East China - Shanghai

[QUOTE=TheTrooper21;2082656]First, thanks a lot for this report. This was very insightful.


Even if you agreed on a meeting, they would need proof of illegal activity. Security camera evidence of a woman coming in and out of your room shouldn't be cause but together with a text message confirming a meeting might be enough depending on the contents of the text message. Can't you say you met up and never actually did anything or got a massage? Maybe that's just not convincing enough.[/QUOTE]

Don't apply USA laws to China. Innocent until proven guilty doesn't necessarily work in China. Obviously Judy kept a log or something saying SAMCAN was at the ritz. You have to use your real name because they call the hotel and call the desk and ask to be transferred to SAMCAN's room to ensure you are there. Too many guys have a girl come and don't use their name and are not there after the girl gets there.

If the police have a real name and a date, they can check cameras. I am sure a girl going to your room that was on the SNG Log to the hotel you went to would be enough to close the deal in China.

[QUOTE=TheTrooper21;2082656]First, thanks a lot for this report. This was very insightful.

However, I still want to break this down to calm some nerves and clarify as some people might be freaking out.

Given what I read, if you a) Avoid talking to Judy (as that's how some people got lured in by the police) or any other manager, you are partly safe. We all need to do that anyway going forward.

Now, for retroactive activity, you also mentioned that, "If you contacted Judy in the last month I suggest staying away from shanghai, at least 2 foreigners were brought in and detained TWO weeks after the fact. They will go to your hotel to pick you up and look up hotel security cameras for proof of girls entering and leaving your room" - When you say contact, I think you mean you both contacted and agreed on a meeting. If it's just contact to inquire information, I don't see why it would justify getting detained. Also, how would they find the hotel? Perhaps this assumes that they will go to the same place that you arranged the meeting at? I guess they would need to check the details from Judy's phone and go to your exact hotel that you're staying in today? What if you're not in the same hotel / room anymore? Maybe they can look up information somehow via your phone number?

Even if you agreed on a meeting, they would need proof of illegal activity. Security camera evidence of a woman coming in and out of your room shouldn't be cause but together with a text message confirming a meeting might be enough depending on the contents of the text message. Can't you say you met up and never actually did anything or got a massage? Maybe that's just not convincing enough.[/QUOTE]For western standards yes, they would need more proof. But apparently not for Shanghai police. They questioned both parties and if inconsistencies arises then you will get more days in detention. As long as they get the statement they want from you or the girl then both will get detained. They also claimed at the beginning if you are truthful you will get a slap on the wrist, 10 days detention was the slap on the wrist. One person was told, if he rejected the girl and she left within 10-15 minutes then the LE wouldn't of bothered with him but since she stayed for much longer they took him in based on that alone.

[QUOTE=SamCan;2082879]Don't apply USA laws to China. Innocent until proven guilty doesn't necessarily work in China. Obviously Judy kept a log or something saying SAMCAN was at the ritz. You have to use your real name because they call the hotel and call the desk and ask to be transferred to SAMCAN's room to ensure you are there. Too many guys have a girl come and don't use their name and are not there after the girl gets there.

If the police have a real name and a date, they can check cameras. I am sure a girl going to your room that was on the SNG Log to the hotel you went to would be enough to close the deal in China.[/QUOTE]Definitely agree that the international rules of evidence don't apply here. But were they even relevant at all? Question did LE get confessions or admissions of guilt before releasing the people detained? I would be surprised if they didn't. If they got confessions or admissions, there was never a real need to establish a solid trail of evidence. This is the usual LE playbook all around the world. The confessions could then be used against the business operators. The people arrested may have been just supporting actors in a drama involving some bigger fish. The fact that they were only given administrative detention after all that effort also suggests that they were just bit players. Just guessing, of course.

I'm all about mongering while minimizing risk in every way possible.

If using Judy, here's what I do:

- use fake name.

- use untraceable phone no wechat account.

- do not reveal exact address. (I meet the girl on the street on arrival.).

These measures are not foolproof, but they minimize risk. Cops would have to question girl, and she'd have to remember I live in apartment 2301 (or is it 2203?).

Some guys brag to girl about where they work, even give her a business card. Not me. No unnecessary risk.

Glad to hear that the independents that were on SNG are still free.

Though even if someone never used Judy's hotline and went to the independents I would still be wary of considering oneself safe. What if the LE is looking to get more of SNG's girls to gather even more evidence?

If Judy's wechat and contacts are in the hands of LE why would they not also go after the freelancers advertising on SNG? I would feel pretty certain the freelancers were in contact with Judy and / or Steve to arrange fees so they could advertise on SNG, or even worse give them a commission.

It would just be more evidence and confessions they can use to build a case against Judy and Steven.

I would stay away from Shanghai if I had any contact with anyone associated with SNG.

This crackdown has proven to be dangerous and especially unpredictable. Seems like some posters, and even Steven on SNG, were certain contacting freelancers would be safe.

Where are they now?

This is China, The LE don't need real evidence to detain you. They just need to have any reason to believe you had something to do with it.

All I'm saying is, prepare for the worst. Over last few years all cities in China have gone through this "sex trade purge" and as far as I can tell the trade never returned in these places.

Be safe and if you have to stay in Shanghai then go for an airbnb or something like that. At least you might not have to register with the local police that way.

[QUOTE=Boag11;2082113]Alright boys, I was one of the fellows that fell into the mess at the end of August, using sng. Everyone that was caught that night had contacted the girls via Judy within at least the last TWO weeks. Steve and Judy were both caught. From what I know they got to Judy first and used her wechat to find some of us. Also a couple of the girls were being trailed by LE for at least two weeks. The order for these busts came from up high, beyond the police chief of shanghai. Bribes did not work, one person claimed to of tried a 100 k rmb bribe.

Once caught we were detained for 24 hours then issued a 10-15 day "Administrative Detention" only 1 call allowed prior being sent to detention location where embassies were contacted in around 3-5 days, no other outside contact beyond that. While there more shanghai locals came in, we were the only foreigners. During the 8th or 9th day, rumors of more raids came in from spas, MP, and saunas, a total of 80-100 detained.

The Administrative detention is considered a slap on the wrist and as far as I know will not impact employment directly unless your employer has connections and decide to dig deep but you will have to explain going missing for 10-15 days..[/QUOTE]Just curious, could you go over in more detail how they apprehended you? What time of the day was it? How much longer after the deed was it?

I am really surprised how naive some people are.

Just to emphasise: The PRC is a one party system police state. Just because Shanghai looks modern and like a global city, it isn't. People her do not enjoy real freedom and privacy, instead, they are under permanent surveillance. If one thing works in the PRC than it is LE. Unfortunately, LE is not so much taking care of real problems but rather focus on some horny guys who need to get a relieve. Nevertheless, as long as you don't have the permission to be jerked off from the very top level, you better do it by yourself.

[QUOTE=Boag11;2082885]For western standards yes, they would need more proof. But apparently not for Shanghai police. They questioned both parties and if inconsistencies arises then you will get more days in detention. As long as they get the statement they want from you or the girl then both will get detained. They also claimed at the beginning if you are truthful you will get a slap on the wrist, 10 days detention was the slap on the wrist. One person was told, if he rejected the girl and she left within 10-15 minutes then the LE wouldn't of bothered with him but since she stayed for much longer they took him in based on that alone.[/QUOTE]LE can keep you up to 15 days as Administrative Detention to question you.

But past that they'll need evidence to charge you in order to keep you for a longer time.

Unless they found evidence (used condom with your DNA / the receiving party), or got you or the other party to admit, they can't charge you.

Very often they'll scam you saying that the other party already admited this, that if you cooperate they'll be more leniant. Some Japanese guy was asked when coming out of a MP what he had done and told that if he said the truth they'd be lenient. He said I just got a massage and HJ there... booom the shop was closed, all girls taken away for 15 days, the jap guy still got 10 days...

Truth is by admitting things you are only incriminating yourself.

It is also true that for mass events like these, they'll rarelly charge you and will use mostly the administrative detention as a standard punishment if its your first offense. And yeah, being 10 to 15 days in jail is already a big punishment and a complicated thing to explain to your employer or wife. Especially if they've been told why you were in jail by the police.

[QUOTE=Yeahm8;2083009]Just curious, could you go over in more detail how they apprehended you? What time of the day was it? How much longer after the deed was it?[/QUOTE]1 day after the deed, came at 2 am. Used security camera to see the girl coming and leaving and Judy's wechat.

Another question (sorry if it is stupid):

I am not interested in Sauna or Barber. I would go to a Bar, mainly to take a drink or two and watch the scene and people. If I will be in a bar like MH or Judy, is this already a crime?! Will these bars as well be observed and focused at the moment?

And: if I talk to a girl there and we will go to my hotel, what will the hotel do? Block me and her? Call police? And will they break my door and catch me or what may happen?

I am serious, I am a greenhorn, I had been once in shanghai, took a girl from MH to hotel and spent wonderful time, Dec 16. I would like to repeat, but now: I am frightened to repeat. She was Viet. I will be back in SH in Nov.

What do you think pros?

Another question (sorry if it is stupid):

I am not interested in Sauna or Barber. I would go to a Bar, mainly to take a drink or two and watch the scene and people. If I will be in a bar like MH or Judy, is this already a crime? Will these bars as well be observed and focused at the moment?

And: if I talk to a girl there and we will go to my hotel, what will the hotel do? Block me and her? Call police? And will they break my door and catch me or what may happen?

I am serious, I am a greenhorn, I had been once in shanghai, took a girl from MH to hotel and spent wonderful time, Dec 16. I would like to repeat, but now: I am frightened to repeat. She was Viet. I will be back in SH in Nov.

What do you think pros? Ich.

[QUOTE=Lando1906;2083199]Another question (sorry if it is stupid):

I am not interested in Sauna or Barber. I would go to a Bar, mainly to take a drink or two and watch the scene and people. If I will be in a bar like MH or Judy, is this already a crime? Will these bars as well be observed and focused at the moment?

And: if I talk to a girl there and we will go to my hotel, what will the hotel do? Block me and her? Call police? And will they break my door and catch me or what may happen?

I am serious, I am a greenhorn, I had been once in shanghai, took a girl from MH to hotel and spent wonderful time, Dec 16. I would like to repeat, but now: I am frightened to repeat. She was Viet. I will be back in SH in Nov.

What do you think pros? Ich.[/QUOTE]There is no such thing as a guarantee that you are safe, however, it's not forbidden date girls.

As I said; the PRC is kind of a police state. If they want to take you in, then you are fucked. Don't be naive, they know exactly how to inquire. Personally, I always stick to the law of the country I stay and never made experiences by doing so. But this Steven will face big trouble, lucky him that the capital penalty for arranging prostitution is no longer applied. But several years in prison up to a life sentence seems realistic if found guilty. Good luck.

[QUOTE=Lemurian;2083085]I am really surprised how naive some people are.[/QUOTE]We are all naive in some areas.

[QUOTE]Just to emphasise: The PRC is a one party system police state.[/QUOTE]It is also a 3 faction party, whose factions try to eliminate members of the other factions. There have been instances of planes exploding, PLA naval ships being fired at by other PLA vessels attempting to kill a senior leader, and poisonings. Under Pooh Bear's regime (and he has survived a number of assassination plots), he has used corruption charges to eliminate government officials who support rival factions (over a million have been disciplined in some way).

[QUOTE]Just because Shanghai looks modern and like a global city, it isn't. People her do not enjoy real freedom and privacy, instead, they are under permanent surveillance.[/QUOTE]Just like many countries, but over the past few years, the measures in China have become more draconian and been aided by greedy American corporations willing to do anything that might help them get a bigger slice of the gigantic Chinese pie. For example, American software companies handing over all their source code to the CCP. There are many, many more examples.

[QUOTE] If one thing works in the PRC than it is LE. Unfortunately, LE is not so much taking care of real problems but rather focus on some horny guys who need to get a relieve.[/QUOTE]I have no real criticism of the LE. Their 'focus' is partly determined at the provincial level whose Party Secretary may very well have his own agenda. And ever hear of the "3 Vices Campaign", sometimes referred to as the Great Yanda? Prostitution is only one of those 3 'vices' that is being targeted to cut the cash flow and facilitate corruption charges against Pooh Bear's opponents (mainly the Jiang Zemin Shanghai Faction rather than the China Youth League faction).

The case of SNG is unusual. I witnessed the takedown of the mongering scene in Shenzhen and Dongguan, and read of the demise of other cities in the south. During these periods, I have never heard of police examining an agent's records and days later going to hotels or apartments to detain foreigners for the crime' of having invited a visitor. They probably only needed the hotels' video recordings to verify the room number.

One last thought. Just imagine the mongering scene in China today if Bo Xilai rather than Xi Jinping had been appointed Chairman in 2012!

Ikks.

[QUOTE=Lando1906;2083186] if I talk to a girl there and we will go to my hotel, what will the hotel do? Block me and her? Call police? And will they break my door and catch me or what may happen?[/QUOTE]What will they do? Noone knows.

What can they do? They can follow you and the girl from the bar to the hotel. Ask the hotel security for access to CCTV to discretly determine which room both of you went in. And then wait for the "perfect moment" to break in and arrest the both of you.

Deport the girl and blacklist her visa for 5 years if she's a foreigner.

Is it common? Not that much in Shanghai, more common in Beijing in the past but has been done in the past in Shanghai too back in the expo days and mainly for 3* hotels. In Beijing there were many events shown on TV of Russian WG being followed from the bar to the hotel in 2011 anti yellow fever or however they called it campaign, .

For sake of clarity on the likelihood of "getting in trouble", the only genuine cases (not speculation) that we've heard of customers getting detained are:

A) During the time the police controlled Judy's phone or trailed some SNL girls (from late August), you contacted Judy or SNL girl, agreed on an arrangement, and went through with the service and you're in a hotel where there is security camera evidence of woman coming in and out of your room.

Appears that you can get detained anywhere from zero to 14 days after the deed. Even longer than that, it's not clear yet.

So far I've yet to hear any real evidence of people getting detained if:

1) You moved to a different location since you did the deed.

2) You arranged a meeting, did the deed, but the hotel did not have security camera evidence.

3) You made inquiries to Judy but didn't arrange a meeting.

4) You arranged a meeting with another manager (not Judy).

5) You arranged a meeting with someone at Judy's, Manhattans, etc.

6) You got a he at a massage parlor that still allows it.

**This is not to say that you can't in trouble if you do the above, but we haven't heard anything concrete yet. If you have, please report it so we can safeguard ourselves.

As others mentioned, it's simply not safe in Shanghai. It's probably best to stay away from everything until things become more clear.

Although Judy / Manhattan's seem safe, I'm concerned that the police has some of those girls as bait. I don't want to scare anybody off, but if the police are continuing to escalate things, then we should expect more tricks.