General Reports

[QUOTE=Smoothy;2231782]You've obviously never been to Indonesia. There is no comparison. There are very few motorbikes on the streets in Thailand relative to Indonesia. At any red light in Jakarta at rush hour, there will be a couple hundred motorbikes stacked up at the front of the cue in between and all around the cars when the light changes to green. You don't see that in Thailand.[/QUOTE]Never been to Indonesia but driven all over Thailand. Even today I put in a good 50 KM a day, I do lots of the stuff local Thais do to keep myself from sitting at the long unnecessary signals including riding on the sidewalks and going down the wrong way the difference I do it believe it or not with caution.

As noted, the road in Thailand is very good they spend billions to kiss the Chinese ass to move them around the problem with their ranking, 1st in the World and that includes Indonesia, 25,000 death a year, 85 percent comes from the motorbike sector, the rest of the 15 percent comes from drunk drivers, it is projected something like a 1 million injuries to hospital with billions spent on taking care of those who don't die that are paralyzed or brain dead?

When I read the discussion and look at the photos it isn't congestion that is killing Thais, the fact they have taken a vehicle and the rules from the West and turn them upside down including how to properly execute a simple maneuver like a left or right turn. Majority of the problems are self-inflicted due to a lack of patience, consideration and courteous. Then you add on the poor design of their roads and the long wait at intersection lights it is a breeding ground for death. Outside of Bangkok, the roads are smooth and long including in Pattaya. Pattaya Sukhumvit, the lights are timed at 120 seconds to the next light so take a guess why some travel 120 plus they don't want to waiting at the next light.

Thailand has rules but the majority don't under them and that includes the government officials and all the BIB, the main reason why in 10 years with millions from the WHO, they continue to move up because no matter what they come up with it is just laughable to the foreigners. Enforcement is what teaches but there is like 1 percent chance you would get stop in Pattaya so outside upcountry what you think it is going to be? Here it is pedal to metal no such thing as slowing down the theory is you got to look after me, me first no such thing as right or way or even losing it. I've been at an intersection where I stopped because I could see and hear an oncoming car hit the gas indicating I bigger so watch out to only have another biker fly past me never even consider the reason why I was stopped twice dead on arrival before the guy even hit the floor. I've seen vehicles stop work their way slowly to make their turns having already taken away oncoming vehicles right away yet they end up crashing into the vehicle as if they did it on purpose.

What is happening here in Thailand can be easily fixed but there isn't anyone or the lost of face preventing them from asking for outside help. Every traffic congestion problem isn't due to the volume of vehicles it is self-inflicted due to lack of education mentally which is required in driving.

I quite often walk by the Ploenchit / Sukhumvit entrance to the highway. Traffic coming from the Ploenchit direction is not allowed through to Sukhumvit and must take the highway. Now while there is no obvious danger to pedestrians or drivers going straight through (simply traffic flow management) this is strictly enforced by a team of 3 to 4 BIB who collect the associated fines. Meanwhile meters up the road at the soi 3 intersection motor cyclists and drivers routinely drive through red lights, block pedestrians from safely crossing all under the watchful eye of the bib in the control hut. A little further along Sukhumvit some 7 to 8 Thetsakij spend their day collecting fines from foreigners who drop cigarette butts. Don't get me wrong I live here, I love the country, the people, the food, the massages but its obvious at least to me priorities have to change if they hope to get a grip on what is a costly national tragedy both in terms of lives lost and the consequent negative impact on economic growth.

[QUOTE=Franciscass;2232134]I quite often walk by the Ploenchit / Sukhumvit entrance to the highway. Traffic coming from the Ploenchit direction is not allowed through to Sukhumvit and must take the highway. Now while there is no obvious danger to pedestrians or drivers going straight through (simply traffic flow management) this is strictly enforced by a team of 3 to 4 BIB who collect the associated fines. Meanwhile meters up the road at the soi 3 intersection motor cyclists and drivers routinely drive through red lights, block pedestrians from safely crossing all under the watchful eye of the bib in the control hut. A little further along Sukhumvit some 7 to 8 Thetsakij spend their day collecting fines from foreigners who drop cigarette butts. Don't get me wrong I live here, I love the country, the people, the food, the massages but its obvious at least to me priorities have to change if they hope to get a grip on what is a costly national tragedy both in terms of lives lost and the consequent negative impact on economic growth.[/QUOTE]Here is how I deal with the blatant weirdness here:

1. I wear my seatbelt in cabs.

2. I make sure my battery is charged so I can watch videos if stuck on the skytrain.

3. I don't get shit faced drunk, don't do dope, don't litter and smile a lot.

4. I avoid Asoke / Thonglo / Nana on Wed, Friday and Saturday nights after midnight. In fact, once a month is fine for me.

5. I only use MC taxis for back Soi trips.

6. I wear a bandanna over my face on the canal boats.

7. I don't question why. I just go with the flow.

8. I hit TF and WeChat once a day to keep the stable filled.

9. If I get the squirts, I just ride it out.

Life is good.

[QUOTE=Smoothy;2231782]You've obviously never been to Indonesia. There is no comparison. [/QUOTE]Yeh I thought I made that evidently plain.

[QUOTE=LittleBigMan;2232029]As noted, the road in Thailand is very good they spend billions to kiss the Chinese ass to move them around the problem with their ranking, 1st in the World and that includes Indonesia, 25,000 death a year, 85 percent comes from the motorbike sector, the rest of the 15 percent comes from drunk drivers, it is projected something like a 1 million injuries to hospital with billions spent on taking care of those who don't die that are paralyzed or brain dead?
[/QUOTE]Total numbers don't mean much, have to compare to total population and give a percentage killed on roads, or numbers per 100,000 of population. China would for sure have the highest numbers of persons killed, no doubt.

On Wikipedia article [URL]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate[/URL].

It suggests Thailand is 2nd worst far behind Libya and yet twice as bad as Indonesia. Philippines is even much lower than Indonesia. Is it that so many people cannot afford a vehicle or use a low powered motor scooter, or even a bicycle?

Could be Indonesia has many more motorcycle accidents, but if traffic is slow maybe only a small percentage are fatal.

Thailand maybe optimal to combine Dunkedness, youth craziness, speed and power, motorcycles, percentage of population owning a vehicle, lack of driver training and ability, poor care of accident victims, drivers that flee the scene, police and politician incompetence, etc. , and hence result in higher death rate.

Scandinavia has the lowest rates in the world, dare I suggest it relates to the social culture and education, and maybe also lowest rates of corruption in the world?

[QUOTE=Syzygies;2232173]
Could be Indonesia has many more motorcycle accidents, but if traffic is slow maybe only a small percentage are fatal.

Thailand maybe optimal to combine Dunkedness, youth craziness, speed and power, motorcycles, percentage of population owning a vehicle, lack of driver training and ability, poor care of accident victims, drivers that flee the scene, police and politician incompetence, etc. , and hence result in higher death rate.[/QUOTE]I find accidents in both Indonesia and Thailand to be far less evident than in the USA. I see a major accident in the USA every week. I think the reason they don't die in those major accidents in the US is likely due to the health care system being superior so their lives are saved. As far as accidents, I have never seen anywhere worse than the USA. As far as traffic, Indonesia is the worst I've seen. But it does move turtle slow and the car drivers are very careful of the motorbikes (who are not careful at all).

That being said, just comparing the two countries, I feel much safer on the roads of Thailand than I do on the roads of Indonesia.

[QUOTE=Syzygies;2232173]
Scandinavia has the lowest rates in the world, dare I suggest it relates to the social culture and education, and maybe also lowest rates of corruption in the world?[/QUOTE]I think social culture has quite a lot to do with it. E.g. macho behaviour is probably more common in Thailand than in Scandinavia. (I'm a tough guy and a very good driver. Helmets, safety belts and driving slowly and carefully are for wimps!)

[QUOTE=Mogwai;2232264]I think social culture has quite a lot to do with it. E.g. macho behaviour is probably more common in Thailand than in Scandinavia. (I'm a tough guy and a very good driver. Helmets, safety belts and driving slowly and carefully are for wimps!)[/QUOTE]I think this has more to do with education and civic development.

If my understanding of history is right, the Vikings were probably one of the most macho races on earth at one point. But not very educated or civilized. And then over the ages, the Nordic countries have become one of the most civilized and educated places on earth, leaving countries like Thailand to appear more macho! LOL.

[QUOTE=Syzygies;2232173]Total numbers don't mean much, have to compare to total population and give a percentage killed on roads, or numbers per 100,000 of population. China would for sure have the highest numbers of persons killed, no doubt.

On Wikipedia article [URL]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate[/URL].

It suggests Thailand is 2nd worst far behind Libya and yet twice as bad as Indonesia. Philippines is even much lower than Indonesia. Is it that so many people cannot afford a vehicle or use a low powered motor scooter, or even a bicycle?

Could be Indonesia has many more motorcycle accidents, but if traffic is slow maybe only a small percentage are fatal.

Thailand maybe optimal to combine Dunkedness, youth craziness, speed and power, motorcycles, percentage of population owning a vehicle, lack of driver training and ability, poor care of accident victims, drivers that flee the scene, police and politician incompetence, etc. , and hence result in higher death rate.

Scandinavia has the lowest rates in the world, dare I suggest it relates to the social culture and education, and maybe also lowest rates of corruption in the world?[/QUOTE]One can always formulate a reason or use another country like USA Scandinavia, to justify their position I've heard your reasoning before but in the end, the equation used by statistician applied to all the countries, they didn't just wake up and say to themselves lets get Thailand and twist and form another standard for them.

As of 2017, By the World Health Organization who donates once a year close to 5 million to fix the problem Thailand is currently #1, already surpassed Libya.

[QUOTE=Smoothy;2232178]That being said, just comparing the two countries, I feel much safer on the roads of Thailand than I do on the roads of Indonesia.[/QUOTE]Our sense of risk can be deceiving. For example, many people are afraid of flying, yet almost nobody dreads the taxi ride to the airport, which is far more likely to kill them. Roads in Thailand are far better than in Indonesia. It feels safer, people go faster, and more of them die.

[QUOTE=LittleBigMan;2232483]One can always formulate a reason or use another country like USA Scandinavia, to justify their position I've heard your reasoning before but in the end, the equation used by statistician applied to all the countries, they didn't just wake up and say to themselves lets get Thailand and twist and form another standard for them.

As of 2017, By the World Health Organization who donates once a year close to 5 million to fix the problem Thailand is currently #1, already surpassed Libya.[/QUOTE]I've driven two or three times in Thailand, was frightened each time, and finally gave it up, though I live in the Philippines, am quite habituated to driver insanity and yet drive here every day. I think the major difference in driving fatalities between the two countries can likely be attributed to poorer road conditions in the Philippines. Thailand's roads are far superior, hence drivers can indulge their insanity at higher speed, hence there are more fatalities. The roads are generally so poor here that it's difficult to sustain a speed of more than 30 kph, so the number of fatalities is smaller. The poor discipline, out of control quotient between the two countries appears to me to be about equal.

GE.

[QUOTE=GoodEnough;2232509]I've driven two or three times in Thailand, was frightened each time, and finally gave it up, though I live in the Philippines, am quite habituated to driver insanity and yet drive here every day. I think the major difference in driving fatalities between the two countries can likely be attributed to poorer road conditions in the Philippines. Thailand's roads are far superior, hence drivers can indulge their insanity at higher speed, hence there are more fatalities. The roads are generally so poor here that it's difficult to sustain a speed of more than 30 kph, so the number of fatalities is smaller. The poor discipline, out of control quotient between the two countries appears to me to be about equal.

GE.[/QUOTE]The real scary thing about driving in Thailand is that the Thai people just don't understand how bad and dangerous drivers they are! When I point out Thailand's road death figures to my tertiary educated Thai friends, they look at me with that 'Yeah, so what?' look that Thai's get when they don't understand a problem. No concept of public safety at all in Thailand.

[QUOTE=Stykler;2232594]The real scary thing about driving in Thailand is that the Thai people just don't understand how bad and dangerous drivers they are! When I point out Thailand's road death figures to my tertiary educated Thai friends, they look at me with that 'Yeah, so what?' look that Thai's get when they don't understand a problem. No concept of public safety at all in Thailand.[/QUOTE]You just stated what I've been saying in my post. I've had brief conversations and encounters with a few government officials supposedly educated and elite type of Thais and more than my share of BIB and they have no idea because they come from the same school of driving. I'm sure many of us have seen off-duty police and who are they kidding with their white t-shirts, brown pants, and shiny shoes or the higher ranks one who's running around without any helmet. That look as you described is " this is Thailand " as you noted " don't understand " is because they truly don't understand no one has ever taught them to even properly make a right or left turn without holding up traffic. Thais don't even know when a lane is offered to them how to use it to merge into traffic.

When the ranking came out last year Thailand topping the list, many Thais including the government felt it was fake news? Recently studies by their own if it wasn't for all the accidents their GDP would be something like 26 percent? Driving and the death is a bit of a pet [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord134][CodeWord134][/url] to me since I have something at stake here but in the end as long as the Thais are in charge of changing it don't hold your breath and if they do the exchange rate wouldn't be what it is here in Thailand?

[QUOTE=Stykler;2232594]The real scary thing about driving in Thailand is that the Thai people just don't understand how bad and dangerous drivers they are! When I point out Thailand's road death figures to my tertiary educated Thai friends, they look at me with that 'Yeah, so what?' look that Thai's get when they don't understand a problem. No concept of public safety at all in Thailand.[/QUOTE]You know the sad irony of so many deaths caused by speeding is that Thais are admirably such a laid back mai pen rai race. Normally life is lived at a relatively slow pace no need to rush. So why when they sit behind the wheel or atop a motorbike are they in such a hurry? Puzzling.

I am back in USA. I want to say thank you to everyone who answered my questions here over the last year. I spent a total of 8 months in thailand over 2 trips. I learned a lot from posters here who took the time to answer my questions.