Thai Women - Opinions & Advice

[QUOTE=Mick Licker]There is a girl who used to work in Long Gun. Got a boyfriend and no longer dances, no longer goes with customers, doesn't seem to do any work, but still keeps turning up to the bar to be with her friends. Seems to miss it badly like you said.[/QUOTE]

It's because they're the only friends she can make in this culture, or at least the only people she can feel comfortable with. Having gone into the business, it has changed her forever. Yes, as Seydlitz says, these girls are human. But, they are quite fucked up humans, not merely because of the easy money, but because of a myriad of things, such as the other fucked-up girls, the surreal atmosphere of the bars and the business, the drugs, the customers...you name it - not to mention the secrecy she has to maintain about what she has done and her complete lack of knowing what else to do with her life.

A good friend of mine with an excellent business and well-connected after 12 years still can't seem to move past one ex-BG GF after another. He eventually ends these relationships (and, BTW is about to again), not because of some dramatic event like the girl returning to the biz or cheating, but because of the simple fact that they all do this exact same thing: stop working, end up really doing nothing, don't move forward and stagnate in a pointless existence, are uncomfortable with most people, especially other Thais because of their pasts and frequently return to the bar for social reasons because it's the only place they feel at home. My friend's biggest complaint is that they all end up lacking in ambition and ultimately become boring and an emotional drain because they don't fit in anywhere, but the bar.

The sad thing is he'll probably do it again and history will repeat itself.


BTW, one can take a TG out of Thailand. But, she has to be intelligent, educated and cosmopolitan - not from P4P and not some uneducated farm-girl from the countryside, as are almost all the girls in P4P.

LOL.

A TG who is "intelligent, educated and cosmopolitan" would either be single, or would be married to a rich Thai.

They would not be with a farang, thats for sure.

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]BTW, one can take a TG out of Thailand. But, she has to be intelligent, educated and cosmopolitan - not some uneducated farm-girl from the countryside, as are almost all the girls in P4P.[/QUOTE]

or as some have said "you can the girl out of the bar, but you can't take the bar out of the girl" :)

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]It's because they're the only friends she can make in this culture, or at least the only people she can feel comfortable with. Having gone into the business, it has changed her forever. Yes, as Seydlitz says, these girls are human. But, they are quite fucked up humans, not merely because of the easy money, but because of a myriad of things, such as the other fucked-up girls, the surreal atmosphere of the bars and the business, the drugs, the customers...you name it - not to mention the secrecy she has to maintain about what she has done and her complete lack of knowing what else to do with her life.

A good friend of mine with an excellent business and well-connected after 12 years still can't seem to move past one ex-BG GF after another. He eventually ends these relationships (and, BTW is about to again), not because of some dramatic event like the girl returning to the biz or cheating, but because of the simple fact that they all do this exact same thing: stop working, end up really doing nothing, don't move forward and stagnate in a pointless existence, are uncomfortable with most people, especially other Thais because of their pasts and frequently return to the bar for social reasons because it's the only place they feel at home. My friend's biggest complaint is that they all end up lacking in ambition and ultimately become boring and an emotional drain because they don't fit in anywhere, but the bar.

The sad thing is he'll probably do it again and history will repeat itself.


BTW, one can take a TG out of Thailand. But, she has to be intelligent, educated and cosmopolitan - not from P4P and not some uneducated farm-girl from the countryside, as are almost all the girls in P4P.[/QUOTE]
OTH,
Maybe a girl has to be intellegent and highly educated to suit you. But this is definitely not a requirement for everyone. Not every woman in the world can be highly educated and above average intellengence.

A good personality is a higher priority. I have known one Thai girl for 15 years in Australia who only has Bor Hok but is artistic and is an excellent Thai chef (never done P4P and previously worked in Hotels) and good at decorative carving.

She actually shows signs of intellegence despite her father forcing her to quit school at a young age to work. She plays Canasta and Dummy card games with skill levels at least equal to myself and probably higher.

But I suppose that you are right in that she is in the minority. She has very few Thai friends as not many of the Thais meet her standard to be a close friend. She particularly finds that the other Thai girls from rich families who came to Aus as students are often selfish types and don't know how to work properly.

When we evaluate girls, we don't check their education certificates, nor IQs. :) Personality, face, body, employment, money are probably all more important.

[QUOTE=Easy2007]LOL.

A TG who is "intelligent, educated and cosmopolitan" would either be single, or would be married to a rich Thai.

They would not be with a farang, thats for sure.[/QUOTE]

I'm sorry. But, that's simply not the case. My current GF is all three. Over the last 11 years I've mostly only dated Thai women who more or less fit this discription. I also have several Farang friends who are also in relationships with Thai women who fit this description. My boss, who's very HiSo, and has a PhD from the U. of California is married to an American. Another Thai professor with whom I work has an Italian BF.

Perhaps you're to be excused because like many Farang, your experience may only be with a certain type of Thai girl and therefore, you simply don't know any better.

[QUOTE=Mick Licker]OTH,
Maybe a girl has to be intellegent and highly educated to suit you. But this is definitely not a requirement for everyone. Not every woman in the world can be highly educated and above average intellengence.[/QUOTE]

"Educated" can mean many things and doesn't necessarily have to be formal education. I had a GF once who only had Mor Hok, but who was very intelligent, a voracious reader and hungry for knowledge. I would consider her in many ways more educated and intelligent than some of the PhDs I work with. I took her to Canada and she loved everything about it and fit quite well into the culture and the lifestyle.

What I was mainly referring to was that a TG who is intelligent, educated and cosmopolitan is capable of surviving much better outside of Thai culture.

Thais at the best of times are very insular and don't adapt well outside their own milieu. So interest in things beyond watching Thai soap operas and eating som tam is a necessity. Most BGs simply can't cope. For example, I've met many girls from Isaan who won't even eat Thai food, let alone anything foreign.

Europe, in particular has large numbers of ex-BGs, who really didn't think ahead and who, as a result are living somewhat lonely, miserable lives with guys who they thought were rich, but who turned out to be ordinary. They are cut off from the life-line of family, food and culture. Most ultimately return home and end up back in the game.

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]"Bad" is the wrong word to use. Corrupted by circumstances is more appropriate and all Thais, no matter what the source of corruption are incredibly susceptible to it. Given that in my experience, Thais are among the laziest people in the world, they tend to always take the easy way out. P4P, with its short-term gains is certainly preferable over toiling for hours in a factory for the same amount a girl could make in a night. Of course, long term damage to one's life is never ever considered because Thais NEVER plan ahead - part of the Buddhist 'live in the moment' mindset. As to your specific question: Regardless of how unjaded she may be and how good she is, the chances are extremely slim that you can take her out of the bar to work in a "respectable" job and somehow keep her off the game. I'm sure it has happened. But, I've never heard of any successes. So, I think it's quite rare.[/QUOTE]Just commenting on some generalisation OTH made - Thais are among the laziest people in the world - and - Thais NEVER plan ahead - part of the Buddhist 'live in the moment' mindset - I would like to add the following cultural observations.

Thailand as a country over the last thousand or more year is and has been a country that is blest by its geographically position. It is rarely afflicted by natural disasters (drought, typhoon etc) and has weather eg rain and heat, that allow ideal fruit / vegetable growing conditions. Most fruit types just grow in the wild. Rivers and streams are everywhere and yield abundant fish and crustaceans. Therefore the pressing need over centuries for the population to ensure that adequate food supplies were on hand to survive unforeseen futire events, such natural diasasters, severe cold winters, mad dictators etc such as China, Europeans societies have had to deal with may have some bearing on why Thais seem so laid back about the future and also about working hard. Tomorrow will take care of tomorrow. It always has in the past and probably always will in the future. Not exactly a "western" outlook on life but it would appear to be an outlook atht is relativel stress free.

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]"Educated" can mean many things and doesn't necessarily have to be formal education....a TG who is intelligent, educated and cosmopolitan is capable of surviving much better outside of Thai culture...I've met many girls from Isaan who won't even eat Thai food, let alone anything foreign....They are cut off from the life-line of family, food and culture. Most ultimately return home and end up back in the game.[/QUOTE]As I am somewhat new to living in Thailand (2 years), I have followed this thread with interest and I tend to agree with most of what has been written. Both pro and con. I am in a close relationship with a lovely Thai woman (not a BG or P4P), who is from the country, (not Isaan, but close).

On my trips home (alone), I often wonder how she might adapt to life outside of Thailand (in the US). I have come to believe that our home life would be fine but life outside of the home, especially in social situations, would be somewhat difficult. Some of it (at first) would be basic language and cultural differences, but more significantly I think that my American women friends would be "too much" for her. They can be an aggressive lot (which is not normally attractive), and possibly would feel threatened (by a demure Thai woman). Without clear discourse, (American women love to talk), they would a hard time understanding why I have "brought her over" to America.

I think that one of the reasons our relationship has been successful thus far is our respective ability and willingness to adapt to each other. I also often remind myself that I am the "visitor" in Thailand and it is my responsibility to listen and learn about the country and society I chose to live in.

As far as finding the perfect mate (e. G. , education, sophistication, class, etc.), I think that this is difficult in any country. Again, adapting is often required. An intelligent, well-rounded Thai woman definitely would do better in the US, but I think she would still miss "home. "

In terms of bar girls. The few that I've met and gotten to know as potential "girlfriends" have been fairly narrow in their thinking, interests and overall appeal. They're fun for a little while but the attraction usually wears thin as their predictability shines through.

[size=-2][b][u]EDITOR'S NOTE[/u]:[/b] [blue]I would suggest that the author or another Forum Member consider posting a link to this report in the Reports of Distinction thread. Please [url=http://www.internationalsexguide.info/forum/announcement-reportsofdistinction.php?]Click Here[/url] for more information.[/blue][/size]

[QUOTE=Sfifred]Not exactly a "western" outlook on life but it would appear to be an outlook atht is relativel stress free.[/QUOTE]

Your premise is extremely faulty. This isn't 15th century Ayutthaya.

Thais are faced with pressure to compete regionally and globally and simply can't. For example, the Vietnamese (with a similar climate and culture), but having survived decades of war, kick the shit out of the Thais on all levels. The Thais' laid-back, 'mai pen rai' attitude, results in an inability to cope with too much before they melt-down. In a fast-paced and modern world, from which they can't escape, their "good enough" approach to most things makes them ill-equipped to produce anything of real quality. I deal with this on a daily basis. My students, who are the best and the brightest, still pale by comparison not only to students anywhere in the West, but even when compared to those from India, Vietnam, and Korea.

Several studies have also revealed that stress among Thais is extremely high as are resultant suicide rates.

So much for your "relatively stress free" life.

[QUOTE=Fon Tok]As I am somewhat new to living in Thailand (2 years), I have followed this thread with interest and I tend to agree with most of what has been written. Both pro and con. I am in a close relationship with a lovely Thai woman (not a BG or P4P), who is from the country, (not Isaan, but close).

On my trips home (alone), I often wonder how she might adapt to life outside of Thailand (in the US). I have come to believe that our home life would be fine but life outside of the home, especially in social situations, would be somewhat difficult. Some of it (at first) would be basic language and cultural differences, but more significantly I think that my American women friends would be "too much" for her. They can be an aggressive lot (which is not normally attractive), and possibly would feel threatened (by a demure Thai woman). Without clear discourse, (American women love to talk), they would a hard time understanding why I have "brought her over" to America.

I think that one of the reasons our relationship has been successful thus far is our respective ability and willingness to adapt to each other. I also often remind myself that I am the "visitor" in Thailand and it is my responsibility to listen and learn about the country and society I chose to live in.

As far as finding the perfect mate (e. G. , education, sophistication, class, etc.), I think that this is difficult in any country. Again, adapting is often required. An intelligent, well-rounded Thai woman definitely would do better in the US, but I think she would still miss "home. "

In terms of bar girls. The few that I've met and gotten to know as potential "girlfriends" have been fairly narrow in their thinking, interests and overall appeal. They're fun for a little while but the attraction usually wears thin as their predictability shines through.reportsofdistinction.[/QUOTE]

good post. Yes anyone, even someone who is open-minded, sophisticated and educated can get homesick. But, the issue is one of adaptability. The type of girl to which I refer has often been to other countries and does at least have some semblance of understanding of life outside of Thailand. An up-country girl, even one not in P4P is probably not a suitable candidate to take to your home country. Often, I have found that a lot of them aren't even comfortable in Bangkok and much prefer their village. So, why some guys think they can take one home and it will work out is beyond me.

[QUOTE=Seydlitz]Do you really think she went back to the bar life for the money? Odds are that she was missing the fun and excitement of that life, the daily contact with many other people, .. If money played a part, it might just have been for the gratifying fact of making one’s own money, not depending on a boyfriend to dole out some cash for everything.

The other thing is that Thais genuinely believe that they can act any way they like and that nobody will ever find out, which is odd since in that society gossip is an art and the chance of somebody ratting you out is so overwhelming that cheating on one’s spouse is a dangerous sport indeed.[/QUOTE]

.....very interesting thoughts. She didn't work in a bar....it is a high end brothel in BKK....she was a hostess, but also took on customers, mostly Japanese and Korean. I do agree that she was missing the fun and excitement, especially when you consider that she obtained a very low paying office job (5,000 B/month) where it was hot in the office and probably no fun at all dealing with the Taipan who ran the place. The daily contact with other people was probably another factor.....she was very close to two girls in the club and one who works near the club...also as a p4p. ALL of her friends were p4p....yet she said 100 times that she didn't want to do this anymore due to the dangers involved (stds and violent customers). She, in fact, started the idea of leaving the profession.....she knew I wasn't happy about her "contacts" (kept making immature comments about the small size of her customer's penis'....which was another childish, silly aspect of her personality).....but she was the one who wanted to stay with me and leave the business....I did not push her into anything. Your sentence about her not wanting to take money from me is very close to what was going on. She was unusual in that she really didn't want money from me for daily stuff.....and when she had to ask as her funds were depleted.....I saw it made her sick. She was trying to build up an account so that when I came back she wouldn't have to ask me for money for shampoo....and I understand that. Your second paragraph is exactly what happened.....when my friend told her the game was over....her brain got overloaded and her eyes rolled back in her head and she fell on the floor. My friend tells me that it all looked very genuine.....she was then hysterical and the girls had to console her.

The whole thing is very sad. She and I were tested for everything possible before we began a condomless relationship......and this is what angers me the most. Maybe I was giving her too much credit for understanding what was going on, but I'm not a guy who barebacks someone I don't trust. Now, with all that has happened, I don't trust her....and I would be wasting my time (and hers) if I continued with her....as my intentions would not be good as far as anything long term.

Well, she is out there.......maybe one night one of you guyz will see her getting into a taxi on her way home and you can score a beautiful girl for all the sexual fun you can think of......but beware......no truth will ever be spoken and you run the risk of being with someone who is fairly artful at the ways of deception. (By way of full disclosure, I gave up mongering after I met her as I felt satisfied by what she was offering....and that is probably why I feel so cheated on here. She seemed to have an extreme low opinion of the "customers"....and seemed to be most happy when she was far from any contact with them. I guess I read this whole thing wrong.....I'll be more experienced next time!!)

Old Thai hand and Fon Tok, hid it right on the mark as far as I'm concern! My wife is from the country Sukhothai Rice fields. Things with her is very simple with lots of common sense build into it. I could never afford to bring her to the U.S. to live and she would never agree to it anyways that is one of the things we have in common so I'm here living in Thailand and adapting to life. She never being on a Airplane let alone a amusement ride I got a Tourist Visa last year for her and we all went and just knew before hand she wouldn't like it. The weather, the food you name it. She was counting down the days to return and on the night we left she called her friend and advise her get the pepper ready! but she enjoyed the experience that she thought was never going to happen.

LBM

Found this research study of Thai migrants in the UK by the Runnymede Trust:

[url]http://www.runnymedetrust.org/uploads/file/EmpoweringIndividualsCreatingCommunity-2008.pdf[/url]

As always, the truth seems to lie somewhere between the extremes of opinion that are oft expressed on ISG. Be warned: Its quite in-depth, and more than a few minutes read.

[QUOTE=Terry Terrier]Found this research study of Thai migrants in the UK by the Runnymede Trust:

[url]http://www.runnymedetrust.org/uploads/file/EmpoweringIndividualsCreatingCommunity-2008.pdf[/url]

As always, the truth seems to lie somewhere between the extremes of opinion that are oft expressed on ISG. Be warned: Its quite in-depth, and more than a few minutes read.[/QUOTE]

An interesting read. But, I don't think it totally relates to the topic at hand. The discussion has primarily focused on a Farang taking a TG to his home country as a companion or more and usually with some sort of lack of understanding of the reality of it all. While I'm sure issues faced my migrant workers are quite similar, the difference is that they usually go to another country (such as the UK, Israel, Dubai etc.) solo and to work. It's also often a temporary thing with plans to eventually return home.

But, issues of culture shock, loneliness and disconnection are the same in both instances.

I certainly agree with the missing fun/entertainment aspect as one reason for girls to return to their bars even if they have a sponsor, but major issue was not mentioned up to now: Trust!

In this high season (starting November 2007) we lost 11 girls up to now, stopped working by customers. 4 of them are back already, surprisingly, they lost face towards the colleagues in the bar, usually the girls do not return to the same bar. They start working somewhere else when they return to the bar life.

Only 2 of the girls showed up for entertainment many nights after they stopped, lonely, missing the night life, keeping their social contacts with their friends and "sisters". 5 girls quit, and were not seen again here at Livingstone's (up to now).

One girl (one of our dancers) was stopped working approx. 6 months ago, and she will be back today. The relationship has obviously calmed down, and the money flow is not as expected. She was promised to get a new house at her home village, so she broke down the old one. Now she still waits for the money to build that new house, and waits, and waits - and the family has no place to stay at the moment. That's what she told us - and of course you can never know whether this is the truth or not...

In my experience money and fun are of course important reasons, but trust is more important. Those girls have their obligations in the background, they are taking care of their kids or their parents or both, they build houses in their villages - they need a steady income. But most of them are still looking for the man for all life, and then money does not really count, as long as it is sufficient to fulfil the existing obligations. They want to feel safe, and financially supported.

The girls stop working and agree to a monthly budget which is usually much lower than their usual income from the bar. They "give it a chance", 15 - 20 k a month is enough (still a lot compared to the income levels here in Thailand), instead of 50 k - 75 k they had before (depending on their looks, behavior, success with customers). As long as they believe in that customer, that this man will take care of them and their families, that he has a good heart, that he will give her a future - they will most likely not return to the bar. They will visit their collegues in the beginning sometimes, but then they return to their villages and change their lifes.

When they get the impression that they cannot trust that specific man they will return immediately and start working to make more money. And they will [of course] not tell the sponsor...

The older a girl is, the more experienced she is - the less she "gives it a try". Those girls have already the experience that it most likely will not work, and they don't want to lose time. The older girls usually pretend to stop working, and they have most likely more than only one sponsor.

The higher the "montly allowance" is the faster the girls return to the bar. We had one case in this season in which a customer agreed to pay 60 k a month. The girl was back after 2 months.

If you want to stop a girl working in a bar make sure that she trusts you, and that she believes in a future with you as her boyfriend / husband. That is the key. Plans to move to Thailand or to bring her to your home country. Visiting the family, being interested in their well-being. Once she trusts she stops.


Giotto