Bangkok Massage Parlors - Except TULIP and ANNIES!

[QUOTE=Syzygies;1885170]Most MPs for Thais have been changed to pay upfront, due to problems with customers fucking the girl then finding they have no money. Did not happen with Thais only. Plenty of PSE shop girls have reported this problem, too. Refusing customers is not well taken by management even if the customer is a very well known cheat, on the girl grapevine. MPs for Farangs are mostly changing over to pay up front unless customer is well known. That is how it is. I just accept it. I am not going to stay away from the best looking girls due to policies of paying up front.

The concept of having extra power, is an illusion to me. I don't have asshole personality to fuck and then not pay. I guess theoretically could leave after just 5 or 10 minutes without paying if girl has not yet been molested or nothing sexual took place. However I almost never find out how bad a girl is going to be that quickly in practice. Maybe once or twice happened with a girl really hopeless that I knew pretty much straight away. Vodka at Cherry (maybe), and some pathetic girl at Pink..[/QUOTE]My 2 cents:

Isn't one of the goals of this forum to tell about bad experiences and good experiences? Most of the places I've been to for P4P are pay in advance and though I have been to some in Bangkok where you can pay on the way out, I don't think it made much difference, at least not more than selecting the right girl. I truly think it's more about finding the right girl who provides the services you want. I don't think you can say "kiss me or I won't pay you" and she'll just comply because you haven't paid yet.

I know the whole YMMV but if someone here says this or that girl wasn't cool, I would probably not go for her, whereas if someone said this or that girl was cool I might give her a try and see how it goes. The whole pay first or after is of little consequence compared to "casing" the girls and finding out about them before hand.

Nopo

[QUOTE=Dan7373;1885642]I think certainty without any doubt is very important to have in a sexual type of situation for both the guy and the lady. Because when you are having doubts for any reason, then this takes away from your enjoyment and your participation.

You might have trouble getting an erection going, if your mind isn't 100% on the lady. And the lady might be mechanical in her service, if she is worried about getting paid and her mind isn't on what she is doing with you.

Paying the lady in advance is a way to make it very certain for yourself and the lady. Neither you nor she need to worry about consent and payment. Both of you can just enjoy with each other, without any worry.

If you want to have good service from the lady, then you need to put her mind at ease and make it comfortable for her. Or else she won't be able to do a good job with you, even if she wants to.

In other types of business, it's normal to pay in advance for your services, in most situations. When you fly on an airplane for example, then you pay in advance. When you go to watch a movie, then you pay in advance too. Most colleges and universities require payment in advance. The only exception I can think of is eating at the restaurant, where you pay after you eat. But even among restaurants, fast-food restaurants require payment before you eat. And they are more popular than any other type of restaurant. Which means that payment in advance might be a better way of doing it.

A P4P type of situation is different from other types of services. It's important to put the lady at ease and take her anxieties away. Because the quality of her service depends on it. Not paying the lady in advance is liable to lead to mechanical service from the lady, because her anxiety about getting paid is a distraction for her feelings with you.[/QUOTE]I feel Dan you may be overestimating the anxiety the lady will be feeling if she has not been paid up front. If she is in the business for any length of time she will know that at Bangkok oilies at least it is very much the exception a customer does not pay. I can see your point that receiving payment upfront puts her at ease but equally I understand the argument that once she's paid she may become blasé on service. As I said before I don't believe working girls have different routines for different situations or different customers no matter how much some of us might like to think we get special treatment. I know this but I still love to hear her tell me I am a good customer and she wants to see me again.

[QUOTE=Dan7373;1885642]I think certainty without any doubt is very important to have in a sexual type of situation for both the guy and the lady. Because when you are having doubts for any reason, then this takes away from your enjoyment and your participation.

You might have trouble getting an erection going, if your mind isn't 100% on the lady. And the lady might be mechanical in her service, if she is worried about getting paid and her mind isn't on what she is doing with you.

Paying the lady in advance is a way to make it very certain for yourself and the lady. Neither you nor she need to worry about consent and payment. Both of you can just enjoy with each other, without any worry.

If you want to have good service from the lady, then you need to put her mind at ease and make it comfortable for her. Or else she won't be able to do a good job with you, even if she wants to.

In other types of business, it's normal to pay in advance for your services, in most situations. When you fly on an airplane for example, then you pay in advance. When you go to watch a movie, then you pay in advance too. Most colleges and universities require payment in advance. The only exception I can think of is eating at the restaurant, where you pay after you eat. But even among restaurants, fast-food restaurants require payment before you eat. And they are more popular than any other type of restaurant. Which means that payment in advance might be a better way of doing it.

A P4P type of situation is different from other types of services. It's important to put the lady at ease and take her anxieties away. Because the quality of her service depends on it. Not paying the lady in advance is liable to lead to mechanical service from the lady, because her anxiety about getting paid is a distraction for her feelings with you.[/QUOTE]Ok, I'll play along. I have far too much respect for everyone's freedom to change their mind at any point in the P4 P experience to support Pay Upfront. The lady can always change her mind about what sexual activity she will allow and engage in whether it is Pay After or Pay Upfront. But only with Pay After does the customer have a reasonable and fair counterpart freedom to change his mind about how much he will pay her if she chooses to do so.

I mean, as long as we are so concerned about everyone's anxiety, comfort level and all of that.

But those other Pay Upfront examples you gave are not even remotely comparable to what one would be paying for upfront in a public setting but receiving in privacy as on a P4 P experience.

There is no practical debate about whether a movie ticket seller, an airline ticket seller, a college or a fast food chain server should be paid after instead of upfront because in those cases the outcome is tangible, standardized and in full view of the public. If there was a rash of Upfront Paying customers finding themselves sitting in a darkened theater with only trailers playing for two hours, travelers paying for flights to Las Vegas that land in Newark, colleges handing out tissue paper instead of certificates or diplomas and trays of plain hamburger patties with a lone slice of pickle on them served intead of the Big Mac Combos ordered, then we've got reason for debate about whether or not those products ought to be paid for upfront.

[QUOTE=EihTooms;1885691]Ok, I'll play along. I have far too much respect for everyone's freedom to change their mind at any point in the P4 P experience to support Pay Upfront. The lady can always change her mind about what sexual activity she will allow and engage in whether it is Pay After or Pay Upfront. But only with Pay After does the customer have a reasonable and fair counterpart freedom to change his mind about how much he will pay her if she chooses to do so.

I mean, as long as we are so concerned about everyone's anxiety, comfort level and all of that.

But those other Pay Upfront examples you gave are not even remotely comparable to what one would be paying for upfront in a public setting but receiving in privacy as on a P4 P experience.

There is no practical debate about whether a movie ticket seller, an airline ticket seller, a college or a fast food chain server should be paid after instead of upfront because in those cases the outcome is tangible, standardized and in full view of the public. If there was a rash of Upfront Paying customers finding themselves sitting in a darkened theater with only trailers playing for two hours, travelers paying for flights to Las Vegas that land in Newark, colleges handing out tissue paper instead of certificates or diplomas and trays of plain hamburger patties with a lone slice of pickle on them served intead of the Big Mac Combos ordered, then we've got reason for debate about whether or not those products ought to be paid for upfront.[/QUOTE]Elh, just perfectly stated on your part. Could not agree more. And exactly why pay upfront is a bad model for us.

[QUOTE=Franciscass;1885686]I feel Dan you may be overestimating the anxiety the lady will be feeling if she has not been paid up front. If she is in the business for any length of time she will know that at Bangkok oilies at least it is very much the exception a customer does not pay. I can see your point that receiving payment upfront puts her at ease but equally I understand the argument that once she's paid she may become blas on service. As I said before I don't believe working girls have different routines for different situations or different customers no matter how much some of us might like to think we get special treatment. I know this but I still love to hear her tell me I am a good customer and she wants to see me again.[/QUOTE]All it takes is for one guy not to pay to the lady, and she will start feeling insecure about getting paid in all of her work with guys.

It's like getting robbed is a rare event. But if you get robbed, then you will start feeling insecure anyway.

Some years ago in Pattaya, I went to a dental clinic to have my teeth cleaned. I've been there before, and they usually asked for payment after doing their service. But this time, the receptionist seemed to have some serious doubts about my ability to pay. I actually had to show her my money, before she said it was okay for me to get my teeth cleaned.

I didn't ask for any explanation. But my guess was that some western guy didn't pay there, after getting some dental treatment.

I think this kind of thing can happen at any business, including at the massage parlor. And all it takes is one incident to make people feel insecure with everyone.

[QUOTE=EihTooms;1885691]...But only with Pay After does the customer have a reasonable and fair counterpart freedom to change his mind about how much he will pay her if she chooses to do so.

I mean, as long as we are so concerned about everyone's anxiety, comfort level and all of that....
[/QUOTE]Being concerned about everyone's anxiety means that you need to compromise between yourself and the lady. And a fair compromise is to pay the lady her basic fee in advance but make her tip dependent on her performance. This way both of you get a part of what you want. Which makes it a fair compromise.

It's tempting to be selfish with the lady and just take care of your own anxiety, while you ignore hers. But I think this in itself can cause bad service from the lady. Because her feelings won't be there with you. She won't feel good about you. And her bad feelings will show in how she does it with you.

[QUOTE=Dan7373;1886114]All it takes is for one guy not to pay to the lady[/QUOTE]

I understand this might be a problem with freelancers or even bargirls, but at an oily massage parlor? The guy would have to be nuts to try, being outnumbered 10:1, with a long flight of stairs and a door he doesn't have a key to. Add the few police officers on the regular payroll (to keep the parlor operating, but they'll help out in other matters to protect their cash cow). Sure, Thais look nice and smiley, but he's better off sticking his member into a beehive.

In the end, I doubt most of those ladies are all that anxious. Unfortunately, not getting paid occasionally, or encountering a customer who is unpleasant in other ways is unavoidable part of their job that they probably experienced a few times. Given the underclass background and careless attitude (money comes and goes) of most Thai hookers these days, an occasional non-paying customer is bad luck, but it would hardly leave permanent psychological damage and keep them from sleeping at night.

[QUOTE=Dan7373;1886120]Being concerned about everyone's anxiety means that you need to compromise between yourself and the lady. And a fair compromise is to pay the lady her basic fee in advance but make her tip dependent on her performance. This way both of you get a part of what you want. Which makes it a fair compromise.

It's tempting to be selfish with the lady and just take care of your own anxiety, while you ignore hers. But I think this in itself can cause bad service from the lady. Because her feelings won't be there with you. She won't feel good about you. And her bad feelings will show in how she does it with you.[/QUOTE]Dan, the most likely reason a Thai P4 P girl in a farang tourist area would feel anxiety about what she is doing is over the idea that getting paid more than 200 baht for what she was giving away for free back in her neighborhood might suddenly be recognized as something akin to felony robbery worthy of serious jail time.

Seriously, none of your no doubt heartfelt concerns conforms to the reality of P4 P in Thailand as you or any other farang tourist is likely to encounter more than a tiny fraction of their time there.

[QUOTE=Dan7373;1885224]When the massage lady takes your money, then this is her way of giving you consent for her usual services. That's why she doesn't object, when you start touching her sexually.

The lady's consent empowers you to touch her sexually. And that's why I say that you gain power, when you pay the lady in advance. It's the lady's consent that gives you the power to get sexual with her. And that's why I also say that I feel powerless, before the lady takes my money. I don't yet have her consent at this point.[/QUOTE]You aren't seriously claiming that every time I go to Tulip or Snow White or Mango and so forth, and pay after the session, that I am having sex without the lady's consent, are you? Because that is the clear implication of your statement.

[QUOTE=LAGuy5;1886373]You aren't seriously claiming that every time I go to Tulip or Snow White or Mango and so forth, and pay after the session, that I am having sex without the lady's consent, are you? Because that is the clear implication of your statement.[/QUOTE]The thing about this kind of consent is that it's informal and not clearly laid out. It's open to interpretation by both you and her. Which means that you need the lady's goodwill and not just her consent. Or else she might interpret it in a way that doesn't work well for you.

She might have agreed to have sex with you. But does this include hugging and kissing and petting? And do you decide in what position to ride? Or is this her decision only?

It's questions like this that depend on the lady's goodwill. And that's why I say that it's better to pay the lady in advance, so that she feels good about being with you.

Any kind of agreement is open to interpretation. And that's why it's important to have the other person's goodwill and not just the agreement.

I'd say that anxiety about pay isn't just about whether you will pay or not. It's also about how much you will pay. A guy who pays the basic fee in advance looks like a guy who might give the lady a good tip afterwards too. But if you wait until the end to pay, then this looks like you don't like to part with your money. It's like you are a Cheap Charlie, who will reluctantly pay only the basic fee in the end.

When you fulfil your part of the agreement reluctantly and only when you have to, then this doesn't do much to earn the lady's goodwill towards you. Your reluctance to pay her sends her a message that perhaps she should do the bare minimum with you too. If you don't go out of your way to please her, then why should she do anything extra for you?

I actually have a good reason for earning the lady's goodwill and not just getting her consent. I like to go after the lady and grope her a lot. It's like no matter which way she turns, she is going to feel my hands on her pussy, ass, and tits. I'm all hands with her, especially with her pussy and clit. This is my way of foreplaying the lady. I masturbate her pussy and clit. And I let her decide, when it's time for the ride. Sometimes I end up having sex with the lady, after she already orgasmed with me. Which requires the lady's goodwill. Because she is already satisfied and might not want the ride.

The ladies let me do this not because they have to, but because they have some goodwill towards me, and they trust me enough to do my stuff.

I'm not the kind of guy who enjoys being passive with the lady and letting her do all the work. I like to go after the lady to enjoy it with her. And that's why I need her goodwill for the drill.

But if you just lie back and accept whatever the lady gives you, then this is just the routine. You aren't doing anything extra. Which means that you don't need to worry too much about whether the lady will interpret her agreement with you in your favor or not. If you don't depart from the lady's routine, then paying her in advance or in the end might not make much difference for your experience with her.

Usually I don't write much here, but all massages Spas in Bangkok has deteriorated 10 x times worse while prices increased 5 times to how things were used 10 years ago, all the people who still defends Bangkok haven't been to other greener pastures, even the local Thai parlors the women developed bad attitude, the last time I was in this Thai shop in Latprao the women asked an additional 2,500 baht so she could allow me to kiss her etc. , services used to be great in Sukumvit area where almost someone could guarantee a good time, now s it not longer the case I feel like the girls are overworked and quality of services are really poor, no GFEs and it s indeed very expensive.

[QUOTE=Dan7373;1886491]The thing about this kind of consent is that it's informal and not clearly laid out. It's open to interpretation by both you and her. Which means that you need the lady's goodwill and not just her consent. Or else she might interpret it in a way that doesn't work well for you.

She might have agreed to have sex with you. But does this include hugging and kissing and petting? And do you decide in what position to ride? Or is this her decision only?

It's questions like this that depend on the lady's goodwill. And that's why I say that it's better to pay the lady in advance, so that she feels good about being with you.

Any kind of agreement is open to interpretation. And that's why it's important to have the other person's goodwill and not just the agreement.

I'd say that anxiety about pay isn't just about whether you will pay or not. It's also about how much you will pay. A guy who pays the basic fee in advance looks like a guy who might give the lady a good tip afterwards too. But if you wait until the end to pay, then this looks like you don't like to part with your money. It's like you are a Cheap Charlie, who will reluctantly pay only the basic fee in the end.

When you fulfil your part of the agreement reluctantly and only when you have to, then this doesn't do much to earn the lady's goodwill towards you. Your reluctance to pay her sends her a message that perhaps she should do the bare minimum with you too. If you don't go out of your way to please her, then why should she do anything extra for you?.[/QUOTE]I am really sorry if I sound rude and for sure everyone is free to have their own ideas. But to me all your reasoning sounds really strange.

I visited [URL]mitubangkok.com[/URL] and found 3 places.

What is the difference between nohand msg, Japanese msg, and hip's Bangkok?

Do they all offer full service? I notice the big difference in $$ among those 3.

[QUOTE=Dan7373;1883990]I found some sexy pictures of lady Chris at Mitu Massage, and I can see why you felt so good about walking up the stairs with her.

[URL]http://mitubangkok.com/nohand/cast.php[/URL]

[URL]http://mitubangkok.com/nohand/cast/chris.php[/URL]

Nice ass. Very nice indeed. And she wears a mini-skirt too. Following this sexy lady upstairs is like an accident waiting to happen. You don't pay attention where you are going. It doesn't take much for you to trip and fall, with your face right in the ass of this sexy lass.

I suppose this is why you need to be a Japanese guy. No touching and no groping, until she closes the door behind her. You need to have some patience. Or else you will embarrass the lady.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Dan7373;1886491]The thing about this kind of consent is that it's informal and not clearly laid out. It's open to interpretation by both you and her. Which means that you need the lady's goodwill and not just her consent. Or else she might interpret it in a way that doesn't work well for you.

She might have agreed to have sex with you. But does this include hugging and kissing and petting? And do you decide in what position to ride? Or is this her decision only?

It's questions like this that depend on the lady's goodwill. And that's why I say that it's better to pay the lady in advance, so that she feels good about being with you.

Any kind of agreement is open to interpretation. And that's why it's important to have the other person's goodwill and not just the agreement.

I'd say that anxiety about pay isn't just about whether you will pay or not. It's also about how much you will pay. A guy who pays the basic fee in advance looks like a guy who might give the lady a good tip afterwards too. But if you wait until the end to pay, then this looks like you don't like to part with your money. It's like you are a Cheap Charlie, who will reluctantly pay only the basic fee in the end.

When you fulfil your part of the agreement reluctantly and only when you have to, then this doesn't do much to earn the lady's goodwill towards you. Your reluctance to pay her sends her a message that perhaps she should do the bare minimum with you too. If you don't go out of your way to please her, then why should she do anything extra for you?

I actually have a good reason for earning the lady's goodwill and not just getting her consent. I like to go after the lady and grope her a lot. It's like no matter which way she turns, she is going to feel my hands on her pussy, ass, and tits. I'm all hands with her, especially with her pussy and clit. This is my way of foreplaying the lady. I masturbate her pussy and clit. And I let her decide, when it's time for the ride. Sometimes I end up having sex with the lady, after she already orgasmed with me. Which requires the lady's goodwill. Because she is already satisfied and might not want the ride.

The ladies let me do this not because they have to, but because they have some goodwill towards me, and they trust me enough to do my stuff.

I'm not the kind of guy who enjoys being passive with the lady and letting her do all the work. I like to go after the lady to enjoy it with her. And that's why I need her goodwill for the drill.

But if you just lie back and accept whatever the lady gives you, then this is just the routine. You aren't doing anything extra. Which means that you don't need to worry too much about whether the lady will interpret her agreement with you in your favor or not. If you don't depart from the lady's routine, then paying her in advance or in the end might not make much difference for your experience with her.[/QUOTE]Dan, at the end of the day we are still the customers and it is their job to make sure we are happy campers. While I appreciate your touchy feely approach to things, I am not there to please her, although that is a bonus if she in into it. I am there for a good service and a great time, and that is what I expect for my baht. I am nice, respectful, and fun, but again at the end of the day I expect performance. She is not paying me; I am paying her. It's not her routine; it's mine.

[QUOTE=LeLolo;1886547]Usually I don't write much here, but all massages Spas in Bangkok has deteriorated 10 x times worse while prices increased 5 times to how things were used 10 years ago, all the people who still defends Bangkok haven't been to other greener pastures, even the local Thai parlors the women developed bad attitude, the last time I was in this Thai shop in Latprao the women asked an additional 2,500 baht so she could allow me to kiss her etc. , services used to be great in Sukumvit area where almost someone could guarantee a good time, now s it not longer the case I feel like the girls are overworked and quality of services are really poor, no GFEs and it s indeed very expensive.[/QUOTE]You've been to ALL massage spas in Bangkok and NEVER posted a review? Not even one? You are preposterous. While I certainly agree that there has been some decline in service in some shops and some inflation overall, your point is pure and utter horse hockey. In the last ten years prices of extras, 500/1000/1500, have not changed. Most entry prices (at the oilies) have also not changed. There are some that want a flat rate when you enter, but generally they are happy to let you tip the girl for special services.

Normally I'd urge you to do a little more research before you post, but I think we might all be better off if you post at the same rate you did before this one.