Bangkok Reports

[QUOTE=Bonzo1]Dear Jackson:

On behalf of many of us here who are sick and tired of these forums being littered with pages upon pages of diatribes about "overpaying,” disparaging and admonishing comments to other members, and the futile, delusional belief that ISG members are able to control the market, I would like to make a case for implementing new policy regarding this topic...[/QUOTE]
Aww, come on, Bonzo … with all due respect and no disparagement intended, don’t you think you’re becoming a bit hysterical over this issue? Now we need official regulations about the discussion of over/under payment opinions? I mean, I agree with you that big spenders don’t affect the market exactly as the cheap Charlie’s complain, but do you really want to stifle their opinions merely because they differ from yours? That’s a little drastic, isn’t it?

Does this mean that if a poster reports that he paid 100 baht to a baht bus driver to go four blocks on Beach Road in Pattaya, the next poster should think twice about telling the guy he overpaid by 90 baht, for fear of getting banned?

Some posters here have actually THANKED other posters for pointing out that they overpaid for this or that service, including sexual services. Such advice, even though it might seem disparaging, can be regarded as a real benefit to the membership. Certainly, we all retain the right to agree or disagree with any opinions expressed by posters and I think it would be wise to keep it that way.

[QUOTE=Daddy07]Aww, come on, Bonzo … with all due respect and no disparagement intended, don’t you think you’re becoming a bit hysterical over this issue? Now we need official regulations about the discussion of over/under payment opinions? I mean, I agree with you that big spenders don’t affect the market exactly as the cheap Charlie’s complain, but do you really want to stifle their opinions merely because they differ from yours? That’s a little drastic, isn’t it?

Does this mean that if a poster reports that he paid 100 baht to a baht bus driver to go four blocks on Beach Road in Pattaya, the next poster should think twice about telling the guy he overpaid by 90 baht, for fear of getting banned?

Some posters here have actually THANKED other posters for pointing out that they overpaid for this or that service, including sexual services. Such advice, even though it might seem disparaging, can be regarded as a real benefit to the membership. Certainly, we all retain the right to agree or disagree with any opinions expressed by posters and I think it would be wise to keep it that way.[/QUOTE]

With all due respect, not at all.

1. I'm not talking about a few innocuous comments here and there, or even the helpful advice -- I'm talking about the disparaging, whining, authoritative posts that repeatedly occur not only on the BKK forum but on pretty much every forum. It's a broken record, in more ways that one.

2. Many other members have requested the very same thing, for years, across all forums.

3. See my analogy to the safe sex policies. What you wrote could apply just as easily to that subject, yet there is a policy for it -- for good reason.

4. I am differentiating between comments and useful advice about prices (e.g. your bus example, and your THANKED observation) versus the preachy condemnations and irrational beliefs about "spoiling the market," the latter which are clutter at best, and at worst antagonistic and serve to discourage people from posting their real experiences.

5. The only alternative I suppose would be to consider having the debates, futilely, ad naseum and ad inifinitum. Personally I think 8+ years is more than long enough already, and a simple policy addition (which actually really isn't even an addition since it's part of the ISG rules to not be antagonizing already) could spare us all the clutter and harassment.

I do agree that there's a bit of a fine line and perhaps would be a bit hard to really enforce, but anything to discourage it would be beneficial, I think.

All the best,

-B-

Pretty fun place. I was surprised, by comparison to my former visits there years before when it was Nana Disco or something like that, by the quality of lookers there (perhaps just my limited experience).

Took home two on separate nights. First was a dud with huge stretch marks. Actually it wasn't entirely her bad as I was pretty drunk, but we just weren't clicking. Second was a great gal, though not really one of the stunners to be frank - I chose her primarily because I enjoyed her company, which is what I wanted that night.

Neither ever mentioned price. I gave the first 500 to leave, i.e. we fooled around a bit but never had sex (in retrospect that was a bit cheap of me since she did try, but also I pulled her quite late and she probably wouldn't have gotten any other business anyway, I suppose,) and the second I gave 2000 for ST plus 100 cab fare. The first was not too happy but didn't make a huge fuss, and the second thanked me profusely.

Overall I think it is a good late night option, especially for those staying in the lower Suk area. My guess, and it's purely a guess, is that prices would range from 1000 to 3000, ST or LT, depending on the girl and the time of night, though I imagine there is better info on that elsewhere here (I haven't looked.)

-B-

The two nights I went to each place they were jammed (random selection of nights, some weekend and some Monday, Sunday, etc.) Climax seems to get busy after midnight or so, whereas Bossy really starts to pick up around 3am...though not exactly quiet at 1:30am. Had a blast every time in both places, though at times it was so jammed that it was a bit hard to move around.

The 4 girls from these places (only one discussed in advance):

Climax 1 - 3000 LT, including all of the next day, +2000 tip, +shopping +dinner together at Long Table (I don't consider that part of her payment but rather part of her service.) I know this girl from prior trips and she's got a porn star body and tons of high end clients. She never asks for money specifically so I have no idea what she would be willing to go for, but this is the amount I wanted to pay.

Climax 2 - 2000 LT, plus ~300 baht of shopping on Suk and cheap thai food lunch the next day. Great time, not sure why I only gave her 2000 other than that was just what I had in my wallet (besides a few hundreds.)

Bossy 1 - 2000 ST, fun girl but I was beat. Gave her 100 baht for taxi as well.

Bossy 2 - 7000 LT. Amazing girl, exactly my type, and did a whole lot of "extras" for the extra money. She only goes clubbing a couple times a month and has a regular job, but the job is very flexible as her friend is her boss and her friend and I got along really well. Consequently, she's available to me now 24/7, which I also like and consider part of what I'm paying for.

That spams a pretty wide range of prices at only two places. On other visits in the past I've been quoted between 1000 ST and 10,000 LT, so it seems my experiences fall within the "normal" range. My feeling overall is that both these places have devoted pros and semi-pros there, the semi's may even go for free with some people, but overall the devoted pros are probably more often than not the better value, whereas the semi's are usually there partying with their friends and, in my experience, a lot more fun to pick up (at any price.).

YMMV.

-B-

I knew I was forgetting something...but how I forgot this one I have no idea. I made a third trip to Bossy earlier this month (actually it was the first trip of this batch about which I'm reporting), after a night at Pent, and holy cow was it off the hook!! Met a girl who was passing through BKK on her way from some remote village to another, who claimed (later) to have not been laid for over a year and was very picky. Somehow we clicked and partied with her friend for a while, then back to my hotel, where she put on quite a show, highlighted by requesting a beer, then giving me BBBJ while alternating between drinking the beer and using it to provide a "cooling pleasure" to me, and then she proceeded to use the beer bottle as a dildo (on herself, to be clear). Finally ended up fucking her brains out and then wanted to COF, so she re-inserted the beer bottle while I finished.

Has anyone else had this happen before? This is gonna sound incredible but it's actually the second time a girl I've taken home in BKK has dildo'd herself with a beer bottle (first time was in March.) Is it a new thing going around? Here's to hoping!

No money ever mentioned. I asked her to leave sometime around 6am so I could catch some zzz's, and slipped 3000 in her purse. She saw the money and said, "I wasn't going to ask you for money, but thanks." Worth every baht.

That's it for tonight. Need to get some dinner. More updates on Escorts and Gogo experiences later in the week.

Happy trails.

-B-

In all Due respect Bonzo1!

I would have to agree with Daddy07, and I do respect what you have to say regarding overpaying and I personal don't really care if anyone overpays or not as long as they are having a good time. I don't think a few who overpay or underpay is going to control the market one way or the other. But I do believe that they have the right to express their opinions in this forum. Forum to me is define as a discussion and not something that is suppose to be all good and rosie and black and white! ISG isn't a sex site that is only a FAQ, questions are ask and they are answer sometimes it requires more but I don't think in this particular discussion at this time anyone is being targeted unfairly and if that came across in that matter the person have already apologise and explain himself.

In fact the topic like always was dying down until you wrote your comments to Jackson in this Bangkok thread doing exactly what you accuse and reprimand others as to their " belief, paranoid, and hypocritical. From writing your post you could easily be accused being paranoid etc... since you don't share the opposite opinion of others. I get the impression that because you don't share the opinion of overpaying you decided to reprimand others because you personal don't want to hear it and if that is the case you indirectly are trying to control the board with opinions that suit your taste! That I think is wrong!

When you use your reference in ISG " safe sex " if I got it right certainly can be applied to your own views.

" It does no good to criticize member etc.... "

Line 1 thru 4 you quoted can easily be apply to your comments to Jackson?

In the end, from reviewing some of your post I get the impression that you can go cheap or expensive and I say kudos to you but allow those that can't and have a good reason express them just as you should be allow to express yours. And if you can't then like you I want to speak for the many who are also sick of others complaining and trying to control the board to their own liking by reprimanding others who disagree and wanting to create more and more thread? because they want to hear what they want to hear and have easy access to specific information to their question.

Personally I don't care what any of you do because there is just too much pussy in this country and if someone is too harsh or a S.A. the board has enough bodies already that will report a individual to Jackson but this topic doesn't warrant another useless thread for whatever reason! You have a decision to make in my opinion if this site doesn't suit your opinion but like you said where are you going to go " every major forum "? and for some reason you still come back for more since 2005!

That is just my 2 plus cent but in due respect to you Mr. Bonzo1, when it comes to creating more thread I have to agree to disagree!

By the way was you at Nana Liq disco on Fri/ Sat morning? did you see the girl in the black leather dress dancing on the small stage?

LBM

[QUOTE=LittleBigMan]In all Due respect Bonzo1!

I would have to agree with Daddy07, and I do respect what you have to say regarding overpaying and I personal don't really care if anyone overpays or not as long as they are having a good time. I don't think a few who overpay or underpay is going to control the market one way or the other. But I do believe that they have the right to express their opinions in this forum. Forum to me is define as a discussion and not something that is suppose to be all good and rosie and black and white! ISG isn't a sex site that is only a FAQ, questions are ask and they are answer sometimes it requires more but I don't think in this particular discussion at this time anyone is being targeted unfairly and if that came across in that matter the person have already apologise and explain himself.

In fact the topic like always was dying down until you wrote your comments to Jackson in this General thread doing exactly what you accuse and reprimand others as to their " belief, paranoid, and hypocritical. From writing your post you could easily be accused being paranoid etc... since you don't share the opposite opinion of others. I get the impression that because you don't share the opinion of overpaying you decided to reprimand others because you personal don't want to hear it and if that is the case you indirectly are trying to control the board with opinions that suit your taste! That I think is wrong!

When you use your reference in ISG " safe sex " if I got it right certainly can be applied to your own views.

" It does no good to criticize member etc.... "

Line 1 thru 4 you quoted can easily be apply to your comments to Jackson?

In the end, from reviewing some of your post I get the impression that you can go cheap or expensive and I say kudos to you but allow those that can't and have a good reason express them just as you should be allow to express yours. And if you can't then like you I want to speak for the many who are also sick of others complaining and trying to control the board to their own liking by reprimanding others who disagree and wanting to create more and more thread? because they want to hear what they want to hear and have easy access to specific information to their question.

Personally I don't care what any of you do because there is just too much pussy in this country and if someone is too harsh or a S.A. the board has enough bodies already that will report a individual to Jackson but this topic doesn't warrant another useless thread for whatever reason! You have a decision to make in my opinion if this site doesn't suit your opinion but like you said where are you going to go " every major forum "? and for some reason you still come back for more since 2005!

That is just my 2 plus cent but in due respect to you Mr. Bonzo1, when it comes to creating more thread I have to agree to disagree!

LBM[/QUOTE]

Hi LBM

You raise some good points for sure. I am yearning to end this discussion and move on to greener pastures, so I'll just reply to a few (no disrespect intended by not addressing everything.)

1. To reiterate, I'm addressing the futility of the debate, and more importantly the effect that the all-too-present condemnation of a members' behaviors has on the benefit of the forum to all (see Guido's initial post of this chain, where he is castigating another member, which is what started this chain -- this is far from an isolated example.)

2. I'm not criticizing a member but rather a (ubiquitous) behavior. I have no beef against Guido or anyone else in any other respect than this topic. In fact, I have never written anything to him, but rather commented in general. That said, I can see your point.

3. I'm not intending to be antagonistic in response but rather as clear and compelling as I can be. However, I can see how my responses can (easily) be taken that way, to which I'll both say that it's not my intention and also that unfortunately this entire topic almost always leads to a fight.

4. Note that I, and probably no one or exceedingly few people, have ever posted a criticism of someone who negotiated well or paid less than I do. Perhaps the only caveat to this is when someone has ripped off a girl. These discussions and debates ALWAYS start with someone (as Run Mann dubbed them, "the price police") complaining or criticizing about overpaying and/or spoiling the market. Occasionally I or another person tries to point out both the errors in reasoning and the futility, but always it is about "overpayers" -- there is zero litter from "the other side" about "underpayers." This responds to your assertion about me (and presumably the others that share my views) actually being hypocrites and doing the very thing we claim to be decrying (bullying the forum for our own views) - as is well-evidenced throughout the forums, this is absolutely not the case -- everyone welcomes information about prices without critique. It's their critiques of others (and their bogus theories about markets) that we are tired of having to endure. Your point is that I have a right to mention that, and I agree. My approach is, after my first post did no good (as predicted,) to send a letter to Jackson asking for his consideration, not to terrorize the forum from here until the end of time (as the price police do). Frankly, if Jackson denies my request I'll simply live with it and try to ignore the nonsense and insults, but I contend the forum would be a better place for all if the behaviors of the few price police were curtailed or properly quarantined. IMHO.

5. Who knows when this would "die down." It raises its head over and over again, and without a policy there's zero chance of it really dying down, ever.

6. I am far from the first person to make this observation or request.

In summary, I'm simply asking for something that already exists as part of ISG policy -- i.e. no flaming, antagonism, and disparaging other members. In accordance with (wise) ISG policy, this actually does benefit all members.

-B-

PS - I will refrain from posting any further remarks, including especially those that I realize are coming across as antagonistic. And regardless of differences in views and my hopes of a better forum, I have no other bone to pick with those who stand on other sides of this issue. All the best.

[QUOTE=Bonzo1]I knew I was forgetting something...but how I forgot this one I have no idea. I made a third trip to Bossy earlier this month (actually it was the first trip of this batch about which I'm reporting), after a night at Pent, and holy cow was it off the hook!! Met a girl who was passing through BKK on her way from some remote village to another, who claimed (later) to have not been laid for over a year and was very picky. Somehow we clicked and partied with her friend for a while, then back to my hotel, where she put on quite a show, highlighted by requesting a beer, then giving me BBBJ while alternating between drinking the beer and using it to provide a "cooling pleasure" to me, and then she proceeded to use the beer bottle as a dildo (on herself, to be clear). Finally ended up fucking her brains out and then wanted to COF, so she re-inserted the beer bottle while I finished.

Has anyone else had this happen before? This is gonna sound incredible but it's actually the second time a girl I've taken home in BKK has dildo'd herself with a beer bottle (first time was in March.) Is it a new thing going around? Here's to hoping!

No money ever mentioned. I asked her to leave sometime around 6am so I could catch some zzz's, and slipped 3000 in her purse. She saw the money and said, "I wasn't going to ask you for money, but thanks." Worth every baht.

That's it for tonight. Need to get some dinner. More updates on Escorts and Gogo experiences later in the week.
Happy trails.
-B-[/QUOTE]
seems a wild one and I am just wondering about her friend....
Coild expect a 3-some with a girl like that or maybe she wanted to make sure that her holes were filled and to share the filler with a friend! lol
A missed freebie by your own action, but I think you did well in giving her some cash
Maybe good investment for the future.

[QUOTE=Bonzo1]With all due respect, not at all.

1. I'm not talking about a few innocuous comments here and there, or even the helpful advice -- I'm talking about the disparaging, whining, authoritative posts that repeatedly occur not only on the BKK forum but on pretty much every forum. It's a broken record, in more ways that one.

2. Many other members have requested the very same thing, for years, across all forums.

3. See my analogy to the safe sex policies. What you wrote could apply just as easily to that subject, yet there is a policy for it -- for good reason.

4. I am differentiating between comments and useful advice about prices (e.g. your bus example, and your THANKED observation) versus the preachy condemnations and irrational beliefs about "spoiling the market," the latter which are clutter at best, and at worst antagonistic and serve to discourage people from posting their real experiences.

5. The only alternative I suppose would be to consider having the debates, futilely, ad naseum and ad inifinitum. Personally I think 8+ years is more than long enough already, and a simple policy addition (which actually really isn't even an addition since it's part of the ISG rules to not be antagonizing already) could spare us all the clutter and harassment.

I do agree that there's a bit of a fine line and perhaps would be a bit hard to really enforce, but anything to discourage it would be beneficial, I think.

All the best,

-B-[/QUOTE]

For whatever its worth, I wholeheartedly agree with you. The points you outlined are logically coherent and if implemented your suggestion would benefit the forum membership. However, I fear you may be up against it so to speak in terms of getting Admin to agree to your recommendation for a variety of reasons not even worth discussing. The price police have been on this board ineffectively excoriating members for years for violating the so call market rate. Some people are happiest when they are complaining a la Andy Rooney and this is an easy issue to complain about.

[QUOTE=Daddy07]Aww, come on, Bonzo … with all due respect and no disparagement intended, don’t you think you’re becoming a bit hysterical over this issue? .[/QUOTE]Having followed up a bit I tend to agree on Bonzo, in general.
If Bonzo looks hysterical, also the usual comments he points out are hysterical too
He clarifies very well in the later post
What I dont agree is to create a special forum on the forum ref prices
Otherwise we end up in tens of sub-categories, loosing the thread of the talks
A bit like the photo chit-chat
I agree a photo gallery has to have photos, but some (reasonable) comments should go in it, not somewhere else, otherwise it becomes not much intelligble

[QUOTE=Run Mann]For whatever its worth, I wholeheartedly agree with you. The points you outlined are logically coherent and if implemented your suggestion would benefit the forum membership. However, I fear you may be up against it so to speak in terms of getting Admin to agree to your recommendation for a variety of reasons not even worth discussing. The price police have been on this board ineffectively excoriating members for years for violating the so call market rate. Some people are happiest when they are complaining a la Andy Rooney and this is an easy issue to complain about.[/QUOTE]

Bonzo1,

As written above by Run Mann, your view are well taken and written I have no problem with that. And as you noted " 8 years " and it continues everyone has a pet pea and I will also agree there are more support for lower prices and maybe that is why Wal-mart is so popular, why Soi 6, is so popular, and now the bush in South Pattaya is getting lots of talk? believe it or not FS goes for 200 baht and a guy said he gave 300 and got ripped?

From what I read you have more option than the majority of us and surely that includes me. And if I was you and I believe many of the others who want to keep prices down had your ability we would turn to being a hypocrite and do the same. Maybe we are just jealous? Always a truth in eveyrthing.

I can only speak for myself... I see many of the old guys on this board are just bored and with old age we get gumpie from time to time and Viagra has given many of us a second chance but comes with lots of side affects? one which might be mood swings making us attack others without much provocation. I also believe that majority of Expats are on limited income and with the strength of the baht it's scary to us senile fools that our paradise is slowly being overprice by a few? So we attack like a pack of wolves but at the same time we love it cause it give us a jolt of energy!

Personally speaking I live in candy land but can go months just looking and not partake in such sinful activity! Currently in Monk training while I know a crazy rabbit is in town going crazy!

Enjoy mates! good discussion but LBM is out of here............

[QUOTE=Bonzo1]Hi LBM

4. ...... -- there is zero litter from "the other side" about "underpayers." ... All the best.[/QUOTE]
Indeed sometime I am tempted to comment about the "underpayers", lol, as sometime there is pride in paying a providerfar less than expected (and in ful honesty sometime they get the s**t back!) or like those being over criticism on havint to pay 500B for a (residential) room and not the old 350....
I mean...150B difference extra per day....! come on!
If I would be in such an economical bad situation of not being able to afford an extra 150 a day extra for a (residential) room, I would question my capacity to spend time in mongering or having holidays there or somewhere else.

Bonzo1

You are well entitled to your opinion as am I but you seem to be getting more than a little upset over a simple discussion. Like it or not pricing is a part of the International Sex Guide.

There are other opinions than yours.....

IMHO Negotiation is so highly ingrained into the Asian culture its amazing that any purchase would be made at the ticketed price.

Rather than continue the rant we can probably topic lay this to bed and not waste further bandwidth. Been plenty of input from both trains of thought on this subject.

Guido88

[quote=bonzo1]the only alternative i suppose would be to consider having the debates, futilely, ad naseum and ad inifinitum.[/quote]take this post with a grain of salt, while i agree with you on principle bonzo1, the reality of splintering is hardly a solution.

this is thailand, this is bangkok.

canki sutta:

"o how they cling and wrangle, some who claim
for preacher and monk the honored name!
for, quarreling, each to his view they cling.
such folk see only one side of a thing"

or possibly, consider the rashomon effect: if subjectivity of perception is everything, therefore without a base in reality, then subjectivity becomes everyone's token reality. if i tell you that it is raining, will your clothes then be wet? yes, even if it's not really raining.

now think of the hindu: "a number of blind men came to an elephant...."

what would this board be without discussion? would it end up being about the size of your penis, or maybe how far you can [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord134][CodeWord134][/url], or possibly how many times you can get anal from an ugly gimp nana parking lot streetwalker that you and your buddies managed to gang bang for $3? ok well then, how many times can you hear the same story told by different people?

so what you are saying here is that you are looking for all members to post in what will be, by definition, your idea of a sex bbs?

this is bangkok. it's hot, it's steamy, it's crazy. it isn't a fairy tail (no matter how it's painted for the tourists today.)

[i]"we are anthill men upon an anthill world."[/i]
ray bradbury

agreeing and disagreeing on what a person sees and feels here takes at least some of the subjectivity out of the equation. even while experiencing what could be a fantasy for one but a poor mundane excuse of a childish epithet of absolute abject boredom for others. is the only thing that matters your own definition of reality? real honest reality? no definitely not. impossible. ergo, discussion is everything, therefore i say, what would this bangkok board be without all of it?

while i understand what it is you are saying, be careful what you wish for bonzo. this is bangkok.

Hi Bonzo:

I intentionally waited some days before posting this reply as I wanted to avoid the flame effect. However, I am happy to see that the topic is still hot.

[QUOTE=Bonzo1]There are many of us that wish Jackson would just move all such posts into another thread; I suggest it be entitled, "Whining about Prices. "[/QUOTE]Well, judging from the attention that this thread has drawn, I think that Jackson won't move anything.

[QUOTE=Bonzo1]One may tip as one wishes. Better said people WILL tip as they wish regardless of what YOU wish or decry. And despite others' views about what is "overpaying" (one word)[/QUOTE]? Why, sorry? How can you conclude that nobody is influenced by posts such as Guido's? I am sure there are plenty of people who adjusted their paying approach based on the input of more expert mongers.

[QUOTE=Bonzo1]If you and people only exactly like you existed, the market would not. In fact, tips also create the illusion (and in many cases the reality) of prospect for the girls, which draws more to the market.[/QUOTE]The market would not exist without tips? You must be joking, right? Girls become prostitutes because of:

- poverty

- lack of education/competencies to get a sufficient salary

- unemployment

- need of cash during the studies

- no future for their children, especially once their are left by the father

- lack of a pension for their parents

- quest for the white knight who will solve all their problems

- etc

And not because of your big tips.

And even if some started because of the farang who paid 10K bht short time to their best friend, why you think that they would remain in the market in the long term and accepting a normal price?

[QUOTE=Bonzo1]And the market, especially one as large as this one, develops around the different price points. Always has and always will, provided outside factors such as LE don't interfere. Pricing is NOT an outside factor but an intrinsic one.

Assuming by "precedent" you mean affecting the market and not the consciousness of the "rest of us": no, it does not.[/QUOTE]Ok, so your point is that overpaying (one word, as you say) intended as accepting higher prices than those commonly practiced and tipping do not affect the market price because the latter already incorporates these practices, right?

Again, why? What evidence do you bring to support your conclusion? In order to corroborate such statement one should have identified the market segments and their weight. Then for each of them (or the most relevant ones) should have analysed the structure and flexibility of the demand and supply. Then the shock (overpayment): is it common, is it rare? Is its amount big or not compared to the market price? Etc etc.

You see where I am going? I don't know whether you are right or not but since (to my knowledge) no relevant econometric studies exist, what you sell as a fact is just an opinion. As such it is worth neither more nor less than Guido's (overpayment affects the market price) and in no case justifies the aggressive tone of your reply to his post. IMO of course.

Facts are that in the years prices in some market segments (or niches) have augmented a lot (e. G. Gogos, Thermae.), while in others have not (SW, massages.).

My impression is that the big price increase took place in the most visible/ saftest "sectors" where it is more likely to meet the occasional punter or the newby.

[QUOTE=Bonzo1]Also, negotiation, or lack thereof, is each person's own prerogative, and regardless of how much you cry about it that REALITY is NEVER going to change. If you can't accept this then don't play the game. And stop wasting forum space bitching about it.[/QUOTE]As I said before some persons' attitude and behaviour do change following the suggestions. However here I recognise that you have a point. People won't go against their nature in order to save few Euro or to preserve the mongering environment for the expatriates. This said, tolerance should be applied in both senses, also to those who like to remind the others what their idea of the mongering etiquette is. Especially, Bonzo, because we are blasted full time by people trying to convince us that 4 or 5000 bht is a fair price for a LT with a gogo dancer or that it is just normal to pay a tip to one or two or three girls who decided to sit with us (maybe uninvited and after they got their overpriced drinks.), or to the mamasan (a pimp) who makes the girls dance in the proper order or to the waiter who laughs to your jokes without understanding them, etc etc

And finally since this topic is a recurrent one (I quote you) "If you can't accept this then don't play the game (ignore the posts). And stop wasting forum space bitching about it. "

[QUOTE=Bonzo1]Meanwhile, I've said this before. If overpaying ruined the market, as you say, then it would actually be incentive for people with more money to intentionally overpay and thus get rid of the competition (I. E. You) and keep the better girls for themselves.[/QUOTE]I read your sentence and I see the Thermae.

[QUOTE=Bonzo1]the girls really appreciate guys who aren't cheap and give fantastic service (at time) in response. And it's easier to attract them.

So my "tip" to the board in general is that if you are uncomfortable with negotiating, instead, cast off your worries about a few meaningless dollars, negotiate a little if you like, and then tip well (waitresses, mamas, girls, everyone). And/or offer extra money for extra services (photos, movies, rimming, CIM, COF, anal, whatever).[/QUOTE]I fully agree with you on the tips against extra services. If you go to Tulip, have 4 shots, great blowjobs, rimming, catbath, dfk, then you bang her up the arse and pay only 1500 bht in my opinion you are an arsehole (one word, right?).

But I would be a bit more cautious about the tips to people who basically do nothing for you. According to my experience thai people (including the middle/high classes) are extremely attentive consumers. They pay a lot of attention to the value for their money (even for negligible amounts), get mad when they understand they have overspent or missed an opportunity and they do-not-tip. All in all, I would say that they do not have a high opinion of those who throw away their money. That's why I am one of those who believe that high requests often come with poor performance.