General Reports

[QUOTE=Cappy]Hello Folks:
This isn't a report, but more of a travel query. Are there any travel sites like c-trip that allow booking or give information on flights from Hong Kong into China?
Cap[/QUOTE]Hi Cappy,

Have you given zuji.com a try? The full HK version of their site is at: [url]http://www.zuji.com.hk[/url]

Typically they have some decent online deals all over Asia. However, there are often some strict limitations for the cheapest tickets - ie: must use Visa card; must travel with 2 people; must stay 3 days, but no more then 5; etc. It just really depends on where you're going and the time of year. Several weeks ago, they had a return fare from HKG to XMN for HK$588 plus tax.

Scorpio

[QUOTE=Azanluver]I'm heading to HK for the first time next week. Just a couple questions about the 141 site. If they have the address, does that mean you can just show up or do you need to make an appointment? I assume you just show up since some show only the phone number. I'll be staying at the Cosmopolitan near causeway so if anyone knows of anything nearby I'd appreciate it.

Thanks[/QUOTE]

Do your homework first, make sure you have a list of girls and/or alternative venues (building or floor) and if you use a pda or mobile phone with internet access, note you can see the menu of girls on the site while you're hunting. Not all the girls are in and/or working, so it is hit and miss.

Then away you go.....walk to the first building or location of choice...it's all hit and miss.

Knock on the door, check her out before you enter....you are not obligated to walk in so be a little 'selective'. Trust me, the girls won't be 'insulted', it happens to them all the time.

[QUOTE=Gren62]I've seen a lot of barber shop signs outside of buildings in the Temple Street/Jordan area. What are those places? Surely, they can't all be actual barber shops!

Thanks.[/QUOTE]Haha,

(1) Is it a large place? If it is, it's for sex.

(2) Is it open at late night? If it is, it's for sex.

(3) Are there more guys than girls outside? If there are...it's for sex.

(4) Go in. If they treat you all too well. It's for sex.

I've never been to a barber shop in the traditional sense in Asia in my life.

[QUOTE=Gherkin] Why do I care? Mostly I just want to stay away from any situation where the girl is some sort of near-slave who has been tricked into the business, or who gets virtually nothing while the house or pimp gets virtually everything. I'd much rather go with a girl who is going to earn a decent living out of her job.
[/QUOTE]

The definition of "exploited" is subjective and vague. Exploited means someone is not getting paid what he/she is worth. So it's just a point of view.

A better question to ask is if working girls in Hong Kong are being coerced. And the answer is NO. There is no evidence of slavery or trickery. She's voluntarily doing it because she feels it's in her interest.

[QUOTE=Gherkin]
Why do I care? Mostly I just want to stay away from any situation where the girl is some sort of near-slave who has been tricked into the business, or who gets virtually nothing while the house or pimp gets virtually everything. I'd much rather go with a girl who is going to earn a decent living out of her job.

So, the question is: in places like 37 Dundas, K-Pressure, or the 1 4 1/hotel girls, do I have to worry about the girls being exploited in these ways? I'm hoping not, but as a newbie I have to ask for input. I have read that tipping to the girl is discouraged, so that means the house controls the money. All knowledgeable opinions welcomed.

Gherkin[/QUOTE]


I have met a few 141 girls who were forced into the business due to debts owed on the mainland. One girl went back early and told me that the 'agent' harassased her family and was forced to go back to work.

I agree with you completely in not supporting the 'slave' business but it becomes a fine line. For example, one really stunning Thai girl I knew in BKK long ago decided to go to work in Macau because her friend told her it she can make alot of money. She went over on her free will but the mamasan took her passport and forced her to work off a debenture before she saw any money.

So it is a grey area sometimes. In that case the girl went on her own free will but there are many cases where girls are 'tricked'. This is often the case in naive filipina's who are told they are just going to be 'dancers' or just 'talk to guys'.

That is one reason I enjoy the 'freelance' market which is predominatly in Wan Chai. The girls have freely chosen that lifestyle and while they may 'owe' some agent some fees (for getting them a visa and housing) it is entirely their choice of life.

[QUOTE=FurryFriend]
A better question to ask is if working girls in Hong Kong are being coerced. And the answer is NO. There is no evidence of slavery or trickery. She's voluntarily doing it because she feels it's in her interest.[/QUOTE]


I strongly disagree with that and I bet alot of other long timers have stories to tell of 'coerced' women especially from the 'go go's' on Lockhart road.

Freelance girls are a different story but structured sex business' such as 141 and generally those focused on the masses (such as the Mongkok brothels) it is entirely different.

Yes, there is some slavery is going on hong kong. I personally know Philippine girls who are brought here on the pretex of getting a legitimate job only to find out they have to sell their bodies to pay off the debt.
I am sure many girls are brought here in the same way.
It is very difficult to know who is co-erced into prostituition and who is not. The girls always tell lies to make you believe they are victims.

For me to feel good, I need to know that the girl is doing ok out of the deal. Tipping directly to the girl is one way to help that situation, but again and again I've read that places like 37 Dundas suggest (or is it insist) "no tip".

On the other hand, people continue to report very positively about the enthusiastic service from the girls at 37D (even with no tip expected). Surely we wouldn't see too much of that if the girls weren't doing ok out of the deal. Perhaps naive of me to think so. Perhaps they get beaten if customer says bad service. God, I hope not.

Help me out here, guys. I'm no more hard or soft hearted than anyone else, but if the girl doesn't do well out of it, I can't feel good about bonking her.

At least at a 1 4 1 the money goes into the hands of the girl (although perhaps with horrendous "taxes" to the building and triad - once again, I hope not too bad). It's not that I want to understand every detail of the business, but I do at least want the sex to be properly consenting, not coerced.

Gherkin

[QUOTE=Sammon]Yes, there is some slavery is going on hong kong. I personally know Philippine girls who are brought here on the pretex of getting a legitimate job only to find out they have to sell their bodies to pay off the debt.

I am sure many girls are brought here in the same way.

It is very difficult to know who is co-erced into prostituition and who is not. The girls always tell lies to make you believe they are victims.[/QUOTE]

This web site, [url]http://www.hku.hk/ccpl/pub/occasionalpapers/paper3/paper3-part4.htm[/url] has some examples of HK slavery, but in general it says the number of examples is quite small.

Gherkin

[QUOTE=Hk Dog]I strongly disagree with that and I bet alot of other long timers have stories to tell of 'coerced' women especially from the 'go go's' on Lockhart road.

Freelance girls are a different story but structures sex business' such as 141 and generally those focused on the masses (such as the Mongkok brothels) it is entirely different.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Gherkin]This web site, [url]http://www.hku.hk/ccpl/pub/occasionalpapers/paper3/paper3-part4.htm[/url] has some examples of HK slavery, but in general it says the number of examples is quite small.

Gherkin[/QUOTE]


It is shades of grey. They most likely are not kidnapped off the streets , bundled up and put into the back of a truck and sent to another country like you might see in other areas of the world.

However alot are 'misled' and adopt a 'grin it and bear it' attitude.

Try to arrange a meeting with a Flipper in a go go bar after work. They have to go back to their apt after the bar closes and not allowed to go out unaccompanied. This is a form of slavery since she has no free will on her movements during non working hours.

[QUOTE=Gherkin]I'd much rather go with a girl who is going to earn a decent living out of her job.

in places like 37 Dundas, K-Pressure, or the 1 4 1/hotel girls, do I have to worry about the girls being exploited in these ways? I'm hoping not, but as a newbie I have to ask for input. I have read that tipping to the girl is discouraged, so that means the house controls the money. All knowledgeable opinions welcomed.[/QUOTE]


I completely agree that the girls should do well on this deal too. Most opinions so far are that the gogo's are NOT good situations for the girls (possibly not all of them), nevertheless, I don't have any experience with this venue. 37 and K I do know... my superficial understanding is that they make out pretty well, are there only briefly to make some dough and then head back home. No long indentured servitude. In the end, some middlemen (mama, transport, hotels, owner, etc) make alot too, but that is reality everywhere. Same for 141.

[QUOTE=Manfest]I completely agree that the girls should do well on this deal too. Most opinions so far are that the gogo's are NOT good situations for the girls (possibly not all of them), nevertheless, I don't have any experience with this venue. 37 and K I do know... my superficial understanding is that they make out pretty well, are there only briefly to make some dough and then head back home. No long indentured servitude. In the end, some middlemen (mama, transport, hotels, owner, etc) make alot too, but that is reality everywhere. Same for 141.[/QUOTE]



I believe that girls in places like 37 and K pressure also have limited movement once they are 'off work'. It is alot different then lets say a stripper in the West who when work finishes she can do whatever she likes. Girls in HK that cater towards the masses cannot usually do what they want after work. They are controlled by their minders.

Only those who have HK ID's have more freedom. That is why the girls in the 141's tend to be older since they had to put in some 'time' to get the ID.

[QUOTE=Manfest]In the end, some middlemen (mama, transport, hotels, owner, etc) make alot too, but that is reality everywhere. Same for 141.[/QUOTE]I don't mind the idea of the girl's handlers doing well too, as long as the girl does ok. From what I've heard so far, I'm looking forward to coming to HK and trying out the places mentioned. Thanks for all responses so far.

Gherkin

Gentlemen

For mongering purposes, should I come to HK.

- a week before Chinese New Year
- during Chinese New Year (I presume not - girls home with family?)
- the week after Chinese New Year
- further away from Chinese New Year
- Chinese New year doesn't matter at all

Thks

Gherkin

[wanted to say I did RTFF and the recent post about CNY which said to avoid that particular week, but didn't touch upon whether before or after was a better bet. --G]