decent Chinese, and much more important, I have a good friend in a very high position in the Shanghai Police Department, so sometimes I "played the game" to follow touts, pretending first not to speak Chinese and totally act like a "greenhorn" (for example in Xin Tian Di, around Judy's or in Nanjing Lu), just to find out, if I can find new interesting places by that.

And my experience in the last year when I followed guys around 10 times was: I never ended up in a "white" place! Every time I finally ended up in a "black" KTV or Massage Club. never any reasonable service has been offered to me and 6 times I already called my police friend and kept him on phone just to "open" a way out without getting robbed, beated up or something like that.

I have to limit, however, that I did not use your filter of "only walking distance", but for me it's hard to believe that anyone can be so lucky to find good places by that and I tried it 10 times without being lucky even one time (but same time got in very dangerous situations 6 times. And I talk about being in trouble with violent criminals), so I would never ever advice anyone who don't know how to handle it to follow a tout in Shanghai.

And for the risk evaluation I would prefer a slightly differentiated analysis:

1. Barber shop: Risk of getting catched with trousers down in a raid: not happened even one time with a western guy last year / Risk to get overcharged (means more than agreed): never happened in any normal shop you pass by and go in / Risk to get robbed or blackmailed or threats of violence: never heard about that in a Barbershop.

2. Massage shop: Risk of getting caught with trousers down in a raid: not happened even one time with a western guy last year / Risk to get overcharged (means more than agreed): never happened in any normal shop you pass by and go in / Risk to get robbed or threats of violence: never heard about that in a "not tout shop".

3. Follow touts: Risk of threats of violence to give out credit card information: I would guess at least 10 to 20 % / Risk to get forced and blackmailed to pay 5. 000 to 30.000 RMB for a short time entertainment: I personally have been informed about around 20 cases last year, so I am sure it happened at least 5 times a day in Shanghai.

4. Escort website: Risk to be overcharged by upselling: Nearly every time / Risk for getting a totally different girl: happen every time you book / Risk to get robbed: never heard about any case over the last year / The risk of being burgled: exist, but low, because girl is "known".

5. We chat type kind of apps: Mix of Escort Website and Touts business, because most of the contacts there will be one of this both "companies".

6. Sauna Clubs: Risk to get caught in a raid: never happened in the last 5 years in Shanghai, as far as I know / Risk for get overcharged: Never / risk to get robbed: Never heard about any case (we talk about the "popular and white" sauna clubs, not the "black" ones where you only will end up by follow the tout!

7. Pickup bars: Risk to get overcharged: every day / Risk to get robbed, black male or threats of violence: Never heard about a case / The risk of being burgled: exist, but low, because girl is "known" and will not risk to get banned from the bar, but happened several times with "free" pickups on the street.

8. Girls Bars (Hostess Bars): Risk to get robbed or blackmailed, threats of violence: never heard about that / Risk to get overcharged: High, they will often cheat with drink bill / Risk for a Credit card fraud: High, happened several times last year.

9. KTV / Karaoke: Risk to get caught in a raid: never happened in the last 5 years in Shanghai, as far as I know / Risk for get overcharged: Never heard about that / Risk to pay a lot: yes, this clubs can be very expensive, but the rates are not a secret, you will know it in advance / risk to get robbed: Never heard about any case (we talk about the "popular and white" KTV clubs again, not the "black" ones where you also will only end up by following a the tout!

So from my point of view it is a really blue-eyed evaluation to say that all this ways have their own risk and and to give the impression that the risk would be even close to equal. From my view you can monger around in Shanghai with a nearly not existing risk by just visiting sauna clubs or you can have a nearly 100 % chance to get in serious trouble just by follow several touts the time you stay here.

I would be willing to bet with everyone here, that we can go to Xin Tian Di together, follow 10 times a tout and he will win 500 Dollar, if none of them will try to rip us off (blackmail, treaten with police or beating us up) for at least 5000 RMB, and I will loose that amount, if we could find 10 times some entertainment for less than 2000 RMB. But I am afraid no one who know the "market" only a little bit will bet against it?

But I totally agree, that speaking the language is helpful! Every time I change to Chinese will blow away more than 80% of the touts, because than they are afraid I know the market and I will not be the kind of guy who easily will be scared and willing to pay, so they immediately give up. Second the touts will be much more scared you are able to leave the club and call the next police guys around over, if you will be able to communicate with them. I even one time could listen to a quarrel, where my "tout" has getting in serious trouble with the manager of a black KTV, because he brought a guy in, who could speak Chinese and would be able to cause too much trouble to the club. Than the manager came back, excused to me, tried to explain all as a "misunderstanding" and guided me personally out. So from my experience it's never a mistake to speak the local language, but I also don't think there is anyone here around who really think it's not an advantage to have language skills for mongering!

Shsnghai Guide: Can you comment on the economics of the oil massage business in Shsnghai? The house fee went from 208 to 268 recently at some places in Jingan. The girls told me they received 70 out of the 208 fee and later 138 of the 268 fee. Do the chinese customers tip them？ They will on occasion agree to takeout on their day off, or after work ends, but usually need to get back to sleep in the dorm. Management seems to keep them on a short leash. What kind of monthly salary are they getting. I was told 3000-500 o last year.

Except for the Beijing part that is merely urban legend I agree with SG that making a lot of cash working freely as a WG is the Chinese dreams for most of these girls in large cities. A salary of 70 k cny per month is clearly possible although they Got worn out fairly quickly.

Let us not forget that for a lot of these girls doing this job is a fast way to get rich enough to do something else.

They usually come from a poor rather uneducated background where they see their body as a way to improve their life prospects.

Of course some of them need to pay for their parents, repay for a debt or support a lousy girlfriend but working as an escort or in a sauna is a free decision in many cases as a lesser evil.

That being said I also know that is a lot of litterature about girls being used as collateral for debts in the countryside. Never met any though and I believe that with the economic development of China you may find less and less of these. Similarly I have never met any Chinese WG in mainland China who was under drugs.

What Ikksman describes reminds me more of the situation encountered in Macau. Maybe it s the case in southern China too.

[QUOTE=ShanghaiGuide;1663910]I have a lot of contacts in the sauna and escort scene here in Shanghai, and in this "working field", there is nearly no "pressure" from the company to keep them to stay or or beeing a "sex slave" of the company or business owner. For example the Sauna clubs pay salary every 10 days, the girls can leave when ever they want, just will loose the part of the salary they did not get yet, very less additional will have a deposit in the value mentioned here before (not more than 2000 RMB normally), and that is not really something can keep a girl into the sauna business, if she don't want, because that's what she make in 2 or 3 days. I just had a talk some days ago with a owner of a big sauna, and he told me, they had to rise up their rate, just because girls will move to other places, where they can get some more money, so if he want to keep the good ones in his club, he has to pay them some more, otherwise they leave, and I know many girls left the sauna business to do something else, go home or work as an escort and no one get any problem for that. At least not here in Shanghai.

And for escort it's even more "free". I never meet any agency who work with employed staff. All girls are "freelancer", the only pressure they will have is, that the agencies will not give them customers any more, if they will not be available too often or act in a way, that the customer complain, but there is no further "pressure" from their "company". Not like known from Beijing, where girls often "prisoned" in a company appartment, only allow to go out if they have customers, than even driven there with company car and driver, not allowed to own mobile phones, the passport is taken by the boss and so on.

I would guess it's different in Shanghai, because the "officals" don't care the same for "prositution" like in Beijing, so the "risk" to get prisones for the boss is much lower in Shanghai, so no need for him to "control" the business and girls so much. And I guess no boss in Shanghai will risk getting problems because of trafficking, because this will cause much more serious problems soon, compared with just running a sauna or escort business.

The point from my view is, under which conditions you will call a girls a "sex slave". For example in Germany prostitution is legal, but forced prostitution is still a crime.

Now it will happen, that people will call 80% of the deals in Germany "forced prostitution", because they define it as that, if a girl is in a economy situation, that she (think she) will have to work as a prostitute for getting enough money. If you define it like that, than every working girl in China is a "sex slave", just because she is a "slave of money" (like many Chinese people), and there is definitly no similar way for a (often uneducated) girl to make even 20% of the money she can get as a working girl in any other job she can get.

For example I meet a escort girl who worked independent and than stopped to go back to "regular" life. She came back to our page after some weeks and told me, she stopped escort before, because she did not feel good to be "fucked" by so many "bad" guys. Than she started to work in a office and found out, that she need to work 10 times more for 10% of the money and she also told me: "now I have 2 managers who also "fuck" me in a way I don't like several times a week. Not "fuck" my pussy, but "fuck" my brain, so nothing getting better at all"!

So from my view most of the girls in this business just do it, because they get much more money than for every other job. Even in a Barbershop, the girls will not have less than 20.000 RMB a month, in a sauna not less than 30.000 RMB, if they are "models", they will not make less than 60 000 RMB. So we talk about a 16 to 20 years old (often contryside) girl who make more than 10.000 US Dollars a month, and that in a area where many high educated engineers will go home with less than 2. 000 US Dollars!

So the "dream" of most of the girls will be, to work in a sauna for some years, save a lot of money and than go back in her hometown and start her own business like a restaurant or cloth shop. And with less than 25 years she could have 500.000 US Dollars savings already, and with that she could start a great life in her hometown.

Unfortunally it nearly never work like that. So I agree to the above listing regarding to the "enviroment" pressure. There are many external influences that will destroy their planing:

- The business is hard (no regular "scedule", many hours working a day, having sex several times a day and so on), so many girls will be drug addicted very fast (especially meth / ice) and some of the girls spend thousands of US Dollars for that every month.

- All around the sauna girls you will find "lovescammer" who pretend beeing a boyfriend (which many girls yearning for), but they only want to get as much money as possible.

- Many girls support their families at home (who pretend to believe she can send them 30 to 50 K a month just by normal working in Shanghai. What a fuck!

And beside all that "pressure", there are also many working girls, who just enjoy a very comfortable luxury life by a "unmoral", but very "lazy" lifestyle. Luxury goods, many free time for party, just for some "overnights" every month! I have a escort friend, she is 28 years now, driving a new Mercedes Sports Car here in Shanghai, bought a new big appartment (paid already), only wear brand clothes and accessories, enjoy luxury overseas holiday every year and so on. So she is far away from a "sex slave", but she has no motivation to think about doing another job. Some "expensive" part time girls on our page make 5000 RMB a month in their normal job and just enjoy the extra budget of 10 or 20.000 RMB a month just for having a short sex session from time to time.

For all the guys here who do not believe that girls can make so much money by that, I have to say that this is a typical "western thinking". I can feel the different thinking often in this forum, where every guy who talk about "higher rate entertainment" will be "blamed" for his foolishness and called a greenhorn, because here in this forum 90% of the posts try to find the "cheap sex" deals.

But as mentioned in my previews postings already, chinese guys are much more generous for that, because spending a lot for a girl is already a good way for a chinese guy to show he is rich and successfull, same like many (western) guys drive a expensive car to show they have money. So while western guys complain about the service and price ratio by spending 1980 RMB in a sauna for 60 minutes and only one pop (and no blowjob), chinese guys will just do it and tell everyone, that they spend 2000 to fuck a pretty model, and all will be impressed that he could afford that (while all western guys will be shocked how he could be so stupid).

So from my view (at least in Shanghai) there is no need to feel guilty if you "play" with a working girl, you will nearly never support a "bad" boss who force girls into the working business! Honestly, I only met less than 5 girls who work for "fun" , but I would guess nearly all the time (of course, there may be exceptions) you will support a girl to have the life she decided to live for herself and not forced into by others![/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=TomSf;1664006]Five aces,

When you say "not ever to go with touts anywhere or anytime. " That is a general statement and that is not always true. This is mongering and mongering is dangerous. I have went with many touts and never had any problems and yes I can speak OK Mandarin. Now there were touts that I refused to go with. Like if they told me it was farther than walking distance and I would have to get in a car ect. I have been attacked on this board before because I say learning to speak some Chinese will not only help you from getting over charged but can help you get out of trouble if you do get in trouble. Minimum have a paper with some words that can help if you get into trouble. There will be not enough time for a translator on phone. But, I don't want another talk about speaking the language and how non Chinese speaking guys claim they effortlessly coast trouble China and never have and issues with language. That is them. I am referring to the rest of the people.

These girls and touts are out to make money from you. Not necessarily rob you. There are only 5 ways that I know about to get girls in China for mongering. 1. Barber shop, massage shop, touts, escort website, we chat type kind of apps. Each one has its own dangers and all of them you can be robbed or arrested. You also can go to Karaoke which in my opinion is the most dangerous way to get robbed.[/QUOTE]

I have got to say this is just not true. If you think the danger involved with dealing with touts is overstated here you are wrong. Period.

If you don't mind the risk have fun. Pay tourist rate, get a really lousy sex massage, then get beat up and robbed by some sneering thugs. Ok enjoy.

By the way I did take the time to learn a little mandarin and have been visiting Shanghai for 8 years.

But anyway you can be certain that the thugs in the small room will know English; hunting tourists is their specialty.

[QUOTE=ShanghaiGuide;1663910]{S N I P} So the "dream" of most of the girls will be, to work in a sauna for some years, save a lot of money and than go back in her hometown and start her own business like a restaurant or cloth shop. And with less than 25 years she could have 500.000 US Dollars savings already, and with that she could start a great life in her hometown.

Unfortunally it nearly never work like that. So I agree to the above listing regarding to the "enviroment" pressure. There are many external influences that will destroy their planning: {S N I P}[/QUOTE]Thanks for a very informative post, SG. I know that most meth / ice is made in Southern China, but I think it is fast becoming a major nationwide problem (maybe it is not very visible to foreigners). But it is fast becoming a major part of KTV partying and the girls are forced to participate.

BTW, what other terms do you use for the "love scammers" in Shanghai? Do you use the terms 'cockroach', 'rice container' or 'chicken head'?

Ikks.

[QUOTE=SEAsiaJoe;1663767]Whilst I most times agree with our POV, I must take an exception this time. {S N I P}
Only IMHO of course, but I really cannot agree to your postulation that most Chinese WG's are "not free to leave. "
SEAJ.[/QUOTE]SEAJ,

Your level of experience in SZ and CP is exponentially greater than mine, and your post was enlightening.

I guess I was stretching it a bit to claim that in Changping [I]"the majority of girls, who had been working there for more than a few months, fell into one or more of the above categories."[/I] (of being under some form of duress / control). I should have been much more moderate in my statements!

WRT to the rest of China, particularly Northern China, I have no idea of the amount or degree of coercion/ control that exists (and did not claim to know), but I am sure that it is present, which is the main point I was ineptly attempting to make!

WGs in China have to suffer many indignities, but I am heartened by your confidence and belief in the spirit of the girls.

Cheers,
Ikks

Any recent updates for the Ramada near Pudong Airport? I have a late-arriving flight and an early departure the next morning, so taking a taxi for an hour to get to a sauna is not so appealing. Would appreciate any advice or suggestions.

[QUOTE=Jopj1;1664147]Except for the Beijing part that is merely urban legend I agree with SG [/QUOTE]I would not say it's a urban legend, could be it changed, but I had that situation around 8 years ago in Beijing and at least for that time I got the feeling, it was not a legend.

In 2006 I agreed to a girl who offered me a "massage girl" for my hotel room near my hotel, than she called a car by, than a car stopped, some girls inside, I picked out one, the "mamasan" even went with us to my hotel room (but luckily at least kept outside), after one hour she even knocked on my door to pick up the girl again. Unfortunately that time I did not speak any Chinese and she did not speak any English, but she had definitely no phone number and even start to cry when I asked for that. It was a horrible session, because I lost all motivation by feeling how sad and afraid she was, so I am nearly sure it was a case of trafficking, but that was just my impression that time and that's the reason why I really believe this kind of "urban legends" when I read about them now.

[QUOTE=Jopj1;1664147]Similarly I have never met any Chinese WG in mainland China who was under drugs.[/QUOTE]I would guess you did not do a drug test with them, right? Before I used to get more "deep into the scene", I would have told everyone exactly the same, but if you get more "close" to the sauna managers and girls, you will change your point of view.

Two years ago I started to meet one of my regular sauna girls outside the club and after some month when she and her friends started to trust me, I also have been invited to their parties where I could figure out, that many of this girls used to smoke ice (crystal meth), several of them even with Chinese customers together (It seems to be same popular in China than Cocaine for the "high society" in western countries).

I could see a very clear connection from the sex business with this drug. Who ever smoked ice, will know, that it will help the girls not to get tired, it doesn't matter how long their shift will be, the time will run much faster and additional they get more horny and they will have no problem to sex around for hours.

All effects of this drug are useful for their business, that's why so alluring for the girls. But for sure all girls I met have been fare away from the typical crack hookers I could see in american movies. From all the girls I later found out they regularly smoke ice, I never had any suspicions for month, so I would guess, if you met some more working girls in China, you also will have met some girls under drugs, but not so obviously, that you could realized it.

But that's just my personal evaluation.

[QUOTE=ShanghaiGuide;1664110]Not really, the "serious" touts and girls have so many other ways to find customers much more easy and for example a sauna will pay up to 100 RMB to a guy who will bring in a new customers, but did you ever have been invited to a "normal" sauna by a tout on the street? I am out nearly every night, and it never happened to me! From my view there is no need for anyone to start to talk with western greenhorns on the street, if he want to find customers for a "normal" deal. There are 1000 times more Chinese customers around, so there is only one reason to pick out the 0,1 % western greenhorns: "easy to rip them off"! Everyone who really will be out to make money will have no reason to waste his time with western guys!

I can not totally agree to the above words.

First in the listing how to get girls, the sauna clubs and pickup bars are missing.

Second I don't understand how you think people get robbed in a Karaoke? Robbed for you is to pay high rates? Than I can agree, but robbed in my understanding is someone threaten or blackmail you to pay a fortune that never mentioned before.[/QUOTE]ShanghaiGuide,

Excellent post. Thank you for writing this. I have no where near you knowledge and experience with Shanghai. When I was talking about KTV robbing customers. Yes, I was referring robbing by over charging. Especially white guys. But had Chinese friends that did not live in China and still got over charged. When I asked them how this could happen. He told me they could sense they were not a local. I don't really like drinking in another country for safety reasons so I never went to bars or had a need for KTV places. After reading this post it actually scared me about shanghai. Although I personally never felt unsafe. I guess it was just luck. I was in an area and I am sorry I can't remember area that I guess was safe. I was in a taxi and told him to stop and hopped out when I seen I was in a red light type area. There was many barber massage type shops concentrated in that particular area. I definitely need to be more careful sir.

Thank you again.

[QUOTE=TomSf;1664579]But had Chinese friends that did not live in China and still got over charged. When I asked them how this could happen. He told me they could sense they were not a local.[/QUOTE]They don't use mental telepathy. They can spot American Chinese by their clothes.

Yes ShanghaiGuide, that was an excellent post. My comments were for the benefit of just off the plane foreigners. They can't make subtle distinctions (as if there were any).

I have found Shanghai to be safe. You just have to RTFF to know the scams. Then have a really good time.