Thai Women - Opinions & Advice

I stand corrected.

I did of course know of the impact of the Vietnam War on the sex industry in Thailand. I guess, I just never thought much about it, or of ever coming here because of it. It certainly was never discussed by anyone I knew in Canada. Cuba definitely was, however. Our orientation in Toronto was North-South, not East-West. So, Cuba and the DR were places to go, if one wanted to partake. Nobody, ever thought about Asia.

In the mid-90s, when I was 43, I had a 22 y.o. half-French-Canadian, half Mohawk Indian GF and therefore, it never occurred to me to go anywhere looking for young stuff, because I had it at home. Some things never change. Now, I have it here.

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]While we seldom agree, and I do think that he has it in for me sometimes, (but all's fair in love and war) I respect someone like Run Mann, as an intelligent and worthy opponent. [/QUOTE]

I reciprocate in kind in my view of you OTH. I have nothing against you personally or anyone else on this board for that matter. There is also less disparity in our taste of women than you may know I just don’t highlight the issue of their skin color and I don’t gratuitously mention their facial features the way you do. One reason you get so much flack from these different posters is not so much for your message, because your message generally is on point but your editorializing and the separating of the messenger (you) versus the message (Thai culture/bigotry) is too often non-existent.

If you made the clear distinction that you are (only) reporting it instead of promoting, endorsing or even embellishing the message you would not get kind of responses you do. However, I think you purposely present the message the way you do. Why? Only you know the real reason you do it that way. Then again, if you start playing the role of the “straight man” or “just the facts” (man) there would be little reason to engage you which would make for a pretty boring ISG train ride.

[QUOTE=Run Mann]I reciprocate in kind in my view of you OTH. I have nothing against you personally or anyone else on this board for that matter. There is also less disparity in our taste of women than you may know I just don’t highlight the issue of their skin color and I don’t gratuitously mention their facial features the way you do. One reason you get so much flack from these different posters is not so much for your message, because your message generally is on point but your editorializing and the separating of the messenger (you) versus the message (Thai culture/bigotry) is too often non-existent.

If you made the clear distinction that you are (only) reporting it instead of promoting, endorsing or even embellishing the message you would not get kind of responses you do. However, I think you purposely present the message the way you do. Why? Only you know the real reason you do it that way. Then again, if you start playing the role of the “straight man” or “just the facts” (man) there would be little reason to engage you which would make for a pretty boring ISG train ride.[/QUOTE]

I'm ever the provocateur. ;)

Seriously, I will say this much. Few if any on here, even those proporting to be long-term expats and therefore self-styled experts ever really make an in-depth attempt to get into the Thai psyche in order to understand why Thais think and act they way they do. The vast majority on here are visitors and therefore, unfortunately have little if any opportunity to ever understand the culture, which is further exacerbated by the fact that they are engaged with a very narrow and culturally corrupt segment of the population (i.e. P4P girls). When I say, culturally corrupt, I just mean that by entering the P4P scene, the girls go through such a transformation that the "authenticity" of their cultural connection is almost completely corrupted to the point of being destroyed. This is why even lowly maids look down their noses at bargirls, even if they come from the same humble origins.

The other problem, to which I have often referred in the past is that many in the monger set put these girls on a pedestal, elevating them to a status that is antithetical to the reality of their place in Thai society. While these type of Farang may not give a damn what the Thais think, the problem is that they place the girl in an artificial and ultimately uncomfortable situation in which she is not meant to exist within the context of the culture, however flawed we may see this from our Western, egalitarian perspective.

Thai society is very much a stagnant strata of everyone having and knowing their place in the scheme of things, and not rocking the boat by having what is considered anti-social aspirations to go beyond where life puts them. The current political conflicts are not a challenge to this, as many think. The masses of redshirts have no aspirations to a higher status within Thai society. They would never be so presumptuous. The issues are more humble than that and have merely to do with improving the masses lot in life on a purely financial level.

The Thais are bound strongly by what is called SAKDINA (realm or field of power) which centres on the main social concept of "Obligation" to which they all, blindly adhere. The root of this is something quite distasteful to those of us from the West: unquestioning deference to the point of fawning obsequiousness to one's "betters".

As an aside, this is largely why I recently lost my job. Despite understanding completely this central aspect of Thai culture, I steadfastly refuse to adhere to it on principle, often to my own detriment. I had the nerve to challenge a dean, who was acting illegally, immorally and unethically. I was actually quite polite about it. But, the fact that I actually questioned someone, who had never been questioned before in his life by a "subordinate" (he'd never worked with Farang before) was enough to get me canned. This ingrained social ass-kissing is more than anything else holding the Thais back from ever progressing as a society.

However, this way of thinking is so firmly embedded in the Thai mind that trying to fight against it, as many unknowing Farang try to do - (even by such a seemingly innocent act as taking a girl to a place like Paragon to eat and being indignant when the girl is treated rudely, as she actually expects to be in such a situation) - is counterproductive and accomplishes nothing but perpetuating the image of the "ugly, insensitive Farang".

You're right that I perhaps don't clearly and objectively separate myself enough by my writing so pointedly (perhaps ad nauseum) about the Thai prejudice against skin colour, facial features, physical appearance, dress, and manner of speaking of people from the lower classes (seen as mainly from Isaan). But, that is partially me perhaps unduly prodding (for my own perverse pleasure and to stimulate discussion) those on here who are blind to the fact that the young lovelies with whom they traipse all over town, are (unjustly, but there it is) unwelcome in most places. The Thais are usually too polite to express this overtly. But, trust me, they feel it so strongly, that occasionally is leaks out in very unpleasant ways.

This is why I think that Pattaya is the best place for Farang who want to "let it all hang out" figuratively and literally. For the most part, the place is so far gone and cut-off from the norms of Thai society, that the "rules of engagement" are largely upside down. Walking around in the open, arm-in-arm with a hooker is greeted with a yawn of indifference by locals because it's the source of their bread and butter...or rice and chicken, I guess. Everyone from the highest HiSo business owner to the lowliest SW on beach road is so corrupted and at the same level, that the place is socially at least a relative bastion of equality and free-market aspirations, regardless of who you are. Money talks at such a deafening level in the crass commercial cesspit of Pattaya, that Thai culture is merely trotted out as window-dressing. As a result, what I've noticed there and why I have a sort of love-hate relationship with the place is that many of the girls have a level of arrogance, self-importance and confidence completely at odds with their true place in the scheme of things. I suppose on one level, this illusion is a good thing, as long as the girls don't leave town.

Pattaya is like Brigadoon, in that it's a complete anomally, that preserves its unique introspective identity and way of doing things in the face of external cultural and social pressures both reactionary and progressive. It may not, like Brigadoon rise out of the mists every hundred years. But, like Brigadoon its a place where both Farang and Thai can largely forget social convention, completely suspend reality and act with impunity.

Mr. OTH,

For years I have read your post, personally in my heart I refer to you as the Professor. I am one that just haven't had the time to learn or read many of the things you are referring to but in personal ways I have been learning them day by day by just living here in Pattaya.

When you refer to those that just come here on holidays I was one of those but I can tell you personally like yourself I hope and never wish for anyone to have to learn it first hand. So for those that can't understand what OTH, is talking about consider yourself lucky! Keep on Fucking and move on!

Now don't get me wrong! I don't live inside Pattaya itself near Walking St.. etc... you would never pick me out as a Farang even the locals can't. I never thought I would ever be living here but I have no regrets when it comes to my Thai wife and son. In the last few years I have gone through somethings that I would never wish it on anyone and from that experience it has really sour my way of thinking. Things as you say are just so backwards! and I can only speak for Pattaya. There are nights that I can't sleep and I have nightmares and vision of killing so many people that have wrong me here. These are visions that is bringing back some of my past which I have so long try to put behind me. I truly believe with my temper and personality if it wasn't for the love of my wife and son there would be bodies everywhere including many from my brothers wife family.

Hang in there OTH, you're not alone...

LBM

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]...This is why I think that Pattaya is the best place for Farang who want to "let it all hang out" figuratively and literally. For the most part, the place is so far gone and cut-off from the norms of Thai society, that the "rules of engagement" are largely upside down. Walking around in the open, arm-in-arm with a hooker is greeted with a yawn of indifference by locals because it's the source of their bread and butter...or rice and chicken, I guess. Everyone from the highest HiSo business owner to the lowliest SW on beach road is so corrupted and at the same level, that the place is socially at least a relative bastion of equality and free-market aspirations, regardless of who you are...[/QUOTE]
So ... which form of social corruption is better from the point of view of a civilized fair minded human being, such as yourself and the rest of us hapless Farang in the LOS -- the one in which the status of an individual is determined by the irrational whims of the hi-born snobs and bigots, or the one allowing "at least a relative bastion of equality and free-market aspirations, regardless of who you are"?

The answer is a no-brainer IMHO. Pattaya, then is a shining egalitarian city on a hill, while the rest of Thailand is the social cesspit.

[QUOTE=Tansak KTV]Totally disagree with that statement. I'm not that old and live in a sheltered area in the middle of no where and even my society knew of Thai and other Asian countries where prostitution was liberal to say it kindly. We do not even have have good internet only dial up and very limited at that. So internet did nothing for that.

And if you were military then everyone knew of SE Asia as a good port of call.[/QUOTE]Just like to ad. That was ther german tour operator in the 80 85 who started with mass charter flight to Thailand. Pattaya took off thanks the german business first. Only few hotels in that time royal cliff siam hotel (today named amari hotel)then follows the uk italian french swiss later only the scandinavian coutries. Then the japaneese. Korean. Later later only the Russian. Yes all off this has nothing to do with the internet. Was more the word mouth to mouth promotion.

[QUOTE=Daddy07]So ... which form of social corruption is better from the point of view of a civilized fair minded human being, such as yourself and the rest of us hapless Farang in the LOS -- the one in which the status of an individual is determined by the irrational whims of the hi-born snobs and bigots, or the one allowing "at least a relative bastion of equality and free-market aspirations, regardless of who you are"?

The answer is a no-brainer IMHO. Pattaya, then is a shining egalitarian city on a hill, while the rest of Thailand is the social cesspit.[/QUOTE]

Well, I don't know if I'd go that far. For the sake of relative brevity, I simplified, or perhaps over-simplified the concept. It's not merely the knobs lording it over the peasants. The masses are willing participants in this exercise, if only because for centuries it has been so relentlessly pounded into their brains, that they now enthusiastically contribute to its perpetuation. The whole concept of Puu yai - puu noi (literally, big man, little man) is not just the snobs and bigots at the upper echelon looking down on those below them. Those below them look down on those below THEM and so forth and so on, down the line. An example of this that I've noticed quite often in Bangkok are the ex-BGs married to expats, who often become quite insufferable, condescending c**ts when dealing with those they now perceive as below their newly acquired status. The girl next door to us, dresses to the nines (still a sow's ear, though) and is rude to the point of abuse to the maids in the building and the motor-cycle taxi guys outside the main door. It's proof positive that Thais, no matter where they are in the pecking order will, if opportunity presents itself find someone to look down on.

Anyway, I do think that a place like Pattaya, at least allows for a more level playing field for Thais from all walks of life. But, it's also a pretty fucked-up place full of fucked-up people in an even more incredibly fucked-up country that is as LBM describes it, "backward". "Backward" actually is IMO an understatement.

As a Torontonian I always knew about Thailand being a fun place for mongering, but flight time & costs to travel to Thailand seem too much for a man of my financial standing; especially, when Cuba WAS the western hemisphere 3hr flight away mongering destination between 1994-2004 as the majority of the women in the DR just didn't float my boat (too dark for my liking).

Cuba the past few years has done a complete 180; especially, if your language skills are not that good as a result I have made 5 trips to Thailand in the past 2. 5 years and I will coming back until I get it right.

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]I'm ever the provocateur. ;)

This is why I think that Pattaya is the best place for Farang who want to "let it all hang out" figuratively and literally. For the most part, the place is so far gone and cut-off from the norms of Thai society, that the "rules of engagement" are largely upside down. Walking around in the open, arm-in-arm with a hooker is greeted with a yawn of indifference by locals because it's the source of their bread and butter...or rice and chicken, I guess. Everyone from the highest HiSo business owner to the lowliest SW on beach road is so corrupted and at the same level, that the place is socially at least a relative bastion of equality and free-market aspirations, regardless of who you are. Money talks at such a deafening level in the crass commercial cesspit of Pattaya, that Thai culture is merely trotted out as window-dressing. As a result, what I've noticed there and why I have a sort of love-hate relationship with the place is that many of the girls have a level of arrogance, self-importance and confidence completely at odds with their true place in the scheme of things. I suppose on one level, this illusion is a good thing, as long as the girls don't leave town.

[/QUOTE]

I will say this in defense of Pattaya (God help me). Pattaya city is often times not given a fair shake in terms of what it has to offer. Many people believe Pattaya is nothing more than Walking Street, Beach Road, 1st 2d and 3rd Road, Jomtien, Naklua and the 24 hour nightlife. In truth it is much more than that. My taxi driver has a home in Pattaya (with just the most scenic and tranquil view). Travelling to his home we rarely see any visitors because we are not in the tourist areas. There are also a lot of support groups in Pattaya ran by and supported by expats like Pattaya Expats Clubs, Alcoholics Anonymous, Pattaya Old age Home, Pattaya Orphanage Trust, Fr. Ray Foundation and Plutaluang Homeless Animal Shelter; they along with other groups provide a host of valuable community service and family events and support network to expats and residents. Also if you like golf, Pattaya is this place to be with all the championship golf courses there. Pattaya does offer more for expats and they are better off living there but not all for the negative reasons you cited. There are some good people living there doing some good things.

Having said all that, I will say that the place does have its issues but so does BKK which has a lot of the same negatives you listed as being in Pattaya. In some respects lower Sukhumvit and Patpong are worst than Pattaya. The corruption and cesspit reference is also not exclusive to Pattaya and I know you know that, overall Bangkok is not exactly a model city for clean family oriented type living. While it’s true that BGs can become culturally corrupt by entering the P4P scene, the Thai culture itself is culturally corrupt. Maybe BGs become more culturally corrupt or some would say they see the light but strict adherence to the culture is problematic in that it is hypocritical and corrupt.

Sorry guys - but you're over-analyzing. Wherever you live, life is as good as you make it.

I'll tell you some interesting non-mongering Pattaya stories when I get the time and inclination (and if you're interested). Here's a quick one: My regular Pattaya cabbie proudly introduced me to his 18 year old son a couple of days ago, and we all had a long cab-ride to Bangkok, as he was bringing his son to Bangkok on the same trip to his university courses. Mr. Cabbie is working his butt off for very long hours in a stressful and poorly-paid job to pay his son's university fees. He's a very proud father, from Pattaya.

[QUOTE=Run Mann]
Having said all that, I will say that the place does have its issues but so does BKK which has a lot of the same negatives you listed as being in Pattaya. In some respects lower Sukhumvit and Patpong are worst than Pattaya. The corruption and cesspit reference is also not exclusive to Pattaya and I know you know that, overall Bangkok is not exactly a model city for clean family oriented type living.[/QUOTE]

I totally agree. Bangkok is at times an absolutely horrible place. Any issue I have with Pattaya is as I've so often said, more to do with the type of Farang low-life you find there, than anything to do with the Thais. You're also correct that if you get away from the main areas, there's a lot to offer, especially just outside Pattaya in places like Bang Chang and further afield, Bang Saen.

[QUOTE=Run Mann]While it’s true that BGs can become culturally corrupt by entering the P4P scene, the Thai culture itself is culturally corrupt. Maybe BGs become more culturally corrupt or some would say they see the light but strict adherence to the culture is problematic in that it is hypocritical and corrupt.[/QUOTE]

You're absolutely correct here as well, especially concerning Thai culture being culturally corrupt. I've often said that Thais lack moral fiber. One of the biggest challenges I face in teaching Thais is ethics, particularly frustrating when I have to teach a course on 'Ethics'. They simply operate on a completely different wave-length than we do with regard to what they see as right and wrong, which is btw, per my previous comments directly tied into their notion of status.

Perhaps I spend too much time over-intellectualizing all of this. But, I write about it here because there are more than a few questions and remarks made by ISGers about why Thais think and act the way they do, to justify my attempts, still often not entirely on the mark, to explain the Thai mindset.

[QUOTE=Member #3200]As a Torontonian I always knew about Thailand being a fun place for mongering, but flight time & costs to travel to Thailand seem too much for a man of my financial standing; especially, when Cuba WAS the western hemisphere 3hr flight away mongering destination between 1994-2004 as the majority of the women in the DR just didn't float my boat (too dark for my liking).

Cuba the past few years has done a complete 180; especially, if your language skills are not that good as a result I have made 5 trips to Thailand in the past 2. 5 years and I will coming back until I get it right.[/QUOTE]

I guess I led a sheltered life in Toronto, back then. :)

I was in Toronto shagging Italian princesses from Little Italy, Brazilian chicks from Bloor West and Chinese chicks from Spadina, and then my half-half (Metis) 22 y.o. GF, so didn't think about hookers of any sort, really. As you and I both know, Toronto is a such a culturally diverse city, that one doesn't need to get stuck with one of those "white whales", that so many guys on ISG seem to be escaping from.

I think it was when I saw a production of "Miss Saigon", that I really became aware of SE Asia as a sex destination. Before that, I just never thought about Asia.

I want to clarify myself, but 1st I want to say I'm learning a lot from what is being said positive and negative!

One thing Thai's say to my wife and I know she understand this part about me is that although I 'm here in Pattaya. I don't consider myself a low life or loser as some have commented about Farangs being in Pattaya. Although I don't look like a Farang I'm am what I am period! Thai's say that I must been through a lot in my life because I really don't care what people have to say about me. I take a little here and there and try to learn something from it!

I don't want to give anyone the impression that I hate Pattaya now because I wouldn't have made this my home. Sure there are most likely places I can enjoy but Pattaya like my home has the ocean, lots of resources for Farangs, easy to get around, and you can nearly get everything that I have at home. I don't believe any one country, region of that country, or city has a consolidation of bad people but with my luck it seems I'm a magnet for bad things to come maybe because I have been around bad people nearly my whole life.

I wasn't born yesterday but I still believe in people and I refuse to believe that all people I am in contact with in Pattaya are bad but I am much more cautious and reserve now! Just this weekend before my son started school again today, I took the family and rented a small house on the beach at Ban Saray and just having no one around watching him play was the reason I came to Thailand and Pattaya. Today back to the real world!

LBM

I have a question for OTH (or Other Veterans),

I was at Emporium this weekend and noticed a lot of white/fair skinned girls, nicely dressed, but most of them were with a brown Thai guy.
Now why is that women would see men's color in a different light?

I mean, some of these guys were really dark compared to the girls. I guess the White/fair skin "standard" doesn't go both ways?

[QUOTE=LittleBigMan]I want to clarify myself, but 1st I want to say I'm learning a lot from what is being said positive and negative!

One thing Thai's say to my wife and I know she understand this part about me is that although I 'm here in Pattaya. I don't consider myself a low life or loser as some have commented about Farangs being in Pattaya. Although I don't look like a Farang I'm am what I am period! Thai's say that I must been through a lot in my life because I really don't care what people have to say about me. I take a little here and there and try to learn something from it!

I don't want to give anyone the impression that I hate Pattaya now because I wouldn't have made this my home. Sure there are most likely places I can enjoy but Pattaya like my home has the ocean, lots of resources for Farangs, easy to get around, and you can nearly get everything that I have at home. I don't believe any one country, region of that country, or city has a consolidation of bad people but with my luck it seems I'm a magnet for bad things to come maybe because I have been around bad people nearly my whole life.

I wasn't born yesterday but I still believe in people and I refuse to believe that all people I am in contact with in Pattaya are bad but I am much more cautious and reserve now! Just this weekend before my son started school again today, I took the family and rented a small house on the beach at Ban Saray and just having no one around watching him play was the reason I came to Thailand and Pattaya. Today back to the real world!

LBM[/QUOTE]

Of course you're not a low-life. I wasn't implying that ALL Farang in Pattaya are low-lifes. But, there are a disproportionate number of them there: from UK yobs, to Eastern European mafia-types, to Western white-trash. Go sit in the food court at Carrefour and check out the weirdos having lunch. Sit by the pool, at the one of the myriad of condos, especially in the Farang Ghetto around that area and listen and watch. There are a lot of strange characters populating the place. It's the only place where many Farang have more tattoos than the BGs. There is a lot of nefarious activity going on, because Pattaya is perceived, quite rightly, I think as a bit of a wild-west town where anything goes. A lot of the Thais are sketchy, too. It's what gives colour to the place. But, it's also what makes it somewhat distasteful.

Sure there are a lot of nice guys, who've just found a good place to live.

It's just that there is at least an equal number, if not far more than are sketchy, at best, if not far worse than that. I've met more than a few that are there because they had a "spot of trouble" back home...meaning what? They didn't pay their Visa bill? skipped alimony payments? did a runner on a drug charge? murder? mayhem? what? I've met two Brits, separately, who were running from a GBH (Grievous Bodily Harm) charge. Pattaya has had more than it's fair share of Garry Glitter wanna-be-s. Then there are the murderers, who make the news when they are finally discovered hiding out there and extradited back home.

At least, nobody can ever say that Pattaya is boring.