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[QUOTE=The Traveler]Member #2041,
here's a hint too.
When you aren't part of a conversation and don't want to prolong it, hold your tongue and say NOTHING instead of making a post on the subject lecturing others that they shouldn't say anything anymore.[/QUOTE]
What makes you think that I didn't want to prolong it? Do you honestly believe that I didn't anticipate your responding in a defensive manner? Hardly. I was looking for exactly the type of entertainment you delivered - a marionette show, as it were, with me pulling your strings, and you responding exactly as I manipulated you to do. Piper is not the only one who is pulling your strings. Although, with several of us pulling on them at once, it does appear that your responses sometimes seem to get tangled up in knots.
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[QUOTE=Member #2041]What makes you think that I didn't want to prolong it? Do you honestly believe that I didn't anticipate your responding in a defensive manner? Hardly. I was looking for exactly the type of entertainment you delivered - a marionette show, as it were, with me pulling your strings, and you responding exactly as I manipulated you to do. Piper is not the only one who is pulling your strings.[/QUOTE]
Member #2041,
LOL, you are giving yourself a pat on the back but don't see that your strings are pulled as well.
I also find it quite interesting that someone like you - who goes bareback and rejects any criticism and well meant advice with "It's my fucking business, not yours" - does criticize and try to lecture others. Very interesting indeed.
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[QUOTE=The Traveler]Member #2041,
LOL, you are giving yourself a pat on the back but don't see that your strings are pulled as well.
I also find it quite interesting that someone like you - who goes bareback and rejects any criticism and well meant advice with "It's my fucking business, not yours" - does criticize and try to lecture others. Very interesting indeed.[/QUOTE]
Ironically, it was never established in the earlier discussions to which you allude that I in fact go bareback with pros - or rather, could I have merely been yanking your chain for entertaining effect (as I am here). What we DID, however establish in that earlier dialogue, was that you had proven to be completely ineffective in your self-appointed role of the sole arbiter of behaviors which might productively be discussed on an international monger board.
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[quote=member #2041]ironically, it was never established in the earlier discussions to which you allude that i in fact go bareback with pros. what we did, however establish in that earlier dialogue, was that you had proven to be completely ineffective in your self-appointed role of the sole arbiter of behaviors which might acceptably discussed on an international monger board.[/quote]
member #2041,
how can you discuss any matter with someone who rejects all well meant advice and claims that his (mis)behaviour - even if it may do damage to other peoples life - is solely his own business and can not be a subject of criticism or advice ?
if i really should have failed in that earlier discussion, then you do also fail right now as my response to t1234 is simply "not your fucking business".
please note, that my answer to t1234 does not bear the potential of harming or killing another person opposite to your barebacking.
just to set things straight : you first admitted to go bareback in a post and when being criticized by others you tried to change the whole thing. i got involved much later, so it's very clear that you haven't been yanking my chain for entertaining effect. your reaction was very similar to o****'s one, but he had the balls to stand for it while you showed the white feather.
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[QUOTE=The Traveler]Member #2041,
how can you discuss any matter with someone who rejects all well meant advice and claims that his (mis)behaviour - even if it may do damage to other peoples life - is solely his own business and can not be a subject of criticism or advice ?
If I really should have failed in that earlier discussion, then you do also fail right now as my response to T1234 is simply "not your fucking business".
Please note, that my answer to T1234 does not bear the potential of harming or killing another person opposite to your barebacking.[/QUOTE]
For starters, you don't know that I've rejected any advice, as I don't believe that you were in the room during any of my adventures with Thai ladies, and hence, you haven't a clue as to what I was or wasn't doing. Not to mention the fact that there are thousands of such interactions which occur for every one that actually (or fictitiously, for that matter) gets reported on forums such as these - which is why your interjection of "well meaning advice" is both laughable and entirely overstated in it's value in your own mind.
And second, since we have established that all you ACTUALLY know that I have done is to make you appear silly and overly impressed by your own self-importance on this forum, I fail to see how anything that I have done here on an online forum has the potential of harming or killing another person - unless that were to be the consequence of your brain's reaction to your being soundly trounced in an argument with someone else's online personna which you have no way whatsoever of knowing to be representative of actual behavior in the slightest.
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[QUOTE=Member #2041]For starters, you don't know that I've rejected any advice, as I don't believe that you were in the room during any of my adventures with Thai ladies, and hence, you haven't a clue as to what I was or wasn't doing. Not to mention the fact that there are thousands of such interactions which occur for every one that actually (or fictitiously, for that matter) gets reported on forums such as these - which is why your interjection of "well meaning advice" is both laughable and entirely overstated in it's value in your own mind.
And second, since we have established that all you ACTUALLY know that I have done is to make you appear silly and overly impressed by your own self-importance on this forum, I fail to see how anything that I have done here on an online forum has the potential of harming or killing another person - unless that were to be the consequence of your brain's reaction to your being soundly trounced in an argument with someone else's online personna which you have no way whatsoever of knowing to be representative of actual behavior in the slightest.[/QUOTE]
Member #2041,
I don't ACTUALLY know anything about what you may or may not have done. I never said I do.
All I can do and all I did is to respond to what you have said about yourself.
This leads us to the conclusion that you either did what you have posted in here - which would make all I have said a valid statement - or that you did lie.
So please enlighten us or do you want to beat about the bush endlessly like Opebo ?
Your below remark that you "[i]fail to see how anything that you have done here on an online forum has the potential of harming or killing another person[/i]" shows very clearly that you haven't understood a single word. That's sad because I expected you to be smarter.
Nevertheless I explain it to you :
Nobody cares what you do or don't do in this or another forum as everything you can do here is only bits and bytes. But since we don't expect you to be a liar we expect that your posts reflect your ACTUAL behaviour in the real world. And this behaviour in the real world is the subject of criticism.
But if you have been lying, well, than any criticism was in fact in vain.
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[quote=the traveler]member #2041,
i don't actually know anything about what you may or may not have done. i never said i do.
all i can do and all i did is to respond to what you have said about yourself.
this leads us to the conclusion that you either did what you have posted in here - which would make all i have said a valid statement - or that you did lie.
so please enlighten us or do you want to beat about the bush endlessly like opebo ?[/quote]
what i did was to intentionally use obvious hyperbole and obfurep001e the actual details, so that you personally did not actually know what i did or did not actually do in my interactions with thai ladies. because, as i was quite clear to point out repeatedly at that time, it was a) not any of your damn business, and b) utterly laughable for you to believe that your reply might in any way, shape or form, actually serve to influence the safety of your own behavior or that of others, by the action of your lecturing others on an anonymous forum. the purpose for my intentional obfurep001ion was to make it clear that the only actual control you, or anyone else, for that matter could possibly hope to have in affecting the safety of your own interactions, would be how you personally conducted yourself within those interactions. but, it's quite clear that you missed this point 6 months ago when we hashed it out, and you continue to do so to this very day.
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[quote=member #2041]what i did was to intentionally obfurep001e the actual details, so that you personally did not actually know what i did or did not actually do in my interactions with thai ladies. because, as i was quite clear to point out repeatedly at that time, it was a) not any of your damn business, and b) utterly laughable for you to believe that your reply might in any way, shape or form, actually serve to influence the safety of your own behavior or that of others, by the action of your lecturing others on an anonymous forum. the purpose for my intentional obfurep001ion was to make it clear that the only actual control you, or anyone else, for that matter could possibly hope to have in affecting the safety of your own interactions, would be how you personally conducted yourself within those interactions. but, it's quite clear that you missed this point 6 months ago when we hashed it out, and you continue to do so to this very day.[/quote]
funny though,
now we are were we started.
do you see the parallels ?
a) it's not any of your damn business (read my below post)
b) it's utterly laughable for you to believe that your reply might in any way, shape or form, actually serve to influence my behavior or that of others on if and how to respond to posts, by the action of your lecturing others on an anonymous forum.
btw, not i have missed the point but you did.
your behaviour does in fact influence my own safety in case of a breaking condom - as nobody can't eliminate all risks and this is something that isn't totally under my control - because a bigger number of infected people will increase my risk in running into a hiv carrier. that's no rocket science and even you should understand it.
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[QUOTE=The Traveler]Funny though,
now we are were we started.
Do you see the parallels ?
A) It's not any of your damn business (read below)
B) It's utterly laughable for you to believe that your reply might in any way, shape or form, actually serve to influence my behavior or that of others on if and how to respond to posts, by the action of your lecturing others on an anonymous forum.
BTW, not I have missed the point but you did.
Your behaviour does in fact influence my own safety in case of a breaking condom - as this is something that isn't totally under my control - because a bigger number of infected people will increase my risk in running into a HIV carrier. That's no rocket science and even you should understand it.[/QUOTE]
In fact, you are wrong. What I do or don't do with MY Thai lady has asymptotically zero impact on the likelihood of you encountering incremental risk when YOU interact with some other random Thai lady and your condom breaks. It's not rocket science, it's statistics - and I DO understand it, even though YOU clearly do not. A single data point/observation has asymptotically zero impact on a probability distribution drawn from a large population. You are trying to meaningfully impact the weight of a massive haystack by attempting to isolate a single straw from it. Your time is much better spent researching which condoms and which methodologies for using them will minimize breakage - and applying this lesson yourself - either that, or stay celibate - now THAT will make a difference in your incremental risk incurred.
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[QUOTE=Member #2041]In fact, you are wrong. What I do or don't do with MY Thai lady has asymptotically zero impact on the likelihood of you encountering incremental risk when YOU interact with some other random Thai lady and your condom breaks. It's not rocket science, it's statistics - and I DO understand it, even though YOU clearly do not. A single data point/observation has asymptotically zero impact on a probability distribution drawn from a large population. You are trying to meaningfully impact the weight of a massive haystack by attempting to isolate a single straw from it. Your time is much better spent researching which condoms and which methodologies for using them will minimize breakage - and applying this lesson yourself - either that, or stay celibate - now THAT will make a difference in your incremental risk incurred.[/QUOTE]
LOL, did you skip math ?
Have you ever heard of ascending powers ?
YOU will infect YOUR Thai lady, who will infect others, who will again infect others and so on. That's how an epedemic spreads and viruses reproduce. Put a single bacteria on a culture medium and watch how it divides endlessly. It's simply a question of the reproduction rate and time and one infected person may finally result in millions of infected people.
Or how do you think infections spread ? Put one person with Ebola in a big city like New York and see what will happen. Or do you remember SARS ?
So it's not just a static single data point but a dynamic one that reproduces by ascending powers !
YOU only have to infect 2 people in total, YOUR 2 Thai ladies only have to infect 2 people each, all those on the next level only have to infect again 2 people each and after repeating it 33 times the whole human mankind will be infected because 2³³ = 8.589.934.592. This is far more than the current world population which is estimated at 6.6 billion at Mai 2007.
If we would all be promiscuous and nobody would use comdoms we would be distinct in a few decades. Simply the fact that many people are monogamic or do use condoms saves us from distinction. Your survival depends on our sexual behaviour. You are like someone who is crossing a highway and hopes that people will break. If they do you claim that your behaviour was safe.
You are simply denying your responsibility and downplaying what impact your actions may have. In short : you are ignorant like most barebacking freaks.
Take a look at [url]http://www.worldmapper.org/[/url] they have quite interesting maps. They don't show maps in the conventional way but modify them as the eye is more able to catch different numbers by size rather than colour.
This is a map of the total population
[url]http://www.worldmapper.org/display.php?selected=2[/url]
This is a map of condom use by men
[url]http://www.worldmapper.org/display.php?selected=226[/url]
This is a map of condom use by women
[url]http://www.worldmapper.org/display.php?selected=225[/url]
And finally a map of HIV prevalence
[url]http://www.worldmapper.org/display.php?selected=227[/url]
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[QUOTE=The Traveler]LOL, did you skip math ?
Have you ever heard of ascending powers ?
YOU will infect YOUR Thai lady, who will infect others, who will again infect others and so on. That's how an epedemic spreads and viruses reproduce. Put a single bacteria on a culture medium and watch how it divides endlessly. It's simply a question of the reproduction rate and time and one infected person may finally result in millions of infected people.
Or how do you think infections spread ? Put one person with Ebola in a big city like New York and see what will happen.
So it's not just a static single data point but a dynamic one that reproduces by ascending powers !
You are simply denying your responsibility and downplaying what impact your actions may have. In short : you are ignorant like most barebacking freaks.
[/QUOTE]
No, I am NOT downplaying my own impact, nor am I the slightest bit ignorant. YOU, however are completely ignorant of what I am doing, and that will NEVER change. What I am downplaying is simply the validity of your attempts to devine what my impact in fact is upon you - because you can never hope to do so. Even were I to completely agree with you on this forum, you could not possibly hope to know what I was actually doing, and any belief that you had made your own actions less risky by suggesting to me a course of action would be completely incorrect - because there would be NOTHING upon which you could actually know that I followed the course of action you proscribed for me, even were I to acknowledge that I should and state unequivocally that I would follow said course.
Sorry Traveler, but your logic is fundamentally flawed - first of all, your assumption that I am infected in the first place is erroneous. As for ascending powers - once you multiply the total by zero, (which my actually being uninfected essentially does) it doesn't matter how high all the other powers are - the incremental impact on you is in fact zero. And 2nd, you don't even know if I am barebacking and you can NEVER know it, unless you were in the room with me at the time. The fact is, YOU are the ONLY one who can reduce your own risk, acting individually. You do it by regulating your own behavior. While you are attempting to impact MY behavior, you are in fact completely neglecting the behavior of the infinite number of individuals who are NOT me, some percentage of whom ARE carrying out risky behavior, without ever reading your own bloviations on this forum.
The fact is, you can only hope to impact your own risk factors by addressing the items under your control. And what an uninfected person does is irrelevant, and what an infected person whom you are failing to address does is going to be the one that infects you. You are engaged in a falacy.
If YOU become celibate, you can completely eliminate your own risk. I suggest that you would be much better off doing so, than yammering on and on to someone who's own behavior is both completely unknown to you, and completely irrelevant to your risk factors. Failing that, you should make your own risk/reward assessments in your own activities, just as I do, fully aware of the fact that OTHER folks who don't know you from Adam don't and won't give a damn about you, and you are the only one who bears that particular responsibility.
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Member #2041,
your argumentation is icompletely missing the point.
It doesn't matter if I know what you or others are doing or not doing. I never said that I do know or will modify my behaviour depending on yours. If you go bareback - and that was your initial stement a few months ago - then you do have an impact on my risk, no matter what.
BTW, all others who wear condoms do also have an impact on my risk, but they do not increase it.
It also doesn't matter if I am willing or not to take a certain risk, you still have an impact on that risk no matter how small or big that risk may be.
And even if you aren't infected now (should we trust you this time ?), you don't have to be the original source of the epedemic, you can be placed at any stage of the described system, but nonetheless you will be a part of it and spreading it sooner or later.
So how can you deny that a bigger number of infected people will have an impact on the residual risk we all face ?
Or do you deny the fact that a bigger number of infected people will increase the likelyhood of running into one of them ?
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Traveler and Member
While not meaning to get in the middle of your little tiff, this all seems kind of funny given that it grew out of a couple of other guys who wrote something in blue, which yanked Trav's chain.
Sorry. But, it's gotten kind of silly. Maybe we should go back to talking about 1Ball's pet meds or Retired Army's Head Space and Timing.
Anything, but this. Just my 2 baht's worth....
...I think I'll head over to the photo gallery to see what latest travesty of Thai pulcritude has been posted for our viewing displeasure.
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OTH;
yes it's silly in some way but it's also an interesting topic.
Member #2041 argumentation reminds me of Opebo, who was also denying his responsibility for his actions.
He doesn't want to see that he is part of a huge complex system in which all parts interact in one way or the other.
I agree with him - and ever did - that everybody has to make his own decisions and shouldn't modify his own behaviour depending on his beliefs or knowledge about the behaviour of others.
BTW, he doesn't understand that we agree in this point, as his repetitive argumentation and turning in circles proves.
But I disagree that he hasn't any impact on the residual risk. This risk exist independent from my beliefs or knowledge. And even if I try to minimize it by my own behaviour, it will still be there and it's the sum of everybody's behaviour. Therefore everybody has an impact on that risk, he may increase or decrease it, but he has an impact.
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[QUOTE=The Traveler]Member #2041,
your argumentation is icompletely missing the point.
It doesn't matter if I know what you or others are doing or not doing. I never said that I do know or will modify my behaviour depending on yours. If you go bareback - and that was your initial stement a few months ago - then you do have an impact on my risk, no matter what.
BTW, all others who wear condoms do also have an impact on my risk, but they do not increase it.
It also doesn't matter if I am willing or not to take a certain risk, you still have an impact on that risk no matter how small or big that risk may be.
And even if you aren't infected now (should we trust you this time ?), you don't have to be the original source of the epedemic, you can be placed at any stage of the described system, but nonetheless you will be a part of it and spreading it sooner or later.
So how can you deny that a bigger number of infected people will have an impact on the residual risk we all face ?
Or do you deny the fact that a bigger number of infected people will increase the likelyhood of running into one of them ?[/QUOTE]
Traveler, What I am absolutely denying is that your lecturing people on this anonymous forum has ANY impact whatsoever on your risk factors. Whether I agree with you, or disagree with you, or choose to state I agree with you while actually disagreeing with you, or actually agree with you while choosing to yank your chain, YOU cannot draw any meaningful conclusion at all, other than that you must control your OWN behaviour as your own risk/reward assesment guides you to. I can assure you, if you are entirely celibate, than what I do, and whether I end up infected or remain uninfected will continue to be completely irrelevant for you.
And no, I am not like Opebo. I do not in any way deny responsibility for my actions. I deny that YOU have anything whatsoever to do with my actions, nor do you even have the remotest of clues as to what they are. And conversely, because of this, me and my actions ought damn well not have any influence on yours. Unless, of course, you are a complete fool.
