Safe Sex and Sex Related Discussions in Thailand

[QUOTE=Escort Fan]Personnally I don't think people should should judge those who choose BB. It's the choice of two consenting adults.[/QUOTE]You missed many things here.

1) This is not a choice of two *informed* consenting adults. If I consent to playing Russian roulette based on wishful thinking that chance of dying is negligible, that's not true consent. If a a busy girl goes bareback with many of her customers, she will get HIV in a year or three, simple as that.

2) It's an unequal bargain -- a punter on a 7 day holiday may well accept the risk of going bareback, but a busy girl should not accept the much larger risk. (going with 100x more people plus M->F HIV transmission being much higher than F->M).

3) Health is one of the things that should just not be for sale. Quite a few people may be willing to sell a kidney. That doesn't mean they should be casually allowed to do it, especially if they're woefully uninformed about the risks, or choose not to think about them.

[those going covered shouldn't worry, because covers are indeed meant to protect them so they should be safe anyway. Of course there is always the .01% factor that the condom breaks]

You're grossly underestimating the public health risks.

Condoms provide a degree of protection, but just reduce the risk. I'd just not punt if HIV prevalence was 30%+ condoms or not. It's not only condom breakage, fluids are exchanged in other ways (fingers etc.).

People who go bareback with prostitutes are analogous to selfish pricks who drive recklessly at 180 km/h on a public highway.

The risk on each occasion seems small, and it helps if all other drivers wear a seatbelt. Still, in the end, it adds up and kills a good number of people for someone's minor pleasure.

[QUOTE=Escort Fan]....On my side I would only go BB if I choose to keep the girl for a long period like a few days, and I had a full STD HIV blood test done.[/QUOTE]Perhaps STD is not the only danger of unprotected sex with the lady. Unwanted pregnancy is also something to worry about.

I've known one girl in Pattaya who used to work at a bar. She got fired from her job because she had unprotected sex with a customer and got pregnant.

She was a friend of my Thai lady whom I took from the same bar. And that's how I got to know her.

I've seen her daily walking and soliciting customers on the Walking Street in Pattaya, even while her stomach was getting bigger with her child.

Eventually she had to stop working. She went to her village in Isaan, gave birth to her child, left the child in her parent's care, and went back to work in Pattaya. And of course when she came back to Pattaya, she had to redouble her efforts to earn money. Because she had the added burden of supporting her child. She had no way of finding or contacting the father of the child.

And of course not all girls who get pregnant choose to keep their child. There is an orphanage in Pattaya. And probably a good portion of the kids there are from unwanted pregnancies with farang customers.

Perhaps there is not much chance someone would force you to support your child, if you have unprotected sex with a Thai girl and get her pregnant. But even knowing that you may have a child who lives in difficult circumstances and whom nobody loves can be a heavy burden on your conscience.

Interesting angle, well put.

[QUOTE=Crocodilexp]You missed many things here.

1) This is not a choice of two *informed* consenting adults. If I consent to playing Russian roulette based on wishful thinking that chance of dying is negligible, that's not true consent. If a a busy girl goes bareback with many of her customers, she will get HIV in a year or three, simple as that.

2) It's an unequal bargain -- a punter on a 7 day holiday may well accept the risk of going bareback, but a busy girl should not accept the much larger risk. (going with 100x more people plus M->F HIV transmission being much higher than F->M).

3) Health is one of the things that should just not be for sale. Quite a few people may be willing to sell a kidney. That doesn't mean they should be casually allowed to do it, especially if they're woefully uninformed about the risks, or choose not to think about them.

[those going covered shouldn't worry, because covers are indeed meant to protect them so they should be safe anyway. Of course there is always the .01% factor that the condom breaks]

You're grossly underestimating the public health risks.

Condoms provide a degree of protection, but just reduce the risk. I'd just not punt if HIV prevalence was 30%+ condoms or not. It's not only condom breakage, fluids are exchanged in other ways (fingers etc.).

People who go bareback with prostitutes are analogous to selfish pricks who drive recklessly at 180 km/h on a public highway.

The risk on each occasion seems small, and it helps if all other drivers wear a seatbelt. Still, in the end, it adds up and kills a good number of people for someone's minor pleasure.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Escort Fan]...that's as probable as you winning the lottery.
On my side I would only go BB if I choose to keep the girl for a long period like a few days, and I had a full STD HIV blood test done.[/QUOTE]

Mr Fan, if winning the lottery were as common as broken condoms, I'd be buying a lot more lottery tickets! As for having a complete STD/HIV test done - that's just silly. Gonorrhea, HIV, chlamydia and herpes won't show up in a blood test and all STDs can go through periods of no physical symptoms. A single negative HIV blood test does NOT mean the person is not infected and contagious, it only means their body has not yet started producing antibodies to the virus. We always suggest repeat testing after a period of months. If the second test is negative and the patient has remained celibate or faithful to an uninfected partner, THEN we say for sure they are not infected.

Dan 7373 - The SFClinic chart made it appear there was ZERO risk for F to M oral sex transmission. I'm sorry, but no matter what the statistics say, that is misinformation. As I said, a cock can push the infection further back in the throat and, without the enzymatic protection of saliva, this makes the chances of passing a disease highly more likely. I mentioned that even I have treated men with throat infections caused by gonorrhea. When you find this, you must suspect homosexual behavior as the cock gets further into the throat (I grow repetitious) but, in many cases, it is found to be transmitted by male on infected female oral sex. I do agree with most of what you've said. Personally, I don't worry much about oral sex because I know the statistics and I select my partners carefully. Most of the time...

[QUOTE=Mick Licker]IMHO your HO isn't worth much.
Clamydia is quite easy to catch. Research the Internet.
I have had Clamydia 2 times and no other STDs.
Both times condoms were worn for sex properly.
Once I got it from BBBJ with girl from the Grace Hotel Coffee shop.
2nd time got it in the left eye off my finger that had misbehaved with girls at J One MP most likely.[/QUOTE]

I don't mind what Internet says, I talk about personal and fellows monger experience (which is very,very long) and I still believe what I said : Not [b]easy [/b]to get clamidya with unprotected blow job and , unless you go with the lowest of the low , you got to be very unlucky to get it .Talking about statistic , how many people you know getting clamydia from BJ,seriously ?

[QUOTE=Animby]Mr Fan, if winning the lottery were as common as broken condoms, I'd be buying a lot more lottery tickets! As for having a complete STD/HIV test done - that's just silly. Gonorrhea, HIV, chlamydia and herpes won't show up in a blood test and all STDs can go through periods of no physical symptoms. A single negative HIV blood test does NOT mean the person is not infected and contagious, it only means their body has not yet started producing antibodies to the virus. We always suggest repeat testing after a period of months. If the second test is negative and the patient has remained celibate or faithful to an uninfected partner, THEN we say for sure they are not infected.
[/QUOTE]

Two points here -

1) There are different types of HIV tests. What you say is only true with the cheapest ELISA test that detect antibodies. These antibodies usually show up between four weeks and three months. There is another test called the PCR-DNA test that tests for the actual virus and detects it within a few days to two weeks after an infection. Your clinic probably doesn't do this test. It is done by AIM which has affiliate clinics in most major cities in the US. Blood is taken and fed-exed to California and tested there. This test is commonly used in the porn industry and to test newborns of infected mothers who don't produce antibodies to HIV yet. It is expensive to have this test done.

2) The ELISA test is a nonspecific test and has a high percentage of false positives. This is why the FDA states that "a positive ELISA test is not a diagnosis of HIV infection." It tests for protiens that are not specific to HIV and cross-react with a number of other diseases. In places like Africa that are rife with disease the false positive rate can be as high as 90%. So it's true that a negative test doesn't always mean a person doesn't have the virus but a positive test doesn't always mean a person has it either.

[QUOTE=Marcostraight]I don't mind what Internet says, I talk about personal and fellows monger experience (which is very,very long) and I still believe what I said : Not easy to get clamidya with unprotected blow job and , unless you go with the lowest of the low , you got to be very unlucky to get it .Talking about statistic , how many people you know getting clamydia from BJ,seriously ? [/QUOTE]

I totally agree. I've had countless BBBJs in my time and never caught anything. I don't know anyone who said they have either. The only place where I've witnessed guys stating they were infected with clamydia or gono via BJ is on ISG. It's kinda strange.

[QUOTE=Dan7373]If you are going to do unportected oral sex on Thai women despite the dangers. Then I suggest that you rinse your mouth with mouthwash immediately afterwards. Mouthwash is designed to kill bacteria. And it may kill some viruses too. It won't give you 100% safety. But it will probably decrease your chances of getting an infection.[/QUOTE]
If you want to have an extra measure of protection, try Chlorhexidine Gluconate. Dentists perscribe it for many things including periodontal disease. It will kill any germs in the mouth, I guarantee!

[QUOTE=Dan7373]Perhaps STD is not the only danger of unprotected sex with the lady. Unwanted pregnancy is also something to worry about.

I've known one girl in Pattaya who used to work at a bar. She got fired from her job because she had unprotected sex with a customer and got pregnant.

She was a friend of my Thai lady whom I took from the same bar. And that's how I got to know her.

I've seen her daily walking and soliciting customers on the Walking Street in Pattaya, even while her stomach was getting bigger with her child.

Eventually she had to stop working. She went to her village in Isaan, gave birth to her child, left the child in her parent's care, and went back to work in Pattaya. And of course when she came back to Pattaya, she had to redouble her efforts to earn money. Because she had the added burden of supporting her child. She had no way of finding or contacting the father of the child.

And of course not all girls who get pregnant choose to keep their child. There is an orphanage in Pattaya. And probably a good portion of the kids there are from unwanted pregnancies with farang customers.

Perhaps there is not much chance someone would force you to support your child, if you have unprotected sex with a Thai girl and get her pregnant. But even knowing that you may have a child who lives in difficult circumstances and whom nobody loves can be a heavy burden on your conscience.[/QUOTE] If a girl is in this line work she should have the tools of the trade like birthcontrol. It is like a carpenter without a hammer and a plumber without a pipe wrench. When going bareback you would think they are on birthcontrol. I wonder how many freelancers and bargirls are not on birthcontrol.

[QUOTE=The Corn Hole]1) There are different types of HIV tests.[/QUOTE]

Yes. You're right. There's also the Western Blot procedure and an exam using electronmicroscopy to directly identify the presence of the virus. I started to mention these in my post but decided not to muddy the waters since the average punter is unlikely to have access to these advanced and VERY expensive tests or to use them on a Thai bar girl he wants to screw for a month or two.

I haven't priced these tests for a long time but I imagine they haven't gotten any cheaper: PCR-DNA probably costs somewhere around US$1500, WBlot around $400 and direct visualization generally isn't even available except as part of a research protocol. More, there are only a handful of labs in the WORLD that will do an HIV PCR screening and a handful of advanced research institutes that do direct visualization.

The ELISA and latex agglutination procedures are not proof positive of infection and, you're right, only test for certain proteins produced by the body's immune response. I don't believe you're right in saying there is a high incidence of false positive tests (saying the virus is present when it is not). With modern methods I believe the confidence is well above 98%. And, no diagnosis of HIV would be made then, anyway. The ELISA results would be confirmed with a subsequent Western Blot test. Then the reliability approaches 100%.

BY the way, there are even other DNA and nucleic acid tests being used to identify the presence of the HIV virus but, again, they are not commonly available. Also, in an earlier post I stated there were no FDA approved home test kits for HIV. I have it on reliable information that I am wrong. A test is available but it requires sending a drop of blood to a lab and waiting for results. To My thinking, this does not qualify as a home test. Just home specimen collection.

I have slept with about 12 Thai girls in the last year and half I know thats small number compared to some of you hounds but I have never been offered bareback. I never asked for it either. One school girl I was with on my last vacation I joking offered to give her another baby in which she declined haha. I made it clear to her though I was playing around. I even had some outright ask for a condom from me, I think its good if they do. I would be turned off if a girl offered me bareback right away no matter what country working girl or square.

"I would be turned off if a girl offered me bareback right away no matter what country working girl or square." I wouldn't.

[quote=animby]i haven't priced these tests for a long time but i imagine they haven't gotten any cheaper: pcr-dna probably costs somewhere around us$1500, wblot around $400 and direct visualization generally isn't even available except as part of a research protocol. more, there are only a handful of labs in the world that will do an hiv pcr screening and a handful of advanced research institutes that do direct visualization.[/quote]
if you are in los angeles, california, you can get the pcr-dna test at the same clinics where the local adult industry talent gets tested. it is just us$100 for this test only. if you are mister cheap bastard, you can get the elisa test there for $35. when i was in the area last fall, i went for the "everything panel", that was $300 which included the pcr-dna aids test. i thought that was a good deal for all the tests you get. i know that they send your [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord109][CodeWord109][/url] and blood samples to a lab somewhere so maybe it's a matter of finding out what other clinics this lab does business with.

if you find yourself in the los angeles area anytime soon, you might want to check it out. [url]http://www.aim-med.org/[/url] i suppose i should crosspost this somewhere useful...

[QUOTE=Animby]
The ELISA and latex agglutination procedures are not proof positive of infection and, you're right, only test for certain proteins produced by the body's immune response. I don't believe you're right in saying there is a high incidence of false positive tests (saying the virus is present when it is not). With modern methods I believe the confidence is well above 98%. And, no diagnosis of HIV would be made then, anyway. The ELISA results would be confirmed with a subsequent Western Blot test. Then the reliability approaches 100%.
[/QUOTE]

No, actually the accuracy of the ELISA test alone is nowhere near 98% if that is what you're inferring. It's not even 50% and with more and more people in the "low risk" catagory getting tested an accurate positive result is probably even lower than that! Even with a confirmed positive WB test I don't think it's 98% like you said. If the ELISA test had a very low false positive rate I don't really see a need to confirm it with WB. In any case only 25 -30% of positive ELISA patients that test again with PCR test positive for the actual virus itself. This is why I don't have this test done because of it's extreme inaccuracy.

I got the PCR test done for $200 including doctor's visit. Chances are there is a clinic or two that will do it in every major city. I don't know which clinics perform this test in Thailand. To use this test on a Thai bargirl is kind of silly I agree. A standard ELISA would be good enough in my view. But still, it could take 3 months for the antibodies to show up in the blood. Yet another reason this test is flawed.

[QUOTE=The Corn Hole]No, actually the accuracy of the ELISA test alone is nowhere near 98% [/QUOTE]

I stand corrected re pricing of the tests. A little research has shown they have indeed declined dramatically. I suppose, like most tech, as it becomes more common, prices go down.

As for the rest of my post, I stand by my stats but won't argue them. The main point is - this is the common test that is done and it does NOT demonstrate early infections. It requires time for the antibodies to present in the blood which means you cannot use it less than several weeks after inoculation. Further, as the antibody proteins are variable in their presentation, the test might not be positive for several months after inoculation.

Therefore, screening your bargirls with the most common test is not adequate. And any documentation they might present you is likely inadequate.

True story: I was recently working in an Arabic nation that required an HIV exam prior to issuing my work visa. I passed with flying colors. Although I noticed the blood type listed on the test was not mine...

Beware of developing nation medical laboratories.

I would.. because then it would mean she had barebacked every piece of gutter filth from here to there.. and was past caring.

[QUOTE=Johnson994]"I would be turned off if a girl offered me bareback right away no matter what country working girl or square." I wouldn't.[/QUOTE]