Thai Women - Opinions & Advice

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I've found that a high percentage of P4P TGs are not punctual, especially regarding next day appointments. Best to pick them up and take them straight to your room.

Likewise they seem to be more outspoken than Western women, saying what's on their mind. Such as the one who text messaged me saying "Fuck you. And your little dog too". I replied that I'd welcome her fucking me, but I would also like to fuck her.

Even from TGs with an otherwise excellent attitude they might on occasion blurt out something stupid, like "no good", accusing you of having a bad heart, sigh lie. Give her a nice tip or offer to buy her dinner if she's ever hungry and, all of a sudden, she is calling you "good man".

This spicy food called Som Tam, papaya salad, that so many TGs love seems to cause stomach upset in a lot of them. If it does that to those who've lived here, think what it will do to you. While LOS does not have Tums, they claim to have one or two substitutes for it in Antacil {6 Baht} and Gelusil {20 Baht}.

For fucking my experience is that the best TGs cum from Udon Thani, or thereabouts. That is, if they are telling the truth about their hometowns.

If she starts talking about if you like big or small mew and you have no clue what she's saying, don't worry, she is not suggesting you have kitten for dinner. {As far as I know TGs do not eat them, either sushi style or well done. } She is actually asking you about milk, which is a reference to breasts.

Speaking of kittens, if she makes kitten sounds and then starts laughing hystericly, thinking that is somehow funny, you should understand that this is typical Thai humour. Just go along with it while knowing she has not recently been freed from the institution depicted in One Flew Over The Cuckoos Nest.

If she looks at you with a blank look after you've asked her a question, fear not, she has not suddenly gone deaf or lost her mind. It seems that this may be a typical Thai response meaning "no". Apparently they are afraid to say the word. So don't get upset if you've asked her 3 times and still get the same look. For example you may have asked her if she'll smoke {do a BJ} for one hour.

As for trusting what P4P TGs tell you, I'd say, forget about it. She speak with forked tongue. Or, as the Scriptures tell us about the prostitute, she flatters with her mouth {sweet mouth} but her heart is far from you.

Hey guys,

Have any of you dated a TG that lives in your home country?

If so, how are they to date?

Since I had a little free time back home in USA . I decided to try my luck with the Thai dating sights for the first time . I must say I was amazed at the number of girls that looking to find farang man for serious relationship most of them with a bachelor degrees and some with master degrees . . That obviously was not my intention I am looking just for some good clean fun , if you no what I mean . And I made it clear to the girls that I am not looking to get married and just want to have some fun and be friends . I wrote the same letter to about 100 girls from 20 to 28 years old all look attractive in the photos . I got 60 serious responds with there email and there interest to meet me . Out of 60 I got 25 Tel # and the promise that they are all waiting for me . Some of them even offered to pick me up from the airport . I am not a young man , I am over 50 , and all the girls saw my picture and they know exactly how I look . The only thing that attracts them I am sure is the fact that I have a condo and a new car in Bangkok . So money talks again even for none pro .
My biggest problem now is how to manage my time when I get to Bangkok in 2 weeks . Because I have a girl friend that she would cut my balls if she finds out about these girls .

[QUOTE=Love Sex 22]...
My biggest problem now is how to manage my time when I get to Bangkok in 2 weeks . Because I have a girl friend that she would cut my balls if she finds out about these girls .[/QUOTE]Love Sex 22,

LOL, I understand that you have a serious problem now. I feel for you :) .


Giotto

[QUOTE=PinkPearl]
Re the pics of girls, I'm not sure that I'm understanding your point. I'd assume that probably your first sentence is true, but don't see how the second follows from it, my view being that the ladies at those two places are as lovely as those on the website. Perhaps you meant to reiterate your opinion from another thread that these women in BKK are ugly. And that those on the site are so much superior to them that there is no comparison.[/QUOTE]
I mean't that the web sites would not expect to be rated as similar to the Nana Car park. They may be trying for a quite different look and certainly not similar to the ladyboys

I don't believe BKK women are ugly in general, nor do I go for the chinese, round faced, nor slanty-eyed looks that many others go for. I prefer a very obviously Thai look but with small nose. I think Thai have a higher proportion of good lookers than most Asian countries.
My taste would be as close as can get to a Thai version of Jessica Alba.

Its just that the Nana Car park is not where I would expect to find a lot of stunners to my taste. The odd one or two might be pretty enough to interest me.

[quote=love sex 22]i am not a young man , i am over 50 , and all the girls saw my picture and they know exactly how i look . the only thing that attracts them i am sure is the fact that i have a condo and a new car in bangkok . so money talks again even for none pro .
my biggest problem now is how to manage my time when i get to bangkok in 2 weeks . because i have a girl friend that she would cut my balls if she finds out about these girls .[/quote]

having played the online game for about 5 years now, i would strongly recommend caution when dealing with any of these girls.

first and foremost, don't ever let them know where your condo is - take them to a hotel, or go to their place. get another phone, separate from your usual phone and use this when communicating with any of them. they may say that they understand that you aren't looking for anything serious. but, trust me, none of them actually buy into this and will get very attached, very fast and will turn psycho, if they think you have someone else.

i've been stalked, threatened with a false pregnancy a few times, threatened with a charge of [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123][CodeWord123][/url] and police coming to my condo with the "victim", huge tantrums and crying jags in public, not to mention two incidents of physical assault (not serious, in that neither could punch very hard). but, the punching in one case attracted a group of angry motorcycle taxi guys who just assumed the worst about "the farang" and were ready to beat the crap out of me, until i managed to hop in a taxi and escape.

have fun. but, be careful.

[quote=old thai hand] ... i've been stalked, threatened with a false pregnancy a few times, threatened with a charge of [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123][CodeWord123][/url] and police coming to my condo with the "victim", huge tantrums and crying jags in public, not to mention two incidents of physical assault...[/quote]

and through it all, from start to finish, you were just treating each of them in your usual sweet, lovable, understanding, and good hearted way, right? :d

[QUOTE=Daddy07]And through it all, from start to finish, you were just treating each of them in your usual sweet, lovable, understanding, and good hearted way, right? :D[/QUOTE]

absolutely!

[quote=old thai hand]having played the online game for about 5 years now, i would strongly recommend caution when dealing with any of these girls.

first and foremost, don't ever let them know where your condo is - take them to a hotel, or go to their place. get another phone, separate from your usual phone and use this when communicating with any of them. they may say that they understand that you aren't looking for anything serious. but, trust me, none of them actually buy into this and will get very attached, very fast and will turn psycho, if they think you have someone else.

i've been stalked, threatened with a false pregnancy a few times, threatened with a charge of [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123][CodeWord123][/url] and police coming to my condo with the "victim", huge tantrums and crying jags in public, not to mention two incidents of physical assault (not serious, in that neither could punch very hard). but, the punching in one case attracted a group of angry motorcycle taxi guys who just assumed the worst about "the farang" and were ready to beat the crap out of me, until i managed to hop in a taxi and escape.

have fun. but, be careful.[/quote]
this is completely shocking, given the obviously "better" class of women that you only associate with. perhaps you should try shagging brown-skinned p4p girls fresh off the farm. i've done many dozens, perhaps hundreds of them, and never had this happen. i just pay them and they leave. charlie sheen would be proud.

[quote=old thai hand]having played the online game for about 5 years now, i would strongly recommend caution when dealing with any of these girls.

first and foremost, don't ever let them know where your condo is - take them to a hotel, or go to their place. get another phone, separate from your usual phone and use this when communicating with any of them. they may say that they understand that you aren't looking for anything serious. but, trust me, none of them actually buy into this and will get very attached, very fast and will turn psycho, if they think you have someone else.

i've been stalked, threatened with a false pregnancy a few times, threatened with a charge of [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123][CodeWord123][/url] and police coming to my condo with the "victim", huge tantrums and crying jags in public, not to mention two incidents of physical assault (not serious, in that neither could punch very hard). but, the punching in one case attracted a group of angry motorcycle taxi guys who just assumed the worst about "the farang" and were ready to beat the crap out of me, until i managed to hop in a taxi and escape.

have fun. but, be careful.[/quote]
thats a great idea not taking them to my condo . it would save me a lot of problems. i have already 3 cell phones that part is covered . now i am getting 30 emails every day that i have to answer to but i use the p4p girls method . i send the same email to all the girls but just change the names.
thanks gioto for your sympathy . i might bring few of them to your sport bar .
i will keep you, guys posted .

Love Sex 22,

I also spiced up my recent trip with a few online dates and had good fun - but also a lot of work - with them. From my experience, anything is on offer on those websites. You have the gold-diggers, you have the desperate ones, and you also have some genuine Thai ladies looking for a match. If you spend a couple of hours in the chat rooms, it's relatively easy to separate the wheat from the chaff - and then it's up to you to choose which one you want.

Not all of the ladies will be interested in "good clean fun". Actually, most of them will want more than that, in one way or another. As usual in Thailand, things that are obvious to both sides - such as the fact that each date is just one among many others - tend to be ignored nonetheless. So some ladies who try to monopolize you react very strongly if they realize they can't. To avoid nasty situations, more than one phone number and breaking up the trip into several parts, changing hotel etc. can be useful. As OTH said, some of the girls can become attached more quickly than you may desire. And more often than not, the ones who get attached too quickly are not the ones you would have chosen yourself. Apart from that, however, you can easily have a great time - and save some money too ;)

YY

Hi Guys,

Can someone please advise the web sites that they used to meet these Thai girls. Yes i'm aware of the down side just want to look at some.

Thanks

Q

[QUOTE=Member #2041]This is completely shocking, given the obviously "better" class of women that you only associate with. Perhaps you should try shagging brown-skinned P4P girls fresh off the farm. I've done many dozens, perhaps hundreds of them, and never had this happen. I just pay them and they leave. Charlie Sheen would be proud.[/QUOTE]

That should read, " 'better' class of woman that I NORMALLY associate with ". :D However, there are some of those online, too. I was just referring to the worst case scenario of my experiences which represents less than 10% of the 70 or so women I have met online. Afterall, as I've stated before, I met both my GF and Gig online and the two of them are true gems. So, one can meet quality girls online. But, it takes some major searching through the drek to find them. I wasn't looking for a GF. But, I luckily found one by accident.

Back in 2003, I started using online websites like AsianEuro, Thailovelinks, and more recently HotorNot, not to mention Hi5 and MSN Personals because it was something different and initially I thought it would be another and certainly easier avenue to pursue, than my usual route. But, most of the girls, while shaggable aren't my personal cup of tea. But, I'm sure they would appeal to many others. While there is a wide variety to choose from, most still seem to come from Isaan, especially Khon Kaen and Udon Thani (I particularly dislike women from these 2 provinces), and the vast majority do seem quite desperate. Also, the quality has dropped considerably in the last couple of years and there are a lot more P4P, or near-P4P now using these sites, under the guise of being "regular" TGs.

I think for someone just coming here on a holiday, it's a good way to go with the advantage of being able to escape after a couple of weeks, without any lingering after-effects. But, for someone living here, it requires considerably more caution and being much more selective.

[quote=old thai hand]i've been stalked, threatened with a false pregnancy a few times, threatened with a charge of [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123][CodeWord123][/url] and police coming to my condo with the "victim", huge tantrums and crying jags in public, not to mention two incidents of physical assault (not serious, in that neither could punch very hard). but, the punching in one case attracted a group of angry motorcycle taxi guys who just assumed the worst about "the farang" and were ready to beat the crap out of me, until i managed to hop in a taxi and escape.

have fun. but, be careful.[/quote]from what i've seen and read this is normal behaviour for thai ladies outside the p4p realm. compared to what you describe here, dealing with drug addicted sw *****s in canada is a piece of cake, with p4p tgs being a dream cum true. good luck with your knee operation!

Usually thai girls have the memory of a gold fish. I you do not screw all within the first week nothing will come out of it.

Keep in mind they also get about 100 mails per day. So if you delay, they simple will move on.

I suggest you filter as per your needs. You may ask them to double up - i.e. invite 2 girls at once :-)

But of course they are all 'good girls', so in that sense filtering will work well, as u may end up with just 1 or 2.

Tip: locate ok hotel close to condo or place of work.

JB


[QUOTE=Love Sex 22] ...Out of 60 I got 25 Tel # and the promise that they are all waiting for me...[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Jungle Bluebird]Usually thai girls have the memory of a gold fish. [/QUOTE]Funny quote JB LOL, a Gold fish has a 3 seconds memory (which is why it is never bored in the Small Bowl).

Now, Girls have a far better memory than their male counterparts, so I assume Thai Guys all are close to 1sec memory?

Seriously, in my 3 years working with Thais, I have found that they can remember all the things that they like quite well and will never bother to even think about boring stuff. If something is boring, they will not make any effort to remember, but if there is something they think as important, some are better than me at remembering things.

[QUOTE=PinkPearl]From what I've seen and read this is normal behaviour for Thai ladies outside the P4P realm. Compared to what you describe here, dealing with drug addicted SW *****s in Canada is a piece of cake, with P4P TGs being a dream cum true. Good luck with your knee operation![/QUOTE]

Thanks. It's actually true in P4P, as well. Thai women in general are just plain psycho. In my early days, I had plenty of P4P girls who went nuts in one way or another. The best thing is to simply 3F and get rid of them.

I was just having dinner with a couple of long-time friends here and one, who after managing to extricate himself from his marriage to a very disturbed HiSo TG was lamenting that the girls he's dated since have been every bit as crazy.

Mental illness, afterall is quite a serious problem here. The role models that TGs find in Thai TV programs only exacerbate the problems.

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]Thanks. It's actually true in P4P, as well. Thai women in general are just plain psycho. In my early days, I had plenty of P4P girls who went nuts in one way or another. The best thing is to simply 3F and get rid of them.

I was just having dinner with a couple of long-time friends here and one, who after managing to extricate himself from his marriage to a very disturbed HiSo TG was lamenting that the girls he's dated since have been every bit as crazy.

Mental illness, afterall is quite a serious problem here. The role models that TGs find in Thai TV programs only exacerbate the problems.[/QUOTE]What is 3F, fucking them in 3 holes?

In theory I choose to get rid of them as soon as the deed is done. Any signs they might be a problem...talking to themselves, crying, saying they love me, etc...and they are history, no repeats.

Even though I do not speak Thai, those Thai TV soaps are quite amusing to watch sometimes. I can see from them why TGs are the way they are.

[QUOTE=PinkPearl]What is 3F, fucking them in 3 holes? [/QUOTE]

Pink,

The 3 F's: Find 'em; Fuck 'em; Forget 'em. Sounds like your usual MO, right?

Regards,
Daddy

PP

I know the 3 F's are your mantra. I agree somewhat though. Had a friend years back who swore he screws each of his conquests only once.

But then again, nothing is sweeter then a little affair in the same office or condo building. It's risky yes, but that only adds to the excitement.

On another note - I find the actual in and out bit the most boring part. Getting there is all the fun. Which completely excludes P4P.

JB


[QUOTE=PinkPearl]What is 3F, fucking them in 3 holes?

In theory I choose to get rid of them as soon as the deed is done. Any signs they might be a problem. Talking to themselves, crying, saying they love me, etc. And they are history, no repeats.

Even though I do not speak Thai, those Thai TV soaps are quite amusing to watch sometimes. I can see from them why TGs are the way they are.[/QUOTE]

I never cease to be amazed when the working girls, (some completely naked, and others with their tits and asses hanging out of their skimpy dancing outfits), at my favorite hooker bar in Pattaya, all bow together in unison, clasp their hands in front of their faces, and kneel down to pay reverent homage in silence to a Buddha shrine at the back of the bar, while one of them lights incense sticks and makes offerings of food. The ritual lasts for about 1 or 2 minutes, after which, they all resume their nasty bar girl ways. What a wonderful contrast from the Christian cunts in the West. It’s just one of the many reasons why I love this place.

Another small reason: Most of you veterans will know this amazing feminine fact about Thai girls, but I discovered it only by accident while admiring a pretty girl’s legs shortly after shagging her not long ago. “What beautiful legs you have, sweetheart … so smooth and soft as a baby’s butt” I declared. “Thanks,” she purred. “How often do you shave them?,” I queried. “Never,” she curtly replied. “How can this be,” I wondered out loud. “Thai lady not shave legs,” she explained… “Have no hair.” I examine her legs again, this time closely. She was right. There was nothing but peach fuzz to be seen. No stubble at all. Absolutely amazing, I thought. I’ve never heard of such a wonder. Since then I have found it to be true of every girl I meet. Yes, the wonders of LOS never cease. I love this place.

Regards,
Daddy

[QUOTE=Daddy07] Another small reason: Most of you veterans will know this amazing feminine fact about Thai girls, but I discovered it only by accident while admiring a pretty girl’s legs shortly after shagging her not long ago. “What beautiful legs you have, sweetheart … so smooth and soft as a baby’s butt” I declared. “Thanks,” she purred. “How often do you shave them?,” I queried. “Never,” she curtly replied. “How can this be,” I wondered out loud. “Thai lady not shave legs,” she explained… “Have no hair.” I examine her legs again, this time closely. She was right. There was nothing but peach fuzz to be seen. No stubble at all. Absolutely amazing, I thought. I’ve never heard of such a wonder. Since then I have found it to be true of every girl I meet. Yes, the wonders of LOS never cease. I love this place.

Regards,
Daddy[/QUOTE]

Even better, a few of my favorite Thai ladies seem to have been blessed totally naturally with with only very small patches of incredibly soft, peach-fuzz-like pussy hair - almost as one would imagine it being in a girl's first year of puberty - but I hasten to add that these were fully adult ladies in their 20s, who never shaved their nether regions. I have come to really enjoy this to a degree that it seems like a fetish. One of these thai ladies was my girlfriend for nearly a year, and I had initially thought that this was somewhat uniquely serendipitous to her - although I have since experienced it in two more of the few dozen or so Thai ladies that I have shagged since then, and from the various surveys that I have done in bars where nude go go dancing is allowed, it seems that this may be common to something around 5% of the female population in Bangkok and Pattaya, although the recent trend toward totally clean shaven pussies in go go bars may be biasing the sample. Strictly in the interest of science, of course, I really need to do more research on this subject.

[QUOTE=Daddy07]Another small reason: Most of you veterans will know this amazing feminine fact about Thai girls, but I discovered it only by accident while admiring a pretty girl’s legs shortly after shagging her not long ago. “What beautiful legs you have, sweetheart … so smooth and soft as a baby’s butt” I declared. “Thanks,” she purred. “How often do you shave them?,” I queried. “Never,” she curtly replied. “How can this be,” I wondered out loud. “Thai lady not shave legs,” she explained… “Have no hair.” I examine her legs again, this time closely. She was right. There was nothing but peach fuzz to be seen. No stubble at all. Absolutely amazing, I thought. I’ve never heard of such a wonder. Since then I have found it to be true of every girl I meet. Yes, the wonders of LOS never cease. I love this place.

Regards,

Daddy[/QUOTE]Interesting. You obviously don't live here?

Have a good look at the women's legs next time, not P4P, and you'll be surprised. Yes a small portion of the ladies do not have body hair (or a tiny amount) but a lot of them have and it starts at the moustache.

I have encountered a few girls that would scare even Tom Selleck! And I'm not even talking about the ones that wear short skirts and have hairy legs.

I like them to be as Immaculate as Possible (question of taste). Also, a lot of the ladies in my office complain that the Hair Removal creams are pretty expensive and do not work well.

[QUOTE=NicFrenchy]Interesting. You obviously don't live here?

Have a good look at the women's legs next time, not P4P, and you'll be surprised. Yes a small portion of the ladies do not have body hair (or a tiny amount) but a lot of them have and it starts at the moustache...[/QUOTE]

Yes, I do live here now, but only since October --4 months now.

The girl I was with was not P4P. I was amazed and fascinated to meet any girl without hair on her legs, and who did not have to shave at all. I thought it was unique to Thailand or perhaps Aisa. Now you tell me it's only a small percentage ... I'm crushed. :)

I have since met several girls without hairy legs, but now I am intrigued, and in the interest of science, intend to carry on the survey with each new one I meet. I need a much larger sampling in order to get to the bottom if this matter. :)

[QUOTE=NicFrenchy]Interesting. You obviously don't live here?

Have a good look at the women's legs next time, not P4P, and you'll be surprised. Yes a small portion of the ladies do not have body hair (or a tiny amount) but a lot of them have and it starts at the moustache.

I have encountered a few girls that would scare even Tom Selleck! And I'm not even talking about the ones that wear short skirts and have hairy legs.

I like them to be as Immaculate as Possible (question of taste). Also, a lot of the ladies in my office complain that the Hair Removal creams are pretty expensive and do not work well.[/QUOTE]
Well some a bit of hair and some don't. So Daddy07 was clearly exaggerating a lot.
I haven't noticed much on my current GF from Ubon.
Previous GF from Phitsanulok had a bit of arm and leg hair but didn't notice much above the lip.
Previous GF from Bangkok had none except underarm and pussy.

Once met Thai girl from Issaan somewhere who didn't need to shave her pussy. Only had a little moustache over the top of it. No hair grew each side of the crack. Totally smooth. :p

So in general, Thai girls seem less hairy than Farangs but still varies a lot.

P.S. I don't go for hairy girls either (obviously) :D

[QUOTE=Mick Licker]...Daddy07 was clearly exaggerating a lot. [/QUOTE]

Well... I may be badly mistaken about all Thai girls, Mick, but I surely do not exaggerate.

Only last night I was fondling one of my favorite go-go dancer's legs, (actuallty both of them, which were smooth as silk BTW), and asked her if she shaves them. "No," she replied, "No have hair." The lighting in the bar prevented any closeup examination, but the feel test was negative.

Is my sampling skewed? Did she lie? Does anyone else have knowledge about this amazing phenomenon? I want to know.

[QUOTE=Quickfix]Hi Guys,

Can someone please advise the web sites that they used to meet these Thai girls. Yes i'm aware of the down side just want to look at some.

Thanks

Q[/QUOTE]
Check the Thai/Asian dating websites mentioned by OTH - AsianEuro and Thailovelinks (both operated by the same company) or ThailandFriends - as well as global ones such as Date.com and MSN. General networking sites such as Hi5 and Friendster are also quite popular with TGs.

YY

[QUOTE=Mick Licker]So in general, Thai girls seem less hairy than Farangs but still varies a lot.

P.S. I don't go for hairy girls either (obviously) :D[/QUOTE]Well, I wasn't saying that Daddy07 exagerated, I believe there are a lot of asians that do not have body hair, but my point was that of all the ones that do, few remove them.

The difference with Farang women is that they remove their body hair.

It is a big deal for me, if I see a girl with hairy arms or Legs, it's a huge turnoff. Mayumi @ Akane Chidlom had a pack of hair on her arms.

[QUOTE=Daddy07]Well... I may be badly mistaken about all Thai girls, Mick, but I surely do not exaggerate.

Only last night I was fondling one of my favorite go-go dancer's legs, (actuallty both of them, which were smooth as silk BTW), and asked her if she shaves them. "No," she replied, "No have hair." The lighting in the bar prevented any closeup examination, but the feel test was negative.

Is my sampling skewed? Did she lie? Does anyone else have knowledge about this amazing phenomenon? I want to know.[/QUOTE]
Well Daddy07,
Surely you have met a lot of Thai girls, and "sampled" lots intimately. :D
So it seemed like an exaggeration to say the EVERY Thai girl you meet has virtually "no" leg hair. But I am being tough since not every girl is subject to close scrutiny.
Maybe you never wanted to fuck any hairy ones ;)

My ex-GF had a little arm hair and was easier to see than mine since quite black. She may have shaved her legs. I don't remember clearly.

[QUOTE=Mick Licker]Well Daddy07,
Surely you have met a lot of Thai girls, and "sampled" lots intimately. :D
So it seemed like an exaggeration to say the EVERY Thai girl you meet has virtually "no" leg hair. But I am being tough since not every girl is subject to close scrutiny.
Maybe you never wanted to fuck any hairy ones ;)

My ex-GF had a little arm hair and was easier to see than mine since quite black. She may have shaved her legs. I don't remember clearly.[/QUOTE]

The matter never came to my attention until a few weeks ago when I was laying in bed with a lovely girl and the subject came up. She told me that Thai girls don't have to shave their legs. I examined her legs closely and saw hair but it was only peach fuzz the same as you might see on a lady's face. Her legs were soooth to the touch. I was amazed.

I have been with probably a dozen or more girls since then and checked each one of them for leg hair, just for the fun of it. None of them shave their legs and all told me that Thai girls don't need to shave. I'm sure there must be some exceptions, but I've yet to find one. You're right, I would be turned off by body hair on a woman. I like shaved pussies too and would love to find one naturally bald. What a turn on!!!

BTW -- Your ex gf looks like a sweetheart. I'm betting she doesn't have to shave. :)

Regards,
Daddy

[QUOTE=NicFrenchy]Well, I wasn't saying that Daddy07 exagerated, I believe there are a lot of asians that do not have body hair, but my point was that of all the ones that do, few remove them.

The difference with Farang women is that they remove their body hair.

It is a big deal for me, if I see a girl with hairy arms or Legs, it's a huge turnoff. Mayumi @ Akane Chidlom had a pack of hair on her arms.[/QUOTE]

I thought the French were use to girls with hairy arm pits.

I have yet to see a TG with hairy arm pits. Most TG's I know actually pluck them out one by one. I have seen some TG's with hairy legs usually some office girl on the skytrain or subway.

[QUOTE=Thaid Up]I thought the French were use to girls with hairy arm pits.[/QUOTE]Very funny.

[QUOTE=Richo Stevens]Do you mind explain how you get this girls to do this stuff? I've been chatting around with camfrog for the past two weeks. Seldom any luck at all, as most of them have I'm on invite only, and nobody want to chat with a farang it seems. Please share your knowledge

Thanks a million![/QUOTE]Well, Camfrog is very good in terms of meeting Thai Chicks.

First things first, Camfrog is a Video Chat Program so if you do not have a Cam it is better to forget about using camfrog.

Second, I would advise to upgrade to a Pro Version (I am in the process of doing so) as it really makes your camfrog life easier.

Third, Once you enter a room and find a girl you would like to get in contact with, send her compliments and cute Smilies via the Main Board.

Telling these Girls "Big Cock on Cam" or "Private Show by German stud" will not work, for one, they will probably think you are a dickhead and they also probably get these invitations 10 times per hour.

Be Gentleman-like, do not be obsessed writing her name 50 times in a period of 5 minutes, this will freak her out along with all other Room members and you will most probably end up getting kicked out.

Before any response from the girl, they will generally look at your cam first to see who you are so, again, if you do not have a Cam it is better to forget about using camfrog (as a mean to get phone numbers).

If the lady likes what she sees, she will reply on the main Forum, with Basic Questions (who you are, if you are in Thailand...), from this point on, you can suggest her to take it to IM (Camfrog's instant Private Messenger); I never initiate IMs, I always ask the girls to IM me and leave it up to them, I think they like the fact that I am not pressuring them and usually IM me.

Some girls will also be in 4 or 5 IM conversations at the same time so be patient.

Your goal in an IM chat is to be funny and intriguing, Thai girls are easily bored and you need to keep the chat simple and as entertaining as possible so she does not leave.

Once she is locked in, start talking kinky and see where it goes, some girls will be up for it and others won't, ask if you can give her your Mobile and see what she says, if she is positive then she is serious about meeting.

Also, as a rule, I never answer IMs from Girls with No Cams. I like to see who I am talking to as there are a lot of LBs and Gays using Camfrog.

Last tip I can give you: if you want to be noticed by the girls it is best you stay in the rooms with a low amount of people, the more people the less chances you have and on the Thailang Forums, speaking English is very hard for the girls.

Good luck and let me know how it went.

Richo,

Look at these 2 reports (same Experience from a Camfrog girl), they will give you an idea of the potential Camfrog Has.

[url]http://www.internationalsexguide.info/forum/showpost.php?p=698028&postcount=974[/url]
[url]http://www.internationalsexguide.info/forum/showpost.php?p=698030&postcount=975[/url]

[QUOTE=Daddy07]

BTW -- Your ex gf looks like a sweetheart. I'm betting she doesn't have to shave. :)

Regards,
Daddy[/QUOTE]
Well my ex did at least keep er bush trimmed nicely.
She was a DATY lover so obviously saw fit to assist by keeping trimmed.
Gave her a vibe too but she was always too shy to discuss it or
to let me see her use it.

Current GF is more wayward. She is O.K. with me watching her use the vibe.
Even wants DATY and vibe inside her at the same time.
She can't say quiet when worked up as well.

I do prefer bald pussy myself as well but mostly only P4P girls are willing to put in the almost daily shaving. There is plenty of bald pussy at Suzi-wong and I like that.
When I took bi-girls from Suzi-wong they shaved their pussies before the session in order to get maximum enjoyment from the mutual pussy licking.
Now that is thoughtful.

I don't really go for "big bush" that can often be found in very amateur Thai girls.
One service waitress from Doll's House was like that. Long bush and never been with a customer. The down side was she didn't know much about fucking or blow job technique so on the 2nd time I was totally bored with her.
First time she was better I think only because we were both drunk, although she more than me.

Nic

Be careful. You may suddenly look into the face of one of your employees :-)

JB


[QUOTE=NicFrenchy]Well, Camfrog is very good in terms of meeting Thai Chicks.

First things first, Camfrog is a Video Chat Program so if you do not have a Cam it is better to forget about using camfrog.

Second, I would advise to upgrade to a Pro Version (I am in the process of doing so) as it really makes your camfrog life easier.

Third, Once you enter a room and find a girl you would like to get in contact with, send her compliments and cute Smilies via the Main Board.

Telling these Girls "Big Cock on Cam" or "Private Show by German stud" will not work, for one, they will probably think you are a dickhead and they also probably get these invitations 10 times per hour.

Be Gentleman-like, do not be obsessed writing her name 50 times in a period of 5 minutes, this will freak her out along with all other Room members and you will most probably end up getting kicked out.

Before any response from the girl, they will generally look at your cam first to see who you are so, again, if you do not have a Cam it is better to forget about using camfrog (as a mean to get phone numbers).

If the lady likes what she sees, she will reply on the main Forum, with Basic Questions (who you are, if you are in Thailand...), from this point on, you can suggest her to take it to IM (Camfrog's instant Private Messenger); I never initiate IMs, I always ask the girls to IM me and leave it up to them, I think they like the fact that I am not pressuring them and usually IM me.

Some girls will also be in 4 or 5 IM conversations at the same time so be patient.

Your goal in an IM chat is to be funny and intriguing, Thai girls are easily bored and you need to keep the chat simple and as entertaining as possible so she does not leave.

Once she is locked in, start talking kinky and see where it goes, some girls will be up for it and others won't, ask if you can give her your Mobile and see what she says, if she is positive then she is serious about meeting.

Also, as a rule, I never answer IMs from Girls with No Cams. I like to see who I am talking to as there are a lot of LBs and Gays using Camfrog.

Last tip I can give you: if you want to be noticed by the girls it is best you stay in the rooms with a low amount of people, the more people the less chances you have and on the Thailang Forums, speaking English is very hard for the girls.

Good luck and let me know how it went.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Jungle Bluebird]Nic

Be careful. You may suddenly look into the face of one of your employees :-)

JB[/QUOTE]Mmmmhhh, I think you may be right! I never really thought about it but this could very well happen. No worries, I'll deal with it when it comes.

Or worse Nic

They also take snaphots or copy/film your online activities. Next thing you know your pic goes out in a mass MSN CC mailer.

Don't think it's worth the risk - after all you live here.

JB



[QUOTE=NicFrenchy]Mmmmhhh, I think you may be right! I never really thought about it but this could very well happen. No worries, I'll deal with it when it comes.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Jungle Bluebird]Or worse Nic

They also take snaphots or copy/film your online activities. Next thing you know your pic goes out in a mass MSN CC mailer.

Don't think it's worth the risk - after all you live here.

JB[/QUOTE]Not really. When I show myself (naked it is), It is always on 1 on 1 video Chat ;)

I did strip once because a Chick asked me, but I made sure to Logoff and invite her to a remote room of my choice where I never showed my face and logged in as another Username. I am indeed careful.

[QUOTE=Mick Licker]I do prefer bald pussy myself [/QUOTE]

I really like pussy. Hairless or hairy. What I don't like is a pussy that was shave three days ago. Ouch. I don't cause that irritation while DATY (I have a nice soft beard) and I don;t like to get the sandpaper treatment in return.

My current ladyfriend keeps it trimmed nicely, just long enough to be soft. And, like most Thai girls I've known, has no hair on her legs and plucks the hair from her pits. OUch!

Once, someone told me there are ethnic Burmese women who simply do not grow hair in their crotch. I could enjoy that.

Many years ago, I dated a Sri Lankan woman who only grew a couple of dozen hairs on her ****. She tended to pluck them rather than shave. Aren't girls fascinating?

[QUOTE=Animby] ... And, like most Thai girls I've known, has no hair on her legs... [/QUOTE]

So... there you have it Mick, from the forum physician, and without exaggeration ... Most Thai girls he has known have no hair on their legs. Amazing!!! :)

[QUOTE=Daddy07].. Most Thai girls he has known have no hair on their legs. Amazing!!! :)[/QUOTE]Curious to know how many are non P4P?

[QUOTE=Daddy07]So... there you have it Mick, from the forum physician, and without exaggeration ... Most Thai girls he has known have no hair on their legs. Amazing!!! :)[/QUOTE]
I am happy with "most". Its not quite the same as "all" or "every".

Animby, I like them with or without hair. Nothing is worse though than smelling pussy :-)

At first you don't notice, but then u glide your hand down there and bang, the revolting smell of dead fish or somewhat close to French cheese (sorry Nic).

Amazing, instantly the entire room smells. Takes multiple washes to get that stink of your hands... So what to do. Stop right there and say..'sorry my dear, your pussy stinks of cheese..'?

Do Thai pussies smell less that western pussies?

JB


[QUOTE=Animby]I really like pussy. Hairless or hairy. What I don't like is a pussy that was shave three days ago. Ouch. I don't cause that irritation while DATY (I have a nice soft beard) and I don;t like to get the sandpaper treatment in return.

My current ladyfriend keeps it trimmed nicely, just long enough to be soft. And, like most Thai girls I've known, has no hair on her legs and plucks the hair from her pits. OUch!

Once, someone told me there are ethnic Burmese women who simply do not grow hair in their crotch. I could enjoy that.

Many years ago, I dated a Sri Lankan woman who only grew a couple of dozen hairs on her ****. She tended to pluck them rather than shave. Aren't girls fascinating?[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=NicFrenchy]Curious to know how many are non P4P?[/QUOTE]
None. Hookers are an entirely different species, with completely different biology to regular girls. ;)

Sorry, just kidding. Couldn't help myself. I once had a client tell me it was a shame that 'regular' girls couldn't do paid sex, because they got periods..whereas hookers didn't get them. (???) Another guy said he wished his wife had whatever 'gene' it is that makes hookers enjoy sex. Both of them were totally serious! :)

[QUOTE=Rubber Nursey]None. Hookers are an entirely different species, with completely different biology to regular girls. ;)

Sorry, just kidding. Couldn't help myself.
[/QUOTE]
Not sure if you misunderstood on purpose just for the joke or perhaps Nic was a little bit brief.

But Nic was probably trying to indicate that the P4P girls were a lot more careful about removing arm and leg hair than the regular Thai girls (who often didn't worry about it at all).

My ex Thai GF had some arm and leg hair (not massive amounts). It did not put me off as was not excessive. On the other hand Daddy07 was claiming that Thai girls just don't have arm and leg hair at all.
Nic was probably trying to indicate that some P4P girls were cheating and secretly shaved or removed the hair but wouldn't admit it.

[QUOTE=Mick Licker]Not sure if you misunderstood on purpose just for the joke or perhaps Nic was a little bit brief.[/QUOTE]
No, I was just kidding. :)

[QUOTE=Mick Licker]Not sure if you misunderstood on purpose just for the joke or perhaps Nic was a little bit brief.

But Nic was probably trying to indicate that the P4P girls were a lot more careful about removing arm and leg hair than the regular Thai girls (who often didn't worry about it at all).[/QUOTE]A LOT of South East Asian women (thai, burmese, philipina, indonesian) don't have to shave their legs. Few of them don't have to shave their under arms. And a small number of em don't have to shave their pussies ever. Because there's nothing to shave. P4P or not.

I've met about a dozen of naturally completely hairless women (adults) most only have a dozen hair down there. Mostly indonesian though, only 1 thai.

[QUOTE=Rubber Nursey]None. Hookers are an entirely different species, with completely different biology to regular girls. ;)

Sorry, just kidding. [/QUOTE]:) You got a smile out of me with that one :)

Here is a beautiful love story;

[url]http://www.pattayatoday.net/index.php?action=show&type=news&id=2823[/url]

Playing with these Thai girls can be a dangerous game.....not for beginners....and sometimes even the experienced can get fu cked in the rear. It appears as though David was not aware as to the system of updating passbooks in Thailand....and of legal documents. Advice to all....Don't do it!!

[QUOTE=Jungle Bluebird]Animby, I like them with or without hair. Nothing is worse though than smelling pussy :-)

At first you don't notice, but then u glide your hand down there and bang, the revolting smell of dead fish or somewhat close to French cheese (sorry Nic).

Amazing, instantly the entire room smells. Takes multiple washes to get that stink of your hands... So what to do. Stop right there and say..'sorry my dear, your pussy stinks of cheese..'?

Do Thai pussies smell less that western pussies?

JB[/QUOTE]

I would say that Thai girls, for the most part, are some of the cleanest and freshest around. Showering...and cleaning "down there"....seems to be ingrained from early childhood. Thai girls are taught that their pussy is "min"(dirty)......so they are always trying to keep it clean. I have had the lowest rate of stink pot in Thailand than anywhere else.

Even the girl known as "Lek" in the previous post.....I am sure, was quite nice smelling....even though she was a rotten, stink'in bi tc h!

[QUOTE=Lover Boy #2]Here is a beautiful love story;

[url]http://www.pattayatoday.net/index.php?action=show&type=news&id=2823[/url]

Playing with these Thai girls can be a dangerous game.....not for beginners....and sometimes even the experienced can get fu cked in the rear. It appears as though David was not aware as to the system of updating passbooks in Thailand....and of legal documents. Advice to all....Don't do it!![/QUOTE]

This scenario is so old it creaks.

I'd be interested to know where he met the girl. If she was as I suspect a P4P girl, the guy deserves everything he got. Just plain stupid!

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]This scenario is so old it creaks.

I'd be interested to know where he met the girl. If she was as I suspect a P4P girl, the guy deserves everything he got. Just plain stupid![/QUOTE]


This is where we differ a bit in terms of our feelings towards a poor soul like "David". To say that "the guy deserves everything he got"....is a bit harsh and lacks some degree of human emotion toward our fellow man. David looks like an optimist to me, a man who found his dream both in a woman and the land he was able to find for development. His dream was to work hard out of the country and bring back stacks of cash to fund his dreams. I think he had a plan to begin with.

A lot of men seek love in all the wrong places. Thailand in general might be one of those places. With it's mix of beautiful, available women....an air of business opportunity at the surface and an antiquated, nationalistic, racist policy towards land ownership, the chemical components are all present for a complete cluster fu ck. If you use a solicitor to purchase land, you are immediately forced into what amounts to an illegal transaction (nominee corporation)...or you end up with a Thai partner and a land lease for 30 years (even though some well respected Thai officials argue that only 20 year leases are enforceable under "Thai law"). So, you start out with a mess before you even get started.

Everyone wants to be loved......whether you have a suspicion that the girl was P4P or not, isn't really germaine...this girl was David's love and he was happy at some point in all of this. This love defined his life, because he was willing to work out of Thailand to bring money back and communicate with his partner regularly. This situation was the most important thing to him. He must have been shattered when the rip off became apparent. I suspect that some level of this (including intoxication) is a primary reason for a lot of farang flyers out the windows of high rises in Jomtien that we all read about from time to time.

When you say that he was "just plain stupid!", on the face of it that looks true. However, love and dreams make people do stupid things. There are armies of men out there who don't read posts on this forum, don't read local newspapers and are clueless as to what goes on. They get led around like the cattle with rings in their noses that one can see in any Thai rural area. They are in love and have a dream. They are not the kind of guys who do "due dilligence" when buying investments in the share and securities markets either. They usually lose their money on these investments too. It is really not stupidity as such, I think it is a version of hopeing for the best by people who do not have the mindset to research everything to death. There are many people who have a dream and plod on......especially when love and a change of lifestyle are components. These guys do get fu cked in Thailand because it is a treacherous place to those who do not know what the game is and how it is played. For a person to succeed here, you have be calculated, not research averse and strong when the time comes to take back a situation that has gone wrong. A lot of people are not like this and they are playing with fire as a result. I think stupidity is a simplistic term to describe a complicated psychological, cultural, political and at times, criminal force which all act upon initial naïveté.

I think that David deserved to find his dream and be successful (if he was a true chai-dee)...the girl obviously believed that she deserved all his money and to be done with him. It appears as though their goals were at the opposite ends of the spectrum.

My reason for posting the initial story was to display the kind of things that go on out there in Thailand and in other places too. What makes these things worse in Thailand is that you are faced with a police and legal system that looks at you as a farang soi dog. When you study the laws here, it almost looks like the government and legislators start out with a plan to bring money and investment potential to girls and their Thai male cohorts who are adept at embezzlement and common thievery. If you don't understand how this game is played, you lose, simple as that.

If you don't have the time to know what the game is and learn how to play.....Don't do it!! You will lose your money and your "love" for sure.

[QUOTE=Jungle Bluebird]Nothing is worse though than smelling pussy :-)
... So what to do. Stop right there and say..'sorry my dear, your pussy stinks of cheese..'?
Do Thai pussies smell less that western pussies?JB[/QUOTE]

Bluebird, Once upon a time I was working in an ER when a woman came in complaining of abdominal cramping. The nurse decided I would want to do a pelvic exam on the patient and took her into an examination room to get her ready. When I showed up, the nurse was standing outside, looking green and warning me of the worst smells of my life. You get used to these things in an Emergency Room. She wasn't used to this smell, though.

We both put on masks, treated the filthiest vagina I've ever encountered and then admitted her to the gynecology ward - who immediately removed our names from their Christmas card list. That was nasty. Took housekeeping hours to get the smell out.

The thing is, though, the pussy has a wonderful natural ability to keep itself clean. It takes really bad personal hygiene (or a disease, of course) to make a pussy smell bad. Asian women are generally taught from a very early age that the vagina is unclean so they take very good care of it. It gets washed frequently. So you're unlikely to find one that smells UNLESS it's sick.

So, in answer to your question: "So what to do. Stop right there and say..'sorry my dear, your pussy stinks of cheese..'?" Yes. Stop. It's already sick. Don't make it sicker. Don't make yourself sick. Quit. Stop. Get dressed. Remember you have an important appointment in Chicago. Get the hell out. If you've got the balls, tell her why you've stopped. Maybe she'll go see a doctor.

By the way, let's assume you someday get a long term girlfriend or even a wife. Do not assume by encouraging her to douche frequently that you will have many years of happy, smell free, dining at the Y. Frequent douching will overcome the natural cleaning ability of the pussy and make it more likely to get sick sometime.

Happy Smells.

[QUOTE=Animby]...
and then admitted her to the gynecology ward - who immediately removed our names from their Christmas card list.
...
Remember you have an important appointment in Chicago.
...
[/QUOTE]Animby,

LOL. Excellent post!


Giotto

Animby

Ok, so things could get worse.

But, are some women blessed with a more neutral odor than others?

JB




[QUOTE=Animby]Bluebird, Once upon a time I was working in an ER when a woman came in complaining of abdominal cramping. The nurse decided I would want to do a pelvic exam on the patient and took her into an examination room to get her ready. When I showed up, the nurse was standing outside, looking green and warning me of the worst smells of my life. You get used to these things in an Emergency Room. She wasn't used to this smell, though.

We both put on masks, treated the filthiest vagina I've ever encountered and then admitted her to the gynecology ward - who immediately removed our names from their Christmas card list. That was nasty. Took housekeeping hours to get the smell out.

The thing is, though, the pussy has a wonderful natural ability to keep itself clean. It takes really bad personal hygiene (or a disease, of course) to make a pussy smell bad. Asian women are generally taught from a very early age that the vagina is unclean so they take very good care of it. It gets washed frequently. So you're unlikely to find one that smells UNLESS it's sick.

So, in answer to your question: "So what to do. Stop right there and say..'sorry my dear, your pussy stinks of cheese..'?" Yes. Stop. It's already sick. Don't make it sicker. Don't make yourself sick. Quit. Stop. Get dressed. Remember you have an important appointment in Chicago. Get the hell out. If you've got the balls, tell her why you've stopped. Maybe she'll go see a doctor.

By the way, let's assume you someday get a long term girlfriend or even a wife. Do not assume by encouraging her to douche frequently that you will have many years of happy, smell free, dining at the Y. Frequent douching will overcome the natural cleaning ability of the pussy and make it more likely to get sick sometime.

Happy Smells.[/QUOTE]

. . . and truths such as these rise up before our eyes like a beautiful apparition, filling our hearts with the hope of a siren's song.

We do not hear the sound of splintering wood, nor do we feel the sharp sting of salt water in our eyes until the last moment of our last breath, high up on the cliffs of the heart we see the obscenity laughing.

Sinking into our fateful abyss, we fight the pain of our stinging lungs while struggling for a final glimpse of what seemed corporal, melting as a breath into a torrent wind of truth.

[QUOTE=Pattaya Today Newspaper]David was left to stare at the worthless pieces of paper for a moment before asking if they could charge her with forgery. The solicitor replied it would be very hard to prove she was the one who forged the signatures and in any case, the documents were not legal. Until properly witnessed and notarized, they were simply pieces of paper and anyone could write what they like on them. Technically, it was illegal for a Thai to purchase land on behalf of a foreigner but since no land was purchased, no crime was committed.[/QUOTE]

I can certainly feel a bit of sorrow and sympathy for Dave.

But on the other hand, in this case, I feel I must side with OTH.

[QUOTE=Pattaya Today Newspaper]David brought his savings with him and they deposited it all in a special savings account Lek had opened for that purpose.[/QUOTE]

Come on Dave! Bank accounts work the same way everywhere! I am married to a Thai woman and we have a joint bank account together, but do you think I am so stupid that I would actually put my SAVINGS in there?

poster

[QUOTE=Lover Boy #2]This is where we differ a bit in terms of our feelings towards a poor soul like "David". To say that "the guy deserves everything he got"....is a bit harsh and lacks some degree of human emotion toward our fellow man. David looks like an optimist to me, a man who found his dream both in a woman and the land he was able to find for development. His dream was to work hard out of the country and bring back stacks of cash to fund his dreams. I think he had a plan to begin with.

A lot of men seek love in all the wrong places. Thailand in general might be one of those places. With it's mix of beautiful, available women....an air of business opportunity at the surface and an antiquated, nationalistic, racist policy towards land ownership, the chemical components are all present for a complete cluster fu ck. If you use a solicitor to purchase land, you are immediately forced into what amounts to an illegal transaction (nominee corporation)...or you end up with a Thai partner and a land lease for 30 years (even though some well respected Thai officials argue that only 20 year leases are enforceable under "Thai law"). So, you start out with a mess before you even get started.

Everyone wants to be loved......whether you have a suspicion that the girl was P4P or not, isn't really germaine...this girl was David's love and he was happy at some point in all of this. This love defined his life, because he was willing to work out of Thailand to bring money back and communicate with his partner regularly. This situation was the most important thing to him. He must have been shattered when the rip off became apparent. I suspect that some level of this (including intoxication) is a primary reason for a lot of farang flyers out the windows of high rises in Jomtien that we all read about from time to time.

When you say that he was "just plain stupid!", on the face of it that looks true. However, love and dreams make people do stupid things. There are armies of men out there who don't read posts on this forum, don't read local newspapers and are clueless as to what goes on. They get led around like the cattle with rings in their noses that one can see in any Thai rural area. They are in love and have a dream. They are not the kind of guys who do "due dilligence" when buying investments in the share and securities markets either. They usually lose their money on these investments too. It is really not stupidity as such, I think it is a version of hopeing for the best by people who do not have the mindset to research everything to death. There are many people who have a dream and plod on......especially when love and a change of lifestyle are components. These guys do get fu cked in Thailand because it is a treacherous place to those who do not know what the game is and how it is played. For a person to succeed here, you have be calculated, not research averse and strong when the time comes to take back a situation that has gone wrong. A lot of people are not like this and they are playing with fire as a result. I think stupidity is a simplistic term to describe a complicated psychological, cultural, political and at times, criminal force which all act upon initial naïveté.

I think that David deserved to find his dream and be successful (if he was a true chai-dee)...the girl obviously believed that she deserved all his money and to be done with him. It appears as though their goals were at the opposite ends of the spectrum.

My reason for posting the initial story was to display the kind of things that go on out there in Thailand and in other places too. What makes these things worse in Thailand is that you are faced with a police and legal system that looks at you as a farang soi dog. When you study the laws here, it almost looks like the government and legislators start out with a plan to bring money and investment potential to girls and their Thai male cohorts who are adept at embezzlement and common thievery. If you don't understand how this game is played, you lose, simple as that.

If you don't have the time to know what the game is and learn how to play.....Don't do it!! You will lose your money and your "love" for sure.[/QUOTE]

There just too many of these stories about Thailand and the ladies of the night floating around for a person to miss them sorry.

Take it sleazy

[QUOTE=Animby]
The thing is, though, the pussy has a wonderful natural ability to keep itself clean. It takes really bad personal hygiene (or a disease, of course) to make a pussy smell bad. Asian women are generally taught from a very early age that the vagina is unclean so they take very good care of it. It gets washed frequently. So you're unlikely to find one that smells UNLESS it's sick.
[/QUOTE]
Animby,

One thing that puzzles me. Some of my GFs had no detectable odour when it was their period. On the other hand I have met girls having a period that were so rank, while still fully clothed, that I almost feinted.
I do have a big and sensitive nose.

Does a foul smell during a period mean something is drastically wrong?

A little bit of period blood doesn't freak me out assuming I am protected, unless it smells real bad.
Mostly Thai girls will not have sex during their periods (unless unexpected) where as western women ofetn will.
Do Thai girls really think we can be a hermit for nearly a week?
That was a "retoracle" question (if I could spell it right) :)

Mick

[QUOTE=Mick Licker]I have met girls having a period that were so rank, while still fully clothed, that I almost feinted.[/QUOTE]Mick, how many times Have I told you to stay off the Calcutta Streets?

Serioulsy, your comment grossed me out, she would smell while fully clothed? wow!

[QUOTE=NicFrenchy]Mick, how many times Have I told you to stay off the Calcutta Streets?

Serioulsy, your comment grossed me out, she would smell while fully clothed? wow![/QUOTE]
One was Farang, and another was half Thai - half Jamaican (so she said).

As I said, I am very sensitive to strong body odours, and some people sure have it.
But a bit of blood from a period suddenly arriving unexpectedly doesn't freak me out if there is no stink.

I told a work mate he was a "bit on the nose" at times once (actually he was putrid at times), and all this summer he has been fantastically improved. All my work mates have congratulated me for having the balls to tell him. Don't know what action he took, but improvement has been massive.

[quote=jungle bluebird]but, are some women blessed with a more neutral odor than others?jb[/quote]

try this experiment: go out and eat a pound of asparagus. tomorrow, give your [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord109][CodeWord109][/url] a sniff.

a healthy vagina will smell very much like what the woman eats. if she eats a lot of spicy curry, so will you.

neutral? what you find neutral, a thai man mind find tasteless.

hey, it works two ways, you know: when your lady deigns to a cim experience, she'll find it tastes a lot like stale beer and cigarettes. good reasons to quit smoking and tank up on oj.

had a girlfriend in new york once. almost every week we'd go out for thai food. probably how i grew to have a taste for day-old panaeng muu!

[QUOTE=Mick Licker]Some of my GFs had no detectable odour when it was their period. On the other hand I have met girls having a period that were so rank, while still fully clothed, that I almost feinted.
Does a foul smell during a period mean something is drastically wrong?[/QUOTE]

Well, Mick, I'm not a gynecologist or an endocrinologist. Just an enthusiastic GP. But I can tell you this: when the period arrives or when they ovulate, women's hormones undergo some major, rapid changes. Personally, I am very sensitive to the ketones many women produce when they ovulate. I can smell their breath a block away! Healthy women produce a whole range of volatile chemicals that are expelled in their breath. Perhaps this is what you're smelling.

Other than that, I wrote earlier about the effects of diet on the odors. Many women get cravings during their cycles and quite a few forget to keep drinking fluids. So, if you get a strong smell from foods eaten and combine it with concentration of the fluids from minor dehydration, you could get some nasty smells without being sick.

However, so strong you nearly fainted just standing nearby? Do you know for a fact she didn't smell equally bad a week earlier? Sounds like a hygiene problem to me.

[QUOTE=Animby]Well, Mick, I'm not a gynecologist or an endocrinologist. Just an enthusiastic GP. But I can tell you this: when the period arrives or when they ovulate, women's hormones undergo some major, rapid changes. Personally, I am very sensitive to the ketones many women produce when they ovulate. I can smell their breath a block away! Healthy women produce a whole range of volatile chemicals that are expelled in their breath. Perhaps this is what you're smelling.

Other than that, I wrote earlier about the effects of diet on the odors. Many women get cravings during their cycles and quite a few forget to keep drinking fluids. So, if you get a strong smell from foods eaten and combine it with concentration of the fluids from minor dehydration, you could get some nasty smells without being sick.

However, so strong you nearly fainted just standing nearby? Do you know for a fact she didn't smell equally bad a week earlier? Sounds like a hygiene problem to me.[/QUOTE]
Well no. These girls were normally smelling nice.
I was even dating one of them. But when I went to help her with her computer program (uni student many years ago) she seemed to have a powerful abnormal smell (she was wearing jeans which was unusual for her - normally dresses). It was not not oral and I assumed it was a bad period smell coming from the pussy. Not a garlic or under-arm type of smell but quite bad.

[QUOTE=Mick Licker](...many years ago) she seemed to have a powerful abnormal smell (she was wearing jeans which was unusual for her - normally dresses). It was not not oral and I assumed it was a bad period smell coming from the pussy. Not a garlic or under-arm type of smell but quite bad.[/QUOTE]

You the really nice thing about being a doctor? You can ask people about these things and, if you do it with some discretion, no one cares. However, for me to make a diagnosis years later, over the internet from an observer (as opposed to the individual) is nigh on impossible. You've made it worse, though. This smell came THROUGH her jeans? Yikes.

I'm betting it was not her period you were smelling but either a vaginal yeast infection or possibly an intestinal amoebic infection.

In either case, I'm betting she's better by now. You should look her up.

Animby;

Hello Dr. Friend. Heh.

Why not bacterial vaginosis? It far outstrips yeast in frequency and has a very distinct 'fishy' smell. Intestinal amoeba would be way down on the list as it would present differently (lots of abdominal symptoms and diarrheah).

Not saying anyone has, but don't confuse vaginosis with an STD. They can occur for a variety of reasons, any of which disrupt the natural vaginal flora.

Gotta get a diagnosis as treating it incorrectly (say treating it as yeast but it's bacterial) is a terrible idea as it will make it worse.

Hitting them both at once and hoping you knock it out is a less bad idea but still bad. You don't want to mess the 'good' bacterial in the vag any more than you have to. Diagnosis takes a few minutes in the right lab.

Conjecture on this stuff drives me batty. "Pharmacists" in Thailand know jack all about disease or diagnosis. Anyone can be an antiobiotic dispenser.

Dr. K

I have a regular gf in Bangkok, who was introduced by a mutual friend. Both are straight regular Thai women. My gf, Miss T, comes from a middle class family, and does not need money from me. However, I have funded her for some English classes. She has a regular job that enables her to pay her bills. I have visited her family, and they are pretty well off, nice house, good business, couple of trucks, couple of cars etc. Miss T shares a house with her friend, Miss U. Miss T also has two other close friends, Miss V and Miss W.

I had met Miss U and Miss V last time I was in Thailand, and I thought that they were pretty well off, both had falang bf, and were independent. Well, that is what I thought, but I know a bit more now.

Miss U had an American bf. She became pregnant some time ago, in March 2007, and the baby was born in December. She says, and I assumed that he was the father, but I can not be sure now. He found her in a karaoke bar, barfined her, and eventually pulled her out of the bar and set her up with a regular allowance. He is about to cut the allowance next month. I tell her that she can follow through with this through the American Embassy, and register the baby as an American citizen, but she will not, which makes me think that maybe the kid is not his, and maybe she was having it off with at least one other falang at the time.

I also believe that she was having other customers while her US bf was not there, and while she was pregnant, possibly right up to September.

When the allowance stops, Miss U plans to go to work in a bar, as a regular bargirl, like before. Meanwhile, she spends all night trawling the net for foreigners, but doesn’t seem to follow through to form any sort of meaningful base for communication, and in the end, they stop. I shot some very complimentary photos, which have increased the number of hits she gets substantially, but nothing seems to have come of it.

Miss V is tall, slim, intelligent, articulate and glamorous. She is studying IT. She has a well respected falang bf, with whom she has lived for quite some years in a very respectable address. Her bf funds her and completely supports her. I thought that this is the ideal story of falang and Thai relationship.

However, now I know that he pulled her from a bar, where she worked as a bargirl. He set her up, took her into his house, turned her into the glamorous woman she now is. But she has two other regular bf. She has taken an apartment nearby so that she can spend periods of time with him, telling the regular bf that she has gone home to visit her mother. Meanwhile, the third bf visits her regularly. Both second and third bf’s pay handsomely. We were supposed to meet up with Miss V one evening, but she texted to say that she has hooked up with another falang customer for the evening and cannot come. The first bf knows nothing of this, and to me he must be blind, or stupid, or both.

Muss W is short, well proportioned and full of bubbling fun. She has a regular falang bf who regularly sends money from abroad. He comes for blocks of time, which she spends with him. She has another falang bf who is closer to home, who she meets when he calls, and is paid for her services. Anytime that money gets a bit short, she heads to Soi 4, Nana, to hawk the fork as a fl. Sometimes she gets calls throughout the day from previous customers, so she flies off to another assignation.

This has had an interesting effect on me. I have no argument with prostitutes, and prostitution. And on this trip, I have used 4 prostitutes out of the 13 women that I have slept with. But when the woman is a friend, like Miss W, I feel protective toward her, and I don’t want her to go out. At least she is honest about her business, and is not being deceptive, towards me and her friends. I have no respect for Miss V, who was given a dream life by her bf, but who is deceiving him, not respecting him for what he has done, and behaving as any ordinary prostitute. I am ambivalent about Miss U, on the one hand sort of supportive, yet I suspect that most of her story is lies, and so I have little respect.

So, there you have it.

Gangles

[QUOTE=Gangles]I have no respect for Miss V, who was given a dream life by her bf, but who is deceiving him, not respecting him for what he has done, and behaving as any ordinary prostitute.[/QUOTE]Nice report Gangles!

You actually bring up a very interesting Subject and I think along the same lines. I am a fan of Massage parlors (Not so into the Bar scene but I indulge sometimes) but it would never even occur to me to start a regular Boyfriend/Girlfriend relationship with them. They are service providers, I pay them to provide me with their services.

Yes I have taken a fair number of "Prostitutes" on random Dinner/Sex Dates but never with the intention to have a stable relationship. It was fun and I always tipped them for the evening.

I know a lot of guys actually "save" these girls from their ungrateful jobs, and if it works out then I am happy for them, but let's face it, once a girl gets accustomed to be independant and shuffle large sums of money, it will be hard to adjust to a "regular" life and sometimes (as in Miss V's case) they have to get money on the side.

I also used to think that Bargirls were fun to take out on dates, but ever since I started dating non P4P women, I discovered they have much more to offer than bargirls... Yes, the sex is not as "professional" but a few of them are learning fast and get better everyday.

Some will say that bargirls are Liars but I am not talking about lies because everyone lies, in one way or another.

OTH was right, P4P, while satisfying and entertaining still can't hold a candle to Genuine non P4P courting, flirting, dating and sex.

Let me tell you something else, I know a lot of girls that will NEVER date Farangs, and the reason for that is because when they are in presence of a Farang people might think she is a "working girl", and we all know how Thais look down on P4P girls as being the bottom of the barrel, having said that, some are ok with it as long as it suits them financially (Family, Friends refusing to admit the daughter works as a "prostitute" and accepting the bullshit work story she gives because money keeps coming in).

Anyway, I like Thailand's diversity, I indulge in both P4P & non P4P and am quite satisfied with this so far. One day I will have to look for a wife and that might go against what other members here think, but I would prefer my future wife to be a Farang and not a Thai (for obvious communications reasons).

Sorry for the long post.

[QUOTE=Gangles]...I had met Miss U and Miss V last time I was in Thailand, and I thought that they were pretty well off, both had falang bf, and were independent. Well, that is what I thought, but I know a bit more now...
[/QUOTE]

A few thoughts on your post:

Reminds me of the saying often found in bargirl-related literature: "you can take the girl out of the bar, but you can't take the bar out of the girl"...

Through my limited interactions with Thais, I'll pose the following:

Notwithstanding the fact that Thai society is as complicated as it is with regards to class distinction based on wealth, education, colour of skin, geographic region, dialect spoken, family name, etc. - a middle-class Thai with a university degree and a well paying job (by Thai standards) as a corporate executive with 5-8 years' experience pulls in about THB 12-15,000 / month. A KTV girl with youth on her side (and a savvy mamasan) pulls in between THB 30,000 and THB 40,000 / month. The latter includes her takings paid by the house on her customers' drink expenditures, her 'sitting fees' and earnings on whatever arrangements she makes outside the establishment. Both figures are based on actual acquaintances (were they kidding?).

If one had to choose between the two, it is not surprising that many would choose to throw their dignity (!) out the window and the line between P4P and non-P4P gets increasingly blurred.

[QUOTE=Raverboy]a middle-class Thai with a university degree and a well paying job (by Thai standards) as a corporate executive with 5-8 years' experience pulls in about THB 12-15,000 / month.[/QUOTE]

I don't know where you got this figure. But, it's way off the mark. Someone with the qualifications you mention would probably make at least in the mid to high 20s and probably well into the 30s or even 40s. A corporate secretary with only a high-school diploma would likely make at least 9-10,000 alone. The girls in my office, none of whom have university degrees make between 12,000 to 18,000.

It's true that the national average salary is still only about 6,000/month. But, that takes in a lot of farmers and unskilled workers making around, 4,000-5,000/month in factories, as construction labourers, or as maids etc. Even a BKK taxi driver makes about 15,000/month.

I personally believe that while there are certainly university students and university-educated office workers who may be freelancing in P4P, even at the low-end (at the Bier Garten, for example), the huge numbers that some believe are doing it is nothing more than urban myth. The actual number is comparatively low.

On another note... The so-called 'stigma' of being seen as a hooker if in the company of a Farang is quickly disappearing as Thailand goes more "inter" as the Thais say and more and more regular, educated TGs encounter Farang on a daily basis at school at work and socially. For example, the number of international programs at Thai universities where Thai students are studying alongside foreign students have increased dramatically in recent years. Bangkok University International College, for example has students from about 40 different countries including large numbers of Europeans and even Americans, Canadians and Brits. Even HiSo bastions like Chulalongkorn U. and Silpakorn U. have increasing numbers of foreign students. It makes for an interesting change to see buxom, blonde-haired Swedish girls in Thai university uniforms.:)

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand] It makes for an interesting change to see buxom, blonde-haired Swedish girls in Thai university uniforms.:)[/QUOTE]You should see the topless Swedish girls with their thongs on the beach here on Koh Lanta! Oh my. Pass the SPF!

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]I don't know where you got this figure. But, it's way off the mark. Someone with the qualifications you mention would probably make at least in the mid to high 20s and probably well into the 30s or even 40s. A corporate secretary with only a high-school diploma would likely make at least 9-10,000 alone. The girls in my office, none of whom have university degrees make between 12,000 to 18,000...[/QUOTE]

hmm... maybe I misunderstood what my 'gig' was saying about her younger sister (ex-MNC employee, now a 'kept' woman), my Thai isnt quite up to the mark! But it was interesting how she (my 'gig') seems to secretly aspire to be her nong sao, saying that 'nong sao bpen HiSo laeow'! (although I doubt one can't simply 'become HiSo' just because you're a kept woman of one) ;)

About the Swedish girls, never mind the thongs, I just wanna see them in the university uniforms! What do they do for the name tags, make a literal translation in Thai of their swedish names?

[QUOTE=Raverboy]hmm... maybe I misunderstood what my 'gig' was saying about her younger sister (ex-MNC employee, now a 'kept' woman), my Thai isnt quite up to the mark! But it was interesting how she (my 'gig') seems to secretly aspire to be her nong sao, saying that 'nong sao bpen HiSo laeow'! (although I doubt one can't simply 'become HiSo' just because you're a kept woman of one) ;)[/QUOTE]

absolutely correct, especially if you're a kept woman. You'd never be allowed to see the light of day in high society. Mia Noi or gigs of HiSo dudes are kept hidden away in apartments, usually off the beaten track. There are loads of them in the condos behind Ramkhamhaeng University where I used to live.

[QUOTE=Raverboy]About the Swedish girls, never mind the thongs, I just wanna see them in the university uniforms! What do they do for the name tags, make a literal translation in Thai of their swedish names?[/QUOTE]

Students don't have name tags. But, if they did at an international school, they'd all be in English. BTW, the uniforms on these Swedish girls are quite snug, if you get my drift. :D

[QUOTE=Raverboy]
Notwithstanding the fact that Thai society is as complicated as it is with regards to class distinction based on wealth, education, colour of skin, geographic region, dialect spoken, family name, etc. [/QUOTE]

It is not only Thai..all over asia there is a class distinction based on caste, skin, wealth, education....

However, everything gets offset...if you know the great queens language English :) ...The power english language has to counter all caste, skin, wealth, education is not appriciated.

Back in India..even if you earn an enginnering degree but are not fluent in english you are looked down, but if you are a cab driver and you speak english even if you are from low caste with dark skin ..you will be welcomed everywhere...

The power english language holds amoung people in Asian society is magical..everything is forgotten about your background..the moment you speak english :)

[QUOTE=Born Loser 5]It is not only Thai..all over asia there is a class distinction based on caste, skin, wealth, education....

However, everything gets offset...if you know the great queens language English :) ...The power english language has to counter all caste, skin, wealth, education is not appriciated.

Back in India..even if you earn an enginnering degree but are not fluent in english you are looked down, but if you are a cab driver and you speak english even if you are from low caste with dark skin ..you will be welcomed everywhere...

The power english language holds amoung people in Asian society is magical..everything is forgotten about your background..the moment you speak english :)[/QUOTE]

What nonsense. Lots of bargirls speak quite good English and they hold no sway at all in society. I should think that actually the ability to speak Chinese, Japanese and Korean carries far more weight, now given the huge influence of these cultures. There are many other factors far more important than simple English ability that determine status here.

[QUOTE=Zarnon]Why not bacterial vaginosis? It far outstrips yeast in frequency and has a very distinct 'fishy' smell. Intestinal amoeba would be way down on the list as it would present differently (lots of abdominal symptoms and diarrheah).
Conjecture on this stuff drives me batty. "Pharmacists" in Thailand know jack all about disease or diagnosis. Anyone can be an antiobiotic dispenser.[/QUOTE]

Ahh yes, Dr K, the whiff test! (Take some of the vaginal discharge, add an alkali and sniff for the fishes...) Clue cells, anybody? Litmus test? I'm not trying to be a Diagnosis and Treatment manual here, just to give some options. In my experience, vaginal bacteriosis doesn't often cause a super strong odor so I probably didn't think of it when I wrote my previous post.

As for my mentioning intestinal amoebiasis, ever smelled the gas emanating from someone with a bad case of giardiasis? The farts are bad, the burps are awful!

Your comments about local pharmacists are pretty much right on. Not just here bit in most of the developing world. I date a pharmacist here. Six years training and she knows very little about the drugs she dispenses. One antibiotic is about as good as the next. Not her but another pharm offered to sell me Cipro when I went in asking for erythromycin for a skin infection. Would have worked. Sort of like a shotgun would work where a flyswatter is needed.

[QUOTE=Born Loser 5]...Back in India..even if you earn an enginnering degree but are not fluent in english you are looked down, but if you are a cab driver and you speak english even if you are from low caste with dark skin ..you will be welcomed everywhere...[/QUOTE]

This isnt the India forum, but... I couldnt help but ask, so you mean if you are from a low caste with dark skin you would be welcome at an audience with a Maharaja?

pffft. Queen's English indeed! Lingering colonial fantasies, perhaps?

[QUOTE=Raverboy]This isnt the India forum, but... I couldnt help but ask, so you mean if you are from a low caste with dark skin you would be welcome at an audience with a Maharaja?

pffft. Queen's English indeed! Lingering colonial fantasies, perhaps?[/QUOTE]

Yep..Now a days, however Maharaja's in India are just a showpiece..equal in todays time..the guy who holds power like in government offices or big establishment or in village community will respect a guy who speaks english..if you speak english...the powerful becomes powerless and everything becomes equal.

Everyone listens to a man who speaks english here..it has a power to make everyone equal.

As OTH mentioned there are lot of other factors, but purely in a language sense for day today activity, getting around and be counted in society...english has an edge over all the other language :)

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]What nonsense. Lots of bargirls speak quite good English and they hold no sway at all in society.[/QUOTE]

OTH, you are making the mistake of thinking parochially again. Bangkok is not Thailand. More than a few former bargirls hold a helluva lot of sway in Pattaya. And most bargirls from the regions hold far more sway and have far more respect back in their regions than if they'd spent their careers working in the local shithole factories or on the local farms.

[QUOTE=Terry Terrier]OTH, you are making the mistake of thinking parochially again. Bangkok is not Thailand. More than a few former bargirls hold a helluva lot of sway in Pattaya. And most bargirls from the regions hold far more sway and have far more respect back in their regions than if they'd spent their careers working in the local shithole factories or on the local farms.[/QUOTE]

Well, in fact you're thinking far more parochially than I. Bangkok is at least Thai and has a rich and varied mix of all the country's culture. But, Pattaya is most certainly not Thai. Pattaya is a perverse anomoly and is hardly representative of Thailand or Thai culture. These girls don't hold sway in the social strata of the culture, which is what I am talking about, regardless of where they are. They may have economic clout in their little villages and have garnered some sort of feigned respect because of it. But, I can guarantee that they are gossiped about and looked down upon by the very same people in their villages, who pretend to respect the money thay have, the gold around their necks and Mom and Pop's new house they erected by spreading their legs. Thais are the biggest hypocrits. So, In the bigger picture, their economic clout and resultant status ultimately means nothing. Within the culture, they are still regarded as the lowest of the low.

[QUOTE=Born Loser 5]english has an edge over all the other language :)[/QUOTE]

perhaps in India. However when I was there (6 months in total), I was surprised at how few Indians spoke English. I can assure you that in the rest of Asia, it doesn't carry that much weight. For example, most Thais could care less about speaking anything other than Thai. The Chinese, Japanese and Koreans are far worse. Despite the large number of English language schools, English acquisition is not increasing that much. I would say that the emphasis, at least in Thailand is on learning the three Asian languages I mentioned previously: Chinese, Japanese and Korean.

Given the decline of the American Empire and the rise of China, 50 years from now the lingua franca will be Mandarin, not English.

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]Well, in fact you're thinking far more parochially than I. Bangkok is at least Thai and has a rich and varied mix of all the country's culture. But, Pattaya is most certainly not Thai. Pattaya is a perverse anomoly and is hardly representative of Thailand or Thai culture. These girls don't hold sway in the social strata of the culture, which is what I am talking about, regardless of where they are. They may have economic clout in their little villages and have garnered some sort of feigned respect because of it. But, I can guarantee that they are gossiped about and looked down upon by the very same people in their villages, who pretend to respect the money thay have, the gold around their necks and Mom and Pop's new house they erected by spreading their legs. Thais are the biggest hypocrits. So, In the bigger picture, their economic clout and resultant status ultimately means nothing. Within the culture, they are still regarded as the lowest of the low.[/QUOTE]

100% truth finally spoken......this is the way it is and the girls know what the locals think when they go home.

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]Well, in fact you're thinking far more parochially than I. Bangkok is at least Thai and has a rich and varied mix of all the country's culture. But, Pattaya is most certainly not Thai. Pattaya is a perverse anomoly and is hardly representative of Thailand or Thai culture. These girls don't hold sway in the social strata of the culture, which is what I am talking about, regardless of where they are. They may have economic clout in their little villages and have garnered some sort of feigned respect because of it. But, I can guarantee that they are gossiped about and looked down upon by the very same people in their villages, who pretend to respect the money thay have, the gold around their necks and Mom and Pop's new house they erected by spreading their legs. Thais are the biggest hypocrits. So, In the bigger picture, their economic clout and resultant status ultimately means nothing. Within the culture, they are still regarded as the lowest of the low.[/QUOTE]

Typical OTH. Everybody Thai from outside Krungthep is from a "little village". Yeh, right.

Please show the forum your guarantees.

[QUOTE=Lover Boy #2]100% truth finally spoken......this is the way it is and the girls know what the locals think when they go home.[/QUOTE]
Care to share your 100% experiences with the forum?

[QUOTE=Terry Terrier]Care to share your 100% experiences with the forum?[/QUOTE]

I read his entire post and from my own standpoint, everything is 100% spot on. I think if you re-read what he is saying...it will ring true to you too.

When (and if) you can ever have an honest/truthful conversation with a TG who works as a prostitute, she will tell you how she feels upon returning to her village. These people are not stupid for the most part. They know that everyone knows they have been a pin cushion for the time of their absence and they even feel that everyone hates them because of what they have done.

I have personal experiences drenched in tears and it is too painful to recount them right now.


Originally Posted by Old Thai Hand
Well, in fact you're thinking far more parochially than I. Bangkok is at least Thai and has a rich and varied mix of all the country's culture. But, Pattaya is most certainly not Thai. Pattaya is a perverse anomoly and is hardly representative of Thailand or Thai culture. These girls don't hold sway in the social strata of the culture, which is what I am talking about, regardless of where they are. They may have economic clout in their little villages and have garnered some sort of feigned respect because of it. But, I can guarantee that they are gossiped about and looked down upon by the very same people in their villages, who pretend to respect the money thay have, the gold around their necks and Mom and Pop's new house they erected by spreading their legs. Thais are the biggest hypocrits. So, In the bigger picture, their economic clout and resultant status ultimately means nothing. Within the culture, they are still regarded as the lowest of the low.

[QUOTE=Lover Boy #2]I read his entire post and from my own standpoint, everything is 100% spot on. I think if you re-read what he is saying...it will ring true to you too.

When (and if) you can ever have an honest/truthful conversation with a TG who works as a prostitute, she will tell you how she feels upon returning to her village. These people are not stupid for the most part. They know that everyone knows they have been a pin cushion for the time of their absence and they even feel that everyone hates them because of what they have done.

I have personal experiences drenched in tears and it is too painful to recount them right now.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for a very honest reply. It's obviously a tough subject for you to discuss on an open forum. My (and friends') experiences are very mixed: Girls aren't universally condemned, neither are they widely admired for doing what they do.

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand] These girls don't hold sway in the social strata of the culture, which is what I am talking about, regardless of where they are.[/QUOTE]

So, bearing in mind your opinions on how Thai social strata are formed, let's disregard prostitutes and discuss inclusiveness of mass population from the regions ("little villages") in said strata. Maybe then you will begin to understand why girls who work away as prostitutes are not universally liked or disliked when they return home, and why they usually live quite normal lives (excepting the local gossiper/stuck-up wanker/etc).

[QUOTE=Terry Terrier]So, bearing in mind your opinions on how Thai social strata are formed, let's disregard prostitutes and discuss inclusiveness of mass population from the regions ("little villages") in said strata. Maybe then you will begin to understand why girls who work away as prostitutes are not universally liked or disliked when they return home, and why they usually live quite normal lives (excepting the local gossiper/stuck-up wanker/etc).[/QUOTE]

"Normal lives" is somewhat relative.

In the bigger picture, people upcountry, especially Isaan just assume a girl working in Bkk is a hooker, (even if she isn't) and thus look down on her. They are incredibly judgemental and as I said hypocritical. My GF, who's educated and works at a 5-star hotel is the subject of nasty gossip in her village, simply because she lives in BKK with a Farang. Despite that high position of her family in her village, (or perhaps because of it, because of jealousy) people have assumed all kinds of shit about her and have spread gossip about her. It's far from the first time I've encountered this with a GF from Isaan. So, given that girls who aren't even hookers are often looked down upon in their villages because of their associations with Farang, I stand by my opinion that girls who actually work in P4P are social pariahs, despite the wealth they give to their families. I think it's appalling. But, it's just the way Thais are.

Are all bargirls bad?
I met one, who like an idiot, I felt sorry for after she told me her life story.
She was on the game for 4 months (and still is) , but a sweet girl,not yet jaded.
She has recently emailed me, and we have emailed and texted and my questions have come up with the answers that I am funny, I understand her, and treat her good.
Typical, but I think she may be different.
There's more to the story than can be told. I am a good judge of people and this girl is a keeper, but I am 44, she is 20, and I am married, so wrong equation.

Sponsorship is for idiots, but in anyone's opinion, is it possible to take a BG from the bar and get her a job and maybe supplement her income, without her whoring?
I doubt it, but I don't know.
I wish I wasn't so soft.

Pete

Pete,

The short answer is no, don't do it. The long answer is it depends on an awful lot of factors. But her youth is a huge no-no IMO. I'll PM you in a day or two when I have more time. Don't rush into any decisions.

[QUOTE=Petemcc]Are all bargirls bad?Pete[/QUOTE]

"Bad" is the wrong word to use. Corrupted by circumstances is more appropriate and all Thais, no matter what the source of corruption are incredibly susceptible to it. Given that in my experience, Thais are among the laziest people in the world, they tend to always take the easy way out. P4P, with its short-term gains is certainly preferable over toiling for hours in a factory for the same amount a girl could make in a night. Of course, long term damage to one's life is never ever considered because Thais NEVER plan ahead - part of the Buddhist 'live in the moment' mindset. As to your specific question: Regardless of how unjaded she may be and how good she is, the chances are extremely slim that you can take her out of the bar to work in a "respectable" job and somehow keep her off the game. I'm sure it has happened. But, I've never heard of any successes. So, I think it's quite rare.

Thanks gentlemen

Pete

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]"Bad" is the wrong word to use. Corrupted by circumstances is more appropriate and all Thais, no matter what the source of corruption are incredibly susceptible to it. Given that in my experience, Thais are among the laziest people in the world, they tend to always take the easy way out. P4P, with its short-term gains is certainly preferable over toiling for hours in a factory for the same amount a girl could make in a night. Of course, long term damage to one's life is never ever considered because Thais NEVER plan ahead - part of the Buddhist 'live in the moment' mindset. As to your specific question: Regardless of how unjaded she may be and how good she is, the chances are extremely slim that you can take her out of the bar to work in a "respectable" job and somehow keep her off the game. I'm sure it has happened. But, I've never heard of any successes. So, I think it's quite rare.[/QUOTE]

As a matter of fact, it happened to me. The only time I ever got really involved with someone in the business. Everything possible was positive about her and what she was trying to do (i.e. get out of the business and get a real job so her life wouldn't be ruined by fucking/sucking every guy who she had to). She got a straight job (low pay of course) and seemed to be happy out of the business and living with me. I felt great....like I saved someone. This lasted for 8 months.

Then one day, I had to leave Thailand for a few months......and return to our office in Europe so I could keep my job and the income rolling in.

After a very short period of time, she was back on the prostitute trail. A friend of mine informed me that she was back in BKK (we lived 5 hours from there) and working as a hostess at a well known high end brothel/nighclub. My daily calls were cheerfully answered by her as she exclaimed she was busy working at the office shuffling papers. (reality is she was probably with a "customer"....telling him to be quiet as her tilac was calling)

I had my friend enter the nighclub the next day.......he told her that I had been informed what was going on. She fainted (or acted fainting) in the middle of the floor. My friend left. I did call her to say goodbye. She could not talk as the face loss to me and our friends must have been huge....she only cried....I did not fall for this. I did not ask what was going on....the answer was obvious to me. MONEY #1......and never think of the future.

This all adds up gents, thanks. I have lost count of the number of times I have heard how Thais have fucked up future chances of a nice little earner by being greedy bastards in the present. Up until now I just thought it was stupidity, but from what you gents are saying, Thais really can't think about the future, which is why many of them-girls especially, seem to lose golden opportunities.
I suppose the question is are they capable of being trained to understand that there may be a future, or are they just a lost cause?

Regards
Pete

[QUOTE=Petemcc]...
Sponsorship is for idiots, but in anyone's opinion, is it possible to take a BG from the bar and get her a job and maybe supplement her income, without her whoring?
...
[/QUOTE]Petemcc,

Please read the stories:

[URL]http://www.internationalsexguide.info/forum/showthread.php?t=2554&page=1&pp=15[/URL]


Giotto

[QUOTE=Petemcc]...Sponsorship is for idiots, but in anyone's opinion, is it possible to take a BG from the bar and get her a job and maybe supplement her income, without her whoring?
I doubt it, but I don't know.
I wish I wasn't so soft.[/QUOTE]

Where I'm from the boys have a term for it - the 'KC trap'. KC being the acronym for 'kum cheng', a cantonese term that basically means 'feelings' or 'emotions'. It is precisely your 'softness' that the BG is expert at appealing to and preying on. There are far more of my fellow countrymen who have fallen in the 'KC trap' and who have lost more than they bargained for, than would admit.

What is amazing is the number of P4P TGs I've met who have admitted to having been sponsored at one point of time or another (by sponsors both in Thailand or abroad). They all shared one thing in common - the sponsorship has stopped, for whatever reason. Go figure.

More food for thought: Many of them meet their sponsors in the P4P environment, so its a neverending cycle of: working girl meets customer, customer becomes enamoured ("but she's different from the other BGs!", i.e. he falls in the 'KC trap'), customer becomes sponsor, working girl gets caught for doing this that or the other thing, sponsorship ends, girl goes back to the only game she knows how to play, and it all starts again.

What amount of sponsorship were you contemplating, or perhaps thats too personal a question? :rolleyes:

[QUOTE=Petemcc]This all adds up gents, thanks. I have lost count of the number of times I have heard how Thais have fucked up future chances of a nice little earner by being greedy bastards in the present. Up until now I just thought it was stupidity, but from what you gents are saying, Thais really can't think about the future, which is why many of them-girls especially, seem to lose golden opportunities.
I suppose the question is are they capable of being trained to understand that there may be a future, or are they just a lost cause?

Regards
Pete[/QUOTE]

It's not just "the girls". In business Thai men usually act the same. They show themselves up to be "greedy bastards" during negotiations and rarely ever think of future business, even on deals in the 500,000 Euro region. It is amazing to me. The funny part is that when a new vendor is picked and the current is told what happened they are usually very surprised and try juvenile moves (like the P4P girls) to re-gain the business. Sometimes they are so pathetic it is almost sad. In Thailand, when business is bad.....the Thais raise prices on material, even when the distributor has not raised the price. When you ask wtf is going on, they respond that business is not good...so they have to charge a little more.....then look at you with a silly grin on their faces. This usually pisses westerners off to the max. I guess when business is bad in the bars...they raise the bf and raise the st price too. It is universal in this society.

[QUOTE=Raverboy]Where I'm from the boys have a term for it - the 'KC trap'. KC being the acronym for 'kum cheng', a cantonese term that basically means 'feelings' or 'emotions'. It is precisely your 'softness' that the BG is expert at appealing to and preying on. There are far more of my fellow countrymen who have fallen in the 'KC trap' and who have lost more than they bargained for, than would admit.

What is amazing is the number of P4P TGs I've met who have admitted to having been sponsored at one point of time or another (by sponsors both in Thailand or abroad). They all shared one thing in common - the sponsorship has stopped, for whatever reason. Go figure.

More food for thought: Many of them meet their sponsors in the P4P environment, so its a neverending cycle of: working girl meets customer, customer becomes enamoured ("but she's different from the other BGs!", i.e. he falls in the 'KC trap'), customer becomes sponsor, working girl gets caught for doing this that or the other thing, sponsorship ends, girl goes back to the only game she knows how to play, and it all starts again.

What amount of sponsorship were you contemplating, or perhaps thats too personal a question? :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

This post says it all.....but I wonder why they never seem to realize that their actions is what ends the cycle and then starts the cycle again. I asked the girl I discussed below about this, as she readily admitted to three earlier boyfriends...all Asian. She said she thought it was her bad luck. I asked her if it was bad luck what she thought she could do to change her luck. She said it was all up to Buddha and she didn't have anything to do with it...other then going to the Wat and praying. I tried to explain the things she could do to change her luck....but she didn't understand....I banged my head on the wall.

[QUOTE=Petemcc]She has recently emailed me, and... I am funny, I understand her, and treat her good. Typical, but I think she may be different.

Sponsorship is for idiots, but in anyone's opinion, is it possible to take a BG from the bar and get her a job and maybe supplement her income, without her whoring?
I wish I wasn't so soft.[/QUOTE]

Pete, no one here can tell you if your lady is different. We can only tell you our experience and prejudices. The age difference is truly not important to the poorer girls. It's your ability to support them they care about.

But those lines: you're funny, you're nice to her, you really care, you understand her... sorry, those are lines we've all heard too often. The girls will introduce them at various times in the relationship from moments after you've met until anytime later. But, it's always geared to do exactly what seems to be happening to you here: to think this one is different.

Is it possible to take a BG out of the bar? I'm sure it is. In my experience, I've never seen it. I've seen girls who took themselves out of the BG scene and, at least two of them, are now quite successful entrepreneurs. The key is they did it for themselves not because some nice farang who understands them sent them money every month.

I promise you, your check each month will be added to the others she receives and she will individualize the emailed note of thank you before she goes to work that night.

The most unlikely thing is that she will be your Julia Roberts or that you will be her Richard Gere. We all know men who have married ex-BGs with varied amounts of success.

Is it possible? Yes. Remotely.
Is it likely? No.

You said two important things: "Sponsorship is for idiots" and "I wish I wasn't so soft." Everytime you think about giving her money, I urge you to think about what will happen if your wife finds out and then repeat "Sponsorship is for IDIOTS ... I wish I weren't so soft."

Thanks again everyone for your responses and words of wisdom. As I said in my original post, sponsorship is for idiots, and I wouldn't do it, even if everyone here had said it was a good idea. I was merely exploring the possibilities that she could work somewhere else, other than a bar, if someone were to supplement her income-which I know implies that it would be me, which it wouldn't be.

If it is the case that all Thai BGs are such canaving bitches, then the world is more of a fucked-up place than I could have imagined, but I have no doubt that you gents know from experience that they are just that, and that saddens me.
How someone on the game for now only 6 months, and who seemed so sweet, could be involved in such a cynical deception, is frankly sickening, and very, vert saddening.

As well as being soft, I'm also a pragmatist and a realist and when confronted with commonsense and expert opinion, I tend to wise-up, wake up, and smell the proverbial coffee.

I have absolutely no plans of leaving my wife for anyone (at the moment!) and I know from others' inputs that taking a TG out of Thailand is like taking a fish out of water, and i'm fucked if I'm living in a third world country that treats falang like scum, when I live in a first world tropical paradise.

To be honest, my concerns were more for the girl than me, but that was probably just a moment of egotistical madness, thinking that a 20 years old beauty would want me for anything other than my baht.

When I return in June, it will be my last trip for a long time, bit if I'm still speaking with the girl, I'll treat her well for a few days, go away with her, and use her as a companion. Who knows, the sky may open and a revelation will appear, but I doubt it from what you guys say, so I'll remember that Thai BGS are for fun only.

Regards

Pete

[QUOTE=Petemcc]Are all bargirls bad?
There's more to the story than can be told. I am a good judge of people and this girl is a keeper, but I am 44, she is 20, and I am married, so wrong equation.
[/QUOTE]

I can only chime in with the other guys, but I will add another angle to the debate.

I think one can indeed get a future with a TG met in a bar. This is not the most romantic way to meet one’s significant other and ladies of the night are not typically seen as the ideal wife material, but TGs are human too. They have a hart and they have a brain. In a way, they are somewhat less difficult to read than I imagine a Thai HiSo girl would be because the money the Farang brings to the party is such a big and obvious equalizer.

So yes, you can connect with your chosen one, and there is a chance of success. How big a chance? Impossible to say, but it would also depend a lot on you, mostly on you I’d say. Actually, she is just like many others, and she is only special to you. She is identical to very many of her sisters who venture into the p4p scene to make a living and send money home. Hopefully she is not too mentally and emotionally scarred by it yet. So how can you make a difference? You cannot hope to take her out of the game by sending her money every month. This hardly ever works. Like other shave said, she will keep working and your money will be a complement of income to her. The only way to get her out would be to live with her either in Thailand (preferably) or in your country, which in your situation would imply getting a divorce first, quite a drastic lifestyle change. If you did that, then you might improve the odds of your finding blissful happiness for life in the arms of a world class companion. Anything short of that will likely fail.

The other alternative is to consider her like an occasional girlfriend. Let her continue to work the barlife, spend the time you can with her when you are in LOS, travel with her, be generous but don’t be a sucker. Do not send her money, or at least not regularly. In a few years, you might see her in a different light; your marriage might have ended anyway etc. Give time to time.

[QUOTE=Lover Boy #2]
I had my friend enter the nighclub the next day.......he told her that I had been informed what was going on. She fainted (or acted fainting) in the middle of the floor. My friend left. I did call her to say goodbye. She could not talk as the face loss to me and our friends must have been huge....she only cried....I did not fall for this. I did not ask what was going on....the answer was obvious to me. MONEY #1......and never think of the future.[/QUOTE]

Do you really think she went back to the bar life for the money? Odds are that she was missing the fun and excitement of that life, the daily contact with many other people, .. If money played a part, it might just have been for the gratifying fact of making one’s own money, not depending on a boyfriend to dole out some cash for everything.

The other thing is that Thais genuinely believe that they can act any way they like and that nobody will ever find out, which is odd since in that society gossip is an art and the chance of somebody ratting you out is so overwhelming that cheating on one’s spouse is a dangerous sport indeed.

[QUOTE=Seydlitz]I can only chime in with the other guys, but I will add another angle to the debate.

I think one can indeed get a future with a TG met in a bar. This is not the most romantic way to meet one’s significant other and ladies of the night are not typically seen as the ideal wife material, but TGs are human too. They have a hart and they have a brain. In a way, they are somewhat less difficult to read than I imagine a Thai HiSo girl would be because the money the Farang brings to the party is such a big and obvious equalizer.

So yes, you can connect with your chosen one, and there is a chance of success. How big a chance? Impossible to say, but it would also depend a lot on you, mostly on you I’d say. Actually, she is just like many others, and she is only special to you. She is identical to very many of her sisters who venture into the p4p scene to make a living and send money home. Hopefully she is not too mentally and emotionally scarred by it yet. So how can you make a difference? You cannot hope to take her out of the game by sending her money every month. This hardly ever works. Like other shave said, she will keep working and your money will be a complement of income to her. The only way to get her out would be to live with her either in Thailand (preferably) or in your country, which in your situation would imply getting a divorce first, quite a drastic lifestyle change. If you did that, then you might improve the odds of your finding blissful happiness for life in the arms of a world class companion. Anything short of that will likely fail.

The other alternative is to consider her like an occasional girlfriend. Let her continue to work the barlife, spend the time you can with her when you are in LOS, travel with her, be generous but don’t be a sucker. Do not send her money, or at least not regularly. In a few years, you might see her in a different light; your marriage might have ended anyway etc. Give time to time.[/QUOTE]
Good post mate, cheers.
Petemccc

[QUOTE=Seydlitz]Do you really think she went back to the bar life for the money? Odds are that she was missing the fun and excitement of that life, the daily contact with many other people, .. If money played a part, it might just have been for the gratifying fact of making one’s own money, not depending on a boyfriend to dole out some cash for everything.

The other thing is that Thais genuinely believe that they can act any way they like and that nobody will ever find out, which is odd since in that society gossip is an art and the chance of somebody ratting you out is so overwhelming that cheating on one’s spouse is a dangerous sport indeed.[/QUOTE]
There is a girl who used to work in Long Gun. Got a boyfriend and no longer dances, no longer goes with customers, doesn't seem to do any work, but still keeps turning up to the bar to be with her friends. Seems to miss it badly like you said.

[QUOTE=Mick Licker]There is a girl who used to work in Long Gun. Got a boyfriend and no longer dances, no longer goes with customers, doesn't seem to do any work, but still keeps turning up to the bar to be with her friends. Seems to miss it badly like you said.[/QUOTE]

It's because they're the only friends she can make in this culture, or at least the only people she can feel comfortable with. Having gone into the business, it has changed her forever. Yes, as Seydlitz says, these girls are human. But, they are quite fucked up humans, not merely because of the easy money, but because of a myriad of things, such as the other fucked-up girls, the surreal atmosphere of the bars and the business, the drugs, the customers...you name it - not to mention the secrecy she has to maintain about what she has done and her complete lack of knowing what else to do with her life.

A good friend of mine with an excellent business and well-connected after 12 years still can't seem to move past one ex-BG GF after another. He eventually ends these relationships (and, BTW is about to again), not because of some dramatic event like the girl returning to the biz or cheating, but because of the simple fact that they all do this exact same thing: stop working, end up really doing nothing, don't move forward and stagnate in a pointless existence, are uncomfortable with most people, especially other Thais because of their pasts and frequently return to the bar for social reasons because it's the only place they feel at home. My friend's biggest complaint is that they all end up lacking in ambition and ultimately become boring and an emotional drain because they don't fit in anywhere, but the bar.

The sad thing is he'll probably do it again and history will repeat itself.


BTW, one can take a TG out of Thailand. But, she has to be intelligent, educated and cosmopolitan - not from P4P and not some uneducated farm-girl from the countryside, as are almost all the girls in P4P.

LOL.

A TG who is "intelligent, educated and cosmopolitan" would either be single, or would be married to a rich Thai.

They would not be with a farang, thats for sure.

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]BTW, one can take a TG out of Thailand. But, she has to be intelligent, educated and cosmopolitan - not some uneducated farm-girl from the countryside, as are almost all the girls in P4P.[/QUOTE]

or as some have said "you can the girl out of the bar, but you can't take the bar out of the girl" :)

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]It's because they're the only friends she can make in this culture, or at least the only people she can feel comfortable with. Having gone into the business, it has changed her forever. Yes, as Seydlitz says, these girls are human. But, they are quite fucked up humans, not merely because of the easy money, but because of a myriad of things, such as the other fucked-up girls, the surreal atmosphere of the bars and the business, the drugs, the customers...you name it - not to mention the secrecy she has to maintain about what she has done and her complete lack of knowing what else to do with her life.

A good friend of mine with an excellent business and well-connected after 12 years still can't seem to move past one ex-BG GF after another. He eventually ends these relationships (and, BTW is about to again), not because of some dramatic event like the girl returning to the biz or cheating, but because of the simple fact that they all do this exact same thing: stop working, end up really doing nothing, don't move forward and stagnate in a pointless existence, are uncomfortable with most people, especially other Thais because of their pasts and frequently return to the bar for social reasons because it's the only place they feel at home. My friend's biggest complaint is that they all end up lacking in ambition and ultimately become boring and an emotional drain because they don't fit in anywhere, but the bar.

The sad thing is he'll probably do it again and history will repeat itself.


BTW, one can take a TG out of Thailand. But, she has to be intelligent, educated and cosmopolitan - not from P4P and not some uneducated farm-girl from the countryside, as are almost all the girls in P4P.[/QUOTE]
OTH,
Maybe a girl has to be intellegent and highly educated to suit you. But this is definitely not a requirement for everyone. Not every woman in the world can be highly educated and above average intellengence.

A good personality is a higher priority. I have known one Thai girl for 15 years in Australia who only has Bor Hok but is artistic and is an excellent Thai chef (never done P4P and previously worked in Hotels) and good at decorative carving.

She actually shows signs of intellegence despite her father forcing her to quit school at a young age to work. She plays Canasta and Dummy card games with skill levels at least equal to myself and probably higher.

But I suppose that you are right in that she is in the minority. She has very few Thai friends as not many of the Thais meet her standard to be a close friend. She particularly finds that the other Thai girls from rich families who came to Aus as students are often selfish types and don't know how to work properly.

When we evaluate girls, we don't check their education certificates, nor IQs. :) Personality, face, body, employment, money are probably all more important.

[QUOTE=Easy2007]LOL.

A TG who is "intelligent, educated and cosmopolitan" would either be single, or would be married to a rich Thai.

They would not be with a farang, thats for sure.[/QUOTE]

I'm sorry. But, that's simply not the case. My current GF is all three. Over the last 11 years I've mostly only dated Thai women who more or less fit this discription. I also have several Farang friends who are also in relationships with Thai women who fit this description. My boss, who's very HiSo, and has a PhD from the U. of California is married to an American. Another Thai professor with whom I work has an Italian BF.

Perhaps you're to be excused because like many Farang, your experience may only be with a certain type of Thai girl and therefore, you simply don't know any better.

[QUOTE=Mick Licker]OTH,
Maybe a girl has to be intellegent and highly educated to suit you. But this is definitely not a requirement for everyone. Not every woman in the world can be highly educated and above average intellengence.[/QUOTE]

"Educated" can mean many things and doesn't necessarily have to be formal education. I had a GF once who only had Mor Hok, but who was very intelligent, a voracious reader and hungry for knowledge. I would consider her in many ways more educated and intelligent than some of the PhDs I work with. I took her to Canada and she loved everything about it and fit quite well into the culture and the lifestyle.

What I was mainly referring to was that a TG who is intelligent, educated and cosmopolitan is capable of surviving much better outside of Thai culture.

Thais at the best of times are very insular and don't adapt well outside their own milieu. So interest in things beyond watching Thai soap operas and eating som tam is a necessity. Most BGs simply can't cope. For example, I've met many girls from Isaan who won't even eat Thai food, let alone anything foreign.

Europe, in particular has large numbers of ex-BGs, who really didn't think ahead and who, as a result are living somewhat lonely, miserable lives with guys who they thought were rich, but who turned out to be ordinary. They are cut off from the life-line of family, food and culture. Most ultimately return home and end up back in the game.

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]"Bad" is the wrong word to use. Corrupted by circumstances is more appropriate and all Thais, no matter what the source of corruption are incredibly susceptible to it. Given that in my experience, Thais are among the laziest people in the world, they tend to always take the easy way out. P4P, with its short-term gains is certainly preferable over toiling for hours in a factory for the same amount a girl could make in a night. Of course, long term damage to one's life is never ever considered because Thais NEVER plan ahead - part of the Buddhist 'live in the moment' mindset. As to your specific question: Regardless of how unjaded she may be and how good she is, the chances are extremely slim that you can take her out of the bar to work in a "respectable" job and somehow keep her off the game. I'm sure it has happened. But, I've never heard of any successes. So, I think it's quite rare.[/QUOTE]Just commenting on some generalisation OTH made - Thais are among the laziest people in the world - and - Thais NEVER plan ahead - part of the Buddhist 'live in the moment' mindset - I would like to add the following cultural observations.

Thailand as a country over the last thousand or more year is and has been a country that is blest by its geographically position. It is rarely afflicted by natural disasters (drought, typhoon etc) and has weather eg rain and heat, that allow ideal fruit / vegetable growing conditions. Most fruit types just grow in the wild. Rivers and streams are everywhere and yield abundant fish and crustaceans. Therefore the pressing need over centuries for the population to ensure that adequate food supplies were on hand to survive unforeseen futire events, such natural diasasters, severe cold winters, mad dictators etc such as China, Europeans societies have had to deal with may have some bearing on why Thais seem so laid back about the future and also about working hard. Tomorrow will take care of tomorrow. It always has in the past and probably always will in the future. Not exactly a "western" outlook on life but it would appear to be an outlook atht is relativel stress free.

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]"Educated" can mean many things and doesn't necessarily have to be formal education....a TG who is intelligent, educated and cosmopolitan is capable of surviving much better outside of Thai culture...I've met many girls from Isaan who won't even eat Thai food, let alone anything foreign....They are cut off from the life-line of family, food and culture. Most ultimately return home and end up back in the game.[/QUOTE]As I am somewhat new to living in Thailand (2 years), I have followed this thread with interest and I tend to agree with most of what has been written. Both pro and con. I am in a close relationship with a lovely Thai woman (not a BG or P4P), who is from the country, (not Isaan, but close).

On my trips home (alone), I often wonder how she might adapt to life outside of Thailand (in the US). I have come to believe that our home life would be fine but life outside of the home, especially in social situations, would be somewhat difficult. Some of it (at first) would be basic language and cultural differences, but more significantly I think that my American women friends would be "too much" for her. They can be an aggressive lot (which is not normally attractive), and possibly would feel threatened (by a demure Thai woman). Without clear discourse, (American women love to talk), they would a hard time understanding why I have "brought her over" to America.

I think that one of the reasons our relationship has been successful thus far is our respective ability and willingness to adapt to each other. I also often remind myself that I am the "visitor" in Thailand and it is my responsibility to listen and learn about the country and society I chose to live in.

As far as finding the perfect mate (e. G. , education, sophistication, class, etc.), I think that this is difficult in any country. Again, adapting is often required. An intelligent, well-rounded Thai woman definitely would do better in the US, but I think she would still miss "home. "

In terms of bar girls. The few that I've met and gotten to know as potential "girlfriends" have been fairly narrow in their thinking, interests and overall appeal. They're fun for a little while but the attraction usually wears thin as their predictability shines through.

[size=-2][b][u]EDITOR'S NOTE[/u]:[/b] [blue]I would suggest that the author or another Forum Member consider posting a link to this report in the Reports of Distinction thread. Please [url=http://www.internationalsexguide.info/forum/announcement-reportsofdistinction.php?]Click Here[/url] for more information.[/blue][/size]

[QUOTE=Sfifred]Not exactly a "western" outlook on life but it would appear to be an outlook atht is relativel stress free.[/QUOTE]

Your premise is extremely faulty. This isn't 15th century Ayutthaya.

Thais are faced with pressure to compete regionally and globally and simply can't. For example, the Vietnamese (with a similar climate and culture), but having survived decades of war, kick the shit out of the Thais on all levels. The Thais' laid-back, 'mai pen rai' attitude, results in an inability to cope with too much before they melt-down. In a fast-paced and modern world, from which they can't escape, their "good enough" approach to most things makes them ill-equipped to produce anything of real quality. I deal with this on a daily basis. My students, who are the best and the brightest, still pale by comparison not only to students anywhere in the West, but even when compared to those from India, Vietnam, and Korea.

Several studies have also revealed that stress among Thais is extremely high as are resultant suicide rates.

So much for your "relatively stress free" life.

[QUOTE=Fon Tok]As I am somewhat new to living in Thailand (2 years), I have followed this thread with interest and I tend to agree with most of what has been written. Both pro and con. I am in a close relationship with a lovely Thai woman (not a BG or P4P), who is from the country, (not Isaan, but close).

On my trips home (alone), I often wonder how she might adapt to life outside of Thailand (in the US). I have come to believe that our home life would be fine but life outside of the home, especially in social situations, would be somewhat difficult. Some of it (at first) would be basic language and cultural differences, but more significantly I think that my American women friends would be "too much" for her. They can be an aggressive lot (which is not normally attractive), and possibly would feel threatened (by a demure Thai woman). Without clear discourse, (American women love to talk), they would a hard time understanding why I have "brought her over" to America.

I think that one of the reasons our relationship has been successful thus far is our respective ability and willingness to adapt to each other. I also often remind myself that I am the "visitor" in Thailand and it is my responsibility to listen and learn about the country and society I chose to live in.

As far as finding the perfect mate (e. G. , education, sophistication, class, etc.), I think that this is difficult in any country. Again, adapting is often required. An intelligent, well-rounded Thai woman definitely would do better in the US, but I think she would still miss "home. "

In terms of bar girls. The few that I've met and gotten to know as potential "girlfriends" have been fairly narrow in their thinking, interests and overall appeal. They're fun for a little while but the attraction usually wears thin as their predictability shines through.reportsofdistinction.[/QUOTE]

good post. Yes anyone, even someone who is open-minded, sophisticated and educated can get homesick. But, the issue is one of adaptability. The type of girl to which I refer has often been to other countries and does at least have some semblance of understanding of life outside of Thailand. An up-country girl, even one not in P4P is probably not a suitable candidate to take to your home country. Often, I have found that a lot of them aren't even comfortable in Bangkok and much prefer their village. So, why some guys think they can take one home and it will work out is beyond me.

[QUOTE=Seydlitz]Do you really think she went back to the bar life for the money? Odds are that she was missing the fun and excitement of that life, the daily contact with many other people, .. If money played a part, it might just have been for the gratifying fact of making one’s own money, not depending on a boyfriend to dole out some cash for everything.

The other thing is that Thais genuinely believe that they can act any way they like and that nobody will ever find out, which is odd since in that society gossip is an art and the chance of somebody ratting you out is so overwhelming that cheating on one’s spouse is a dangerous sport indeed.[/QUOTE]

.....very interesting thoughts. She didn't work in a bar....it is a high end brothel in BKK....she was a hostess, but also took on customers, mostly Japanese and Korean. I do agree that she was missing the fun and excitement, especially when you consider that she obtained a very low paying office job (5,000 B/month) where it was hot in the office and probably no fun at all dealing with the Taipan who ran the place. The daily contact with other people was probably another factor.....she was very close to two girls in the club and one who works near the club...also as a p4p. ALL of her friends were p4p....yet she said 100 times that she didn't want to do this anymore due to the dangers involved (stds and violent customers). She, in fact, started the idea of leaving the profession.....she knew I wasn't happy about her "contacts" (kept making immature comments about the small size of her customer's penis'....which was another childish, silly aspect of her personality).....but she was the one who wanted to stay with me and leave the business....I did not push her into anything. Your sentence about her not wanting to take money from me is very close to what was going on. She was unusual in that she really didn't want money from me for daily stuff.....and when she had to ask as her funds were depleted.....I saw it made her sick. She was trying to build up an account so that when I came back she wouldn't have to ask me for money for shampoo....and I understand that. Your second paragraph is exactly what happened.....when my friend told her the game was over....her brain got overloaded and her eyes rolled back in her head and she fell on the floor. My friend tells me that it all looked very genuine.....she was then hysterical and the girls had to console her.

The whole thing is very sad. She and I were tested for everything possible before we began a condomless relationship......and this is what angers me the most. Maybe I was giving her too much credit for understanding what was going on, but I'm not a guy who barebacks someone I don't trust. Now, with all that has happened, I don't trust her....and I would be wasting my time (and hers) if I continued with her....as my intentions would not be good as far as anything long term.

Well, she is out there.......maybe one night one of you guyz will see her getting into a taxi on her way home and you can score a beautiful girl for all the sexual fun you can think of......but beware......no truth will ever be spoken and you run the risk of being with someone who is fairly artful at the ways of deception. (By way of full disclosure, I gave up mongering after I met her as I felt satisfied by what she was offering....and that is probably why I feel so cheated on here. She seemed to have an extreme low opinion of the "customers"....and seemed to be most happy when she was far from any contact with them. I guess I read this whole thing wrong.....I'll be more experienced next time!!)

Old Thai hand and Fon Tok, hid it right on the mark as far as I'm concern! My wife is from the country Sukhothai Rice fields. Things with her is very simple with lots of common sense build into it. I could never afford to bring her to the U.S. to live and she would never agree to it anyways that is one of the things we have in common so I'm here living in Thailand and adapting to life. She never being on a Airplane let alone a amusement ride I got a Tourist Visa last year for her and we all went and just knew before hand she wouldn't like it. The weather, the food you name it. She was counting down the days to return and on the night we left she called her friend and advise her get the pepper ready! but she enjoyed the experience that she thought was never going to happen.

LBM

Found this research study of Thai migrants in the UK by the Runnymede Trust:

[url]http://www.runnymedetrust.org/uploads/file/EmpoweringIndividualsCreatingCommunity-2008.pdf[/url]

As always, the truth seems to lie somewhere between the extremes of opinion that are oft expressed on ISG. Be warned: Its quite in-depth, and more than a few minutes read.

[QUOTE=Terry Terrier]Found this research study of Thai migrants in the UK by the Runnymede Trust:

[url]http://www.runnymedetrust.org/uploads/file/EmpoweringIndividualsCreatingCommunity-2008.pdf[/url]

As always, the truth seems to lie somewhere between the extremes of opinion that are oft expressed on ISG. Be warned: Its quite in-depth, and more than a few minutes read.[/QUOTE]

An interesting read. But, I don't think it totally relates to the topic at hand. The discussion has primarily focused on a Farang taking a TG to his home country as a companion or more and usually with some sort of lack of understanding of the reality of it all. While I'm sure issues faced my migrant workers are quite similar, the difference is that they usually go to another country (such as the UK, Israel, Dubai etc.) solo and to work. It's also often a temporary thing with plans to eventually return home.

But, issues of culture shock, loneliness and disconnection are the same in both instances.

I certainly agree with the missing fun/entertainment aspect as one reason for girls to return to their bars even if they have a sponsor, but major issue was not mentioned up to now: Trust!

In this high season (starting November 2007) we lost 11 girls up to now, stopped working by customers. 4 of them are back already, surprisingly, they lost face towards the colleagues in the bar, usually the girls do not return to the same bar. They start working somewhere else when they return to the bar life.

Only 2 of the girls showed up for entertainment many nights after they stopped, lonely, missing the night life, keeping their social contacts with their friends and "sisters". 5 girls quit, and were not seen again here at Livingstone's (up to now).

One girl (one of our dancers) was stopped working approx. 6 months ago, and she will be back today. The relationship has obviously calmed down, and the money flow is not as expected. She was promised to get a new house at her home village, so she broke down the old one. Now she still waits for the money to build that new house, and waits, and waits - and the family has no place to stay at the moment. That's what she told us - and of course you can never know whether this is the truth or not...

In my experience money and fun are of course important reasons, but trust is more important. Those girls have their obligations in the background, they are taking care of their kids or their parents or both, they build houses in their villages - they need a steady income. But most of them are still looking for the man for all life, and then money does not really count, as long as it is sufficient to fulfil the existing obligations. They want to feel safe, and financially supported.

The girls stop working and agree to a monthly budget which is usually much lower than their usual income from the bar. They "give it a chance", 15 - 20 k a month is enough (still a lot compared to the income levels here in Thailand), instead of 50 k - 75 k they had before (depending on their looks, behavior, success with customers). As long as they believe in that customer, that this man will take care of them and their families, that he has a good heart, that he will give her a future - they will most likely not return to the bar. They will visit their collegues in the beginning sometimes, but then they return to their villages and change their lifes.

When they get the impression that they cannot trust that specific man they will return immediately and start working to make more money. And they will [of course] not tell the sponsor...

The older a girl is, the more experienced she is - the less she "gives it a try". Those girls have already the experience that it most likely will not work, and they don't want to lose time. The older girls usually pretend to stop working, and they have most likely more than only one sponsor.

The higher the "montly allowance" is the faster the girls return to the bar. We had one case in this season in which a customer agreed to pay 60 k a month. The girl was back after 2 months.

If you want to stop a girl working in a bar make sure that she trusts you, and that she believes in a future with you as her boyfriend / husband. That is the key. Plans to move to Thailand or to bring her to your home country. Visiting the family, being interested in their well-being. Once she trusts she stops.


Giotto

[QUOTE=Giotto]
One girl (one of our dancers) was stopped working approx. 6 months ago, and she will be back today. The relationship has obviously calmed down, and the money flow is not as expected. She was promised to get a new house at her home village, so she broke down the old one. Now she still waits for the money to build that new house, and waits, and waits - and the family has no place to stay at the moment. That's what she told us - and of course you can never know whether this is the truth or not...
[/QUOTE]
I heard this one before.
Its usually the girl's fault, I would think. They have no idea of how to get the "FULL" cost estimate. Until she has the full cost safely locked away, obviously the project cannot be commenced, as the guy may change his mind especially when the cost starts escalating and he is getting nothing much in return.

[QUOTE=Mick Licker]I heard this one before.
Its usually the girl's fault, I would think. They have no idea of how to get the "FULL" cost estimate. Until she has the full cost safely locked away, obviously the project cannot be commenced, as the guy may change his mind especially when the cost starts escalating and he is getting nothing much in return.[/QUOTE]

Any farang who gets involved in a construction project of a house in Thailand......soon loses interest. He can't own the land....and therfore doesn't own the house. Unless you use a nominee corp. (illegal)...the house must be in the girl's name. After the farang gets caught up in the construction over-runs (you are 100% right that the average girl has no ability to calculate real cost opposed to Thai bullshit initial estimate).....the money train ends. Just another Thai story of life in the small city.

The may be better suited for another forum in the ISG but I believe my thoughts would be beneficial here. Gentlemen, please consider this when contemplating returning to your native "First-World" country with your Thai lady ("significant other", "significant other/future spouse, or just plain spouse, it is usually immaterial! ).

To not identify particular women/countries (as, in my opinion, they are all "guilty as sin" to more/lesser extent) I will use my "pet" phrase of "Caucasia (ians)" as to mean single/"available" women who inhabit "First-World" Western countries (Caucasia).

Let me first state that, with globalization becoming more of a reality, the situation I will speak about, hopefully, will be less of a problem in the future and, I were the "King of the world" would be a "non-factor" as of yesterday!

I firmly believe that Caucasian women play the old "double standard" reacting shamefully regarding their opinions/actions regarding men who choose the "mail-order bride" route (I know I am dating myself, but please indulge me! ).

The mindset of many "available" Caucasian women is that if, Caucasian men do not "make the grade". That is, for whatever reason (s), we are not "attractive"(defined as being too poor, too fat, too short, too old, bad dresser, "unsmooth" personality"-the list is endless! ) enough to deserve to have emotional/physical relationships with THEM ONLY! For these unforgivable attributes, it is thought by many Caucasian women, we should all die lonely and horny.

Thinking outside this sphere (or, as I like to call it, "the box") is not an option, according to Caucasian women, as we must accept our WELL-DESERVED fate with them "calling the shots".

Bringing a "mail-order bride" back to Caucasia is nothing short of taking the cheap, dirty and easy way out of your intended destiny! The fact that you are happy (now enjoying companionship that you have a measure (varying) of control over and, hopefully, frequent and great sex) does not fit in the equation as you, by not playing by Caucasian women's convoluted rules, have flunked the test!

Congratulations! You have just graduated from being a pathetic "loser" to being a pathetic "loser" who now is on the "A-List" for "Pimp 'n Ho" party invites!

As you intoduce your "main squeeze" around and explain the particulars get use to cold chills, nervous laughs and the fake "Cheshire Cat" smiles. You took the "easy way out" and that is unforgiveable in a capitalistic society that only recognizes challenges and successes.

And I will not even get into the "physical appearance" disconnect as it varies by location.

The Cardinal sin we commit, according to many Caucasian women, is we "quit" the, what I like to call, "Futile Dating Debacle" and, as we all are told, "winners never quit and quitters never win". SO THERE!

It is easy to delude ourselves by thinking that my Thai lady and I will build a "force field" around the judgmental society around us but don't buy it! Unless we live like hermits in a vacuum (no external people interactions of ANY kind). The negative vibes will put a real strain on an already awkward situation ("different" looking lady in a strange/frightening new culture).

Think about it!

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]Your premise is extremely faulty. This isn't 15th century Ayutthaya.

Thais are faced with pressure to compete regionally and globally and simply can't. For example, the Vietnamese (with a similar climate and culture), but having survived decades of war, kick the shit out of the Thais on all levels. The Thais' laid-back, 'mai pen rai' attitude, results in an inability to cope with too much before they melt-down. In a fast-paced and modern world, from which they can't escape, their "good enough" approach to most things makes them ill-equipped to produce anything of real quality. I deal with this on a daily basis. My students, who are the best and the brightest, still pale by comparison not only to students anywhere in the West, but even when compared to those from India, Vietnam, and Korea.

Several studies have also revealed that stress among Thais is extremely high as are resultant suicide rates.

So much for your "relatively stress free" life.[/QUOTE]OTH

Re-examining your statement on Thai suicide rate - please look up wiki: [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_OECD_countries_by_suicide_rate[/url]. While this chart is somewhat imperfect it does question you assertion about high suicide rates in Thailand.

Also I wasn't implying that Thai laid-back, 'mai pen rai' attitude was acceptable, actually I make no judgement on that at all but I was simply trying to show that maybe there are historical reasons for this Thai laid-back, 'mai pen rai' attitude.

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]An interesting read. But, I don't think it totally relates to the topic at hand. The discussion has primarily focused on a Farang taking a TG to his home country as a companion or more and usually with some sort of lack of understanding of the reality of it all. While I'm sure issues faced my migrant workers are quite similar, the difference is that they usually go to another country (such as the UK, Israel, Dubai etc.) solo and to work. It's also often a temporary thing with plans to eventually return home.

But, issues of culture shock, loneliness and disconnection are the same in both instances.[/QUOTE]

You appear not to have read the article properly. It is a study of the [i]general[/i] Thai migrant population in the UK (or, rather, specific target areas of the UK).

The discussion on this thread was about whether or not Thai women can adapt to a foreign culture when introduced to that culture by their farang partners. And this discussion is frequently started by someone asking on here if that scenario can work.

The article contains plenty of [i]actual information[/i] obtained from migrant Thai spouses living in the UK about their perceptions and how they are adapting/coping. And that information tells us that, for the most part, they do adapt, but with plenty of insecurities and difficulties.

So, there we have it. Now we don't have to theorise our preconceptions about why these women will/won't adapt in a foreign culture: We have plenty of facts 'straight from the horse's mouth'.

[QUOTE=Sfifred]OTH

Re-examining your statement on Thai suicide rate - please look up wiki: [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_OECD_countries_by_suicide_rate[/url]. While this chart is somewhat imperfect it does question you assertion about high suicide rates in Thailand.

Also I wasn't implying that Thai laid-back, 'mai pen rai' attitude was acceptable, actually I make no judgement on that at all but I was simply trying to show that maybe there are historical reasons for this Thai laid-back, 'mai pen rai' attitude.[/QUOTE]

You're citing wikipedia as a credible source??? Well, anyway all I know is that over the years I've witnessed an incredible amount of stories of suicide in the Thai news media and the stress of modern life and the high suicide rate are often discussed on news shows here.

[QUOTE=Terry Terrier]You appear not to have read the article properly. It is a study of the [i]general[/i] Thai migrant population in the UK (or, rather, specific target areas of the UK).

The discussion on this thread was about whether or not Thai women can adapt to a foreign culture when introduced to that culture by their farang partners. And this discussion is frequently started by someone asking on here if that scenario can work.

The article contains plenty of [i]actual information[/i] obtained from migrant Thai spouses living in the UK about their perceptions and how they are adapting/coping. And that information tells us that, for the most part, they do adapt, but with plenty of insecurities and difficulties.

So, there we have it. Now we don't have to theorise our preconceptions about why these women will/won't adapt in a foreign culture: We have plenty of facts 'straight from the horse's mouth'.[/QUOTE]

I'll re-read it.

[QUOTE=Lexb]The may be better suited for another forum in the ISG but I believe my thoughts would be beneficial here. Gentlemen, please consider this when contemplating returning to your native "First-World" country with your Thai lady ("significant other", "significant other/future spouse, or just plain spouse, it is usually immaterial! ).

To not identify particular women/countries (as, in my opinion, they are all "guilty as sin" to more/lesser extent) I will use my "pet" phrase of "Caucasia (ians)" as to mean single/"available" women who inhabit "First-World" Western countries (Caucasia).

Let me first state that, with globalization becoming more of a reality, the situation I will speak about, hopefully, will be less of a problem in the future and, I were the "King of the world" would be a "non-factor" as of yesterday!

I firmly believe that Caucasian women play the old "double standard" reacting shamefully regarding their opinions/actions regarding men who choose the "mail-order bride" route (I know I am dating myself, but please indulge me! ).

The mindset of many "available" Caucasian women is that if, Caucasian men do not "make the grade". That is, for whatever reason (s), we are not "attractive"(defined as being too poor, too fat, too short, too old, bad dresser, "unsmooth" personality"-the list is endless! ) enough to deserve to have emotional/physical relationships with THEM ONLY! For these unforgivable attributes, it is thought by many Caucasian women, we should all die lonely and horny.

Thinking outside this sphere (or, as I like to call it, "the box") is not an option, according to Caucasian women, as we must accept our WELL-DESERVED fate with them "calling the shots".

Bringing a "mail-order bride" back to Caucasia is nothing short of taking the cheap, dirty and easy way out of your intended destiny! The fact that you are happy (now enjoying companionship that you have a measure (varying) of control over and, hopefully, frequent and great sex) does not fit in the equation as you, by not playing by Caucasian women's convoluted rules, have flunked the test!

Congratulations! You have just graduated from being a pathetic "loser" to being a pathetic "loser" who now is on the "A-List" for "Pimp 'n Ho" party invites!

As you intoduce your "main squeeze" around and explain the particulars get use to cold chills, nervous laughs and the fake "Cheshire Cat" smiles. You took the "easy way out" and that is unforgiveable in a capitalistic society that only recognizes challenges and successes.

And I will not even get into the "physical appearance" disconnect as it varies by location.

The Cardinal sin we commit, according to many Caucasian women, is we "quit" the, what I like to call, "Futile Dating Debacle" and, as we all are told, "winners never quit and quitters never win". SO THERE!

It is easy to delude ourselves by thinking that my Thai lady and I will build a "force field" around the judgmental society around us but don't buy it! Unless we live like hermits in a vacuum (no external people interactions of ANY kind). The negative vibes will put a real strain on an already awkward situation ("different" looking lady in a strange/frightening new culture).

Think about it![/QUOTE]

I think, simply said, girls look at a guy in "Caucasia" with a girlfriend/fiancee/wife from a third world country as being a loser who couldn't get the local quality and had to resort to the import process. I agree they would want you to suffer and die as an un-happy worker bee and you beat the system by your process. They will always believe that you couldn't score because you are not a saleable item. Let's face it, Thailand and other Asian countries are a bit different from the rest of the world in that you really need no game (at all) to get a pretty decent looking lady. Try mongering or looking for bride material in South America for example. You will need a lot more skills to reach success, for example language, personal appearance, grooming, and mabe a bit of "play" to move the situation to the next level. In the end though, who cares what the ladies in Caucasia think.....enjoy your life to the best of your ability and let them wallow in their prejudice.

[QUOTE=Lover Boy #2]In the end though, who cares what the ladies in Caucasia think.....enjoy your life to the best of your ability and let them wallow in their prejudice.[/QUOTE]I'll drink a few [i]bia Sings[/i] to that!

And tonight I'll have a great meal and massage provided by my sweet Thai partner! In turn, I just have to contribute a few Baht to send home to "ma" and the kid every month back on the farm. And I'd very happily do this for my Irish-American "ma" too if she was not so independent and stubborn!

[QUOTE=Lover Boy #2] Let's face it, Thailand and other Asian countries are a bit different from the rest of the world in that you really need no game (at all) to get a pretty decent looking lady.[/QUOTE]

It depends on what quality of "lady" you're talking about. In fact, it can take quite a bit of effort to get a good-looking non-P4P TG.

I don't want to make assumptions about anyone here. But, let's face it. The vast majority of people reading this board and posting have only ever met impoverished girls working in P4P and from that have formed opinions of Thai women which are completely false and highly skewed, to say the least. In general, excluding P4P, Thai women are sexually repressed because the culture is sexually repressed. So, if one does encounter a "regular" TG who's an easy lay, she's most probably a bit sketchy in one way or another, not that "regular", as it turns out, and thus probably not worth hanging onto for anything other than a bit of fun.

If one is content with P4P, or the fuzzy fringes of semi-pros who try to pass for regular TGs, then your opinion is absolutely correct.

But, if one wishes to move into the general population of Thai women, who are truly representative of the reality of the culture, it becomes a whole new ballgame. It can and does sometimes take as much, if not more time, money and effort to get a good-looking regular Thai woman, as it does to get a woman in the US, for example. And, just like American (or British or Canadian or Australian etc. etc.) they too can be ball-busters during the process.

The only difference is that once you're "in", the rewards are greater because unlike a Western woman, a Thai woman won't subject you to all that post-Germaine Grier femi-Nazi nonsense one often encounters "back home".

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]If one is content with P4P, or the fuzzy fringes of semi-pros who try to pass for regular TGs, then your opinion is absolutely correct.[/QUOTE]

That is generally what I was talking about.....the "fuzzy fringes". Being introspective about this, I think I prefer the fuzzy fringes under most circumstances. I think the fuzzy fringe can intrude into the periphery of 9-5 society at times in Thailand (for economic and religious reasons), hence the reason so many guys are surprised what happens with certain girls they thought were "good" (I have been one of them)....but they were really in the fuzzy fringe. In South America and a few other places.....even the outskirt of this fringe cannot be penetrated without some personal skills that I have outlined before. True P4P can even be difficult to obtain under many circumstances for the challenged in some areas. It is my opinion that in Thailand the P4P and fuzzy fringes can be had by a guy with no play.....this same guy would have a nighmare in some other areas where the P4P and fringe girls are less and have beliefs which might exclude many who are successful in Thailand. Do you agree?

I do agree with your comments (and maybe stand corrected) in that a real "catch" in Thailand might take a lot more skill and patience. This catch would mean a woman who was no where near the fringe.....almost on a throne of never needing money or help from outside her family and hence she can be very selective....similar to western world situations.

The thing about Thailand (IMHO)....is that the east Indian, Thai borne lady presented to me as ultra-hiso....who went to school in Great Britian, spoke fluent English (real English not Thaiglish)...had a ton of cash and drove a Mercedes...was really in the fuzzy fringe in a lot of ways once I got invoved with her. Thailand is a tough place because this fuzzy fringe can be huge and might encompass more of the general population than some are willing to admit.

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]It depends on what quality of "lady" you're talking about. In fact, it can take quite a bit of effort to get a good-looking non-P4P TG.[/quote]True. However Looks play a big role here. If you are not properly dressed and do not speak Thai, your chances are VERY slim.

[quote]But, if one wishes to move into the general population of Thai women, who are truly representative of the reality of the culture, it becomes a whole new ballgame. It can and does sometimes take as much, if not more time, money and effort to get a good-looking regular Thai woman, as it does to get a woman in the US, for example.[/quote]

I would even go as far as saying that it will take you MORE effort to land a Good looking TG rather than a girl in your home country.

In my opinion (and I am only talking for myself here), it is not worth the effort unless you are looking for long term Relationship/Marriage. There are a lot of girls (non P4P, non Semi-pro [whatever that means]) that are ready to go out with Farangs for a fun and good time.

I had a date last night with the Shampoo girl from my HairSalon, we had a lot of fun and she ended up Staying the night in my condo.

[quote]The only difference is that once you're "in", the rewards are greater because unlike a Western woman, a Thai woman won't subject you to all that post-Germaine Grier femi-Nazi nonsense one often encounters "back home".[/QUOTE]I do not have enough Experience to judge this as All the girlfriends I had before Thailand were not "Femi-nazi", but I can tell you that I had 2 serious relationship with Thai Girls and that is has its fair share of Headaches.

[QUOTE=Lover Boy #2]Thailand is a tough place because this fuzzy fringe can be huge and might encompass more of the general population than some are willing to admit.[/QUOTE]

This may seem to contradict what I previously said (sexually repressed...etc. etc.) and I do believe in what I wrote about. But, I also agree with you on this because of the many layers and intracacies of the issue. It's the general complexity of Thai culture and therefore Thai women as a part of the large doses of hypocricy that exist within Thai culture - lots of gray areas, lots of secrets. Add to this, that IMO, Thais lack a moral centre and it can sometimes be a slippery slope. Say what you will about Judeao-Christian guilt combined with morality and hard-core ethics; I think it has given westerners at least a strong understanding of honesty and integrity even if we don't always follow the tenets of it all 100%. Thais flat out simply lack this.

There's been lots written in the past about the issue of lying within Thai culture - the fact that Thais do it as a matter of course. Thai women are consumate liars. It is so embedded in the culture that they can't even recognize when they're doing it. So, the dishonesty and corruption that is so pervasive in the culture as a whole is rarely identified, despite the fact that they all make oblique references to it as something that is bad, while enthusiastically practicing it. I witness it so much on a daily basis, that I've become almost numbed by it. A little off topic, but still an example...yesterday I was in a meeting during which my Thai female boss blatantly lied, or perhaps just creatively re-engineered the history of a certain event in which I was a key figure and did so while I was sitting directly opposite her. There would have been a time when I would have called her on it, particularly because it was SO obvious. But, I decided to just let her run with the lie, because she said it with such amazing conviction, that I'm sure it is exactly how she remembered it and what's worse it was so convincing that I started to doubt my own belief in the truth - LOL.

Anyway, all of this contributes to the that "fuzzy fringe"..... OK, now I'm just waiting for some wag to make a joke about the "fuzzy fringe" - ah there - hopefully I've pre-empted it. :D

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]...A little off topic, but still an example...yesterday I was in a meeting during which my Thai female boss blatantly lied, or perhaps just creatively re-engineered the history of a certain event in which I was a key figure and did so while I was sitting directly opposite her. There would have been a time when I would have called her on it, particularly because it was SO obvious. But, I decided to just let her run with the lie, because she said it with such amazing conviction, that I'm sure it is exactly how she remembered it and what's worse it was so convincing that I started to doubt my own belief in the truth - LOL.[/QUOTE]

Oh yes, looks like even you have come around to the *asian* way of doing things... ;) (just pokin' at ya OTH!)

The 're-engineering' of the history of that certain event, if I could offer a mere guess, would have been for the 'benefit' (or your female boss' perceived 'benefit') to your organization, or at least to give herself and/or her department (which includes you) some 'face' to those present at the meeting. Your female boss would have had an irretrievable loss of face should you have 'called her on it' during the meeting and I would hate to imagine the consequences of that disaster...

I'm sure this happens more often than people would admit, even in the Western world.... also reminds me of a line in some Hollywood movie (can't remember which one) that I would use to poke fun at friends in the legal profession:

"I'm a lawyer, the truth is irrelevant!"

[QUOTE=Raverboy]Oh yes, looks like even you have come around to the *asian* way of doing things... ;) (just pokin' at ya OTH!)[/QUOTE]

That's ok. It's true that I've succumbed to a certain extent. I've finally realized that in a very strong, anti-Farang environment, nothing is to be gained by being "un-Thai" (i.e. actually have the nerve to question something). The Thais don't respect Farang, hold us in contempt, at the best of times and won't listen to us even though (and especially because) we know more than they do and are actually capable of a level of competence unheard among Thais. Now, I'm just learning to go with the flow and it seems to help keep me below the radar, which is all I want at this stage in my life.


[QUOTE=Raverboy]The 're-engineering' of the history of that certain event, if I could offer a mere guess, would have been for the 'benefit' (or your female boss' perceived 'benefit') to your organization, or at least to give herself and/or her department (which includes you) some 'face' to those present at the meeting. Your female boss would have had an irretrievable loss of face should you have 'called her on it' during the meeting and I would hate to imagine the consequences of that disaster...[/QUOTE]

Spot on. It's all about "show without substance" (the cornerstone of Thai culture) and specifically, in this case to enhance my boss' image at my expense.

Bringing this back to some relevance...it's all about face and taking care of oneself, and that's why they all lie; whether it's some HiSo *****, like my boss or the lowliest Isaan bargirl. Same same. In fact, lack of honesty and integrity increases the higher up you go on the food chain. The HiSo garbage that run this country lie to agrandise themselves at the great expense of others. BGs merely lie, most of the time just to survive.

Telling lies:

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxXaqELffGQ&feature=related[/url]

[QUOTE=Terry Terrier]Telling lies:

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxXaqELffGQ&feature=related[/url][/QUOTE]

FUNNY!!!

EVERY soft-hearted knob who says that the girl he's met is "different", should be locked in a room and made to watch this for 24 hours over and over and over again.

[quote=terry terrier]telling lies:

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxxaqelffgq&feature=related[/url][/quote]

lol! definitely required viewing for all who are prone to falling into the "kc trap"! the best part of the video to me is at approx. 4:30 when she picks up a call from a friend, speaking in thai:

"man bpee gaeng nor...(!)"

she used 'gu' to refer to herself (very ghetto) and 'man' to refer to the farang... (equivalent to 'it'!!)

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFFAZ9HrAEM&feature=related[/url]

This is link to a video of some Hong Kong guy who 'interviews' (in fairly fluent Thai) various Thai P4P ladies he meets during his travels to Thailand. He has amassed a collection of over 500 such videos, is seemingly creepy but there's something about the dark humour in his collecting these little 'vignettes' of Thai P4P ladies. Those of you who understand Thai will get yet another perspective!

Click on his handle in the top right to see all his videos.

[QUOTE=Terry Terrier]Telling lies:

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxXaqELffGQ&feature=related[/url][/QUOTE]


No surprise here.

I have always been of the opinion that if you want to sponsor a TG, you need to live with her. That way, you get maximum mileage out of your cash. Also, you have at least some control on her that you cannot have if you live half a world away and spend only a few weeks per year in Thailand.

One has to admire the gentle way that these TGs have to extract money form a gullible Farang (or many gullible Farangs). That particular TG looks nice enough. I hope the guy on the phone gets his money’s worth in sex and attention when he is in town. In any case, one could consider that the man is buying an illusion, and that is what he gets; the illusion of being loved by a cute girl half his age for relatively little money.

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand] A little off topic, but still an example...yesterday I was in a meeting during which my Thai female boss blatantly lied, or perhaps just creatively re-engineered the history of a certain event in which I was a key figure and did so while I was sitting directly opposite her. There would have been a time when I would have called her on it, particularly because it was SO obvious. But, I decided to just let her run with the lie, because she said it with such amazing conviction, that I'm sure it is exactly how she remembered it and what's worse it was so convincing that I started to doubt my own belief in the truth - LOL.
[/QUOTE]

OTH,

I had a colleague who was just like that boss of yours. He cannot cope with the world the way it is and in particular he cannot admit that he is ever wrong or that someone he sees as a potential competitor could be right, more capable, etc. As a result, he tells stories in which he rearranges the truth to his advantage all the time. He does so with the utmost conviction that shows he actually can deceive himself. I have been the “victim” of that behaviour countless of times, to the point that sometimes I would doubt my own recollection or perception of the facts. He also lies as a matter of fact, typically because he tries to manipulate everybody, occasionally promising to give something it is not in his power to bestow, or to promise the same thing to several people. As you remarked in your little anecdote, his antics are so obvious, but nonetheless he seems to go on and on.

No doubt this guy could easily pass for HISo Thai scum, but very much a Farang like us.

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]But, if one wishes to move into the general population of Thai women, who are truly representative of the reality of the culture, it becomes a whole new ballgame. It can and does sometimes take as much, if not more time, money and effort to get a good-looking regular Thai woman, as it does to get a woman in the US, for example. And, just like American (or British or Canadian or Australian etc. etc.) they too can be ball-busters during the process.

The only difference is that once you're "in", the rewards are greater because unlike a Western woman, a Thai woman won't subject you to all that post-Germaine Grier femi-Nazi nonsense one often encounters "back home".[/QUOTE]This is true, take it from one who has been married to a TG 7 years now. I will add Thai women, in particular those who are educated, tend to have a "class" mentality about them. Those with a BS degree won't date anyone who does not. If they have a Masters, they are happy to date a farang with the same because it's difficult for them to find an equal in their own culture. Having a mate accepted by their family and friends means more to them than your money. That's just the way it is.

XS

[QUOTE=NicFrenchy]True. However Looks play a big role here. If you are not properly dressed and do not speak Thai, your chances are VERY slim.

I would even go as far as saying that it will take you MORE effort to land a Good looking TG rather than a girl in your home country.

In my opinion (and I am only talking for myself here), it is not worth the effort unless you are looking for long term Relationship/Marriage. There are a lot of girls (non P4P, non Semi-pro [whatever that means]) that are ready to go out with Farangs for a fun and good time.

[/QUOTE]

The best way to meet a good looking (non P4P) TG is to introduced by another Thai.

[quote=terry terrier]telling lies:

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxxaqelffgq&feature=related[/url][/quote]oh man. so funny what some peeps put on youtube. i nearly wet myself when see this.

lol

johan

Good Morning Gentlemen,

my first post, first trip to land of Thai, and first experience with Thai girls. In other words, a clueless newb.

Briefly about myself: 25 yo white male, finance industry pro, in BK for a biz trip.

On to the action:
Exploring the Cowboy area of Bangkok, I bumped into a bar with totally naked girlies shaking their booty on stage (isnt that illegal here?). Picked one target at random (they all seemed identical in both body type, skin color, face expression and total lack of grey matter between the ears). She sat on my lap, and we small-talked a bit, she passed the boner test so I have barfined her for 700 baht. The mamasan character in that place was a major cockblock so I was happy to move out.

Out of the venue, the girl looked much less enthused despite my best efforts to be charming, to revive the "chemistry" I showed her my PDA pictures of my house, hometown, and said I dont have a wife back home. That dangling carrot got things going until my hotel's reception desk where the guard took suspiciously long time to check her ID card, the whole time he was giggling like a 6 year old groped by Ronald McDonald.

At the room I jumped into the shower, while the girl flipped on the TV and was yapping on the phone. Thais seem to have 2 languages - one for talking to foreign customers that includes a lot of bowing and softly spoken melodic words, and another for talking to each other that contains short barking shouts in high pitched voice.

On to the main event, the girl had lots of trouble dealing with the length of my manhood, I am no lost brother of ManDingo, just a typical euro-sized guy, maybe 7.5 inch, but I am glad I brought my own condoms coz the local ones sold here are uncomfortably small. Had to empty quarter of a KY Jelly lube tube to slide it in, and anal was out of question.

We went at it for an hour, she was pretending to enjoy it with some fake moans but it was clearly act not worthy of an Academy Award. Credit to her, she took my every request with loyal obedience and determination of a spartan soldier on a mission deep behind enemy lines. The only complain I heard was when drops of cum hit her hair.

She didnt ask for money and said give what you want. I had no small notes, so passed her 2 1000 baht bills, have no idea what the local prices are, she seemed happy with that. Left me her phone number and asked to meet again.

Overall, I am kinda disillusioned. I realised I dont really enjoy it unless my partner does too. Guess I have a "giver" personality? Or do you all feel this way? Maybe the whole Elliott Spitzer thing is just not for me....

The professional babes here seem to be permanently damaged goods after a month working the bar pole. I am considering trying a local "good girl" instead. Someone earlier said it's really hard if you dont know Thai. The only Thai words I know are "Sawatdee" and "Tom Yum", but I seem to be madly popular with waitresses. Maybe because I tip them? They get paid peanuts and tipping doesnt seem to be in fashion here. If you dont tip a waiter in USA, you'll get some "extra sauce" in your soup next time you come in. Oh, and salesgirls hit on me too. The other day I got stopped by 2 salesbabes for some kind of hotel survey, and 2 minutes later I was being given their mobile numbers and an invite for a date. Either I am incredibly charming, or they noticed I ticked the 80000+ USD income box, LOL. It's safer to be cynical about that.

Flames, smartcracks, advice, all appreciated!

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[quote=johan007]oh man. so funny what some peeps put on youtube. i nearly wet myself when see this.

lol

johan[/quote]

unfortunately the user removed the video so those of us who are too late no longer have a chance to laugh at it.

[QUOTE=Xsailor]This is true, take it from one who has been married to a TG 7 years now. I will add Thai women, in particular those who are educated, tend to have a "class" mentality about them. Those with a BS degree won't date anyone who does not. If they have a Masters, they are happy to date a farang with the same because it's difficult for them to find an equal in their own culture. Having a mate accepted by their family and friends means more to them than your money. That's just the way it is.

XS[/QUOTE]

This is quite true. In fact, many Thai men generally don't like a Thai woman who is too educated. They find it intimidating because she's likely to have her own opinion about things, far less likely to be subservient and will be quite independent overall. A lot of my Thai female colleagues, with PhDs are single or divorced. Many of them are quite good-looking, but tell me that it's difficult for them to find a Thai man because Thai men don't like dealing with an intelligent woman.

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]This is quite true. In fact, many Thai men generally don't like a Thai woman who is too educated. ............... A lot of my Thai female colleagues, with PhDs are single or divorced. Many of them are quite good-looking, but tell me that it's difficult for them to find a Thai man because Thai men don't like dealing with an intelligent woman.[/QUOTE]
That's not just a Thai fact, it is a global fact. It's called compatibility.

Listen up Fast Buck Artist and do some research on Ladyboys; the guard could have been giggling because he saw the ID being that she is a "HE".

Sorry about the bubble bursting, but wlecome to Thailand.

[QUOTE=Fast Buck Artist]Good Morning Gentlemen,

my first post, first trip to land of Thai, and first experience with Thai girls. In other words, a clueless newb.

Briefly about myself: 25 yo white male, finance industry pro, in BK for a biz trip.

On to the action:

Exploring the Cowboy area of Bangkok, I bumped into a bar with totally naked girlies shaking their booty on stage (isnt that illegal here?). Picked one target at random (they all seemed identical in both body type, skin color, face expression and total lack of grey matter between the ears). She sat on my lap, and we small-talked a bit, she passed the boner test so I have barfined her for 700 baht. The mamasan character in that place was a major cockblock so I was happy to move out.

Out of the venue, the girl looked much less enthused despite my best efforts to be charming, to revive the "chemistry" I showed her my PDA pictures of my house, hometown, and said I dont have a wife back home. That dangling carrot got things going until my hotel's reception desk where the guard took suspiciously long time to check her ID card, the whole time he was giggling like a 6 year old groped by Ronald McDonald.

At the room I jumped into the shower, while the girl flipped on the TV and was yapping on the phone. Thais seem to have 2 languages - one for talking to foreign customers that includes a lot of bowing and softly spoken melodic words, and another for talking to each other that contains short barking shouts in high pitched voice.

On to the main event, the girl had lots of trouble dealing with the length of my manhood, I am no lost brother of ManDingo, just a typical euro-sized guy, maybe 7.5 inch, but I am glad I brought my own condoms coz the local ones sold here are uncomfortably small. Had to empty quarter of a KY Jelly lube tube to slide it in, and anal was out of question.

We went at it for an hour, she was pretending to enjoy it with some fake moans but it was clearly act not worthy of an Academy Award. Credit to her, she took my every request with loyal obedience and determination of a spartan soldier on a mission deep behind enemy lines. The only complain I heard was when drops of cum hit her hair.

She didnt ask for money and said give what you want. I had no small notes, so passed her 2 1000 baht bills, have no idea what the local prices are, she seemed happy with that. Left me her phone number and asked to meet again.

Overall, I am kinda disillusioned. I realised I dont really enjoy it unless my partner does too. Guess I have a "giver" personality? Or do you all feel this way? Maybe the whole Elliott Spitzer thing is just not for me....

The professional babes here seem to be permanently damaged goods after a month working the bar pole. I am considering trying a local "good girl" instead. Someone earlier said it's really hard if you dont know Thai. The only Thai words I know are "Sawatdee" and "Tom Yum", but I seem to be madly popular with waitresses. Maybe because I tip them? They get paid peanuts and tipping doesnt seem to be in fashion here. If you dont tip a waiter in USA, you'll get some "extra sauce" in your soup next time you come in. Oh, and salesgirls hit on me too. The other day I got stopped by 2 salesbabes for some kind of hotel survey, and 2 minutes later I was being given their mobile numbers and an invite for a date. Either I am incredibly charming, or they noticed I ticked the 80000+ USD income box, LOL. It's safer to be cynical about that.

Flames, smartcracks, advice, all appreciated!

[size=-2][b][u]EDITOR'S NOTE[/u]:[/b] [blue]I would suggest that the author or another Forum Member consider posting a link to this report in the Reports of Distinction thread. Please [url=http://www.internationalsexguide.info/forum/announcement-reportsofdistinction.php?]Click Here[/url] for more information.[/blue][/size][/QUOTE]

I just had to comment on the BG opinions. Being in my 20's you gotta realize a LOT of hapa people my age I've met (half filipino, viet, thai or chinese) had dads who "met mom while in the service" back in the 60s and 70s

Come on now, more than a few of these were bargirls they brought back. Women have a funny way of changing from sluts to good girls, from wild chicks to great caring mothers.

Wierd.

So I'm going to be taking a break from my career to go to Pattaya or Phucket to train Muay Thai for a half a year or so for the sheer hell of it.

As that's a long time I've got a question - are there normal nightlife areas in Thailand? Where I can meet english speaking, perhaps college educated, regular people?

I ask because after doing a bunch of research in the Shanghai forum on mongering, when I finally went there I ended up just hitting up clubs and meeting new friends, having fun through that outlet. In Shanghai despite all the crazy nightlife there are tons of expat bars where normal women, educated and english speaking hang out. But reading Thailand and from what I've heard from older friends who have been in the service - seems it's just crazy crazy WGs!

Someone please set me straight.

well Buck - nope, it's only ILLEGAL if they get caught. Add to that the local gendarmerie is pretty well paid off, so what might not happen elsewhere can be found on Cowboy.

You gave her what she would have asked anyway - but YES - you did have "NEWBIE" written all over you.

Try a bit of probing next time and see if the rest of the poo-ying "clicks" instead

HERE AND GONE

As the air-conditioner drones in my room
I know my lies are no less common than other lies
and I know I will forget what I have promised not to–

yet I have not forgotten any of them
all of them mattered in their own way
and mine
even so, they are gone
and I am happy
for them

they deserved better
they all deserved better
and I . . .

I deserved
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . much
. . . . . . . . much
l e s s

WHAT IS LOVE

What is love? A lifetime spent
Of days that pain does fill,
That thousand tears can't content,
But asks for tears still.

With but a little glance coquette
Your soul it knows to tie,
That of its spell you can't forget
Until the day you die.

Upon your threshold does it stand,
In every nook conspire,
That you may whisper hand in hand
Your tale of heart's aspire.

Till fades the very earth and sky,
Your heart completely broken,
And all the world hangs on a sigh,
A word but partly spoken.

It follows you for weeks and weeks
And in your soul assembles
The memory of blushing cheeks
And eyelash fair that trembles.

It comes to you a sudden ray
As though of starlight's spending,
How many and many a time each day
And every night unending.

For of your life has fate decreed
That pain shall it enfold,
As does the clinging waterweed
About a swimmer hold.

[QUOTE=PosterLion]HERE AND GONE

As the air-conditioner drones in my room
I know my lies are no less common than other lies
and I know I will forget what I have promised not to–

yet I have not forgotten any of them
all of them mattered in their own way
and mine
even so, they are gone
and I am happy
for them

they deserved better
they all deserved better
and I . . .

I deserved
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . much
. . . . . . . . much
l e s s[/QUOTE]

PL,

I can identify with these feelings. I find it very hard to split with ex-GFs but also feel I haven't been as good as they would have liked or deserved.

I make a point of not promising anything that I have any possibility of forgetting or failing to fulfill. Often forgetting a promise is much worse than failing to perform the task or obligation.

You are artistic, eloquent, a nice guy, and even good looking (jealous). From these points points alone you will deserve far more than most.

Consider how you stack up against the competition. Then see if you deserve much less than all the other guys out there.

Nobody's perfect. But you can imagine the difficulties for Thai girls to find the perfect man.

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]Thai man because Thai men don't like dealing with an intelligent woman.[/QUOTE]Thats true everywhere, isnt it?

If a woman is smart and independent, she is going to have the upper hand in the relationship. A guy who likes to be the boss in the house would want to get a woman he can boss around. The dumber and helpless the better.

So where would a single guy here get to know these smart single professional ladies longing for companionship? Online dating? Online job ads? University campus? I am not intimidated by a smart girl, crush me with your 160 IQ baby!

Being a stubborn hardhead who doesnt give up on the first try, I went back to the battle plans and restrategized. Ok, so what went wrong on the first night?

1. I picked the first ***** that sat on my lap. The girl was obviously an experienced professional whose feelings have been long replaced with cold calculation. Not the kind you want for a girlfriend experience.

2. She was just too small and tight for me. I doubt she could sit straight the next day. Of course she didn't enjoy it, duh, idiot. Pick a girl your own size next time.

Armed with these insights, I headed to Nana Plaza this time, and spotted a bar with really tall girls inside, except there was something wrong about them. They were like an oversized Barbie doll glossed with Photoshop. And they talked like gay men. I can't recall the name of the place, "Obsession" maybe? I obviously stumbled into a tranny joint. Credit to the surgeons, these were the best crafted trannies I have ever seen. Impressive work.

To be safe, I headed back to Cowboy street, into a blue themed strip bar. Fairly popular, with lots of westerners and about 30 girls of all sizes, curves and attitudes. Here they had the bras on, but were wiggling barenekkid asses.

- First target was a slightly older girl that intrigued me, she was about 8 years older than all the others. Talked to her for a bit, she had a very "mum" attitude about her. After some probing and pointing to the stretch marks on her stomach, I found out she was indeed a mum, and had elderly parents to take care of too, thats why she was still working the bar at her age. On top of that, she had needle scars on her arms. Bought her some drinks to cheer her up, but thats all.

- Second target was a well dressed hot arrogant girl that was a total ****. She molested me in imaginative ways like grabbing dick through the shorts and sticking the tongue out dripping saliva and panting in a "drooling ***** in heat" kind of act. Hot girl, but clearly a seasoned professional, so I convinced a nearby patron to buy her a drink to get rid of her.

- Third target was a shy girl sitting in the corner alone and watching what other girls were doing. Didn't speak a word of english. Looked out of place. I got some communication going with sign language, showed her some funny videos on my PDA, got her some drinks, danced with her, and managed to spark some chemistry, I think. She was obviously a new recruit straight off the farm. Hmm. I think I found what I was looking for! Barfined her for 600 bhat and we were off to my hotel.

As hoped, she was totally acting like a girlfriend, she flirted, laughed, pouted, took care of me, just like a fiancee on a date would. We had some snacks, played Tetris on my laptop, I put on some Tai Oratai songs that she knew by heart and sang along.

Moving onto bed, she insisted immediately on condom (GOOD! If a girl accepts your offer to bareback her, kick her out immediately, you've got an HIV carrier in the room.) She was really shy about her small breasts, first asked to keep her bra on, then asked to turn off the light. I put an end to that nonsense and gave her some excellent oral, she was very wet and came thoroughly. The rest of the night was fucking great with sessions of singing, playing, snacking, dancing and fucking for hours.

Asked her for phone number before she was going home, she was so happy to give it she jumped on me and I had to give her a piggyback ride down the hotel corridor: o)

Sigh. In a couple of months she'll be wrecked by the bar scene into another cold manipulative professional with no feelings or scruples, caring about one thing only. Cash. Damn shame. Well, we all make our choices in life.

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[QUOTE=Fast Buck Artist]Thats true everywhere, isnt it?

If a woman is smart and independent, she is going to have the upper hand in the relationship. A guy who likes to be the boss in the house would want to get a woman he can boss around. The dumber and helpless the better.

So where would a single guy here get to know these smart single professional ladies longing for companionship? Online dating? Online job ads? University campus? I am not intimidated by a smart girl, crush me with your 160 IQ baby![/QUOTE]

If you don't live here, you won't have much luck meeting "smart, single, professional ladies". You might also be hard-pressed to find any with a 160 IQ, anyway. Even the most intelligent Thais don't stack up when compared to westerners. Intelligence is relative in this country.

If you indeed want dumb and helpless, this is the place to look. The country has an over-abundance of women who fit that description.

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]If you don't live here, you won't have much luck meeting "smart, single, professional ladies". [/QUOTE]

Clarify... if you visit often, travel there often, it is not hard to find the ladies, non P4P ladies and the professional ladies. Especially through your work over there it is not difficult. Many ladies I meet there through work are single and come across as very forward after a while. They are not 21 year old's... but 26 to 34 is a good range of smart ladies I meet in work.

I am not saying it's easy, and it is much less trouble to go P4P but it is possible if you are around enough even if you don't live there.

A big issue I have found is communication, if you stay in touch with them even when you are not there your chances of scoring are greatly increased when you are there. But don't let them find out you go P4P, one time one lady found out I was out with P4P and that killed everything and helped ruin some work I was working on. So not always worth going non p4p.

[QUOTE=Tansak KTV]A big issue I have found is communication, if you stay in touch with them even when you are not there your chances of scoring are greatly increased when you are there. [/quote]

Well this is obvious as we are not talking about a poor issan girl looking for a sponsor while she Frolics with other punters. Thai girls working in Managerial positions know what they want, and they certainly don't want a platonic or internet relationship where they can get to see their boyfriend twice a year. As OTH mentionned, if you aren't living here then your chances of landing a Good non P4P girl are slim to none.

I meet a lot of Hi-so women in my line of work and let me tell you something, they are all educated, speak English fairly well (from a Frenchman's Point of view anyway) but are very bitchy and self centered which is a big turn-off. They are used to getting what they want when they want it and think that they can buy their way through everything. These are certainly not the type of ladies I would date and I have refused a couple of offers. For one, it's all fun on their side, having sex with the young farang and then telling their friends all about it but what scares me the most is to get caught and expelled from the country because Mommy and/or Daddy is a very powerful "somebody".

[quote]But don't let them find out you go P4P, one time one lady found out I was out with P4P and that killed everything and helped ruin some work I was working on. So not always worth going non p4p.[/QUOTE]

True, non P4P Thais see "prostitutes" as the Lowest class level, you should hear what my Thai Staff (the Ladies) say about them, it certainly is not pretty. The males on the other hand keep very quiet about the issue because they all partake in P4P.

[QUOTE=NicFrenchy]For one, it's all fun on their side, having sex with the young farang and then telling their friends all about it but what scares me the most is to get caught and expelled from the country because Mommy and/or Daddy is a very powerful "somebody".[/QUOTE]

This is so true. I'm not a young Farang, but an old one, who falls into that "Daddy" role. For those that don't know, being called "Daddy" by a TG has strong sexual connotations. I took a group of 18-19 y.o. dek noo (dek noo=HiSo rich kids) to Europe last summer for a study-abroad trip and they eventually all started calling me Daddy. They were always grabbing me and touching me - a very un-Thai thing to do, especially in public. Away from university and particularly Thailand, they could let loose. Late one night, one showed up at my room dressed in very thin pajamas and nothing else; there to ask some question that she already knew the answer to. It was quite clear that I could have just asked her in and shagged her on the spot. It was obvious, she had a school-girl crush on me (and still does - back at school and she's still fondling me all the time, even in class). But, this girl's family are sooooooooooo rich and powerful, that if I had done something (or did something, now), I'd regret it, as it would surely go wrong. All these girls, while quite stunning looking are extremely high maintenance and ultimately not worth the trouble.

I maintain that the best TGs to go after are middle-class educated, professionals - not too rich - but interesting enough to be entertaining outside the bedroom.



[QUOTE=NicFrenchy]True, non P4P Thais see "prostitutes" as the Lowest class level, you should hear what my Thai Staff (the Ladies) say about them, it certainly is not pretty.[/QUOTE]

Lower than maids, and those women who sweep the streets, and that's saying something. There's certainly a stigma attached, if you're discovered to have partaken of P4P, even if you don't any longer (like me). My GF has asked me if I ever did in the past. I've flat-out said 'no' because I know she'd dump me in a heartbeat, if I ever admitted it. She probably knows that I have. But, as long as on the surface I appear to have never shagged a hooker, everything is ok. My GF is pretty typical of Thais. She hates bargirls. When my last condo building started to get overrun with Farang and their bar-girlfriends, my GF insisted we move, as it looked bad to her family for her to be living there, even though it was a good building in a good neighbourhood. I actually agreed with her. These Farang guys with these kind of girls lowered the tone of the building and made themselves look bad to the staff who worked there. The building, which was brand new when I moved in, in 2005 has become a somewhat seedy dive in 3 short years largely because of this.

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]... For those that don't know, being called "Daddy" by a TG has strong sexual connotations. ...[/QUOTE]

I'll attest to that statement! It certainly works well for me.

[QUOTE=Daddy07]I'll attest to that statement! It certainly works well for me.[/QUOTE]

Good one.

But, seriously, unless you've branched out into the general population, now that you've been in Pattaya awhile, the term "Daddy" doesn't really apply in a P4P scenario. It really only works in a situation with an older guy and a young, non-P4P girl, often in a business (or in my case) educational environment.

The first time I ever encountered this was 11 years ago when I first moved here and was working for a Thai company. After awhile, a girl in the office asked if they could call my mate, who was 54 at the time, "Daddy". He was a real old Thai hand, having been here since the 70s. He was quite excited about this and gave me the low-down on what "Daddy" really meant. I've since discovered for myself that he was quite right. It may sound slightly unsavory to outsiders. But, it carries a certain cache with women, if they can call you "Daddy" and the added element is that you then call them "Baby". I suppose it's all very childish. But, it works for me. ;)

Thanks ML,

but let me tell ya a thing or two
between
old dogs
and the old salt
that stands between 'em.

good looks
as with everything
has high and low
points

a good looking guy
might make
one or two folks
jealous

but in the end
it helps him
get the
girl

and it also
helps
him
understand something
about god's gifts

free gifts
come with a price

they help you
get what you
want

but they also
help you
understand
the extent

of your
unworthyness

because a man with the freedom
of a free
gift

can see his unworthyness
much more clearly
than
the man

that had to try
much harder . . .

ALL THAT ASIDE
I posted those poems
because
my greatest loss
in leaving thailand
is the loss
of a spirit kindred

that any man

handsome or not
would grieve about
heavily

if you, or any like you, enjoy doing some research, I happily and humbly encourage you to cut and past the following at [url]http://www.thai2english.com/[/url]

if you spend the time decifering what I have suggested for you to decifer, you will certainly understand my conundrum. This thing that I ask you to understand is one of the most beautiful things anyone has ever offered to me in this life.

cheers to all and to all a good . . . whatever
for me it will be a good er a something or other most likely related to the sudden rush of a stiff drink shooting through me while in the distance there is the faint sound of dorothy's clicking red heels to the beat of toto's happy-i-want-to-go-home bark. :)

poster . . .

ฉันเป็นคนอาภัพนะ ขี้ขลาด หวาดกลัว ไม่ว่าชีวิตรัก ชีวิตครอบครัวก็แย่ๆมากๆ
ไม่ว่าชีวิตฉันจะเป็นเช่นไร ฉันก็อยากให้เธอเชื่อว่า ฉันรักเธอนะ และรักมากด้วย ฉันรู้ว่าเธอเป็นคนที่ใช่ แต่ฉันไม่มีสิทธิ์ที่คิดจะมีเธอไว้ได้นาน ช่วงเวลาที่เราได้อยู่ด้วยกัน ฉันก็อยากให้เราเรียนรู้ซึ่งกันและกัน และให้ความสุขซึ่งกันและกัน มากเท่าที่เราจะให้กันและกันได้ ขอบคุณฟ้าที่ให้ฉันได้เจอเธอนะ พอฉันได้เจอ ได้รู้จัก ได้พูดคุย ฉันมีความรู้สึก อยากใกล้ชิด คิดถึง อยากโทรหา ฉันก็ผ่านชีวิตคุ่มาก็เยอะแล้วนะ แต่มันเป็นอะไรที่แปลกประหลาด เป็นอะไรที่สวยงาม และมีความรู้สึกสุขสดชื่นเหมือนไม่เคยมีความรัก เหมือนมันเป็น ความรักครั้งแรกเลยก็ว่าได้
ทั้งที่ฉันก็โชกโชน ในเรื่องนี้มาก ถามหา เจอที่ดีกว่า ก็เปลี่ยนมาเรื่อย ๆ
ฉันเจอเธอแล้ว ฉันไม่อยากเจอใครเลย อยากจะหยุดทุกสิ่งทุกอย่าง ไม่มีอะไรที่จะดีไปกว่า ได้เจอเธอ และได้มีเวลา อยู่ และใกล้ชิด กับเธอ และมันก็เป็นอะไร ที่ออกจะไม่ง่าย และยากสำหรับ คนที่ใจร้อน และเอาแต่ใจตัวเองเหมือนฉันด้วย
แต่เธอก็เปลี่ยน ตัวฉันได้ทุกอย่าง ฉันคิดว่า ฉันเป็นผู้หญิงที่เก่งมากๆแล้วนะ แต่เจอเธอฉันไม่อยากเก่ง อยากเป็นเด็กๆ อยากไร้เดียงสา และอยากอินโนเซ็น และโรแมนติก
หวานแหวว ตลอดเวลา ทั้งที่มัน ไม่ใช่ตัวฉัน
ฉันต้องเข้มแข็ง บึกบึน ดูแกร่งเหมือนชาย ใครๆเขาก็ว่าฉันจิตใจเหมือนหิน ร่างกายเหมือนชาย แต่ฉันบอก
ได้เลยว่าฉันอ่อนแอมากๆ ทุกคนเห็นในสิ่งที่ไม่ใช่ตัวจริงฉันหรอก แต่ฉันก็ไม่เคยอยากเปิดเผยตัวจริง ให้ใครรู้ ไม่อยากให้ใครเห็นว่าฉันท้อ และอ่อนแอ ไม่ต้องการที่ฉันให้ใครมาสงสาร มาเห็นน้ำตาตกในความอ่อนแอมากมากของฉันหรอกนะ ฉันเปิดเผยตัวตน และความจริง กับเธอทำไมก็ไม่รู้ ฉันโมโหตัวเองตลอดเวลาที่ฉันคิดถึง ว่าได้เล่าชีวิตทุกอย่างที่รู้และได้รับรู้เรื่องราวของฉันทุกอย่าง ทุกเรื่อง แต่ฉันก็ดีใจนะได้เปิดเผยให้ใครสักคนรับรู้ เพราะฉันคิดว่าฉันมีความรัก มีหัวใจและเขารักและเข้าใจฉันมากกว่าคน ที่ฉันรู้จักที่ผ่านมา และฉันก็อยากให้เขารู้ว่าทั้งชีวิต ทั้งหัวใจ ทั้งความหวัง เธอคือจุดหมายสุดท้ายของฉัน
ไม่ว่าจะอยู่ด้วยกัน หรือเลิกกัน เธอก็จะมีค่าสำหรับฉัน และอยู่ในใจฉันเสมอ
ฉันจะรักเธอและคิดถึงเธอ ตลอดลมหายใจ สุดท้ายที่ฉันมีอยู่
แค่เธอทำให้ฉันเห็นว่าตัวฉัน และความรักของฉัน ก็มีค่าอยู่ เท่านี้ ก็เป็นความสุข
พลัง และกำลังใจ ของฉันแล้ว

สาเหตุที่ฉันต้องเสพยาเพราะเครียดในเรื่องงาน และเครียดในเรื่องรัก
เรื่องครอบครัวมากๆ หาความรัก ความอบอุ่น ความจริงใจ ห่วงใย เป็นห่วงฉัน
เข้าใจฉันบ้างไม่มีเลย ฉันไม่มีรัก ไม่มีกำลังใจ แล้วฉันก็ไม่สามารถมีพลัง
มันเป็นพลัง เป็นแรง เป็นความมั่นใจ เป็นความรู้สึก ให้ฉัน รับ และรักสนุกกับอาชีพ ที่ฉันคิดว่าไม่ชอบ แต่ก็เป็นอะไรที่เปลี่ยนชีวิตบ้านนอก เปลี่ยนความยากจน ของฉันได้ ได้เงินดี งานง่ายๆเอาตัวแลก แล้วก็ได้เงิน เงินคือความสุขของฉัน เมื่อฉันมีเงินฉันก็ซื้อมันได้ มันคือความสุขแลมันก็เข้าใจฉัน คุยกับฉัน รับรู้ และอยู่กับฉันตลอด เพราะไม่มีใครรัก และต้องการฉัน ฉันก็น่าจะเลิกหวัง และหาในสิ่งที่ฉันต้องการ
มันคือความสุข ฉันสามารถ สนุก สุขกับมันได้ทุกเมื่อ
แต่ฉันมีเธอ มันก็สามารถแพ้ และฉันก็สามารถเอาชนะมันได้
เธอคือพลัง เธอทำให้ฉัน มั่นใจ เธอให้ความสุขได้มาก กว่ามัน
ขอบคุณมากที่รัก รักคุณมากๆ และเป็นห่วงคุณเสมอ อยากให้คุณ มีความสุขมากๆ และก็โชคดีมากๆด้วย
ฉันให้ความรักเธอได้ทั้งหมดที่ฉันมีนะ ขอให้เธอรู้ว่าตัวฉันอาจจะไม่มีค่าอะไรแต่ฉันมีความรักที่ฉันคิดว่ามันมีค่า และมีความหมายกับฉันมาก และฉันคิดว่าอยากจะมอบให้เธอคนเดียว และคนสุดท้ายด้วย ฉันขอแค่มีสิทธิ์เก็บเธอไว้ในฝันและในใจฉันก็พอนะ ฉันรัก ต้องการและอยากเดินเคียงข้างเธอเสมอ รักเธอมากนะ ไมเคิล สุดที่รักของฉัน
เธอมีความหมายมากกว่าใครๆ
พิม ดอกไม้ราตรี


ขอบคุณสำหรับทุกสิ่งทุกอย่าง เธอเป็นคนทำให้ฉันมีความสุขมากๆ
ไม่อยากให้เธอลำบากใจกับฉันอีกแล้ว ไม่ต้องการเรียกร้องหรือขออะไรอีกต่อไปแล้ว
ทุกสิ่งทุกอย่างที่ฉัน ทำให้เธอไม่ชอบ ทำให้เธอทุกข์ใจ ฉันต้องขอโทษเธอมากๆนะ เธอไม่อยู่ที่เมืองไทยเป็นเดือนๆฉันคงคิดถึงเธอมากๆเลย แต่ไม่ต้องห่วงนะ
ฉันจะดูแลห้องให้เธอเป็นอย่างดีเลย ฉันจะไม่พาใครเข้ามาในห้องเธอเด็ดขาด
ฉันสัญญา ฉันจะหัดอยู่คนเดียว กินคนเดียว ทำอะไรคนเดียวดูบ้างสักเดือน ก็คงจะดีนะ ฉันจะไม่ลืมคิดถึงเธอ และฉันก็อยากทำตัวดีๆให้เธอชื่นใจบ้าง ฉันจะเปลี่ยนตัวเองจากแสงไฟมาเป็นแสงสว่างของพระอาทิตย์ ลองเดินดูผู้คน เที่ยวชมสถานที่ ที่ไม่ใช่ แต่โรงแรมๆ ฉันก็อยากเปลี่ยนตัวเองใหม่มั้ง ฉันแก่ลงมากแล้ว ฉันต้องคิดถึงอนาคตข้างหน้าของฉันแล้ว ขอให้เธอโชคดี มีความสุขมากๆกับครอบครัวเธอนะ
ช่วงที่เธอไม่อยู่ฉัน จะพยายามหาลู่ทางช่วยเหลือตัวเองให้มากที่สุด รบกวนเธอมามากๆแล้ว ไม่อยากให้เธอต้องมานั่งแบกภาระกับฉัน ฉันจะต้องหาห้องเช่าเป็นของฉันเองให้ได้ ก่อนที่เธอจะกลับเมืองไทย ใช่ว่าฉันต้องการเลิกกันกับเธอนะ แต่คนเราก็ต้องอยากใช้เวลาส่วนตัวบ้าง ฉันกลัวเธอเบื่อฉันมาก ฉันกลัวเธอเลิกกันกับฉันด้วย ฉันคงหาห้องเช่าไม่ไกลจากเธอเท่าไรหรอก จะได้เดินไปเดินมาหากันได้
สะดวก รักเธอนะ ไม่อยากให้เธอคิดมาก ที่มีฉันอยู่ข้างกายเธอ
เมื่ออยู่ที่อารมณ์รักอย่าลืมหาเวลานิดหน่อยคิดถึงฉันนะ
ฉันจะนั่งคิดถึงเธอทุกวันดูท้องฟ้า ดูพระจันทร์ นั่งส่งใจไปให้ถึงอเมริกาเลยเอาวันละ1ชั่วโมงก็คงพอนะ 1ชั่วโมงจะคิดถึงแต่เธอคนเดียวเลย
จะรอเธอกลับ
รักเสมอ

Fortunately this Thai girl writes in a style not too complex for a weak Thai speaker like me to understand reasonably well. She speaks from the heart directly which helps the meaning to be clear. But I can read Thai script slowly so will finish it later on. Only need the dictionary for a few words like "โชกโชน" (chohk chohn) "hardship" for example.
Initially thought "chohk" was the word for "luck" spelled wrong.
Have to work now, unfortunately. But I have got the drift already so appeciate your feelings too.

Its a pity that highly emotional girls, have both good emotions and hot tempers. I have quit hot-tempered girls and chosen a rather "cool" girl now (most of the time).

-----------------------------------------
I have come back and finished it now.
Is the strength of these feelings mutual?
Lopsided or unbalanced relationships usually seem to be some sort of problem.
So what is to be your destiny? Are you to escape or to return?

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]If you indeed want dumb and helpless, this is the place to look. The country has an over-abundance of women who fit that description.[/QUOTE]

Just be careful of the poor, dumb and helpless little things. They'll own you before the week is out.

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]My GF has asked me if I ever did in the past. I've flat-out said 'no' because I know she'd dump me in a heartbeat, if I ever admitted it.[/QUOTE]

Oh, yes, OTH. I have been asked by the GF, by her sister, by her mother and even with a nudge, nudge, wink, wink attitude by her brother. I maintain my innocence. I stretch the truth a bit about how long ago my wife died and then claim the GF is my first attachment since then. I suspect even the knowledge of a happy ending at a massage parlor would be the death knell. She only knows about the twice monthly visits to a reputable spa. Which, by the way, are a vast improvement over most of the massages you'd get, anyway, hand jobs not withstanding.

Just back from Bangkok, sitting in Changi. Reflecting on my time there. If you look to past posts, you will get a feel for how i think operate: not into chasing endless different pussy, tired of the dud ones. I've come to enjoy the "devil i know" more.

The girl i have been visiting now for some years is a working girl, no pretending or false expectations. However, i stay in her "condo" whenever i am in Bangkok (every 6 weeks for a week or so), and have visited family up in the country a couple of times now.

This post is about the "visit family in the country" thing. I am very relaxed about everything. I am working on the basis that i know she is a working girl, and she knows i am married with deep family and business roots (as in tree) at home. However, she and her family treat me like family, organised a serious party to celebrate my birthday, at which the whole village is present including political strength. (about 50 people).

I find the whole thing fascinating, but wondering what all those people make of me and the girl? I do wear a wedding band so that should signal something clearly enough? Or is everyone just pragmatic, understanding that this is reality and nessessary for money to keep flowing from one of the village daughters? Everyone seems to be accepting, and pretty well the whole senior part of the community were involved in this thing where they each put strings around my wrist, and the girls wrist, us kneeling in front of them. Almost felt like a marriage ceremony - certainly made the hairs stand up on the back of my neck!

The girl is open with me, her home is open to me, and all associated with that: her mail, email, bills, bank statements etc.

So what is going on that i don't see?

Ozirob.

Ozirob, congratulations on your new Thai wife!

[QUOTE=Ozirob]So what is going on that i don't see?[/QUOTE]

Hopeful expectation.

She's poor. She's sold her soul and therefore, has little real hope within the culture. Basically, her life is fucked and she knows it. You're a Farang with money. Thais are very out of sight, out of mind - meaning your wife's not around. You are. It's not beyond the realm of possibility (in her mind) that you would keep her as a Gig or something else on the side, and help her family and the immediate world. Thais aren't pragmatic. They're lazy dreamers who look for easy (and short-term) solutions to complex problems. Don't get too sucked in by the warmth and the inclusion. Enjoy it for what it is. But, stay detached and expect at some point or other to be asked for money.

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]Thais aren't pragmatic. They're lazy dreamers who look for easy (and short-term) solutions to complex problems.[/QUOTE]

Absolutely.

Ozirob

Cut through OTH's bizarre and extreme black-and-white take on all things Thai, and you will find lots of good info and advice in his posts. It's unlikely that you are your TG's 'last chance saloon'. There are plenty of Thai guys, mostly (but not exclusively) lowlives, who are attracted to bargirls. But I think that what OTH is trying to say is that you are perceived as a better option, given her current circumstances, by your girl and her family.

Btw, 2041 was joking. There were no monks present at that relationship affirmation party in your GF's village. There weren't any, right?.....were there:D?

[quote=terry terrier]cut through oth's bizarre and extreme black-and-white take on all things thai[/quote]

i don't think my take is all that bizarre or b&w. years of close up and personal experience has given me a rather in-depth knowledge of how these people think and operate. i'm pretty confident that i'm most often correct in my assessments.

my assertion that her life is fucked may seem extreme. but, the prospect of maybe attracting the type of lowlife thai guy, to which you refer, who will surely bring nothing to the relationship but continued poverty and heartache means that in reality, such a girl has zero prospects unless she can snag some hapless farang who doesn't understand the culture.

i see these types of guys every day and can feel nothing but pity for them. by marrying the working girl, they may artificially elevate her status among her peers and within her community. but, at the same time, they lower their own and are largely held in contempt by the vast majority of the population.

it's hard enough for farang living here, without adding insult to injury by getting involved with what is considered a social pariah.

[QUOTE=Terry Terrier]Btw, 2041 was joking. There were no monks present at that relationship affirmation party in your GF's village. There weren't any, right?.....were there:D?[/QUOTE]
Shhhhhh! Don't spoil the fun.

Don't worry guys, my eyes are open, and my head is around the situation. I just was interested to have some observations and different perspectives. And in a general sense, they all are in line with my thoughts.

I will keep you posted! :-) but don't wait for an invitation to a wedding, there won't be one...


Thanks for the contributions!
Ozirob

Is it not the case that some village girls will go down the working girl route in there younger years in persute of baht to do there bit to support family but later go back and regain a degree of respectability in the village scene, marry a thai guy and have kids. I certainly know a few with checkered pasts that have come good. With then the working game was a means to an end. And not the coruptable influence we europeans tend to classify it as. Just my 2 cents worth.

[b]Every LOS Rookie should read this.[/b]

Not sure if this is a Prank or not but it looks genuine to me and I am sure this man has a lot of brothers out there to whom something similar happened.

[url]http://www.phenchaloemphol.com/[/url]

Don't get me wrong, it is not always like this, sometimes, it is the guy who scams the girl (Ask Giotto, I am sure he has a few stories from his Girls).

[QUOTE=Yorkie]Is it not the case that some village girls will go down the working girl route in there younger years in persute of baht to do there bit to support family but later go back and regain a degree of respectability in the village scene, marry a thai guy and have kids. I certainly know a few with checkered pasts that have come good. With then the working game was a means to an end. And not the coruptable influence we europeans tend to classify it as. Just my 2 cents worth.[/QUOTE]

Yorkie,

There are cliches that need to be adhered to on ISG: Golden rule no.1 is that there are [B]no[/B] happy endings in the scenarios that you suggest. Please stop misleading the forum forthwith.

[QUOTE=Terry Terrier]Yorkie,

Golden rule no.1 is that there are [B]no[/B] happy endings in the scenarios that you suggest. Please stop misleading the forum forthwith.[/QUOTE]

(surprised) you mean we can't play the "white Knights" anymore? LOL

[quote=old thai hand]i don't think my take is all that bizarre or b&w. years of close up and personal experience has given me a rather in-depth knowledge of how these people think and operate. i'm pretty confident that i'm most often correct in my assessments.

my assertion that her life is fucked may seem extreme. but, the prospect of maybe attracting the type of lowlife thai guy, to which you refer, who will surely bring nothing to the relationship but continued poverty and heartache means that in reality, such a girl has zero prospects unless she can snag some hapless farang who doesn't understand the culture.

i see these types of guys every day and can feel nothing but pity for them. by marrying the working girl, they may artificially elevate her status among her peers and within her community. but, at the same time, they lower their own and are largely held in contempt by the vast majority of the population.

it's hard enough for farang living here, without adding insult to injury by getting involved with what is considered a social pariah.[/quote]

my thai gf would not dream of taking me back to her village, due to social stigma attached. i therefore had to be excluded from her brother's wedding. obviously she does not want to appear to be a p4p girl.

probably people assume she is the secret 2nd wife of some thai man. commonplace in thailand and probably with much less stigma than being with a farang.

on the other hand she is very worried about severe social problems that i will experience if i should take her back home to australia.
obviously there is some social stigma in australia but it is not as severe as in thailand.

my workmates and friends already know i have been associating with thai girl(s) (more than one) for years.

she cannot easily comprenhend that i can put up with what ever others might think of me in australia, if i have a gf from thailand that is many years younger than me.

[QUOTE=Terry Terrier]Yorkie,

There are cliches that need to be adhered to on ISG: Golden rule no.1 is that there are [B]no[/B] happy endings in the scenarios that you suggest. Please stop misleading the forum forthwith.[/QUOTE]Fortunately I have the benifit of knowing you are wrong TT.

[QUOTE=Mick Licker]My Thai GF would not dream of taking me back to her village, due to social stigma attached. I therefore had to be excluded from her brother's wedding. Obviously she does not want to appear to be a P4P girl.

Probably people assume she is the secret 2nd wife of some Thai man. Commonplace in Thailand and probably with much less stigma than being with a Farang.

On the other hand she is very worried about severe social problems that I will experience if I should take her back home to Australia.
Obviously there is some social stigma in Australia but it is not as severe as in Thailand.

My workmates and friends already know I have been associating with Thai girl(s) (more than one) for years.

She cannot easily comprenhend that I can put up with what ever others might think of me in Australia, if I have a GF from Thailand that is many years younger than me.[/QUOTE]

My situation is similar, in that my GF doesn't want to take me home either because some people in her hometown gossip about her being a BG because she's with a Farang. This is only gossip born of jealousy because many of the girls there actually ask her to help them find a Farang, as well. They know in fact she isn't a BG, and wouldn't need to be as she comes from an excellent family and is reasonaly educated. Other people try to get money out of her because they assume she's rich because she's with me. Her family are the leading family in town because her father is a provincial education official and her brothers are all mid-rank cops, one being in the Thai FBI. Her reasons for not wanting me to go to her town are not because people will think she's in P4P, but because she knows that they will all try to tap me for money. She says that many of the people in her town are low-life scum and she doesn't want to subject me to them. Her family know about me and are actually suprisingly pleased she's with me, because they are impressed with where I work (typical of Thais to be impressed with meaningless status) and more importantly, how I've treated their daughter. I'm about to finally meet her father, who is coming to BKK to see me. Her brother is also getting married, BTW. But, she doesn't want me to go to her town for the wedding, because of the reasons I've stated - the villagers will try to suckewr me into paying for this, that and the other thing.

I am planning on taking her to Canada and she's not concernedd about it at all. I'm sure the age difference (23 and 56) will raise eyebrows. But, we've been together for 2 years and my family are totally fine with it. For one thing, she's not the first young TG I've taken to Canada and I had a history of dating younger women, even before I came to Thailand - my last GF in Canada was 22 when I was 44. Coming from a large city helps if you take a much younger TG back home with you. I can't imagine what it would be like, if I came from a small town - probably a similar scenario to what one would face going upcountry to a TG's village.

[QUOTE=NicFrenchy][b]Every LOS Rookie should read this.[/b]

Not sure if this is a Prank or not but it looks genuine to me and I am sure this man has a lot of brothers out there to whom something similar happened.

[url]http://www.phenchaloemphol.com/[/url]

Don't get me wrong, it is not always like this, sometimes, it is the guy who scams the girl (Ask Giotto, I am sure he has a few stories from his Girls).[/QUOTE]

It seems completely genuine. But, you just have to look at this tattooed skank (ugly as sin, as well) and her family to know they're all bad news. It's such a cliche. The guy was as naiive as one could possibly be and even after it went bad, quite quickly in fact, he still hung in there. What an idiot.

However, I think his declarative statement about all people in Isaan being liars and bad (not to mention poor) just shows his limited knowledge and experience. He got what he deserved. Caveat emptor!

[QUOTE=NicFrenchy][b]Every LOS Rookie should read this.[/b]

Not sure if this is a Prank or not but it looks genuine to me and I am sure this man has a lot of brothers out there to whom something similar happened.

[url]http://www.phenchaloemphol.com/[/url]

Don't get me wrong, it is not always like this, sometimes, it is the guy who scams the girl (Ask Giotto, I am sure he has a few stories from his Girls).[/QUOTE]Hello Everyone. I went and read this sob story about how this guy got screwed, he sure is bitter. But his expectations were way too high, especially when a TG is concerned. He fell in love with her on the 2nd day! He didn't even know the girl, and yet he fell head over heels with in love with her after 24 hours? C'mon.

If you really want to meet a nice Thai Girl, here's my advice: Stay the hell out of the 1am NANA parking lot fiasco, the NEP, or Soi Cowboy. You will NEVER find your soulmate in any of those places. When I am in Thailand, I stay far away from the Soi Cowboy scene, and the NEP scene. Of course, I can't say that I have never cruised around the Nana Hotel at 1am, but I wasn't looking for my soulmate, but rather just a nice looking piece of ass for the evening.

The best TG's are the ones that haven't been spoiled by the above. Meet a professional girl who has a college degree, who's got more going for her than just a killer face and nice body, who doesn't have ANY baggage (the poor village scenario, the sick mother, a sick father, the sister with two kids who can't make ends meet). The girl you want to meet and JUST MAYBE have half a chance with has a 8 to 5 job, and comes from a middle-class kind of family.

On my way back to the states, I met this TG who was travelling to the east coast to visit her friend for a few months. She was well read, had a master degree from a US midwestern university, spoke great English, and she was really easy on the eyes (half of them are!). We flew from BKK to Incheon, and had a great time talking, and exchanged phone numbers, e-mail addresses, and we'll see how that goes. The only bad thing is, she's 20 years younger than me.

Visitors and newbies going to Thailand for the first time, remember this: you're living a dream. In Thailand, the farang becomes the hunted one for many girls. For you, it's like fishing. In a barrel. But buyer beware.

[QUOTE=Arizonan]
The girl you want to meet and JUST MAYBE have half a chance with has a 8 to 5 job, and comes from a middle-class kind of family.

On my way back to the states, I met this TG who was travelling to the east coast to visit her friend for a few months. She was well read, had a master degree from a US midwestern university, spoke great English, and she was really easy on the eyes (half of them are!). We flew from BKK to Incheon, and had a great time talking, and exchanged phone numbers, e-mail addresses, and we'll see how that goes. The only bad thing is, she's 20 years younger than me.[/QUOTE]

If you're a visitor, your chances are next to zero to meet the kind of girl you describe. You were lucky. That's all. But, generally, unless you live and work here, the chances are slim in finding an educated (especially western-educated), middle-class TG. I have what you describe (not western-educated, though), who's actually 33 years younger than me. But, I've been here a long time and went through a lot of girls before finding her.

But, good luck with your girl. Perhaps, it might work out because at least she's been to the States and can get a visa.

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]If you're a visitor, your chances are next to zero to meet the kind of girl you describe. You were lucky. That's all. But, generally, unless you live and work here, the chances are slim in finding an educated (especially western-educated), middle-class TG. I have what you describe (not western-educated, though), who's actually 33 years younger than me. But, I've been here a long time and went through a lot of girls before finding her.

But, good luck with your girl. Perhaps, it might work out because at least she's been to the States and can get a visa.[/QUOTE]Hello Old Thai Hand.

She's not my girl, and I doubt anything will come of it. However, I've been to Thailand enough to know that what you say is true. Some guys, despite the warnings of those with good intentions, have to find out themselves, and I'm sure you'll agree with that.

I fell in love with a beautiful Thai girl many years ago, thought it would work out. She was bright, college-educated, never did the bar thing. Met her at a coffee shop in MBK of all places. But the visa thing with the states just frazzled both of us, and she lost patience with the process. She's a faded memory now, but I still think of her fondly now and then.

For now, I'll just visit Thailand when I can. That's enough for me!

Ehh who knows? Sure a lot of websites this guy's promoting. It could be the slickest advert yet.

But the scenario is common. Guy's cannot say they're not responsible when they behave like this. This guy ignored every freaking sign/signal and STILL wanted to take his skanker back (did anyone notice how much GOLD was dripping off that 'ho?).

This isn't love; it's dependency.

You can't exactly blame the thieves when you hold out your wallet and wear a sign saying "Please Rob Me".

I have had my own learning experiences. Thank God I've cut them off long before this guy did.

[quote]If you're a visitor, your chances are next to zero to meet the kind of girl you describe.[/quote]

Then I got extreemly lucky the last time I was in BKK. :)

I have dated Thai women before but it seemed this time more women were interested. I went out on two dates last time I was there and was given phone numbers (never called) from two others. These always came up from otherwise innocuous conversations (in Thai) about themselves, what I was doing, how I learned Thai, etc. I enjoy meeting/talking with people so it's natural when meeting single women. My Thai isn't perfect but it seems as long as you're polite and comport yourself well it doesn't matter.

They weren't all middle class. But none were bargirls. I never scored with any of them, but then I didn't feel like trying to pursue a relationship and I didn't want to get mired in it just to get laid.

Thai women can be incredibly aggressive. You don't have to be superstud to get this attention but you DEFINITELY don't want to be Joe Short Pants Wearing Tourist Lech.

You can get grandma asking if you have a wife and wanting to fix you up. I've had 'regular' women call my hotel room, ask me out with friends, come over etc.

Here's where the disconnect is; Guy comes to Thailand. Enjoys the 'Point And Click' nightlife and extrapolates that to everywhere else in Thailand. Bzzt! Wrong answer. It amazes my how even some ex-pats living here for years cannot turn off the beer bar behavior when they're in more respectable company.

[quote]On my way back to the states, I met this TG who was travelling to the east coast to visit her friend for a few months. She was well read, had a master degree from a US midwestern university, spoke great English, and she was really easy on the eyes (half of them are!). We flew from BKK to Incheon, and had a great time talking, and exchanged phone numbers, e-mail addresses, and we'll see how that goes. The only bad thing is, she's 20 years younger than me. [/quote]

Very cool. I'm in the 4th month of dating a Vietnamese gal 15 years younger than me I met locally. She has a business degree from Saigon and a bachelors in Math from a University in my town so it's not impossible to do it stateside.

It's not perfect but the sex is incredible. The age difference hasn't been a big issue among us (my keeping a return trip ticket to Thailand has!).

It's just a rule of mine , but anything over 2 hours driving classifies as a 'long distance' relationship, although if I met someone on a plane like you did I'd probably try to squeeze a weekend or two out of it. Heh heh.

[quote]There are cliches that need to be adhered to on ISG: Golden rule no.1 is that there are no happy endings in the scenarios that you suggest. Please stop misleading the forum forthwith.[/quote]

It's not a cliche, it's a truism.

Marrying a bargilr is like a guy who fell out of a plane without a parachute who survived. It can happen, but no one's suggesting you try it.

I know of one guy of all who married a bar girl who's still happily married. He's a Kiwi who used to own a bar on Walking st. with a well known forum. If you know of whom I speak she's a great lady.

BUT, she's the only one I know of. Marrying a bargirl is Kryptonite to your happy ending in life.

[QUOTE=Zarnon]
Thai women can be incredibly aggressive. You don't have to be superstud to get this attention but you DEFINITELY don't want to be Joe Short Pants Wearing Tourist Lech.
[/QUOTE]

Here in Thailand, relationships are short lived and fragile. The trend is to have several opportunities rotating into play.

Generally, if a girl has several guys on the string, they rotate between their guys to keep them all on the the line and active. She may or may not be sleeping with more than one, but she'll be meeting with and cultivating those other relationships just in case the primary one goes sour.

[quote]Here in Thailand, relationships are short lived and fragile. The trend is to have several opportunities rotating into play. [/quote]

Seems that way doesn't it? Do you think it's more apt to happen in Thai-foreigner relationships? May-December ones? Rich-poor?

Everyone I know over there except for two guys has been divorced, cheated on, cheats on, has multiple 'tilacs' etc. It seems they're usually accumulating hookers, quasi-hookers and women working in stores/stalls, etc.

A couple trips ago, I went to dinner with a buddy who was dating a bitchy yet respectable Univ. gal. We had a some tag-alongs who were your typical 'gotta rehash each paid for conquest the night before' guys. Some of them lived there yet seemed so entrenched in the farang ghetto they couldn't tell the difference.

[QUOTE=NicFrenchy]Here in Thailand, relationships are short lived and fragile. The trend is to have several opportunities rotating into play.

Generally, if a girl has several guys on the string, they rotate between their guys to keep them all on the the line and active. She may or may not be sleeping with more than one, but she'll be meeting with and cultivating those other relationships just in case the primary one goes sour.[/QUOTE]

This is a little cynical and over-generalized. It's true in some cases and does depend a lot on the girl's background. But, TGs are usually very loyal and relationships can last as long as anywhere else, in my experience.

One does have to get off the well-worn path that most Farang follow, and find a respectable girl - not always an easy thing for a non-Thai to be able to figure out the difference.

[QUOTE=NicFrenchy]Here in Thailand, relationships are short lived and fragile. The trend is to have several opportunities rotating into play.

Generally, if a girl has several guys on the string, they rotate between their guys to keep them all on the the line and active. She may or may not be sleeping with more than one, but she'll be meeting with and cultivating those other relationships just in case the primary one goes sour.[/QUOTE]

You are absolutely correct if you date "bar girls"; but, if you date respectible Thai you will find the exact opposite of what you describe.

[quote]You are absolutely correct if you date "bar girls"; but, if you date respectible Thai you will find the exact opposite of what you describe.[/quote]

I was with a GTG for three years (two in the states) and she was very good to me.

OTOH I've been off the 'beaten path' to bars where Thai women pay the men for dancing and sex. I'm not sure how many are 'respectable' but they didn't look tatooed and Isaanish to me. I'm sure it's not the 'norm' but it's not all black and white, you think?

Thai songs deal with women's infidelity the same way we do over here ('Taan Fai Gow'). Why would they be popular unless they somehow mirrored part of Thai society?

At the same time I think my chances of meeting someone faithful are better in Thailand. I'd definitely date/marry a GTG than someone over here. The ones I've been with have been very nice (and stubborn!), took care of me well and were probably better than I deserved. When I look back on it I was the one playing around. Argh.

I knew two guys there truly outside the 'scene'. One was married to a very nice woman and she stood by and supported him through some tough times (even went to JKT with him). At the same time he gave up being a player.

And I agree getting off the beaten path is important. I have been guilty of going, mongering, leaving, although that's changed the last few years. I've done some volunteer work and may do so again. It's one way to start long-lasting friendships with 'regular' Thai people and by extension, women.

[QUOTE=Zarnon]Thai songs deal with women's infidelity the same way we do over here ('Taan Fai Gow'). Why would they be popular unless they somehow mirrored part of Thai society?[/QUOTE]

"Taan Fai Gow" isn't about infidelity. "Taan Fai Gow" (basically trying to start a fire with burnt coal) is an idiom used to refer to people who try to 'rekindle' a romance with an ex-GF/BF.

[quote]"Taan Fai Gow" isn't about infidelity. "Taan Fai Gow" (basically trying to start a fire with burnt coal) is an idiom used to refer to people who try to 'rekindle' a romance with an ex-GF/BF.[/quote]

That is very cool to know. I didn't know that.

I'm referencing it from the song 'Taan Fai Gow' by Bird which dealt with this 'rekindling' but at the expense of another guy. It explicitly deals with a lying, cheating Thai girl promising her love to a guy meanwhile slipping off and seeing her ex. Over and fuckin' over again. In the end her boyfriend chucks the engagement ring.

Bird has a ton of songs dealing with him getting burned by a girl (which is ironic since he's gay).

Sunyaa Muuh Sanyaa? Very popular song by Thai Thinawut about a guy who works three years in the boonies to make enough money for Sinsot, only to find out the gal had lied to him when he gets back.

I want to ask my ex because she can provide a lot longer list than I could. We had this discussion once. It was really interesting.

I'm not saying these are Thailand or Thai people but the themes they ecompass are the same ones foreigners deal with; from love to betrayal. Music, at least in part, is a reflection of its society otherwise it woudn't resonate with it.

[QUOTE=Zarnon]
Sunyaa Muuh Sanyaa? Very popular song by Thai Thinawut about a guy who works three years in the boonies to make enough money for Sinsot, only to find out the gal had lied to him when he gets back.[/QUOTE]

Ya, I know this song quite well. At the risk of raising some flames, I think there are more incidents of infidelity among the rural poor, especially in Isaan, largely because of five factors. Firstly, they don't have a lot to do, but fuck around when planting season is finished. Secondly, marriages are mostly ceremonial, not legal so that both parties don't feel as much a sense of committment and can just leave the marriage at any time. Thirdly, due to economics, they often have to spend time away from each other, principally in BKK, to earn money and therefore often find someone else. Fourthly, the family unit in rural Isaan is often not very stable and therefore provides a poor role model. And lastly, the culture doesn't possess that healthy dose of Judeao-Christian, Victorian guilt that keeps us less likely to stray in Western culture. Further to that, at least for the men, multiple partners is a cultural norm, what with the tradition of the Mia Noi. Now, with a bit more equality, and external influences from media (just watch Thai TV, for Gawd's sake) and women especially upcountry are also getting Gigs on the side, as well. My sense of rural Isaan culture, as it relates to this issue is that relationships tend to be far more fluid (surprisingly) than those in the city among the better educated classes.

At least, that's my experience. I've had Thai women cheat on me in the past and they were always from Isaan and always rural poor, which is one of the many reasons I don't associate with that type of TG, anymore. My current GF is also from Isaan, but is not a farm-girl, is better educated and middle class and seems to be incredibly loyal to me. I think it has a lot to do with her family, which are very stable and have instilled in her very strong values.

In the end, it comes down to the quality of the girl, her background and upbringing.

[QUOTE=Zarnon]<cut>
Sunyaa Muuh Sanyaa? Very popular song by Thai Thinawut about a guy who works three years in the boonies to make enough money for Sinsot, only to find out the gal had lied to him when he gets back.

I want to ask my ex because she can provide a lot longer list than I could. We had this discussion once. It was really interesting.

I'm not saying these are Thailand or Thai people but the themes they ecompass are the same ones foreigners deal with; from love to betrayal. Music, at least in part, is a reflection of its society otherwise it woudn't resonate with it.[/QUOTE]
Both "Bird" Thongchai and Thai Thanawut are very popular singers of course. Therefore we can find their stuff on the internet. I have also bought CDs from both of them previously.

Here is the song from Thai Thanawut on UTube
"Sanyaa Meua Sanyaa":
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39iTY_abxyA&feature=related[/url]

Also Khon Suay Jai Dam (Beautiful Girl - Black Heart):
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfKrkAMzlzY[/url]

Another good one:
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4rh7GCaN8s&feature=related[/url]

And now for the Lyrics of "Old Flame" or (Coals of an Old Fire still burning) Thaan Fai Gao (the one by Bird):
[url]http://www.birdthongchai.com/lyric/lyric_thaanfaigao.htm[/url]
He (the singer) thinks she is still pining for her old flame
(which is I guess mental infidelity).
Is physical infidelity worse than mental?
Of course not. Mongers fuck around all the time.
It doesn't mean we are in love with those we play up with.

A Great video for the newbies or for the ones that look to the internet for finding your loved one...

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wGBl2eoz_4&feature=related[/url]

You can also look at this one, another Emmy award winner! [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cV0y53yhQFo&feature=related[/url]

This video was especially painful for me to watch as I can empathize with "Phil" completely because of my two failed marital relationships with foreign women(not Thai, however) I have experienced in my past life!

One of these relationships mirrored "Phils" situation and the other was different as it was played out in the native country of my former spouse.

I believe my situations, however, were more painfully experienced as the women were of my race(Caucasian) and religious(Judeo/Christian) background so you would expect that, at least, to work in my favor-it didn't!

At least "Phil" can attribute some of the reason(s), whether true or not, his marital relationship failed was because of cultural, racial and religious(and/or) differences as well as the all the inherent problems of "importing" a women(either spouse or girlfriend) into an different/unfamiliar culture.

I am a firm believer, based on a multitude of past life's experiences, that the emotional make-up of women, regarding their attraction for or their non-attraction for certain men(or boys/girls/women, if you will) is constant and stays the same throughout their lives(i.e. the "attraction genes" are the same from when they were born until when they die and there is only a very slight chance that age/life's situation will change them).

Trying to "read between the lines" in "Phil's" situation is pretty mundane as IMO, I would guess it "looks like what it is"; a middle-aged man, not very "good looking"(IMO), frustrated and miserable being alone and(possibly) a "player" in the local dating scene(bars, singles dances, dating services, internet match sites, etc.) with older, unattractive, demanding, moody, undependable, unpredictable, materialistic and make you "earn" sexual favors(who exhibit any or all of these characteristics) women.

IMO, "Phil" saw the oportunity to marry Anchana which would be a "lifetime ticket" to a women who was much younger, more attractive, more sexually active/desirable, and, if you will, a more obedient caretaker who he NEVER would have to worry about and who would "ALWAYS be there for him, for better or worse".

He, and uncountable other "Phils", violated what, IMHO, I believe to be Rule #1 for understanding a woman's attraction "gene":

"A women is going to "like"(i.e. be attracted to) the boy/man(or, in some cases, the girl/woman) she is going to "like". Any attempt to "make" her like you by any means is "buying" her time and is a complete waist of yours."

Sometimes I just think some of the people on this forum are being crazy!
We all agree if you want a good, long term relationship, your chances are better of the girl is not a BG. We say meet a nice middle class or professional woman. Then others say, well, that's so hard to do!

Nonsense. Okay, if you're a coal miner in Australia, chances are you won't find a lady cardiologist to be your paramour. Would you find one at home? If you raise rattlesnakes for religions in West Vriginia, chances are you are not going to meet and seetle down with a beautiful Buddhist investment banker.

If you raise rattlesnakes, go hang out at the Pasteur Institute in Bangkok and discuss your career with the people who work there. If you're a coal miner ... well, maybe you should just go back to Oz. Thais are very class concious. They are very unlikely to socialize with someone below their class.

Another thing, if you do meet that nice middle class or professional woman (and I do NOT mean women of the OLDEST profession) you do yourself no good to mention how nice they are after all the *****s you've been with. You'd better be telling them you've never been to Soi Cowboy. I told my lady friend that when I first got to Bangkok I walked over to Nana Plaza just to see what I'd read about. Told her how it digusted me to see all those tattooed skanks and I never went back. That way, if I slip and mention something, I'm covered.

I just don't understand the guys who pick up a bar girl, screw her six ways to Sunday then expect her to change her life and be the ideal GF. Would you go to Times Square, pick up a hooker and fall in love?

So, my advice:
1) have reasonable expectations - hang out at places in which you are part of the social or educational class
2) by the way, a BG probably won't care if you're 30 years older than her - other ladies in Thailand may be tolerant of a few years but don't expect miracles
3) if you just gotta get laid tonight, go to a bar or massage parlor - professional ladies realize having a farang in their life will seriously complicate thier lives - be prepared for a courtship period
4) if you go to a P4P lady, use a condom - you won't make any points with your middle class paramour if you drop a case of clap in her lap
5) be prepare to spend time talking, getting the lady to see you have things in common, that you can be interesting and fun to be with
6) when you finally get a "decent" girl to go out with you, think 1950s - bring flowers, candy, little gifts - save jewelry for later
7) the best way is to meet her brother first - IMHO - I knew my current lady's brother professionally for a couple of months and then accidentally met his sister - he liked and trusted me so it was a short and quick path into her confidence
8) never - ever - mention you've been with a hooker - not to her and not to her brother
9) learn some Thai - a few words will go a long way - especially when you meet her family; then keep learning but don't expect her to be your teacher, you khii-niao son-of-a-*****
10) remember the very many basic differences in your cultures, the way you see and react to things - be calm, accepting and flexible: chances are she will
11) Don't post on ISG if your lady can look over your shoulder...

Oh, damn. I know there are more basic rules but I can't seem to think of any right now. Hey guys, wanna help me expand this list?

[QUOTE=Animby]2) by the way, a BG probably won't care if you're 30 years older than her - other ladies in Thailand may be tolerant of a few years but don't expect miracles[/QUOTE]

I agree with everything you say except this one. Age differences are still part of the culture. The most famous example of a May-December romance is Pui (former Miss Thailand/Miss Universe) who at 36 married a 76 y.o. (multi-millionaire) lawyer from NY. I don't think it was the money, though as she's also quite well-off.

I know numerous older Farang like myself who are with regular, middle-class TGs who are much younger. My GF as I've mentioned several times is 23 and I'm 56. She's not after money. She come from a solid, middle-class family (her father is a retired govt. minister and is quite comfortable). She may have a "Daddy" fixation, perhaps. But, whatever, it works for me.

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]...I don't think it was the money, though as she's also quite well-off...[/QUOTE]

Of course it is the money. No one seeks a rich partner more than a rich woman - the poor woman is satisfied with any fellow with some money, but the rich woman must find a man richer than herself. This is the requirement in any culture, western or thai.

But as for all the recommendations from Animby, well I have dated a couple of middle class educated Thai girls and I didn't lie or pretend or give gifts. I was just myself as I would be with, for example, the college girls I dated back home. Everything went fine. And I certainly didn't pretend that I didn't go to hookers - for a farang in Thailand to pretend so is probably the ultimate insult to a girl's intelligence.

Being in Bangkok as a farang for any amount of time and telling any but the most ignorant of a Thai woman that you have NEVER been with a hooker and expecting her to believe it is the ULTIMATE of "fooling yourself".LOL

[QUOTE=Opebo]And I certainly didn't pretend that I didn't go to hookers - for a farang in Thailand to pretend so is probably the ultimate insult to a girl's intelligence.[/QUOTE]

And you live in Thailand?
Of course the girls will suspect you went for it, but they would prefer you being in denial or keeping quiet about it.

[QUOTE=NicFrenchy]And you live in Thailand?
Of course the girls will suspect you went for it, but they would prefer you being in denial or keeping quiet about it.[/QUOTE]

It's already pretty well established that Opebo knows nothing about Thai women, despite living here for while.

[QUOTE=Opebo]Of course it is the money. No one seeks a rich partner more than a rich woman - the poor woman is satisfied with any fellow with some money, but the rich woman must find a man richer than herself. This is the requirement in any culture, western or thai...[/QUOTE]

Think you could lend me that book of requirements when you have a chance? Or maybe you havent published it yet.

[QUOTE=Opebo]...But as for all the recommendations from Animby, well I have dated a couple of middle class educated Thai girls and I didn't lie or pretend or give gifts. I was just myself as I would be with, for example, the college girls I dated back home. Everything went fine. And I certainly didn't pretend that I didn't go to hookers - for a farang in Thailand to pretend so is probably the ultimate insult to a girl's intelligence.[/QUOTE]

Were you as forthcoming with 'going to hookers' with the 'college girls you dated back home' as you were with the 'middle class educated Thai girls'?

[size=1]Just curious.[/size]

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]I know numerous older Farang like myself who are with regular, middle-class TGs who are much younger. My GF as I've mentioned several times is 23 and I'm 56.[/QUOTE]

You're right, of course. I, too, have a much younger ladyfriend (22 years difference). I think her acceptance of the age difference is due to her mother, at 19, marrying a man of 40-something. But I have perceived a growing shift in this attitude ... at least in city girls. Me? I like old-fashioned girls.

Opebo, yes the girl is going to assume we have been with hookers. Her family will assume so, too. Hell, her daddy's probably been with a P4P once or twice. I maintain, however, to admit it would eventually be the end of the relationship. The middle and upper classes are simply too cautious about their images. They fear if their daughters date farang, the girls will be perceived as *****s. If you admit to your whoring ways... well!

I maintain that even if her brother comes up to you and says he saw you in Patpong last night with topless hookers on either side of you and a third between your legs banging her head against the table, you look him directly in the eye and say, "Wasn't me! You know how I feel about *****s..."

[QUOTE=Animby]
I maintain that even if her brother comes up to you and says he saw you in Patpong last night with topless hookers on either side of you and a third between your legs banging her head against the table, you look him directly in the eye and say, "Wasn't me! You know how I feel about *****s..."[/QUOTE]

That’s it. Never admit to anything and deny everything in block. That’s the only way. But refrain to push your luck and ask the brother what he was doing in Patpong at such a late hour. And above all do not suggest that he might have been there selling sex himself, possibly his own body, which must have been the case as the only Thai people one can encounter in Patpong are those who try to sell you something.

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]It's already pretty well established that Opebo knows nothing about Thai women, despite living here for while.[/QUOTE]

OTH, your characterization is inaccurate. Of course I am aware that the ordinary false, dimwitted, moneygrubbing Thai woman who lives traditionally and in thrall to her family will expect the sort of duplicitousness you describe, even between the two of you. But I am more discerning in my dating practices, confining them to highly educated, open minded, and Westernized women. These are not quite so tiresome as the girls with whom you consort, who apparently expect gifts, lies, and so forth.

However I would never discuss anything honestly with a parent or relative of a girlfriend in either the US or Thailand - family is a horror, and the older generation everwhere is enmired in prejudice.

from The Nation...


THAI SOCIETY
The benefits of mixed marriages

Published on Apr 22, 2008

Thai women find security and comfort while farang men discover the joy that living with a large family can bring

Subhatra Bhumiprabhas

The Nation

The Cambodian Government recently suspended marriages between local women and foreigners after hearing from the International Organisation for Migration about the plight of women who migrate to their spouses' countries. But in Thailand, a migration of foreign or "farang" husbands to live in their Thai wives' rural villages in the northeastern provinces (Isaan region) has revealed other sides of cross-cultural marriages.

Most foreign husbands today know well that they are not married only to a Thai wife but also to her large family, senior anthropologist Suriya Smutkupt said. Suriya had talked to farang sons-in-law in Isaan province.

"I would like to hear the views of farang husbands as many studies already reflect Thai wives' perspectives of marrying foreigners," he said.

From 2005 to 2007, Suriya travelled intensively from his hometown in Chiang Mai province in the north to talk to farang husbands in villages in the northeastern provinces of Khon Kaen, Nakhon Rachasima (also known as Khorat) and Udon Thani.

"They told me their wives' large families gave them warmth that they could never find in their own countries," Suriya said.

Also, foreign sons-in-law of Isaan find all the conveniences of their home countries here and can stay connected to their friends and relatives via the Internet, he said.

Suriya spoke to 34 men from Austria, Belgium, England, France, Germany, Switzer-land, Sweden, the Netherlands and the United States.

The farangs were seasoned travellers to Asian countries. Most had previous marriages with farang women, Suriya said.

Their Isaan wives are of rural, low-income and low-education families and many couples met in tourist destinations such as Pattaya, he said.

Some husbands said they did not want to marry virgins or young women. They said they understood that Thai women become sex workers because their families are poor.

A farang husband asked his Thai wife to forget the past and begin a new life with him. However, some confessed that their perspective on Thai wives and their ex-wives was different, Suriya said.

"It's interesting that these farang husbands encouraged their wives to speak English in order to be a bridge between other women in their communities and their husbands' friends and relatives," he said.

David is from England and now lives in Chiang Mai province, which is his Thai wife's home.

"I am a 'farang' who married a honest, respectable village woman from a poor family. She has survived the hardships of being rejected by a Thai man, left to bring up a young daughter alone, and being seen as someone to be avoided in case she wants to borrow money," he said.

"We help local women in similar circumstances have a chance at a better life by finding them a good farang man," he said.

Last year, David and his wife offered translation and English classes to help women in their community communicate with foreign men.

The family has also started a website to introduce them to westerners looking for the kind of family life that respectable Thai ladies are renowned for.


...AND A LETTER IN RESPONSE...


Negative stereotypes plague mixed marriages

Re: "The benefits of mixed marriage", News, April 22.

In response to "The benefits of mixed marriage", I have to say that article gave me quite a chuckle. For starters, I find it laughable that somebody would start a Website to link poor Thai women with lonely farang men looking for a sweet little wife to settle down in the village with. Do men really think that if these women weren't cash-strapped they would be so willing to take them into their lives?

I suppose many don't even care and in the end it's a case of to each his own. But I'm tired of reading all these stories about so-called knights-in-shining-armour who swoop in and rescue poor prostitutes, almost like a scene out of "Pretty Woman". All these stories are doing is perpetrating the mixed-marriage stereotype.

I have many male farang friends with intelligent, career-oriented Thai girlfriends and wives whom they consider their equals, proving that not every mixed couple can be painted with the same brush. Sadly, they tell me that people often look down on them, assuming they picked their wife up in some beer bar in Pattaya.

As a farang woman, I already know the responses to this letter are going to dub me as "bitter". I promise you, no farang has ever left me for a Thai, so I have no axe to grind. In reality, I have lived in Thailand for six years, have many Thai female friends, am married to a wonderful Thai man and have two kids, so I'm well aware of the cultural and family dynamics. And personally, having your mother-in-law hovering around day and night isn't all that great, but maybe that's just me.

Cathy Patumsuwon
Bangkok



I actually agree with the letter written by this woman. Guys who marry hookers are lacking in something. If someone can't have a relationship with a normal woman, who is not a hooker, then there's something seriously wrong with him. I suspect that most guys who meet and "fall in love" with the slapper from Pattaya are incapable of forming a normal relationship with a normal Thai woman.

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]I actually agree with the letter written by this woman. Guys who marry hookers are lacking in something. If someone can't have a relationship with a normal woman, who is not a hooker, then there's something seriously wrong with him. I suspect that most guys who meet and "fall in love" with the slapper from Pattaya are incapable of forming a normal relationship with a normal Thai woman.[/QUOTE]

You are such a romantic.....

[QUOTE=Tansak KTV]You are such a romantic.....[/QUOTE]

The bucollic village life with their extended Isaan family, as extolled by the Farang in this week's news story, notwithstanding...

...one statistic from an earlier study from last year that puts to rest the illusion of success of the Farang/bargirl/village girl relationship/marriage is the fact that 400 divorce cases of mixed marriages were filed in Khon Kaen province alone in 2007. The main reasons cited for such an alarmingly high failure rate weres culture clashes and most importantly, that the girls in question all thought their "knight in shining armour" was considerably richer than he turned out to be.

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]The bucollic village life with their extended Isaan family, as extolled by the Farang in this week's news story, notwithstanding....[/QUOTE]

OTH... I said you are such a romantic which by no means was a flame. The story, I thought was funny and I love hearing your negative comments and slams on P4P girls and stupid caveman farang invading your thailand, as well as your sparing with other members. Just like I love to hear from RA, Opebo, and many others. All of your folks inputs often make me laugh and remember events I've seen or done myself.

Of course I know many marriages between farang and P4P that are failed, I know many guys who donate huge dollars to bar girls and I've supported some before in the past too. However I walk in knowing what I'm getting into and I never put in more then I can affoard to lose because I will lose it. To me it's gambling but call me a white night that I like to try to let the girl and her family a better off then when I found her. Today I had "one" (of the many) million baht questions asked to me and I immediately thought about ISG folks and yourself slamming the heck out of me ;). Would I marry a thai girl even if she was P4P... sure I would... if I found the right one. But that hasn't happened yet nor do I think anyone will marry such an old ugly guy like myself. I'll meet you in BKK and have a drink and you can see what I'm talking about, I promise not to wear a Singha shirt and I promise to shave my knuckles... hahahaha.

So relax and chill... yes many folks dream of walking into LOS... finding a girl who can perform like a porn star who is 20 or 30 years younger and think everything will be a bed of roses. But they deserve to be taken for a ride IMHO and good for the girls if they can take a few for a ride. I personally enjoy hearing how a Issan farm girl can fleece a businessman from overseas.

I now claim that you are our boards Romantic Advisor... whenever anyone starts to feel even a little bit of liking for a lady in thai call OTH... he'll slap some sense into you.

Cheers Mate...

[QUOTE=Tansak KTV]
So relax and chill... yes many folks dream of walking into LOS... finding a girl who can perform like a porn star who is 20 or 30 years younger and think everything will be a bed of roses. But they deserve to be taken for a ride IMHO and good for the girls if they can take a few for a ride. I personally enjoy hearing how a Issan farm girl can fleece a businessman from overseas.
[/QUOTE]

I am not sure I would enjoy the fleece as much as you would, especially when the SOD is not a businessman but a poor old chap that was already taken for a ride (Married & Divorced) in his own country.

I know some guys arrive here and are very naive, fragile and just looking to revamp their self esteem/Ego. I can imagine the pain the guy would have to go through after the first divorce, having to give away half of what he worked for... now imagine him coming to Thailand looking for the Love his wife refused to give him for the last couple years, finding a lady 30 years younger than him who makes him feel like a million bucks for a while only to screw him just like the first wife did. While it might be amusing, I am feeling sorry for that John Doe and, god knows he has a lot of Brothers here in Thailand.

Of course, the above is only from the man's point of view, if you look at it with the Issan Farmer Girl's eyes, what do you see? A sweet looking guy looking for love, the perfect pigeon that will easily give away his money if told he is superman and well taken care of in bed. Issan farm girl knows which of the 2 brains to stroke, and it certainly isn't the one doing the thinking ;)

[QUOTE=Tansak KTV]I now claim that you are our boards Romantic Advisor... whenever anyone starts to feel even a little bit of liking for a lady in thai call OTH... he'll slap some sense into you. Cheers Mate...[/QUOTE]

I didn't think it was a flame, BTW. There's nothing wrong with feeling romantic about a Thai woman. But, just pick the right type of woman. It's simple logic. I would bet that none of the guys who do so here would ever think to marry a hooker in their home country. So, even after all my years here, I am still stunned every time I see some hapless geezer with his hooker farm wife in tow. Each to his own, I guess. But, other than sex, which will get pretty same same, even with a former pro, what can there possibly be in it for him? Certainly, there's zero intellectual stimulii - afterall, her idea of critical thought is whether to have 'poo' with her 'pra ra' in her som tam tonight for dinner. These girls are as dumb as posts. Mind you, I have seen some pretty dumb and dumber Farang with these girls. So, maybe it's a level playing field intellectually speaking.

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand] These girls are as dumb as posts. Mind you, I have seen some pretty dumb and dumber Farang with these girls. So, maybe it's a level playing field intellectually speaking.[/QUOTE]

Someone suggested a while ago that you have been hurt by an Issan BG which is why you direct so much vitriol and hatred towards them and boy you sure do add a lot of credence to that thought. The idea that you can devote so much energy and countless hours with post after post bashing Issan (Brown-skinned) hookers (deny it as I'm sure you will but you have enough post here that says otherwise) says that your interest in this subject is far more than that of a neutral observer. Professor, you are obsessed with these people, but this board seems to be your prescription for mental relief so keep bashing them. I wonder how many people are really listening to you and who are you deterring or reaching with your repeated theme? I suspect no one is listening and I will pass on commenting on the intellect of the normal girls.

The point about Thai/Falang divorce rates is so misleading because its not as if the divorce rates between regular Thais are so low, in fact the report I saw indicated that it was much higher. Any inter-racial/cultural union will face challenges, why should it be any different here? I agree that hookers in general the world over will probably not contribute to a healthy matrimonial union but certainly don't subscribe to the theory that regular girls any where will make better companions. Take a look at worldwide divorce stats, its high just about every where. Sure some hookers will deceive and cheat you but so will normal regular hi-so educated women the world over.

In the end its all about character, some hookers have more trust worthy character than normal women who disguise their deception behind their smile and status. There’s no guarantee that because you enter relationship with these so call normal girls your life will be any more full-filling than if you entered into one with a hooker and I certainly am not advocating relationship with hookers. Oh and some normal educated women are clandestine hookers, especially in Thailand as I’m sure you know which is another story. If these old geezers want to marry young hookers to fulfill their needs, let them be. You and I won't do it but we are in no position to look down our noses at them as if they were some inferior beings. It’s a beautiful world out there man, show some love will ya? You have a lot of experience to share but why does it mostly have to be so mercurially negative towards the masses?

_______________________________________________________________

Thailand’s divorce rate increases

BANGKOK: -- Thailand’s divorce rate has risen significantly over the past decade.
Thailand’s national statistics released on Monday has shown that the divorce rate among Thai couples has risen over the past ten years. In 2003, the average rate of divorce was 1.28 couples per thousand people, compared to less than one couple per thousand in 1994.
The number of couples, registered as husband and wife at governmental registration offices across the country has also dramatically declined. According to the figures in 2003, the number of registered Thai marriages was only five per 1,000 people, a fall from seven in 1994.
The largest fall in registered marriages was in the country’s north-eastern region.
Only 5 marriages per thousand were registered in 2003, compared to 8, ten years ago. Government statisticians fear that these figures show a weakening of the family institution in Thailand. The statistics shows a gradual lose of faith in the family, according to government officials. This could lead to other society problems, they warned. The government has been promoting a return to family values in order to preserve a loving and peaceful Thai society.

-

[QUOTE=Run Mann]You have a lot of experience to share but why does it mostly have to be so mercurially negative towards the masses?[/QUOTE]

I really like this post, even if you take the [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord140][CodeWord140][/url] out of me a bit. It gives me pause.

But, no, I really haven't been hurt by any woman from Isaan, bargirl or otherwise. I've had overall good experiences with the Isaan women who I have known. Although, few of them were bargirls. Actually, the only Thai woman who ever did me wrong in a big way was one of my ex-students who came from Saraburi, not far from BKK. But, I suppose, I've still been co-opted a bit by the urban Thai antipathy towards the poor of the NE, not least because they keep electing governments that are hell-bent on destroying this country.

My beef isn't really with the women. They're just trying any which way to survive, even if it means having unrealistic expectations of a bunch of not very smart guys. More to the point, I have an axe to grind (too much, perhaps) about the type of Farang who comes here and marries these girls, because it does have an impact on me. The letter from the woman in my original post says it all - the stereotype of the Farang/bargirl relationship, which hurts those of us living and working here, who are definitely NOT in this kind of relationship and are trying to make people aware of the difference. I don't like my GF being looked down on simply because she's with an older Farang. She's so far from being a bargirl; in looks, dress and manner, that it makes me fume when people make negative judgements when they find out my GF is from Isaan and is considerably younger than me. Then, of course there's just the everday negative attitude one encounters from people in general when they see us together. Farang guys walking around with hookers and worse marrying hookers are the cause of this, pure and simple.

I realize that I can't change the Thais' deeply held prejudice. But, I do think that these type of Farang/bargirl relationships just exacerbate the problem considerably, which is why I go on too much about them. These relationships just [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord140][CodeWord140][/url] me off because of the negative impact they have. That's the truth of it. I admit that I have utter contempt for these guys who marry these girls.

It's probably not the best thing to be writing on a board like this. But, trust me, this opinion is not that uncommon among many expats not involved in any way with the P4P scene.

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand] ... More to the point, I have an axe to grind (too much, perhaps) about the type of Farang who comes here and marries these girls, because it does have an impact on me. The letter from the woman in my original post says it all - the stereotype of the Farang/bargirl relationship, which hurts those of us living and working here, who are definitely NOT in this kind of relationship and are trying to make people aware of the difference. I don't like my GF being looked down on simply because she's with an older Farang. She's so far from being a bargirl; in looks, dress and manner, that it makes me fume when people make negative judgements when they find out my GF is from Isaan and is considerably younger than me. Then, of course there's just the everday negative attitude one encounters from people in general when they see us together. Farang guys walking around with hookers and worse marrying hookers are the cause of this, pure and simple...[/QUOTE]

With all due respect, OTH, I think you are way too concerned with what people think. Why care? You have a beautiful 23 year old girlfriend. Enjoy it! You know she's a good girl. So why give a shit what aquaintences and strangers on the street think about your relationship. Tune them out. You are a very fortunate man.

By the same token, why be concerned with the love life of other farangs and their ladies? Let them enjoy their lives too. No resentment is necessary. Some will succeed. Some will fail. It is no concern of yours. Trying to live according to the expectations of others is a recipe for unhappiness.

Regards,
Daddy

I do not disagree with the opinion that farang mixing with, having relationships with(paid or, in rare instances, unpaid)and getting married to bar/p4p girls has upset the "natural social order" in areas of Thailand that this fraternization is noticeable. Based on what has been posted about Thai society, however, this should not come as a surprise when a Western culture "invades" an Asiatic culture for social reasons.

I refer you to the link posted by NicFrenchy on the 20th of April:

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cV0y53yhQFo&feature=related[/url]

Justin, IMO, gave clear insight as to why single causasian males come to Thailand in droves stating, in no uncertain terms, "to be loved and find happiness". Something, he goes on to say, that he was unable to find in his native country(I assume the UK).

In addition Justin, according to the video, is age 33 and I believe that if someone had asked him, when he was, say 18, would he ever consider living in SE Asia so that he could have girlfriends. IMO, he would have laughed out loud and told them they were daft!

Extreme desperation for female companionship that is reliable, accomodating, attractive, sexual and, most importantly, AVAILABLE can cause many single men to make life-altering decisions, as to move to or spend as much time as possible, in Thailand.

The question: Why would many ot the single Western males that come to Thailand move away from family, friends and a familiar culture? The answer is Justin's answer("to be loved and find happiness") and, how sad is that?

I ask, using poor Justin as a "Poster Boy", how could you or why would you EVER get involved in a bar/p4p girl. His description of his "girlfriend" was almost laughable in a pathetic sort of way as, from what he stated, she was only interested in the "highest bidder" and once the "worse"(as in "for better or worse") presented itself, she was GONE! Justin painted himself, unfortunately for him, as a classic "patsy".

IMO, the reason many Western single men, like Justin, go "looking for love in all the wrong places" in Thailand, can be attributed to ignorance and convenience.

Ignorance of where to and how to find a Thai girl that would be attracted to them and how do they "court" them if one is ever located. "Culture clash" and a "language barrier" is followed by a fear of the unknown and naturally leads to avoidance of this option.

Conversely, bar/p4p girls are attractive, available, friendly, numerous(can be found in bars, gogos, the street, etc.), great sex and, as a welcomed bonus, some even speak English(at varying levels of proficiency).

Convenient relationships with the type of women that many Western single men are so desperate for; what more can they ask for and why go anywhere else to find it!

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]Certainly, there's zero intellectual stimulii - afterall, her idea of critical thought is whether to have 'poo' with her 'pra ra' in her som tam tonight for dinner. These girls are as dumb as posts.[/QUOTE]

You can just imagine the scenario in the local beer bars back in the days:

Nid: "Hey, girls, that OTH guy's heading up the soi."

Lek: "Oh fuck! Not him again."

Nui: "Yeah, why do some guys think that buying you a ladydrink gives them free entry to your head?"

Tuy: "Don't know about the rest of you, but I'm going to play thick-as-fuck and just talk about food and make-up."

OTH: "Biah lek krup. Good evening ladies. Have you thought anymore about that fascinating discussion we....."

Silent groans fill the bar's ether.

[QUOTE=Daddy07]With all due respect, OTH, I think you are way too concerned with what people think. Why care? You have a beautiful 23 year old girlfriend. Enjoy it! You know she's a good girl. So why give a shit what aquaintences and strangers on the street think about your relationship. Tune them out. You are a very fortunate man.

By the same token, why be concerned with the love life of other farangs and their ladies? Let them enjoy their lives too. No resentment is necessary. Some will succeed. Some will fail. It is no concern of yours. Trying to live according to the expectations of others is a recipe for unhappiness.

Regards,
Daddy[/QUOTE]

Ya. I used to think that. Who gives a FUCK what anyone thinks.

Except, what's brought it home in recent years is that I was told at work that I shouldn't bring my GF to university functions because people would talk and it wouldn't look good. Of course, I suspected the reason for this, but asked anyway. I was told, in no uncertain terms that Thais with whom I work would immediately assume the worst and think she's a bargirl and it would reflect negatively on my position. Despite my protests, that all they would have to do is meet her to know she's a good girl from a good family, well-spoken and polite, I was told emphatically "No" and given a long harangue about Farang and their loso bargirlfriends. I realize this is complete prejudice and totally unjustified. But, it's the reality of what I personally face. So, I admit it's coloured my thinking, considerably.

However, I still find the whole idea of looking for one's mate in what amounts to a glorified brothel goes against the normal social dynamic and interaction that is the mating ritual. A scenario in which one's relationship begins by buying a mate out of a bar and paying for sex (and please don't say we all pay for it - it's not the same) begs the question, "Are these men incapable of forming normal relationships?"

But, you're absolutely right, of course that I shouldn't begrudge another man's relationship and shouldn't care. It isn't my business.

As some have suggested to me by PM, not to mention being told by family and friends, that perhaps I should quit my job and find a more positive, less poisonous working environment, I will say that working where I do gives me a facinating and often alarming incite into the appalling way in which the upper strata of Thai society thinks.

But, hey...time to get off my soap-box and make an effort to keep my personal angst to myself, I suppose.

Run Mann's probably right. Nobody's listening and more importantly, nobody's interested.

[QUOTE=Terry Terrier]You can just imagine the scenario in the local beer bars back in the days:

Nid: "Hey, girls, that OTH guy's heading up the soi."

Lek: "Oh fuck! Not him again."

Nui: "Yeah, why do some guys think that buying you a ladydrink gives them free entry to your head?"

Tuy: "Don't know about the rest of you, but I'm going to play thick-as-fuck and just talk about food and make-up."

OTH: "Biah lek krup. Good evening ladies. Have you thought anymore about that fascinating discussion we....."

Silent groans fill the bar's ether.[/QUOTE]

Ya, what is it about existentialism that bar girls don't like?;)

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]I was told at work that I shouldn't bring my GF to university functions because people would talk and it wouldn't look good. Of course, I suspected the reason for this, but asked anyway. I was told, in no uncertain terms that Thais with whom I work would immediately assume the worst and think she's a bargirl and it would reflect negatively on my position. Despite my protests, that all they would have to do is meet her to know she's a good girl from a good family, well-spoken and polite, I was told emphatically "No" and given a long harangue about Farang and their loso bargirlfriends. I realize this is complete prejudice and totally unjustified. But, it's the reality of what I personally face. So, I admit it's coloured my thinking, considerably.[/QUOTE]

I believe the same assumptions would come from Farangs. I used to date a very cute girl (sales manager in a respectable shop) and no matter how nice she dressed and how non-P4P she looked, she always got very interested "looks" from Farangs we would encounter. These people clearly thought she was a working girl. I think not only the Thais are prejudiced but so are a lot of Tourist Joe coming here thinking the whole country is just one big Massage Parlor LOL

[QUOTE=NicFrenchy] These people clearly thought she was a working girl. I think not only the Thais are prejudiced but so are a lot of Tourist Joe coming here thinking the whole country is just one big Massage Parlor LOL[/QUOTE]
You don't really know what people are "clearly" thinking.
But Farangs will ogle at pretty girls. Some will be jealous and be thinking "where can I get one like that?"
I don't believe that ALL Farangs assume every Thai girl with a Farang is P4P.
Depends how the girl acts, how the guy looks and acts, and the knowledge and experience of the Farang looking at them.
My GF likes to dress up with big ear-rings and a bit sexy. So unfortunately she probably looks P4P.

She doesn't speak English with me. Not sure what impression this gives.

[QUOTE=NicFrenchy]I am not sure I would enjoy the fleece as much as you would, especially when the SOD is not a businessman but a poor old chap that was already taken for a ride (Married & Divorced) in his own country.[/QUOTE]

Touche... if it's like you say then you are right... but if it's a businessman then I find it ammusing. Sorry maybe I have a sick sense of humour. I had my balls handed to me on a silver plater last night through a misunderstanding and I am looking in the mirror at what a fool I was. Turned out to my benefit but I love these moments of reflection.

Cheers...

[QUOTE=Tansak KTV]I had my balls handed to me on a silver plater last night through a misunderstanding and I am looking in the mirror at what a fool I was. Turned out to my benefit but I love these moments of reflection.

Cheers...[/QUOTE]

Any chance you'll share the Story? Could be quite amusing? :)

[QUOTE=NicFrenchy]Any chance you'll share the Story? Could be quite amusing? :)[/QUOTE]

Over a drink in BKK... if WE ever meet up... how many times have we missed each other???

Too many folks know my TGF... But there was a game of chicken last night and I blinked first and got my balls hand delivered to me.

But right now it's turning out peachy....

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]I really like this post, even if you take the [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord140][CodeWord140][/url] out of me a bit. It gives me pause.

My beef isn't really with the women. I have an axe to grind (too much, perhaps) about the type of Farang who comes here and marries these girls, because it does have an impact on me. That's the truth of it. I admit that I have utter contempt for these guys who marry these girls. It's probably not the best thing to be writing on a board like this. [/QUOTE]
Professor OTH, you are taking years off your life investing this much emotion into something you can do little about, at least not on this board. There's a universal perception that Asian women in relationships with western men are the product of some variation of a monetary sexual connection. That perception, while not always correct does have a high percentage of truth to it and the perception will probably never change.

Your Anger should be directed at the Thai hierarchy, not the Falangs. Some Falangs have a need and see these girls as a way of full-filling that need. Sometimes I too wish they didn’t pick girls from the bottom of the barrel, but it’s none of my business. Terry Terrier was right when he said that Thailand could eliminate or at least significantly reduce the prostitution problem if they wanted to. South Korea is a perfect example of a country that did just that although prostitution is still available, it’s not offered in the same overly offensive manner many people object to. However, the Thais simply do not want to address this issue for a number of reasons, money and corruption being at the forefront of the equation. I could write pages about why many of these men marry Thai girls but no one cares and it would not solve or change anything, the fact is as long as the Thai Hierarchy allows and even covertly promotes prostitution, men will continue to come here and do what they do.

Hey, get a hold of the serenity prayer, I use it often and if there was ever a person it applies to, you are it. Chok Dee Professor!

What type of people you called as farangs?

Europeans and Americans usually.

There is also "farang dum" meaning "black farang" and is generally American, some Brit

It's a THAI generalization, though (farang dum)

[QUOTE=Dinghy]Europeans and Americans usually.

There is also "farang dum" meaning "black farang" and is generally American, some Brit

It's a THAI generalization, though (farang dum)[/QUOTE]

This quite rightly belongs either in the racism thread or the general thread...

But, anyway, one seldom hears Thais use the term 'Farang dum', IMO. You're likely to hear 'khon dum' far more often. And, actually I've heard 'Chocolate Man' or "Chocolate Girl' far more than any. Maybe it's generational because I've mainly heard younger people using this term.

[QUOTE=Chinese Jezebel]What type of people you called as farangs?[/QUOTE]
Yes sorry we are in the wrong thread.

Farang is supposed to mean foreigner but tends to be used with a narrower definition.
East Asians are known as "khon asia" (Asian people)
Indians, Arabs and (some other Middle Eastern) are known as "khon khaek". This word khaek can also mean guest.
Dark skinned are known as "khon piw dumb"
khon=people;phiw=skin;dumb=black

The remaining westerners (mostly with lighter) skin get called Farang (but can include dark skinned).

Thai people with very dark skin can be called:
"dumb dumb" but doesn't mean they are dense.
"phiw clum" refers to Thais with medium dark skin.
My GF is not so white and not so dark, so would be "phiw clum".

Use of these terms is not necessarily Racist, as when talking about various people, anything about the appearance can be latched onto to distinguish one person from another.

A child answering the phone might call out to the parents:
"Farang tow maa" (a Farang is calling - indicating not a Thai natural speaker).

Or the restaurant manager might say to one waitress:
"you take the Farang his bill and Lek can serve the khon khaek".
The manager could have refered to colour of the shirt equally well, unless they were wearing similar colours.

I have a close friend who is dark skinned and she refers to herself as black. Its not such a big deal.

Eye opening and poignant articles about Thai women, Falangs and the culture which relates to some of the recent discussion here.

[url]http://www.thefarang.com/2008/03/29/thai-farang-prostitution-bad-thai-thai-prostitution-good/[/url]

[QUOTE=Run Mann]Eye opening and poignant articles about Thai women, Falangs and the culture which relates to some of the recent discussion here.

[url]http://www.thefarang.com/2008/03/29/thai-farang-prostitution-bad-thai-thai-prostitution-good/[/url][/QUOTE]

Interesting article. It's of course very Thai to blame the Farang for everything and to ignore the root causes of the problem. I agreed with a comment you made earlier along the lines that if there was the will, the Thais could reduce prostitution drastically much the same as the Koreans have. While not a popular sentiment on a board like this, I'd personally love to see that happen.

However, the aspect of this article that I find disturbing is the spectre of some official attempt to limit or prevent Thai-Farang relationships. There are so many other areas in which the Thais have already made it more difficult for Farang to stay here, that it wouldn't surprise me if something similar to what has happened in Cambodia, where mixed marriages are now not allowed, happens here.

I have been talking to some Thai gals from Thai love links. IM has been fun and am agreeing to meet some. Some questions for those that know Thai culture. Many pictures have girls giving peace sign. Also, I have received winks. In Thai do these have any special meaning I should be aware of.

Any other signs or gestures to be looked for, or are there gestures that we should avoid or attempt for that matter. May sound odd to ask but these type of things can be important in some cultures

[QUOTE=Appcid]I have been talking to some Thai gals from Thai love links. IM has been fun and am agreeing to meet some. Some questions for those that know Thai culture. Many pictures have girls giving peace sign. Also, I have received winks. In Thai do these have any special meaning I should be aware of.

Any other signs or gestures to be looked for, or are there gestures that we should avoid or attempt for that matter. May sound odd to ask but these type of things can be important in some cultures[/QUOTE]

The peace sign means "friendship". As far as I know, if the wink is just a standard wink, it means the same as in Western cultures, except it's actually a little rude to wink at a girl unless you actually know her quite well.
If both eyes are closed, or sort of half open, and the chin is raised, this means, "I know" or "I agree", or simply, "Yes".

The thumb and index finger extended, last three fingers folded, palm facing in, hand placed below the chin so that the thumb and index finger frame the chin means, "I'm ab-baew", meaning, "I'm really cute". It's a popular teenage slang thing that has made it's way into the mainstream.



If I think of any others, I'll add them.

The Thais have lots of gestures. But, they're difficult to explain.

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]if there was the will, the Thais could reduce prostitution drastically much the same as the Koreans have[/QUOTE]

They could do what the Japanese have done, and have a sex industry which is at least as big in terms of revenue, and to the trained eye far more ubiquitous (BJ shops easily found at every major train station, and no shortage of shops around the small ones) as Thailand's, but to which foreigners are not welcome.

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]However, the aspect of this article that I find disturbing is the spectre of some official attempt to limit or prevent Thai-Farang relationships.[/QUOTE]

Yes, reading the article I was imagining some Chinese politician deciding that Lao and Khmer girls in Isaan losing their Thai culture might be a problem. I was also imagining being back in Thailand where a thought like that might even make a little sense.

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]The main reasons cited for such an alarmingly high failure rate weres culture clashes and most importantly, that the girls in question all thought their "knight in shining armour" was considerably richer than he turned out to be.[/QUOTE]

OTH, I saw a cartoon once that shows a man talking to a bargirl and he says something to the effect: "Okay, a million baht for your Mom, a new pickup truck for your Dad and 50,000 baht a month for you. What do I get?" She answers, "Fuck all..."

I always thought the reply should be, "On my night off, if none of my boyfriends are in town, you can sleep with me, if I'm not too tired."

Someone once told me, even if a bargirl hates the fucking, she loves the life. So, in the lyrics of an old song, "How ya gonna keep her down on the farm...?"

[QUOTE=Animby]OTH, I saw a cartoon once that shows a man talking to a bargirl and he says something to the effect: "Okay, a million baht for your Mom, a new pickup truck for your Dad and 50,000 baht a month for you. What do I get?" She answers, "Fuck all..."

I always thought the reply should be, "On my night off, if none of my boyfriends are in town, you can sleep with me, if I'm not too tired."

Someone once told me, even if a bargirl hates the fucking, she loves the life. So, in the lyrics of an old song, "How ya gonna keep her down on the farm...?"[/QUOTE]

When I was first here, I worked with a REAL Old Thai Hand, who knew this country inside out and, in particular had a lot of experience in his early years here with bargirls. He told me something, which I have since heard dozens of times from different people: that P4P girls become addicted to the life and it changes them fundamentally and permanently. One could argue that being in the biz alters them psychologically. In my experience, they certainly don't think or act like normal Thai women act and are really quite screwed up. This is why I personally think that any guy who goes beyond the 3Fs with any of these girls is an idiot.

As far as I'm concerned, there's no excuse for an expat settling for a bargirl, when he could do much better, IMO. I know I'm going to get flamed (again) by the usual crowd for this opinion. But, it is my opinion, for what it's worth and I'm just entitled to think this way as others are in thinking that P4P girls are the salt of the earth. If you're living here, there are many opportunities to meet nice girls who, believe it or not don't have the single-minded agenda of fleecing you for everything you've got, and with whom you can form mutually-rewarding and meaningful relationships. The problem is, that a lot of guys simply don't know how to go about meeting a decent Thai woman, so take the easy way out.

In my first year or so here, I went this familiar route. My first GF came from soi Cowboy - very predictable, indeed. But, I managed to avoid falling for her or any other of these type of girls and more importantly avoided getting taken for a ride. I successfully moved quickly beyond P4P as a source for anything but frivolous fun because I recognized immediately that there was so much more out there. All it takes really is a little effort.

I really is not my favourite thing to do quoting myself, but please refer to my post in this collumn dated the 24th of April where I stated the same thing as OTH stated in his post today.

I guess great minds run on the same channel, eh!(just joking!)

Even though I do not live in Thailand, I at least credit myself with having some knowledge of how men think as I am able to identify with a great amount of mens' motives and motivations and the actions generated from same.

Cheers!

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]...If you're living here, there are many opportunities to meet nice girls who, believe it or not don't have the single-minded agenda of fleecing you for everything you've got, and with whom you can form mutually-rewarding and meaningful relationships...[/QUOTE]

Yeah, but then you must become a lier and a cheat, or else give up all the other pretty little girls. :(

[QUOTE=Daddy07]Yeah, but then you must become a lier and a cheat, or else give up all the other pretty little girls. :([/QUOTE]

Daddy

You're still a newby here. So, it's all still exciting. But, you will reach a point (hopefully quickly) when you get sick of these particular kind of girls. It's happened to pretty well everyone I know. I don't care what P4P appologists say, these girls are uninteresting and generally pretty stupid, not to mention completely fucked in the head, and become a huge pain to be around, even for the allotted time it takes for short-time. When you learn enough of the lingo (meaning Isaan, not Thai) to understand what they gossip about with each other, it's pretty clear how limited they are in their thought processes and how screwed up they are. I never used to let on that I could understand them, always pretending to be fresh off the plane. Even when they knew me, it never occurred to them that a Farang could understand their Isaan "code". Listening to their mind-numbing, endless twaddle was what initially turned me off the whole bar scene.


Anyway... I was mainly talking about quality, in my post, not especially committment to a single girl. You can still have more than one girl, if that's your thing. It's very Thai to have a main relationship and maybe a Gig on the side. I've been that route too. Now, I've become more or less monogamous and am happy to be so because I have someone of real quality and don't want to risk blowing it.

But, to each his own. Just don't settle for used, damaged goods when you can find something a hell of a lot better. That's my point.

[QUOTE=Appcid]I have been talking to some Thai gals from Thai love links. IM has been fun and am agreeing to meet some. [/QUOTE]

Someone (in Australia??) is making a killing off these dating (TLL, AE,CLL) sites because they all seem to be under one umbrella but I am not convinced about the wholesome integrity of any of these sites. I got a kick out of them years ago and most recently when I played around on Asian Euro which seems to be the most diverse of the group of sites but with tons of Filipinos. I actually conducted my own social experiment on the Thai, Chinese and AE sites and may share those results here one day; the results actually confirmed some of the things some members here have written about in the past. Oh, on AE I saw a pic of an older woman who had previously worked in Nana but to her credit, she did not try to camouflage her profile, she was upfront about who she was and said she is only looking for friends to chat. Somehow I don't think she is getting too many IMs as a standard member because she has a face that is honestly, aesthetically challenging.

Not all the girls on those sites are normal girls (whatever that means and whoever they are), some are straight out of the night life and you can pretty much gauge by the dialogue who is who. The display pictures are not always of the girls and maybe the same can be said for the men but I can't speak to that because for obvious reasons I never chatted with any of them. There's a platoon of IMs from people living in Africa who never have any display pictures and their dialogue are all the same. They will invite you to yahoo messenger and send you pics of beautiful models then sucker you into their trap. They are so amateurish though I can’t imagine anyone falling for what they are selling but who knows.

Most of the girls are in internet cafes and are relatively young and attractive but in my experience many of them had their own agendas. Many were from Khon Khen, Chaing Mai and Udon but there were also many from good ole BKK. There are some old hags on there too, some I saw were in their 50s I chatted with a few of them just to say hello but who can blame them for trying. Again though not sure what they accomplished from being on those sites. Some of the girls were brutally honest and would want to meet right away and some wanted to play the dating game. To me, it was fun stuff to do when I was bored and although the sites are boasting about how successful they are in making successful connection for many couples, I remain skeptical. I think these sites are an alternative option to the regular route mongers take like go-go, FLs, massages shops etc, because you can generate many phone numbers, contacts and pictures and even a good sexhibition show now and again. I have a friend in the PI who met his wife on the Filipina Hearts site so I know it can work but it took some effort before he met her. The sites are also good for fun and chatting and perhaps if you stick with them you can meet that special someone but I suspect people in that last group are in the minority. The one thing I have is a slew of phone numbers, pictures and email addresses should I ever need them on a rainy day. Unfortunately (for them?) or fortunately (for me?) I don't think I will ever need them any time soon.

Run Mann

I agree with you about these sites. But, I think that a few years ago there was some legitimacy about them in that the women were mostly what they said they were and certainly few, if any were pros. I met about 65 in person from both AsianEuro and ThaiLovelinks. Of those, only two turned out to be bargirls and I met both of them within the last year or so. Before that, all of the ones I met seemed to be regular TGs - students, office workers, shopgirls, tour guides, teachers; even two who were lawyers and another who was a parliamentary assistant.

AsianEuro was taken over some time ago by money-grubbing Filipinas and ThaiLovelinks increasingly seems to be made up of thinly disguised girls from P4P.

I had many good and several quite frightening experiences which I relayed some time ago in a post about this.

I had pretty well decided that these sites were definitely not the place to find a serious relationship, when 2 years ago I met my current GF on TLL. She had only been a member for a couple of days (as a lark with a couple of her friends from school), I snagged her fast, and she's turned out to be a true gem. But, I agree with you that this kind of success is very rare.

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]
...If you're living here, there are many opportunities to meet nice girls who, believe it or not don't have the single-minded agenda of fleecing you for everything you've got, and with whom you can form mutually-rewarding and meaningful relationships. The problem is, that a lot of guys simply don't know how to go about meeting a decent Thai woman, so take the easy way out.

[/QUOTE]

OTH is absolutely spot-on with this post. It's not easy to break into Thai culture and meet really decent non-P4P Thai woman; but, it's much more satisfying once you do. I was able to do it after a couple of years and I have never regreted the decision. Bar girls get very boring quickly.

RA

I've always found it very easy to get middle-class educated Thai girlfriends, but it is tiresome and uninteresting, and certainly no where near as sexually satisfying as the P4P options OTH is so eager to see taken from us.

[QUOTE=Opebo]I've always found it very easy to get middle-class educated Thai girlfriends, but it is tiresome and uninteresting, and certainly no where near as sexually satisfying as the P4P options OTH is so eager to see taken from us.[/QUOTE]

Maybe it's you who's boring, not the girls, and maybe you aren't particularly adept at dealing with normal girls and normal relationships, given your proclivity for risky and aberrant behaviour in P4P. You come across as an intelligent, but incredibly corrupt and morally bankrupt individual.

Personally, I've never had a P4P girl even come close in ability to many of the regular TGs I've had. Not to mention that, contrary to what you say, most educated, middle-class Thai women are far more interesting to be with and to interract with than the boring, 2-dimensional, screwed-up girls in P4P. They're also generally much better looking than P4P girls, IMO and know how to behave properly when out in social situations. There's simply no comparison.

Your phrase about "P4P options"...being "taken from us" reveals so much about you. Who the hell do you think you are and why do you think you have some right to P4P here?

My desire to see the end of or at least reduction in prostitution in Thailand, as has happened in Korea is a recognition of the need to see Thailand develop properly as a nation, particularly in social equality, which would give these girls the education, they so desperately need and as a result give them other more culturally acceptable options to make a decent living and have decent lives. There is much that needs to be done in this regard: better schools and more industry and technology creating jobs in Isaan, with much better salaries.

Someone such as you, who by your own admission in several previous posts wants to keep these girls poor and ignorant so that you can have a continuous source of cheap pussy is nothing short of a social pariah and worse.

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]Daddy ... You're still a newby here. So, it's all still exciting. But, you will reach a point (hopefully quickly) when you get sick of these particular kind of girls. It's happened to pretty well everyone I know... [/QUOTE]

Ok, I understand that young, beautiful, pure, sweet, unused, undamaged girls of premium quality can be found offering meaningful relationships far more intellectually and sexually fulfilling than those possible with the P4P hotties. It’s true! Having lived in Thailand only 6 months now, I’ve already had a few such golden opportunities for domestic bliss.

Suppose, like you, I decide to acquire one. Then what? I’m 62. She’s barely in her 20’s. Her mom and pop are younger than me – maybe 10 or even 20 years younger. Her adult life is just starting. I’m retired. She wants to start a family soon; have babies. Should I father her little babies? My daughter is old enough to be her mother. She thrives in her interactions with friends and family. I like to live alone. She likes to party, dance, and socialize. Again, I like to be alone. I want to relax and stay home. She wants one man for love, family and financial support. I want to fuck and fondle every pretty young girl I see. The relationship is like a lovely flower, and just like a pretty young flower, all too soon the bloom is off the rose. It’s just not fair for either side.

My fantasy has always been to someday enjoy a sex life much like the biblical King Solomon, an Arab Sultan, or an Egyptian Pharaoh. These guys had harems full of nubile young puppies, all trained to provide sexual services fit for a king. They chose their bedtime companions the same as they plucked the very best fruit from the trees. They had favorites as well as new lovelies available 24/7 -- an endless erotic variety at their beck and call.

I am living that fantasy now in Pattaya Thailand. And I have it much better than all the historical kings and other potentates because I can have as much feminine services and company as I desire without the necessity to support them and their families beyond the $15-$50 they demand for each session. Who cares about their intelligence or life interests? Love abounds, but not domestic love. (Something has to be sacrificed for this fantasy to succeed) It’s a win-win situation. It’s fair.

So, if you want family and babies and intellectual stimulation along with occasional sexual gratification, by all means seek and find a good little girlfriend. You will be dead by the time the kids reach puberty, but so what? If you want to lead a happy, carefree, irresponsible life of lust and debauchery in your golden years, stick with P4P. This wonderful forum tells you where to find ‘em.

Regards,
Daddy

[QUOTE=Opebo]I've always found it very easy to get middle-class educated Thai girlfriends, but it is tiresome and uninteresting, and certainly no where near as sexually satisfying as the P4P options OTH is so eager to see taken from us.[/QUOTE]My former "middle-class educated Thai Girlfriend" was interesting, smart, well read, and made her way through two degrees in college on loans, money from her parents (her father was a retired Army officer) and hard work, and never worked in a beer bar, or topless/gogo bar. Was she sexually satisfying to me? Oh my God, yes. She was a sexual dynamo, an orgasm machine, who was just as horny as I was, and would take care of me even when she wasn't up for it, and I was. I never messed around on her, even though one of her hottie friends was looking for some wood, and approached ME.

P4P is good for some, as is having a good girlfriend is for others. I've tried both, and can't recommend either. But I will say this - if you find a girl you are really sexually compatible with, and she's not a pain in the ass, stick with her, unless of course you just want variety every night. None of are sexually compatible with every girl we meet, even in Thailand. Sure, we'd like to think we were, but it's just not that way.

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]...My desire to see the end of or at least reduction in prostitution in Thailand, as has happened in Korea is a recognition of the need to see Thailand develop properly as a nation, particularly in social equality, which would give these girls the education, they so desperately need and as a result give them other more culturally acceptable options to make a decent living and have decent lives. There is much that needs to be done in this regard: better schools and more industry and technology creating jobs in Isaan, with much better salaries...[/QUOTE]I agree with this statement because I have grown to love and care about many of my Thai friends and their children, and I am well aware that the [i]de facto[/i] caste system limits what they can realistically achieve in their lives.

My question for for OTH is: how can educational and employment opportunities can be increased for those that most need them (i.e., poor folks from Isaan), without seriously upsetting the [i]status quo[/i]?

From what I've recently read it sounds like it is going the other direction and there is push to keep more folks "back on the farm" and in sweatshop factories. Of course, with this trend, [i]the daughters of Isaan[/i] will continue to sell their lithe, young bodies to meet both Thai and non-Thai demand.

[QUOTE=Daddy07]Ok, I understand that young, beautiful, pure, sweet, unused, undamaged girls of premium quality can be found offering meaningful relationships far more intellectually and sexually fulfilling than those possible with the P4P hotties. It’s true! Having lived in Thailand only 6 months now, I’ve already had a few such golden opportunities for domestic bliss.

Suppose, like you, I decide to acquire one. Then what? I’m 62. She’s barely in her 20’s. Her mom and pop are younger than me – maybe 10 or even 20 years younger. Her adult life is just starting. I’m retired. She wants to start a family soon; have babies. Should I father her little babies? My daughter is old enough to be her mother. She thrives in her interactions with friends and family. I like to live alone. She likes to party, dance, and socialize. Again, I like to be alone. I want to relax and stay home. She wants one man for love, family and financial support. I want to fuck and fondle every pretty young girl I see. The relationship is like a lovely flower, and just like a pretty young flower, all too soon the bloom is off the rose. It’s just not fair for either side.

My fantasy has always been to someday enjoy a sex life much like the biblical King Solomon, an Arab Sultan, or an Egyptian Pharaoh. These guys had harems full of nubile young puppies, all trained to provide sexual services fit for a king. They chose their bedtime companions the same as they plucked the very best fruit from the trees. They had favorites as well as new lovelies available 24/7 -- an endless erotic variety at their beck and call.

I am living that fantasy now in Pattaya Thailand. And I have it much better than all the historical kings and other potentates because I can have as much feminine services and company as I desire without the necessity to support them and their families beyond the $15-$50 they demand for each session. Who cares about their intelligence or life interests? Love abounds, but not domestic love. (Something has to be sacrificed for this fantasy to succeed) It’s a win-win situation. It’s fair.

So, if you want family and babies and intellectual stimulation along with occasional sexual gratification, by all means seek and find a good little girlfriend. You will be dead by the time the kids reach puberty, but so what? If you want to lead a happy, carefree, irresponsible life of lust and debauchery in your golden years, stick with P4P. This wonderful forum tells you where to find ‘em.

Regards,
Daddy[/QUOTE]

An excellent point of view. If there is a next time i will probably go the same route.

[QUOTE=Arizonan]My former "middle-class educated Thai Girlfriend" was interesting, smart, well read, and made her way through two degrees in college on loans, money from her parents (her father was a retired Army officer) and hard work, and never worked in a beer bar, or topless/gogo bar. Was she sexually satisfying to me? Oh my God, yes. She was a sexual dynamo, an orgasm machine, who was just as horny as I was, and would take care of me even when she wasn't up for it, and I was. I never messed around on her, even though one of her hottie friends was looking for some wood, and approached ME.
[/QUOTE]

Sounds like a dream girl, why did you let a catch like her get away?

[QUOTE=Daddy07]Ok, I understand that young, beautiful, pure, sweet, unused, undamaged girls of premium quality can be found offering meaningful relationships far more intellectually and sexually fulfilling than those possible with the P4P hotties. It’s true! Having lived in Thailand only 6 months now, I’ve already had a few such golden opportunities for domestic bliss.

Suppose, like you, I decide to acquire one. Then what? I’m 62. She’s barely in her 20’s. Her mom and pop are younger than me – maybe 10 or even 20 years younger. Her adult life is just starting. I’m retired. She wants to start a family soon; have babies. Should I father her little babies? My daughter is old enough to be her mother. She thrives in her interactions with friends and family. I like to live alone. She likes to party, dance, and socialize. Again, I like to be alone. I want to relax and stay home. She wants one man for love, family and financial support. I want to fuck and fondle every pretty young girl I see. The relationship is like a lovely flower, and just like a pretty young flower, all too soon the bloom is off the rose. It’s just not fair for either side.

My fantasy has always been to someday enjoy a sex life much like the biblical King Solomon, an Arab Sultan, or an Egyptian Pharaoh. These guys had harems full of nubile young puppies, all trained to provide sexual services fit for a king. They chose their bedtime companions the same as they plucked the very best fruit from the trees. They had favorites as well as new lovelies available 24/7 -- an endless erotic variety at their beck and call.

I am living that fantasy now in Pattaya Thailand. And I have it much better than all the historical kings and other potentates because I can have as much feminine services and company as I desire without the necessity to support them and their families beyond the $15-$50 they demand for each session. Who cares about their intelligence or life interests? Love abounds, but not domestic love. (Something has to be sacrificed for this fantasy to succeed) It’s a win-win situation. It’s fair.

So, if you want family and babies and intellectual stimulation along with occasional sexual gratification, by all means seek and find a good little girlfriend. You will be dead by the time the kids reach puberty, but so what? If you want to lead a happy, carefree, irresponsible life of lust and debauchery in your golden years, stick with P4P. This wonderful forum tells you where to find ‘em.

Regards,
Daddy[/QUOTE]


I wasn’t talking about getting married and having babies! I’m certainly not going to do that…at least the baby part. If you read my post, I wasn't suggesting you even get a GF. Just, move beyond P4P. It's the bottom of the barrel mate. Learn to differentiate. There's so much better out there.

I do understand how you’re feeling. But, I also think you haven’t been here long enough to know one way or the other. The novelty hasn’t worn off yet. It’s all still very exciting to have a ready and seemingly endless supply of apparently cute, sweet young things at your disposal. Let me guess. You have a number of them who call you and want to come over at anytime of the day or night. You don't even need to go out looking anymore, if you don't want. You have a little stable of girls who all apparently adore you and give you a GFE, if you want it. It all sounds so perfect.

mmmmmmmmmm....Been there…Done that…

It took me about a year before I started questioning the whole P4P scene and another year and a bit before I seriously started to extricate myself from it. Almost from the beginning, I had access to non-P4P girls, especially students. But, I still opted for P4P a lot of the time because it was just simpler and less messy. But, around the time I hit the 500th or so girl, I asked myself, “OK now what? What’s the point?” As the Thais say, “same, same.” A lot of my friends were always telling me, “get yourself a bird!”. So, I did and was with her for 4 years. She was a really great girl. But, I blew it by dumping her for a not so great girl (one of my ex-students). Of course, during the time I was together with my GF of 4 years, I wasn’t 100% loyal. But, they were all quick dalliances and she was who I always went home to. The other thing that turned me off P4P was that my taste had evolved over the course of the first couple of years I was here and I simply didn’t find the P4P girls very good looking. Now, I find most of them downright ugly. So, when I ended up being on my own again, I certainly didn’t return to P4P, but looked elsewhere. I had tasted better quality Thai flesh and wasn’t about to settle for the cheap meat that is P4P.

Everyone is of course different. But, it’s been my experience that almost every expat moves beyond P4P. However, being in LaLaLand, that likely won’t happen to you. Pattaya isn’t a normal place - it’s certainly not Thailand. So, what normally happens to expats in Thailand, likely wouldn’t happen to expats there. For one thing, you can get away with being in limbo in Pattaya; a perpetual sex tourist in a sex tourist hole. You can’t really do that elsewhere, without being called on it. Your mates would think there was something wrong with you, not being able to do any better than to pull nothing but hookers. But, in tawdry Patts, that’s the norm and one simply blends in by having an endless trail of Hos lined up outside the door. Therefore it’s a perfect place to retire for an aging sultan wanting his fantasy harem.


But, I still think one day, you might just get really bored with it all.

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]Run Mann

I agree with you about these sites. I met about 65 in person from both AsianEuro and ThaiLovelinks. Of those, only two turned out to be bargirls and I met both of them within the last year or so.[/QUOTE]

I'm curious OTH how you determined that those other 63 girls had no connection to the night life; presumably you not did have extended liaisons with all of them. It always puzzled me how there are so many posters here who make proud and bold declarative statement like "my Thai GF/wife has never set foot anywhere near the night life or was never involved in it." How do they know that to be a fact, because she said so? These same Posters will then make statement like “Thais (girls) are the biggest liars, they all tell lies to save face”. Well, if that is true, seems to me those are incredulous statements. This isn’t a criticism of you or your situation specifically (although you are involved) but just my general overall observation about many posters making what I consider to be insincere statements. I am intrigued as to how they factually support these statements.

I submit that no one knows the truth but the girls. Echoing those statements may give men a sense of increased self-esteem on this board but in a country where lying seems to be ingrained in the culture and prostitution is widely available, many of those type statements/posters lack creditability in this area. Now you can say that you can tell the difference because you have experience or wisdom or not all the girls are liars and normal girls are not the same as P4P, but come on, deep down who really believes this stuff?

In a country where it’s not uncommon for a girl to be multi-task as a Banker and a nocturnal paid Companion how does anyone know her true activities? There are Uni girls working part time at Natarees and as Escorts for various agencies, so how are they classified, Hookers, normal, half normal? If you met them today or later in life, would they open up and tell you about their extra activities? A better statement would be “as far as I know, my gf has never been near the night-life”. This is a land of plenty (of hookers) and we meet on a sex board where no one met his wife or GF via the P4P route. The odds of that happening are in the trillions, it can’t happen. A freshman college student taking statistics can tell us that. I would venture to say that at least some of the girls we think are normal girls are much closer or in some way connected to the night scene than their mates may know. However many of these posters making these statements have to already know the truth. The line between P4P and normal girls is not as defined as some may think. Not bashing anyone, just my not so humbly view point.

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]I wasn’t talking about getting married and having babies! I’m certainly not going to do that…at least the baby part...[/QUOTE]

Hummmm... I assume you have told her that and she's happy with it. Can't imagine though that a beautiful young woman from a fine family would not want to start her own family, which, of course, means having babies. Or, are you counting on the relationship to end amicably when the talk inevitably turns to family and babies? You can always find a new one, right? Except, IMHO, that kind of arrangement is not fair to either of you. Someone will probably be hurt.

[QUOTE=Daddy07]Hummmm... I assume you have told her that and she's happy with it. Can't imagine though that a beautiful young woman from a fine family would not want to start her own family, which, of course, means having babies. Or, are you counting on the relationship to end amicably when the talk inevitably turns to family and babies? You can always find a new one, right? Except, IMHO, that kind of arrangement is not fair to either of you. Someone will probably be hurt.[/QUOTE]

You're a bit of an old softie, aren't you? Nice.

FYI. I can't have kids and she doesn't want them. She's told me that from day 1. That could change, of course as she gets older. But, she knows my situation and doesn't have any problem with it. We have a really great relationship. It surprises me, given the difference in age. But, she's truly the best girl I've ever known, not to mention quite cute and a real head-turner.



[QUOTE=Run Mann]I submit that no one knows the truth but the girls.[/QUOTE]


Run Mann

Well, I don't know whether any of the other women from TLL had ever been involved in P4P. You're right. It's hard to know these things for sure. But, most of them did have reasonably good jobs and most just weren't like any P4P girls I ever met. Despite your assertions, I have been here a long time, I know Thais extremely well and I am quite confident in my ability to assess TGs.

I do think your post grossly over-exagerates. Sure there are freelancers who are secretaries, shopgirls and even students. But, I honestly don't think the numbers are as large as people want to believe. Large numbers of uni girls turning tricks is an urban myth. A lot of the so-called students working at MPs are spurious at best and if students at all, are probably part-time and always come from the same few bottom-tier unis known for this (If you want the names of the these unis, I can easily supply them). In fact, I've met a number of fake students, even decked out in uniforms (easy enough to come by), who when I questioned them couldn't even give simple credible info. It's no secret that there's big money to be made, if you sell yourself as a student trying to make a little on the side. But, in many cases, these girls aren't legit. This country is not awash in prostitutes as your post would suggest. It may seem that way, if all you do is travel along well-worn paths. The other fact is that probably 90% of the estimated 2 million prostitutes in this country, even those in the Thai-oriented industry are from Isaan and are poor. Most aren't likely to have ever remotely been uni students, shopgirls, secretaries or anything else.

Yes Thais in general lie. But, if you live here long enough and are around them all the time, you do get to know how to read them. Quite honestly, a lot of posters on here, even those living here don't really have in-depth interaction with Thais, because they are ghetto-ized, and so you might have a point about some not really knowing for sure about their GF's past because they just can't read the culture. Add to that, that many end up with poor village girls and chances increase that, even if they didn't meet in a bar, that she may have had a brush with P4P at some time in her life. But, prostitution is born out of a need for money. Girls don't do it for fun. So, it's reasonable to assume that if a girl has money, already, either from her job or her family, she's not likely to have ever been anywhere near P4P. Also, I'm sorry. But, I do believe you can read the character of the girl and if you know her background and her family, you can be confident that she is what she says she is, especially if you have been here a long time and have in-depth knowledge of the people and the culture.

You live in Korea, not here. So, your POV is based on assumptions, not first-hand experience, or hard facts. It's an interesting post, but in many ways, it's a flawed one.

[QUOTE=Run Mann]Sounds like a dream girl, why did you let a catch like her get away?[/QUOTE]It's a long story, probably best told and not written out. Bottom line, she just wouldn't leave Thailand, because of her family. The visa thing wore us both out. I could go on, but that's the gist of it.

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]
Run Mann

Well, I don't know whether any of the other women from TLL had ever been involved in P4P. You're right.
[/QUOTE]


I asked questions and used some of the same repeated conversation/logic from this board. Also you don't know where I live; we don't all care to share our personal lives on this board. Your contention that if you don't live here then “your comments are based on assumptions" is flawed, funny you use this logic repeatedly on posters who don't share your views. Using that logic only people who live in Thailand can be provide data or speak about Thailand, its just not true. There are many samples one can use to support a position other that just living in the locale. However, many points in your post is refreshingly honestly and your answer does confirm what I was asking though, no one ever knows.

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]When you learn enough of the lingo (meaning Isaan, not Thai) to understand what they gossip about with each other, it's pretty clear how limited they are in their thought processes and how screwed up they are. I never used to let on that I could understand them, always pretending to be fresh off the plane. Even when they knew me, it never occurred to them that a Farang could understand their Isaan "code". Listening to their mind-numbing, endless twaddle was what initially turned me off the whole bar scene.[/QUOTE]

Didn't you inform us last year that you'd recently made the effort to learn Isaan Lao?

[QUOTE=Run Mann]I asked questions and used some of the same repeated conversation/logic from this board. Also you don't know where I live; we don't all care to share our personal lives on this board. Your contention that if you don't live here then “your comments are based on assumptions" is flawed, funny you use this logic repeatedly on posters who don't share your views. Using that logic only people who live in Thailand can be provide data or speak about Thailand, its just not true. There are many samples one can use to support a position other that just living in the locale. However, many points in your post is refreshingly honestly and your answer does confirm what I was asking though, no one ever knows.[/QUOTE]

Sorry, I thought you mentioned once in a post that you lived in Korea. My appologies. Well, anyway, we both make good points and it would be pretty boring on here if we totally agreed about everything.
I read your post yesterday, while sitting in a classroom with 35 20y.o. Thai girls and was looking at them thinking, "mmmmmmmmmmm...I wonder how many are hookers on the side?" :D Made me think, at least. HAHAHAHAHA

It continues to be an interesting discussion.

cheers

[QUOTE=Terry Terrier]Didn't you inform us last year that you'd recently made the effort to learn Isaan Lao?[/QUOTE]

I have understood a lot of Isaan for a long time. But, over the last 2 years, I've made more of an effort to learn to speak it. My comprehension is still far better than my speaking. But, it's an easier language to learn than Thai.

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]Sorry, I thought you mentioned once in a post that you lived in Korea. My appologies. Well, anyway, we both make good points and it would be pretty boring on here if we totally agreed about everything.
I read your post yesterday, while sitting in a classroom with 35 20y.o. Thai girls and was looking at them thinking, "mmmmmmmmmmm...I wonder how many are hookers on the side?" :D Made me think, at least. HAHAHAHAHA

It continues to be an interesting discussion.

cheers[/QUOTE]


I agree and you're right, I did mentioned that some time ago when I had a steady job but as a life long drifter, my home is now exclusively on the road. You did mention in that last post that you met a number of fake students decked out in uniforms. I get that selling yourself as a Uni girl is highly attractive option but how are the girls doing it while in uniform? Are you saying they are purposely dressing as a Uni girl in public in hopes of a score?

Also, a Uni girl working on the side to help with her expenses in all likelihood would not consider herself to be a hooker for various reasons, at least not in the denotative sense of the word. I personally know one girl in this category and I am grateful that she does not. Oh! Cheers to you too.

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]Maybe it's you who's boring, not the girls, and maybe]
Your phrase about "P4P options"...being "taken from us" reveals so much about you. Who the hell do you think you are and why do you think you have some right to P4P here?[/quote]

I am a human being, and P4P is a basic human right of both john and prostitute. For the State to interfere in such absolutely person matters is a clear violation of our rights.

[QUOTE=Opebo]I am a human being, and P4P is a basic human right of both john and prostitute. For the State to interfere in such absolutely person matters is a clear violation of our rights.[/QUOTE]

You're a funny guy, is what you are. Is that all you can come up with? I can't believe that you mean this silly statement to be taken seriously. But, I'll respond as if that's your intention.

No, Mr. O it's not your right, especially here. You are a guest. You have no rights or say in anything in LOS. As a Farang, your position here is so tenuous, you could be tossed out on your ass, without a reason. So, if the state wants to do something positive (job creation, increased salaries) to eradicate prostitution, it is THEIR right.

[QUOTE=Opebo]I am a human being, and P4P is a basic human right of both john and prostitute. For the State to interfere in such absolutely person matters is a clear violation of our rights.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]You're a funny guy, is what you are. Is that all you can come up with? I can't believe that you mean this silly statement to be taken seriously. But, I'll respond as if that's your intention.

No, Mr. O it's not your right, especially here. You are a guest. You have no rights or say in anything in LOS. As a Farang, your position here is so tenuous, you could be tossed out on your ass, without a reason. So, if the state wants to do something positive (job creation, increased salaries) to eradicate prostitution, it is THEIR right.[/QUOTE]

Opebo's statement, in itself, is not the slightest bit silly: It's completely correct. And you are also correct, OTH, that the Thai State can reduce prostitution to 'normal' levels through the [i]positive[/i] action that you and I long ago agreed is the way to go (something that Opebo, rather selfishly IMO, sees as a negative). But you and I both know that won't happen any time soon in that fucked-up country.

What point you are trying to make about the Thai Authorities being able to do what they want? Of course they can, the same as any country's Authorities. Are you issuing threats on ISG again? But what they won't do is change the (welcome) broad-opinioned discussions on ISG. And most of us ;) on here are far more civilised with Thai prostitutes than are the locals and others ;).

[QUOTE=Terry Terrier]Opebo's statement, in itself, is not the slightest bit silly: It's completely correct. And you are also correct, OTH, that the Thai State can reduce prostitution to 'normal' levels through the [i]positive[/i] action that you and I long ago agreed is the way to go (something that Opebo, rather selfishly IMO, sees as a negative). But you and I both know that won't happen any time soon in that fucked-up country.

What point you are trying to make about the Thai Authorities being able to do what they want? Of course they can, the same as any country's Authorities. Are you issuing threats on ISG again? But what they won't do is change the (welcome) broad-opinioned discussions on ISG. And most of us ;) on here are far more civilised with Thai prostitutes than are the locals and others ;).[/QUOTE]Only giving the girl a certain basic income in a regular job makes prostitution her real choice.

[QUOTE=Terry Terrier]Opebo's statement, in itself, is not the slightest bit silly: It's completely correct.[/QUOTE]

You can't be serious. Nobody has the 'right' to a prostitute. She has the right to make money any way she can, in order to survive. But, Opebo's belief in his entitlement is simply insulting to these women. The guy's a parasite and you know it.

[QUOTE=Terry Terrier] Are you issuing threats on ISG again?[/QUOTE]

What threat? I'm just stating a fact. I'm just as vulnerable as the next Farang in being tossed out of LOS for no reason. Anti-Farang sentiments are on the rise again as new edicts and rumours of new edicts kick in. An example of this is: at a time when there's a critical shortage of teachers in this country, especially English teachers, the Ministry of Education has just made it mandatory that all Farang teachers take a Thai Culture course for which they will be charged 7000 baht. There are other elements to this, including an age ceiling of 49. While on the surface, it may seem perfectly reasonable to require teachers to do this, the move, particularly the 7000 baht fee is designed to discourage Farang from teaching here. BTW it doesn't impact on me as I teach university and it's just for elementary and high school teachers. Still, it has sinister implications, and I understand that the new rule is forcing a lot of schools to hire Farang illegally which is only dangerous for the Farang - they could end up in jail, which has happened to a number of illegal teachers already.

More relevant to this thread is the news article to which Run Mann linked about the impact of Farang on Thai culture through mixed marriages, which continues to be a hot topic here. There's talk of putting limitations on Thai-Farang marriages and one way they might do this is further restrictions on visas.

Essentially, it's becoming more and more apparent that they just want Farang to come here for a holiday, spend their money and leave.

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]You can't be serious. Nobody has the 'right' to a prostitute. She has the right to make money any way she can, in order to survive. But, Opebo's belief in his entitlement is simply insulting to these women. The guy's a parasite and you know it.

What threat? I'm just stating a fact. I'm just as vulnerable as the next Farang in being tossed out of LOS for no reason. Anti-Farang sentiments are on the rise again as new edicts and rumours of new edicts kick in. An example of this is: at a time when there's a critical shortage of teachers in this country, especially English teachers, the Ministry of Education has just made it mandatory that all Farang teachers take a Thai Culture course for which they will be charged 7000 baht. There are other elements to this, including an age ceiling of 49. While on the surface, it may seem perfectly reasonable to require teachers to do this, the move, particularly the 7000 baht fee is designed to discourage Farang from teaching here. BTW it doesn't impact on me as I teach university and it's just for elementary and high school teachers. Still, it has sinister implications, and I understand that the new rule is forcing a lot of schools to hire Farang illegally which is only dangerous for the Farang - they could end up in jail, which has happened to a number of illegal teachers already.

More relevant to this thread is the news article to which Run Mann linked about the impact of Farang on Thai culture through mixed marriages, which continues to be a hot topic here. There's talk of putting limitations on Thai-Farang marriages and one way they might do this is further restrictions on visas.

Essentially, it's becoming more and more apparent that they just want Farang to come here for a holiday, spend their money and leave.[/QUOTE]So, I can't "retire" and then teach in Thailans if I'm over 49?

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]You can't be serious. Nobody has the 'right' to a prostitute. She has the right to make money any way she can, in order to survive. But, Opebo's belief in his entitlement is simply insulting to these women. The guy's a parasite and you know it.

[/QUOTE]

Surely if a product or service is for sale, whether it be a new car, holiday or prostitute, then everyone has a "right" to buy it, provided they can stump the asking price. It doesn't matter who it is. Opebo, OTH or even Thaksin himself!

I've never met Opebo, but from his posts, it would appear he always pays the girl her dues, regardless of the nature of her services. Why therefore do you brand him a parasite?

[QUOTE=Terry Terrier]And you are also correct, OTH, that the Thai State can reduce prostitution to 'normal' levels through the [i]positive[/i] action that you and I long ago agreed is the way to go (something that Opebo, rather selfishly IMO, sees as a negative)[/QUOTE]

Are you guys honestly suggesting that offering a woman a 'regular' wage, working 14 hour days in a factory or on a farm, is a positive change? The only people who will benefit from that strategy will be the religious right and the feminazis, who will be able to give themselves a big pat on the back for 'rescuing' hookers from prostitution. Do they care that these women will have to work for two weeks to make what they used to make in an hour? No. Anything is better than 'degrading' yourself as a prostitute.

For once (and it doesn't happen often, let me tell you!) I'm with Opebo. I OWN my breasts, my vagina, my arse and my skills in the bedroom. If I want to rent them out for a few hours, I should have every right to.

[QUOTE=Redfield10]So, I can't "retire" and then teach in Thailans if I'm over 49?[/QUOTE]

Probably not, unless you have highly desirable skills, a post-grad degree and can get a job teaching university (no age limits at unis): not an easy thing to do especially outside of Bangkok.

[QUOTE=Rubber Nursey]Are you guys honestly suggesting that offering a woman a 'regular' wage, working 14 hour days in a factory or on a farm, is a positive change? The only people who will benefit from that strategy will be the religious right and the feminazis, who will be able to give themselves a big pat on the back for 'rescuing' hookers from prostitution. Do they care that these women will have to work for two weeks to make what they used to make in an hour? No. Anything is better than 'degrading' yourself as a prostitute.

For once (and it doesn't happen often, let me tell you!) I'm with Opebo. I OWN my breasts, my vagina, my arse and my skills in the bedroom. If I want to rent them out for a few hours, I should have every right to.[/QUOTE]

By this post, it's clear you actually have zero understanding of Thailand. So, pretty well everything you say is irrelevant to this country.

What I am suggesting, is proper job creation, decent hours and wages and skills training. There are actually plans to build an IT industry in Khon Kaen and attempt to turn it in a regional IT hub. It may be wishful thinking. But, if it happens it could actually benefit the region greatly and provide alternatives for the people there.

BTW, there are no 'feminazis', nor is there a 'religious right' here. You must be lost in the west somewhere. There's nothing worse than a preachy hooker from a developed country, who clearly knows fuck all about Asia and the life of hookers here. For every supposed stunner commanding 5,000 baht a pop there are literally hundreds getting 100 baht or less in truck-stop brothels all over the country, not to mention that there are still girls forced into prostitution, chained to beds in the back alleys of Chinatown and Little India in Bangkok and also in Chiang Mai. Depressing, but true. How I know this is because a colleague of mine did a 2 year, in-depth research project on prostitution in Thailand and he's told me that there are women, who are basically indentured slaves earning as little as 75 baht per customer. I was pretty shocked that this is still happening here.

If LOS was like Holland and hookers had national health, and unemployment insurance, then it might actually be a viable career choice. But, given that as a career choice it has an incredibly short life span, no security, huge health risks, not to mention it generally renders the girls useless for doing much else later in life and makes them social outcasts within a relatively conservative culture, and hoping that there might be some positive changes that give the girls real alternatives seems to me to be an enlightened way of thinking.

Anyway, it's probably an incredibly stupid position to take on a web site dedicated to perpetuating prostitution. So, this is the last time I will be so 'preachy' myself on this topic.

[QUOTE=Rubber Nursey]Are you guys honestly suggesting that offering a woman a 'regular' wage, working 14 hour days in a factory or on a farm, is a positive change? The only people who will benefit from that strategy will be the religious right and the feminazis, who will be able to give themselves a big pat on the back for 'rescuing' hookers from prostitution. Do they care that these women will have to work for two weeks to make what they used to make in an hour? No. Anything is better than 'degrading' yourself as a prostitute.

For once (and it doesn't happen often, let me tell you!) I'm with Opebo. I OWN my breasts, my vagina, my arse and my skills in the bedroom. If I want to rent them out for a few hours, I should have every right to.[/QUOTE]

I believe that clearly the problem is not the prostitution but peoples attitudes to it. Everybody has to work to make money and we all take the most well paid job we get. If I could fuck for big money (the opposite sex of course), I have little doubt that I would.

Is it because most guys cannot market their sexual performance that they must look down on those who can?

It is believed that girls intellegence may actually a hindrence to being good in bed. Therefore many average or lower intellegence girls have their good looks and bedroom skills as their best most marketable assets.
Even highly intellegent women may find that sex pays better or some of them just like sex and getting men off.
I can't help thinking of a german girl i once met who had great looks, a great body, seemed smart, but loved sex with both men and women and so liked to work P4P and was orgasmic and made a lot of money from it. She had a husband as well.

I don't believe that sex work should be considered degrading. Sex is natural, sex is good. It is not evil to sell something good that is marketable purely due to the imbalance in supply and demand. Labelling it evil or illegal is a silly way of jacking up the price.

Many of us men find that paying a hooker for sex is actually cheaper than having a wife or girlfriend and get better sex as well. My ex-wife and ex-girlfriends were mostly very ordinary in bed. The ex GF who was really good in bed was a psycho case that was impossible to live with. We don't all make the greatest husbands either so outsourcing the sex can be a better idea.

The worst side of working P4P, in my view, is the dangers involved and the possibility of the womens enjoyment being spoiled.

The best thing about Thai hookers is that such a large percentage are able to enjoy sex (with the right customer) while earning money at the same time.
I don't understand why, but a much lower percentage of Australian hookers actually have an orgasm or at least enjoy sex while working, but there are some.
The common misconception of the media, that they believe no hooker ever orgasms at work, is incredible. Sheer stupidity. There are obviously always some who just cannot control themselves.

In Europe the percentage is higher but not quite as high as Thailand. Black girls and South American girls may be just about equally as horny as Thai girls in my experience, or perhaps even more so. They probably have better endurance than Thais. Black girls are usually best for marathon sex. Not sure why.

I think P4P girls are great (not all of them). I would be a hypocrit to think otherwise.
Don't know why I would pick up a girlfriend unless she can provide cheaper, better, and more frequent sex and they rarely seem to do that.
I seem to get hooked onto girlfriends for reasons that I cannot quite explain, but it never seems to be for the cheapest and best sex.

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]By this post, it's clear you actually have zero understanding of Thailand. So, pretty well everything you say is irrelevant to this country... There's nothing worse than a preachy hooker from a developed country, who clearly knows fuck all about Asia and the life of hookers here.[/QUOTE]
With all due respect, OTH, you are neither a woman nor a wh*re, but that doesn't stop you telling everyone how working girls in Thailand think and feel in every second post.

If you WERE a woman or a wh*re, you would know that this statement of yours - [i]given that as a career choice it has an incredibly short life span, no security, huge health risks, not to mention it generally renders the girls useless for doing much else later in life and makes them social outcasts within a relatively conservative culture[/i] - applies to basically every single hooker in every single country, 'developed' or not. These issues are not specific to Thailand, they're specific to sucking cock for cash.

The world over, Governments and do-gooders are running around trying to create 'real alternatives' to prostitution, without even bothering to ask whether it's something sex workers actually want. I can tell you right now, it isn't. And no, I'm not just speaking as a 'preachy Western hooker'. Go to the Empower website and you'll see Thai sex workers are saying exactly the same thing. (For the record, I have a lot more contact with Thai sex workers than you think - probably more than you do, in fact).

I wasn't asking for a rundown on the Thai sex industry...and excuse me if I don't put much credence in so-called 'prostitution research'. I was asking the poster of that last post - which wasn't you, by the way - if they honestly believed that forcing sex workers out of the sex industry and into jobs with lower pay and/or longer working hours could really be considered a positive change. Positive for who? The authorities, the Government, the abolitionist NGOs, perhaps. But sex workers themselves didn't ask for this. Thai sex workers are demanding labour rights, police protection and the right to choose sex work as a legal and legitimate occupation. And they're opposed to exit and re-training strategies.

Your paternalistic assertions that Thai hookers are somehow more 'unfortunate' than Western hookers, is extremely patronising and bordering on racist. Thai sex workers are masters in their field and they're envied and emulated by wh*res around the world. Give them some credit.

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]
BTW, there are no 'feminazis', nor is there a 'religious right' here. [/QUOTE]

Well... there are enough "do gooders from the Western Embassies and NGOs who would love nothering better than to eradicate prostitution as being degrading to women.

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]For every supposed stunner commanding 5,000 baht a pop there are literally hundreds getting 100 baht or less in truck-stop brothels all over the country, not to mention that there are still girls forced into prostitution, chained to beds in the back alleys of Chinatown and Little India in Bangkok and also in Chiang Mai. Depressing, but true. How I know this is because a colleague of mine did a 2 year, in-depth research project on prostitution in Thailand and he's told me that there are women, who are basically indentured slaves earning as little as 75 baht per customer. I was pretty shocked that this is still happening here.

If LOS was like Holland and hookers had national health, and unemployment insurance, then it might actually be a viable career choice. But, given that as a career choice it has an incredibly short life span, no security, huge health risks, not to mention it generally renders the girls useless for doing much else later in life and makes them social outcasts within a relatively conservative culture, and hoping that there might be some positive changes that give the girls real alternatives seems to me to be an enlightened way of thinking.
[/QUOTE]

OTH is correct here, but what is let out of the discussion is that many of the girls involved in prostitution in Thailand are just plain lazy. Why work in a rice field all day for 100 baht when you can "entertain" a farang and make a months wages in one night.

[QUOTE=Rubber Nursey]I wasn't asking for a rundown on the Thai sex industry...and excuse me if I don't put much credence in so-called 'prostitution research'. I was asking the poster of that last post - which wasn't you, by the way - if they honestly believed that forcing sex workers out of the sex industry and into jobs with lower pay and/or longer working hours could really be considered a positive change.
...[/QUOTE]Rubber Nursey,

Welcome to Thailand! Read a lot of your reports (in the other forums :) )...

With all due respect :) - in the beginning of this discussion you were not talking about [i]forcing sex workers out of the sex industry[/i], you were questioning "the guys" whether they were suggesting that [i]offering a woman a 'regular' wage, working 14 hour days in a factory[/i] were a positive change [for a p4p girl, as I understood].

Well, offering jobs in factories or farms can't be wrong at all, just to enable these women to even HAVE A CHOICE. Many of these women here in Thailand don't really have one.

As a bar owner I can assure you that at least here in Thailand (but I am quite sure that it is everywhere like this) the number of available p4p girls (in my case women who want to work in a bar) clearly depends on the economic situation of the country and the availibility of jobs in other professions. The better the situation of the economy is the less girls are working in bars.

There are lots of never ending discussions about the North-East of Thailand, an area with a huge population, the region where most of Thailands working girls are coming from, not much industry (= jobs) there but many farms. For many of us expats it seams to be wanted by the Thai elite that this area stays undeveloped and provides human resources for cheap labour and cheap pleasure for the rich Thais. [i]Offering[/i] jobs would for sure not be wrong in that area ...

Your kind of "professional" thinking does not really match with Thai tradition and culture. If a choice were possible many of the Thai p4p girls would work in industry jobs, even 14 hours a day for regular wages, to avoid loosing face within their families and villages. Some would of course remain in business though, most likely those who prefer the faster [and shall I say the easier ?] way of making money.


Giotto

OTH,

"If LOS was like Holland and hookers had national health, and unemployment insurance, then it might actually be a viable career choice."

Yeah, now you're the Holland specialist.

Perhaps, you understand what you're saying if I use your words:
"By this post, it's clear you actually have zero understanding of Holland. So, pretty well everything you say is irrelevant to this country... There's nothing worse than a preachy expat teacher from an undeveloped country, who clearly knows fuck all about Europe and the life of hookers here."

There.

RN,

Kisses,

Freeler

[QUOTE=Terry Terrier] And you are also correct, OTH, that the Thai State can reduce prostitution to 'normal' levels through the [i]positive[/i] action that you and I long ago agreed is the way to go[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Rubber Nursey]Are you guys honestly suggesting that offering a woman a 'regular' wage, working 14 hour days in a factory or on a farm, is a positive change? .[/QUOTE]
I was a part of this original discussion and agreed with OTH and TT when we all essentially said at different times that the Thai Hierarchy can reduce prostitution in their country much the same as the Koreans did by offering positive changes or words to that effect. You actually took “positive change” and ridiculed it by asking/implying if that meant working in a factory for 14 hours a day or forcing hookers to work in a factory; no one here had suggested anything close to that. Clearly that is not an example of positive change but offering people in the poorer parts of the country like Issan opportunities to compete for scholarships and acceptance into the top universities, encouraging businesses to invest in those areas so that employment opportunities are available and offering job/skills training in those communities are examples of positive change. Of course they would have to be able to secure employment with comparable market wages or if they can secure business loans should they choose that route to create their own businesses. Succeeding in having Thailand compete as a world economic force with fair trade and reduction in the blatant corruption are other examples. Those actions and other examples of leveling the playing field will help the country and its citizen reduce prostitution because the girls will at least have a viable alternative to prostitution.

A level playing field will help but if any woman still wants to be in the business after the playing field is leveled then it’s her right. However, I suspect that given viable, (not ridiculous ones like laboring in a factory for 14 hours) alternatives to prostitution, there would be a significant hooker reduction in this country. We should be grateful for hookers who choose their profession by choice despite having other viable opportunities and feel some guilt for the ones who make their decision by default because they had none.

[QUOTE=Run Mann]I was a part of this original discussion and agreed with OTH and TT when we all essentially said at different times that the Thai Hierarchy can reduce prostitution in their country much the same as the Koreans did by offering positive changes or words to that effect. You actually took “positive change” and ridiculed it by asking/implying if that meant working in a factory for 14 hours a day or forcing hookers to work in a factory; no one here had suggested anything close to that. Clearly that is not an example of positive change but offering people in the poorer parts of the country like Issan opportunities to compete for scholarships and acceptance into the top universities, encouraging businesses to invest in those areas so that employment opportunities are available and offering job/skills training in those communities are examples of positive change. Of course they would have to be able to secure employment with comparable market wages or if they can secure business loans should they choose that route to create their own businesses. Succeeding in having Thailand compete as a world economic force with fair trade and reduction in the blatant corruption are other examples. Those actions and other examples of leveling the playing field will help the country and its citizen reduce prostitution because the girls will at least have a viable alternative to prostitution.

A level playing field will help but if any woman still wants to be in the business after the playing field is leveled then it’s her right. However, I suspect that given viable, (not ridiculous ones like laboring in a factory for 14 hours) alternatives to prostitution, there would be a significant hooker reduction in this country. We should be grateful for hookers who choose their profession by choice despite having other viable opportunities and feel some guilt for the ones who make their decision by default because they had none.[/QUOTE]

Well said.

[QUOTE=Freeler]
Yeah, now you're the Holland specialist.Freeler[/QUOTE]

I never said I was a Holland expert. But, I've been there many times and have family there, so know something about the country. What part of my reference to Holland was incorrect? Everything I said is true.

..."prostitutes/sex workers have access to the social security system, may join unions, have to pay income tax and are treated like any other self-employed tradesperson. Health and social services are readily available..." Wikipedia (not always the best source for info. But, there are plenty of other sites with the same info).

Why don't you along with Opebo stick with promoting dubious 200 baht bangs in the back alleys of Isaan and leave the serious discussion to others?

[QUOTE=Rubber Nursey]With all due respect, OTH, you are neither a woman nor a wh*re, but that doesn't stop you telling everyone how working girls in Thailand think and feel in every second post.

If you WERE a woman or a wh*re, you would know that this statement of yours - [i]given that as a career choice it has an incredibly short life span, no security, huge health risks, not to mention it generally renders the girls useless for doing much else later in life and makes them social outcasts within a relatively conservative culture[/i] - applies to basically every single hooker in every single country, 'developed' or not. These issues are not specific to Thailand, they're specific to sucking cock for cash.

The world over, Governments and do-gooders are running around trying to create 'real alternatives' to prostitution, without even bothering to ask whether it's something sex workers actually want. I can tell you right now, it isn't. And no, I'm not just speaking as a 'preachy Western hooker'. Go to the Empower website and you'll see Thai sex workers are saying exactly the same thing. (For the record, I have a lot more contact with Thai sex workers than you think - probably more than you do, in fact).

I wasn't asking for a rundown on the Thai sex industry...and excuse me if I don't put much credence in so-called 'prostitution research'. I was asking the poster of that last post - which wasn't you, by the way - if they honestly believed that forcing sex workers out of the sex industry and into jobs with lower pay and/or longer working hours could really be considered a positive change. Positive for who? The authorities, the Government, the abolitionist NGOs, perhaps. But sex workers themselves didn't ask for this. Thai sex workers are demanding labour rights, police protection and the right to choose sex work as a legal and legitimate occupation. And they're opposed to exit and re-training strategies.

Your paternalistic assertions that Thai hookers are somehow more 'unfortunate' than Western hookers, is extremely patronising and bordering on racist. Thai sex workers are masters in their field and they're envied and emulated by wh*res around the world. Give them some credit.[/QUOTE]

Well at least one 'feminazi' has raised her ugly head.

BTW, Empower represents such a small percentage of hookers in Thailand that's it's importance and impact is neglible to non-existent.

Rubber Nursey,

Always good to have your input in the broader-scoping discussions.

But I think you are a little late to this one. Read back a bit to get the flavour. As Run Mann pointed out in his eminently sensible post, we are discussing [i]attractive[/i] alternatives for Thai prostitutes, not ones that are in any way coerced. In such an ideal scenario, those who would like to leave the profession but couldn't previously afford to could now do so.

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]...if the state wants to do something positive (job creation, increased salaries) to eradicate prostitution, it is THEIR right.[/QUOTE]
This is classic statist Marxist Socialist thinking, OTH. Frankly, I don’t believe you believe it. It’s rubbish. First of all, why do you consider the eradication of prostitution a ‘positive?’

Free markets are responsible for all true economic prosperity, and prostitution has thrived for millennia under all kinds of governments, and economic conditions. No government can eradicate prostitution by creating jobs or increasing salaries, (assuming that a government can actually create ANYTHING in the first place). If a government wants to eradicate prostitution, it will use a gun, just like it does to eradicate drugs. And it will fail just like the war on drugs has failed.

Economic prosperity does not preclude prostitution either, but only makes it more expensive relatively speaking. How do you reconcile your position, for example, with prostitution in Japan where the standard of living is highest in the world? There are all kinds of great paying jobs with increased salaries in Japan. Why is prostitution going strong now in China where the communist government meddles in everything?

Supply and demand! Where men demand sex, there will be women to supply it – for a price which is dictated by the level of that demand. It’s the first law of economics.

[QUOTE=Daddy07]First of all, why do you consider the eradication of prostitution a ‘positive?’ ...
...Supply and demand! Where men demand sex, there will be women to supply it – for a price which is dictated by the level of that demand. It’s the first law of economics.[/QUOTE]

Actually 'eradicate' was not the right word - too extreme and not possible. It's not called the 'oldest profession' for nothing. Also, personally, I'm not against prostitution and I didn't mean to come across as some kind of bible-thumping do-gooder who wants to save the girls. I simply suggest that creating an environment where good alternatives and choices are available is a "positive". Although it wouldn't be acceptable in Thai culture, prostitution being treated as a profession, and not being so exploitive would better. When you have denial and a desire to maintain the status quo, as is the case in Thailand, you have a recipe for exploitation, which while it may not happen so much in the Farang-oriented sex industry is sadly, all too common on the Thai side of things. Of course, it's all hypothetical. There's no way in hell that the Thais will ever do anything to change things radically enough to provide the opportunities to which I refer. This country thrives on exploitation and suppression of the masses. That's not about to change anytime soon.

Run Mann's take on this discussion is the most reasoned, IMO.

supply and demand.

a normal level of prostitution in a first world country is around about five hundred working girls per million of population. so, when thailand eventually gets up to speed with it's economy (which it will, eventually), there will (allowing for tourists and expats) be about 2 to 3000 prostitutes in pattaya. then, after the thai authorities do the final clean-up there will be the normal quota of a few hundred girls working in discreet locations, with seasonal increases just like in any tourist resort.

Run Mann, Giotto and Terry Terrier,

Thank you for your replies. I have to admit to writing my last two posts in the wee hours of the morning and in a very bad mood and they probably didn't come across in the manner that I meant them to. Exit and re-training is a subject that really gets my goat and I apologise for getting all emotional and not explaining myself properly. As an ex-hooker who has really been struggling to survive in 'real world' employment, I'm probably a little too close to the subject.

I totally support national programs to improve the social and economic status of women and I didn't mean to give the impression that I was opposed to job creation that may prevent some of those women ending up in sex work when they didn't really want to be there. But I get suspicious when a primary objective of a program is to cut and/or eradicate prostitution, because in most cases, it ends up targeting only women already working in the sex industry, not those 'at risk' of entering it. It depends whether the Thai Govt is really committed to creating a level playing field for all women, or if they just want to see a decrease in sex industry employment. That will determine whether women are really offered viable alternatives, or whether they are forced (which is probably too strong a word to use, but exit programs are often highly coercive) to leave sex work when they don't really want to.

Anyway, that's not why I wrote my original post - I was genuinely interested in your thoughts on the subject, but got carried away on another tangent. I was surprised to see P4P clients supporting plans to reduce supply, particularly in the Thailand forum. A client's view of the industry is unique and I really do like to hear how you guys perceive sex workers and the impression you get of their lives and loves. That's why I've hung around this board for so many years! So instead of asking roundabout questions that can be easily misinterpreted, I'll ask you outright - do you think that [i]current[/i] Thai sex workers would see (for example) working in an IT centre, as a viable alternative to sex work? Do you believe that any of the jobs they create will be truly comparable to sex work in regard to wages and hours?

Smooches, Freeler :) and Mick Licker, you rock. That was a beautiful post.

[QUOTE=Run Mann]...we all essentially said at different times that the Thai Hierarchy can reduce prostitution in their country much the same as the Koreans did by offering positive changes or words to that effect.[/QUOTE]
Just out of interest, in the past few years there has been a MASSIVE increase in Korean women migrating to other countries to work as sex workers. Australia is one of the primary destination countries, where we have seen at least a five-fold increase of Korean workers, but it's also been well documented in other countries. Korea's efforts to reduce prostitution coincided with changes to travel/visa restrictions, which led to many Korean sex workers 'fleeing' the Korean sex industry in search of better working conditions, better money and less (negative) attention from the Government and authorities.

To me, this is another example of coercive and/or abusive anti-prostitution strategies - being passed off as 'positive changes' and 'viable alternatives' for sex workers - failing dismally. The Korean Govt may be claiming a win on the war against prostitution, but all they've really done is send their sex workers to other countries. Not that we mind, of course - we're happy to have them. :)

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]Probably not, unless you have highly desirable skills, a post-grad degree and can get a job teaching university (no age limits at unis): not an easy thing to do especially outside of Bangkok.[/QUOTE]I have a Master's degree, of course. ;

If I move to Thaland it will be on a decent pension, but certainly don't want to spend all day and night chasing women. I'd be bored to death.

Ok, maybe four hours a day chasing.

By all means governments have a responsibility to try to create an environment where women will have lots of choices for work that can pay enough to live on. A lot easier said than done. Thai culture causes fathers to take their daughters out of school at a young age. The bad attitude of the father is that its a waste of money educating girls when their destiny is to become a housewife and look after the kids.

Other opportunities is not so important for prostitutes doing very well.
The problem is that there are too many P4P (full or part time) in Bangkok to allow them all to make a good living. then again there are too many taxis too.

The alternatives should be for those who cannot earn enough selling sex.

Educating women to delay having babies seems important to me. The number of single mothers, whose Thai husbands have run away abandoning both wife and child, that need to to get extra money somehow is extraordinary in Thailand.

There is no legally forced child support from fathers as far as I know.

Prostitution will never go away.
Those countries with few choices for well paid jobs but lots of pretty women, and any acceptance that sex itself is really not so evil, will always have the most P4P girls.

Just accept it and enjoy it! I envy those who are not sex addicts and can just leave sex alone.

I proudly support girls of Thailand and their kids financially unlike the real fathers of the those kids.

[QUOTE=Mick Licker]By all means governments have a responsibility to try to create an environment where women will have lots of choices for work that can pay enough to live on. A lot easier said than done. Thai culture causes fathers to take their daughters out of school at a young age. The bad attitude of the father is that its a waste of money educating girls when their destiny is to become a housewife and look after the kids.

Other opportunities is not so important for prostitutes doing very well.
The problem is that there are too many P4P (full or part time) in Bangkok to allow them all to make a good living. then again there are too many taxis too.

The alternatives should be for those who cannot earn enough selling sex.

Educating women to delay having babies seems important to me. The number of single mothers, whose Thai husbands have run away abandoning both wife and child, that need to to get extra money somehow is extraordinary in Thailand.

There is no legally forced child support from fathers as far as I know.

Prostitution will never go away.
Those countries with few choices for well paid jobs but lots of pretty women, and any acceptance that sex itself is really not so evil, will always have the most P4P girls.

Just accept it and enjoy it! I envy those who are not sex addicts and can just leave sex alone.

I proudly support girls of Thailand and their kids financially unlike the real fathers of the those kids.[/QUOTE]


Actually, you raise a very good point. Strong family law would be a really good first step. There's nothing in place now. Not surprising, as it's a patriarchal society and Thai men are nortorious for not accepting responsibility for anything. In fact most are never completely weened off their mother's tit and stay irresponsible babies all their lives.

[QUOTE=Rubber Nursey]
So instead of asking roundabout questions that can be easily misinterpreted, I'll ask you outright - do you think that [i]current[/i] Thai sex workers would see (for example) working in an IT centre, as a viable alternative to sex work? Do you believe that any of the jobs they create will be truly comparable to sex work in regard to wages and hours?.[/QUOTE]

If I may intrude in this lovely battle of wits, my personal view is that one cannot answer that question because in Thailand there are in fact at least two sex industries, one catering to local needs and one for the sex tourists. I have only limited insight into the Thai-oriented scene, but as far as the Farang-oriented market is concerned, my impression is that the Thai economy will probably never be able (nor willing) to compete to attract the best and brightest (and cutest) gals who can be successful in the naughty nightlife. There is simply too much money to be made too easily.

The other aspect is that for many of the Thai girls servicing the Farang market, it is a fun life to have. There is the excitement of the big city, the buzz of the nightlife, plentiful booze, plenty of funny friends to make, and enough money to indulge in the occasional shopping spree while still sending home the all important money that the family has come to expect. Anyhow, it sure beats taking care of the cattle home in Wherethefuckaburi or indeed working 14 hours a day in a meat packing factory in suburban Bangkok.

True, it is a relatively short career, but long-term planning is not a Thai strong point Besides, most of these gals had very little to lose in term of social face or respectability to start with and coming home to Wherethefuckaburi with enough money to build a decent house sort of compensates the social stigma.

I suppose that one could reason along similar lines for sex workers in the Thai scene, so that p4p in Thailand will stay, I guess, even if it is true that the sex scene is no more what it used to be. That may be because the top 10% of the potential sex workers have found better things to do with their lives, however I suspect that there is an increasingly important segment of the Thai p4p population that is now simply seeking to get better money abroad (Singapore or Macau for example) for the same work.

[QUOTE=Seydlitz]. Anyhow, it sure beats taking care of the cattle home in Wherethefuckaburi [/QUOTE]

Now what part of Isaan might that be in?

Perhaps that's Opebo's home town!

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]You're a funny guy, is what you are. Is that all you can come up with? I can't believe that you mean this silly statement to be taken seriously. But, I'll respond as if that's your intention.

No, Mr. O it's not your right, especially here. You are a guest. You have no rights or say in anything in LOS. As a Farang, your position here is so tenuous, you could be tossed out on your ass, without a reason. So, if the state wants to do something positive (job creation, increased salaries) to eradicate prostitution, it is THEIR right.[/QUOTE]

You are such a simplistic literalist, Old - I did not mean that one has a recognized right in Thai law to be free from State interference in one's sex life. I was referring to human rights in a more general, theoretical, and international sense - in other words my opinion of what should be human rights. Certainly in practice none of we working class persons have any rights at all, either at home or abroad. Rights are reserved - in fact - for the owning class.

It also became clear from some of your other posts that you misunderstood me in other ways. I did not imply that one has a right 'to a prostitute'. I stated that both john and prostitute have a right to expect to be free from State interference in their interactions. If you and she cannot come to an amicable arrangement then that's your problem.

[quote=rubber nursey]to me, this is another example of coercive and/or abusive anti-prostitution strategies - being passed off as 'positive changes' and 'viable alternatives' for sex workers - failing dismally. the korean govt may be claiming a win on the war against prostitution, but all they've really done is send their sex workers to other countries. not that we mind, of course - we're happy to have them. :)[/quote]
this is just poor diminutive flavor analysis of a given situation. this story about increase korean women entering australian has been out there for a while. after human traffickers started having visa and other issues bringing thai women into australia they focused their efforts on korean women by promising them the moon. not sure why you think all these women were originally sex workers but it’s actually a faulty assertion. many of them were ordinary women, (we have seen similar situation in other countries) that were duped and deceived with false promises of large sums of money for employment. korean women are inveterately known to be delicacies for many sexual appetites. go to london, nyc, los angeles, amsterdam and many other major cities and you will find them. they are there because of the demand for them not because of the crackdown. there are many examples of how the koreans have successfully transform their country but i see no reason to list them here.

i will agree with you on the point you made that you are too close this being a (former) sex worker yourself to be objective of which you seem not to be, at least as it pertains to this situation. you summarily dismissed oth’s research (presentation) because it was contrary to your view and you immaturely and incorrectly analyzed the above without any empirical data to support your claim coupled with your previous post here where you were off base (although you explained your reason for that) says that you are looking more for validation of your views than objective answers or analysis with your question in that last post. of course this is just my honest view based on what you’ve written here and not meant to attack you as a person. here are a couple of links to about koreans and some of their issue in australia and see the story below about increase koreans entering australian and a detail [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord908][CodeWord908][/url] report from the aussies that touch on the issues with the koreans.

having said all that i wish you well in what ever mission you are on but would say as you probably already know objectivity will produce the truth.

[url]http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23334240-12377,00.html[/url]

http://www.prostitutionresearch.com/what's%20new/australiatrafficking.pdf

[url]http://www.santacruzsentinel.com/ci_8479109[/url]________________________________________________________________
australian sex traffickers target korean women

sydney - traffickers are turning to south korean women after a crackdown by australian police on the importation of "sex slaves" from thailand, australia's national broadcaster has charged.

the australian crime commission confirmed that while the number of thai sex workers in australia had decreased, the number from south korea had increased, the abc website reported yesterday.
"traffickers in particular knew that thai women were being watched more, they were being scrutinised more," said kathleen altzahn from the non-government organisation project respect.

"in the case specifically of south korean women, they don't have to get the same sort of visas as thai women. they can get working holiday visas, so then they can work legally in australia without so much difficulty."
thai women are often gang-raped, starved and beaten to coerce them into accepting the conditions of contracts which demand they pay "debts" of up to a$50,000 ($37,500) to the traffickers, she said.

a former sex worker, nikki, told the lateline programme that there seemed to be a shift where thai women were still being brought out to australian brothels but so were many korean women. "traffickers are just finding another way, basically, to get around things," she said. "it's gone from thai women and now there's a demand for let's say more exotic asian women like korean women. "i have a prediction that the next spate will be african women. and where there is a demand, someone will supply."

justice minister chris ellison was quoted as saying he was pleased that the shift from thai women to south korean women had been picked up because police could now adjust their tactics.

[QUOTE=Run Mann]Not sure why you think all these women were originally sex workers but it’s actually a faulty assertion. Many of them were ordinary women as we have seen in from many other countries that were duped and deceived with false promises of large sums of money for employment.[/QUOTE]
I've been heavily involved in issues around trafficking in Australia for a number of years and I can't even begin to tell you how ill-informed the Australian media is on the issue. Groups like Project Respect, quoted in the article you posted, rely heavily on promoting and perpetuating trafficking myths so they'll keep getting bucketfuls of money thrown at them. With encouragement from people like the US Government, they've turned trafficking into a multi-million dollar 'rescue' industry. The Australian Institute of Criminology is due to release a report which will hopefully open a few people's eyes to the realities of trafficking in Australia.

My comment wasn't a scientific analysis of the situation - it was just my personal opinion (I did say 'to me'). However, my opinion is based on both anecdotal evidence from Korean sex workers and empirical data.
[url]http://www.scarletalliance.org.au/issues/migrant-workers/2008/[/url]
[url]http://www.scarletalliance.org.au/issues/migrant-workers/[/url]
[url]http://www.scarletalliance.org.au/issues/migration/[/url]

As to dismissing OTH's colleague's research, I was a bit miffed at his suggestion that I knew nothing about prostitution, but is mate does because he's done some study about it. It was childish of me to get snappy, but to be fair, OTH then dismissed Empower as an ineffectual rabble (which is absolutely untrue) because [i]he[/i] didn't agree with [i]my[/i] point of view. He also turned the whole thing into a very personal attack, which I wasn't prepared for and responded badly to.

I'm not looking for validation of my own beliefs. I know exactly where I stand on the issue of education and re-training and I'm not likely to change my mind unless I see an example of some sort of success. What I'm interested in is how other people (clients, NGOs, Govts, etc) justify these sorts of programs. I like to hear different perspectives...although I admit it's mostly so I can develop arguments against alternative opinions. ;) But if every one of you guys had answered 'Yes, I think Thai hookers would leave the industry in droves if they opened an IT centre', then I might have to reconsider my position, or at least try and see the issue from a different angle.

[QUOTE=Seydlitz]The other aspect is that for many of the Thai girls servicing the Farang market, it is a fun life to have. There is the excitement of the big city, the buzz of the nightlife, plentiful booze, plenty of funny friends to make, and enough money to indulge in the occasional shopping spree while still sending home the all important money that the family has come to expect.[/QUOTE]
That's a really important point, Seydlitz, and one that's often overlooked when talking about viable alternatives to sex work. For many girls, hooking is not just about the money - it's an entire lifestyle. When workers leave the industry, they are often also walking away from their friends, their social lives and sometimes even their sex lives.

The stigma of sex work can really impact on your ability to maintain relationships with people outside the sex industry, to the point where just about everyone you know is either a hooker, a client or a brothel owner. When you 'get a real job' you have to leave your entire support network behind, especially in cases where being seen with your old workmates could put your current employment at risk. It's very, very hard to walk away from everything you know and love.

[QUOTE=Rubber Nursey]
As to dismissing OTH's colleague's research, I was a bit miffed at his suggestion that I knew nothing about prostitution, but is mate does because he's done some study about it. It was childish of me to get snappy, but to be fair, OTH then dismissed Empower as an ineffectual rabble (which is absolutely untrue) because [i]he[/i] didn't agree with [i]my[/i] point of view. He also turned the whole thing into a very personal attack, which I wasn't prepared for and responded badly to.[/QUOTE]

Firstly, Empower largely represents girls in the Farang-oriented sex industry which makes up less than 10% of the total sex industry in Thailand. It doesn't for instance represent Burmese sex slaves languishing in hundreds of border brothels, nor the Indian hookers trafficked into Paharat in Bangkok.

I never said you knew nothing about prostitution, I said you appeared to know little about prostitution in Thailand especially as it relates to Thai culture. But, perhaps my assessment was wrong.

"Some study" that my collegaue did was an intense, thorough 2-year investigation into every nook and cranny of the sex industry in Thailand. It was so thorough in fact, that it sent shivers through the Thai ministry that funded it and they immediately buried it as too explosive. The last thing the Thai government wants made public is the shameful truth about the pervasive and sinister dark side of prostitution in this country.

If by personal attack, you mean because I called you a feminazi; well perhaps that was unfair. But, you were coming across a bit strident and femi-something and you weren't too objective in your comments about me, as well. Even if all of us don't agree, it's best to try to keep it non-personal.

[QUOTE=Rubber Nursey]It was childish of me to get snappy, but to be fair, OTH then dismissed Empower as an ineffectual rabble (which is absolutely untrue) because [i]he[/i] didn't agree with [i]my[/i] point of view. He also turned the whole thing into a very personal attack, which I wasn't prepared for and responded badly to. [/QUOTE]
Then I suppose you can see why you came across as I described (too emotionally involved), still his actions doesn't justify yours.

Those stories about the Korean women being trafficked and there are more stories, were also reported by the Korean and U.S media unless that are all lying about those women being trafficked. Interesting that after reading that article by where the Australian Government identified the reasoning for the influx of Koreans, you attempt to counter that factual article because it is in contrast to your opinion. I did not see anything in those articles you posted that supported your opinion. However, even though you said it was your opinion and used an event incorrectly as a precursor to your opinion, you should be responsible in making opinionated claims that any minor research would have produce the answers to if you are serious about being, that word again.. objective. Good luck.

[quote=rubber nursey]i've been heavily involved in issues around trafficking in australia for a number of years and i can't even begin to tell you how ill-informed the australian media is on the issue. groups like project respect, quoted in the article you posted, rely heavily on promoting and perpetuating trafficking myths so they'll keep getting bucketfuls of money thrown at them. with encouragement from people like the us government, they've turned trafficking into a multi-million dollar 'rescue' industry. the australian institute of criminology is due to release a report which will hopefully open a few people's eyes to the realities of trafficking in australia.
[/quote]
i have been aquainted with several girls working illegally in australia in the past (mostly thai but some others).
i haven't been to places where girls are totally locked up like sex slaves. i wouldn't have been let in.

the girls i knew had several enemies:
1. the australian immigration out to catch them, lock them up in detention, and send them back to their home country.
2. the contract bosses who had tricked them, taking virtually all the money earned until the massive contract was paid off.
some bosses would report girls to immigration once the debt was paid off. mostly the girls' passports had been confirep001ed by the bosses to prevent girls escaping. some girls were kept under very strict "supervision" all the time.
but not all bosses were totally evil.
3. other working girls jealous of the foreign girl's popularity would report them to immigration.

the customers were the good guys (mostly) and some customers helped girls to escape from their extreme situations.

some girls who were really lucky made a lot of money in the end and much more than what they could have in their home country.

the authorities should have been focussing on illegal activities of the contract bosses, be it taxation fraud, stealing passports, selling girls on to a 3rd party, imprisoning girls, coercing girls to work with no work permit, etc.
the girls themselves were just pawns in the play.

its very strange to government authorities deporting foreign prostitutes, seemingly to protect the higher priced business of australian prostitutes who delivered a poor service on average (a few good ones but mostly lousy in my opinion), and protecting the very lucrative business of brothel owners not using the illegal foreign workers.

the european common market is great because it allows prostitutes to work, coming from a very broad set of foreign countries, although the fkk clubs in germany do have police raids from time to time too, checking credentials for working (could be looking for **** girls).

I tried doing the same with Western women and all they wanted was more and more and in return treated the dog better. At least the dog got fed regularly and occasionally got sex. If I wanted something to eat I fixed it myself and if I wanted sex I had to either do it myself or find it elsewhere. And if I went looking eslewhere you could hear the Western wife bitching a mile away. Different with the Thai wife. From the very beginning I told her that I needed sex regularly and if she didn't give it to me then I would get it elsewhere. Thai women seem to accept this as a fact of life.

Just copied the above from the BKK reports as it should be in this thread.

I wanted to know if you ever needed to go elsewhere for sex, I was in Philippines last week for a holiday but failed to tell my TG I was going. Had to admit I was not at home, she had decided by herself I was there fucking around without any help from me. She knows I have friends in Philippines she doesn't know they are bargirls. But to her any female friend must be a fuck buddy.

I have a few thai girls I chat to online, some very flirty and like to play the field. Others are definitely one man girls and their men will definitely be one girl guys.

I guess every girl has their own idea as to what is acceptable and what is not.

PS. she is still talking to me even if I failed to take her on holiday with me or spend my holiday with her. I will be back in BKK later this year to see her.

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]If by personal attack, you mean because I called you a feminazi; well perhaps that was unfair. But, you were coming across a bit strident and femi-something and you weren't too objective in your comments about me, as well. Even if all of us don't agree, it's best to try to keep it non-personal.[/QUOTE]
C'mon, OTH...you also called me a preachy Western hooker and told me I knew fuck all about anything! But I shouldn't have bitten back and I apologise for my short temper. I'm actually about as far from a feminazi as you're ever going to meet and I'm on your side (that is, P4P clients' side) in this fight. I come to this site to learn and you guys have been invaluable in increasing my understanding of international issues over the years. I'd really like to be able to chat without things getting nasty.

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]Empower ....doesn't for instance represent Burmese sex slaves languishing in hundreds of border brothels, nor the Indian hookers trafficked into Paharat in Bangkok.[/QUOTE]
They try, OTH. They keep their ear to the ground and their finger on the pulse and try very hard to be aware of, and support, women from all over the Thai sex industry. But when I originally referred to Empower, I was talking about a specific issue. Trafficking and sex slavery are very different to exit and re-training and/or preventing women entering the sex industry. Empower does not support the latest efforts by the Thai Govt because of the potential negative impact on current sex workers and I respect their assessment as experts in their field. But either way, exit programs will not prevent traffickers exploiting and abusing women. Providing alternative employment MAY give local women options other than entering prostitution themselves or engaging middle men to find them work, but it won't stop situations where girls are bought and sold into prostitution (the potential financial rewards are just too large compared to 'regular' work), nor will it stop women from outside Thailand being smuggled into the country. The two issues have to be looked at separately.

My problem with this (and every other 'eradication' method employed by every other country) is that it's simply a bandaid solution. It's treatment for a symptom, rather than a cure for the illness. It doesn't address ANY of the larger problems associated with leaving the industry. For example, one of the primary things that these sorts of initiatives usually ignore, is the stigma associated with being an ex-hooker. Even in my own country, you can train and re-skill a sex worker all you like, but the gaps in her resume, the paper trail detailing her brothel employment, or the prostitution convictions on her record, will always brand her as a wh*re and jeopardise her chances of regular employment. With the added issues of class and 'face' in Asian countries, I can only imagine the difficulties Thai hookers face when trying to leave sex work.

The Thai Government needs to introduce anti-discrimination legislation. They need to stop taking down names and/or arresting sex workers. They need to stop police going to villages and blackmailing ex-sex workers under threat of disclosure. And they need to do all this at the same time as they start offering sex workers alternative employment, because without these protections, ex-hookers cannot survive in the real world. Governments and abolitionist NGOs need to stop focusing on the 'sex' part of sex work and start taking a more wholistic view. It's just not as simple as offering someone another job.

[QUOTE=Run Mann]Interesting that after reading that article by where the Australian Government identified the reasoning for the influx of Koreans, you attempt to counter that factual article because it is in contrast to your opinion.[/QUOTE]
I can't believe we're having an argument based on what appears in the media! I don't believe a single word the newspapers tell me - I believe only what I see and hear for myself, from first-hand sources. A couple of years ago, I was involved in a series of interviews by a reporter with an overtly anti-sex work agenda. After a lengthy email and two follow-up phone conversations, you know what his eventual article said? "Representatives from [organisation name] were unavailable for comment".

We're wh*res, Run Mann. Whether it's the Australian sex worker association or an international sex worker representative, our opinions and experiences count for nothing in this debate. It doesn't matter that we're actually the ones advising the Australian Govt, the Federal Police, the Immigration Dept...even the US State Dept...on Australian sex industry issues. The papers will only speak to the abolitionist NGOs running rescue programs, because traffickers and sex slaves make good copy. International media runs it for the same reason - especially America, because they started all this and they have something to prove.

You don't have to agree with anything I say. I don't believe anything I haven't experienced for myself and neither should you. But I have no ulterior motives and no reason to bullshit anyone. My only concern in the world is the health and safety of sex workers, be they Australian, Thai, Korean or Martian. I don't make any money doing what I do, nor do I stand to benefit from any changes to policy (as I don't work in the industry any more). I live in a wealthy country that's prepared to spend money assisting people in the Asia-Pacific region and I intend to see that it's spent wisely, not wasted chasing shadows.

[QUOTE=Bob Down]
I wanted to know if you ever needed to go elsewhere for sex, I was in Philippines last week for a holiday but failed to tell my TG I was going. Had to admit I was not at home, she had decided by herself I was there fucking around without any help from me. She knows I have friends in Philippines she doesn't know they are bargirls. But to her any female friend must be a fuck buddy.

I have a few thai girls I chat to online, some very flirty and like to play the field. Others are definitely one man girls and their men will definitely be one girl guys.

I guess every girl has their own idea as to what is acceptable and what is not.

PS. she is still talking to me even if I failed to take her on holiday with me or spend my holiday with her. I will be back in BKK later this year to see her.[/QUOTE]


Only a couple of times. Once I got caught red handed taking a girl from Thermae. The receptionst at the hotel was a friend of my GF and knew who I was even though I had no Ideas she knew my GF. First thing she did was call my GF and bust me. TGF was mad for a couple of days, then moved off the issue and has never broughjt it up since. Ever since that episode I have stuck to high end escort agencies and five star hotels to ensure something similar doesn't happen again.

My question for you is: how do you know that your Thai GF isn't doing the same thing you are?

[QUOTE=Rubber Nursey]They try, OTH. They keep their ear to the ground and their finger on the pulse and try very hard to be aware of, and support, women from all over the Thai sex industry. But when I originally referred to Empower, I was talking about a specific issue. Trafficking and sex slavery are very different to exit and re-training and/or preventing women entering the sex industry. Empower does not support the latest efforts by the Thai Govt because of the potential negative impact on current sex workers and I respect their assessment as experts in their field. But either way, exit programs will not prevent traffickers exploiting and abusing women. Providing alternative employment MAY give local women options other than entering prostitution themselves or engaging middle men to find them work, but it won't stop situations where girls are bought and sold into prostitution (the potential financial rewards are just too large compared to 'regular' work), nor will it stop women from outside Thailand being smuggled into the country. The two issues have to be looked at separately.

My problem with this (and every other 'eradication' method employed by every other country) is that it's simply a bandaid solution. It's treatment for a symptom, rather than a cure for the illness. It doesn't address ANY of the larger problems associated with leaving the industry. For example, one of the primary things that these sorts of initiatives usually ignore, is the stigma associated with being an ex-hooker. Even in my own country, you can train and re-skill a sex worker all you like, but the gaps in her resume, the paper trail detailing her brothel employment, or the prostitution convictions on her record, will always brand her as a wh*re and jeopardise her chances of regular employment. With the added issues of class and 'face' in Asian countries, I can only imagine the difficulties Thai hookers face when trying to leave sex work.

The Thai Government needs to introduce anti-discrimination legislation. They need to stop taking down names and/or arresting sex workers. They need to stop police going to villages and blackmailing ex-sex workers under threat of disclosure. And they need to do all this at the same time as they start offering sex workers alternative employment, because without these protections, ex-hookers cannot survive in the real world. Governments and abolitionist NGOs need to stop focusing on the 'sex' part of sex work and start taking a more wholistic view. It's just not as simple as offering someone another job.[/QUOTE]

That's a good, informative post, Rubber Nursey. It goes some way to explaining why the vast majority of ex-bargirls in my home region live normal non-prostitution lifestyles: It's about the best 'new start' (with mostly people who don't know their backgrounds) that they will ever get, and most of them are clever enough to take it.

[quote=terry terrier]it's about the best 'new start' (with mostly people who don't know their backgrounds) that they will ever get, and most of them are clever enough to take it.[/quote]
in just the past few months, three australian school teachers and two police officers have been discovered, fired and then humiliated in the national media for being ex-hookers. and all in states where sex work is legal! you can imagine the message this sends to current hookers considering leaving the industry, or to ex-workers now working in 'respected' fields. it can stop you applying for those sorts of jobs at all, leaving you to choose between a 'safe' (usually low paying) job like retail or hospitality, or staying in the sex industry.

as you said, the best new start is in a place where people don't know your background, which brings with it another set of problems. it often means starting fresh in an unfamiliar environment, with limited social support networks. it's imperative that exit strategies include additional resources for confidential peer support services, because if the girls don't feel like they can manage in the 'real world', they'll head straight back to the world they know.

the people most in need of viable employment alternatives - like the women that oth talked about, working in exploitative conditions - often have the most barriers to participation. they likely have fewer social supports, lower levels of education and may be suffering the effects of violence and trauma, like low self-esteem or social phobias. being 'low end' providers, they've probably had more contact with the police and might have criminal records. in my understanding, they're also more likely to have been servicing local men (correct me if i'm wrong) or maybe working the streets, so they'd have more risk of being recognised. these women will not survive in the real world if you just hand them a new job and leave them to their own devices.

governments and ngos never look at the big picture issues, which is why so many re-education/rehabilitation programs around the world have failed. again, it's about whether they're doing it for the welfare of sex workers, or just to reduce sex industry numbers (who cares how they cope, so long as they're gone).

ps: oth - can i ask [i]why[/i] your colleague was commissioned to do that research? what had the govt originally hoped to establish?

[QUOTE=Rubber Nursey]PS: OTH - Can I ask why your colleague was commissioned to do that research? What had the Govt originally hoped to establish?[/QUOTE]

A lot of times, the Thai government commissions studies because there's money that has to be spent, not because anyone is really interested in the results.

But, in this case I think they were originally trying to prove that prostitution wasn't nearly as pervasive or as bad as the NGOs were saying. They ended up with egg on their faces. For example, they have always stuck to the official figure of 75,000 as the number of prostitutes in Thailand. The NGOs have always maintained its around 2,000,000 and my colleague's study supported that latter figure, which alone pissed off the government. In a typical Thai move, they called the study 'faulty' and shelved it. Of course, the empirical evidence was beyond doubt. But, they simply ignored it.

Having lived in HK and Korea for about 2 years now I find that alot of Asian girls do not pluck their light mustache. This is more even true for Thai girls. I have seen some of the most beautiful girls (not ladyboys) with a light upper lip hair that is really noticeable from their profile. Both young and older gals are sporting it like it was in style. Even a good Thai friend of mine in HK has this mustache. I want to tell her about it but might be to offensive even for a friend to say. So what do you guys think. Remember these are not katoey but real ladies.

[QUOTE=Retired Army]Only a couple of times. Once I got caught red handed taking a girl from Thermae. The receptionst at the hotel was a friend of my GF and knew who I was even though I had no Ideas she knew my GF. First thing she did was call my GF and bust me. TGF was mad for a couple of days, then moved off the issue and has never broughjt it up since. Ever since that episode I have stuck to high end escort agencies and five star hotels to ensure something similar doesn't happen again.

My question for you is: how do you know that your Thai GF isn't doing the same thing you are?[/QUOTE]

Good question, I have no answer to that. She lied to her own mother about spending the night with me. Told her mother she was on a girls night out. So if she can lie to her own mother she can lie to me too. I am still working on the is she playing me or not.

She even joked about finding a gig as it will be almost a year before I see her again.

There is only one girl in BKK that I trust and she is already taken, she is very much inlove with her man and is a good source of advice about all things Thai, she is even happy to introduce me to her girlfriend even if she knows I see bargirls.

Still yet to meet the girlfriend. Have seen pictures and she is kind of cute.

[QUOTE=Bob Down]

She even joked about finding a gig as it will be almost a year before I see her again.

[/QUOTE]

Unlikely to be a joke! Will you go without for a year? I doubt it, especially if it is handed to you on a plate. Why should she? Women used to be about keeping their men happy, but nowadays they consider themselves, and unless there is something wrong with her, she will have a hungry pussy many times during the next year!

There are 10 Thai girls in my village with either husband or boyfriend away, all sending money regularly. And every one of them has another man! As Trink would say TIT

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]In a typical Thai move, they called the study 'faulty' and shelved it. Of course, the empirical evidence was beyond doubt. But, they simply ignored it.[/QUOTE]
That's exactly why I said in my earlier post that I have very little faith in prostitution research. Maybe I should have qualified that as 'available' or 'published' prostitution research. Soooo many studies never see the light of day because their findings are contrary to the popular understanding of sex work, or because someone high-up might end up with that same egg on their face. Most available research is highly subjective or down-right biased and unethical.

Interesting that the Thai Govt prefers to underestimate the size of their sex industry. (Over here, numbers are routinely OVERestimated). Thailand is considered both a source and destination country for trafficking by the US TIP report and would likely be under a lot of pressure to prove they're doing something to rectify the situation. That report is causing a lot of Asian countries to fudge numbers, deny problems and launch aggressive campaigns against the sex industry. Which, of course, only [i]increases[/i] the risk of trafficking and other abuses occurring....but that's a whole other rant. :)

Was that 2,000,000 an 'at any one time' figure, or an 'over a certain period of time' figure? In case that doesn't make any sense, the estimated number of street-based sex workers in my city, over the course of a year, is around 200. But there are generally only between 5 and 10 street girls working at any one time. The transient nature of sex work can make firm numbers difficult to ascertain.

[QUOTE=Rubber Nursey]
Was that 2,000,000 an 'at any one time' figure, or an 'over a certain period of time' figure?[/QUOTE]

2,000,000 at one time. It remains the current estimate of the number of active prostitutes in the country.

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]2,000,000 at one time. It remains the current estimate of the number of active prostitutes in the country.[/QUOTE]

Probably 1 million + occasional prostitutes - ie once a month or less. Regular prostitutes, (full time bar, massage or brothel workers) and street girls likely to be around 500,000.

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]2,000,000 at one time. It remains the current estimate of the number of active prostitutes in the country.[/QUOTE]
Wow. So I guess by sticking with the 'official' number of 75,000, they're only really admitting to the existence of the Farang-oriented industry, not the local industry?

Do you think that's just a cheeky attempt to make the 'problem' look smaller than it is, or is there perhaps a distinction made in Thai society between the Farang market and the Thai market? You know...servicing tourists seen as more of a commercial enterprise, whereas women (of a certain class) servicing locals is, I don't know, an expectation? A duty? A tradition?

Actually, on that note, is there a difference in the way sex workers are treated in Thai society depending on whether they work in the Farang or Thai sectors?

[QUOTE=Rubber Nursey]
Actually, on that note, is there a difference in the way sex workers are treated in Thai society depending on whether they work in the Farang or Thai sectors?[/QUOTE]

Probably.

It seems to be the ones who work in the farang sector, who have money, build nice homes in their villages, provide family with motorbikes etc. They are the ones who are accepted in their villages. Those that work in the Thai sector generally hide the fact, since they have nothing much to show for it, and merely eke out a basic living.

[QUOTE=Rubber Nursey]Wow. So I guess by sticking with the 'official' number of 75,000, they're only really admitting to the existence of the Farang-oriented industry, not the local industry?

Do you think that's just a cheeky attempt to make the 'problem' look smaller than it is, or is there perhaps a distinction made in Thai society between the Farang market and the Thai market? You know...servicing tourists seen as more of a commercial enterprise, whereas women (of a certain class) servicing locals is, I don't know, an expectation? A duty? A tradition?[/QUOTE]

The Thais like to blame the Farang for the existence of the sex industry. The visibility of it makes it quite easy to point a finger. Ironically, the power elite own large segments of the sex industry, have made their wealth from it and the true origins, if one wants to point a finger can be laid at the feet of the Chinese.

As an interesting sidebar, the Thais had brothels attached to their temples 500 years ago. Of course, revisionist historians and cultural defenders don't like to be reminded of this.


[QUOTE=Rubber Nursey]Actually, on that note, is there a difference in the way sex workers are treated in Thai society depending on whether they work in the Farang or Thai sectors?[/QUOTE]

The ones from the Farang-oriented industry might be treated better on the surface because they have money. But, just below the surface, they are universally vilified by all levels of Thai society. Such is Thai hypocricy.

[QUOTE=Bumholes1]Probably 1 million + occasional prostitutes - ie once a month or less. Regular prostitutes, (full time bar, massage or brothel workers) and street girls likely to be around 500,000.[/QUOTE]
In western society we have a lot of girls who just go out and pick someone up for some casual sex.

I think this is less prevalent in Thailand (due to culture). So the majority of girls going to a pick up place will be looking for some financial help (and needing it). And yet these girls can be very choosy about who they go with, in many cases going empty handed because they didn't like the guys who approached.

In many cases no money was discussed with me at all. They were too shy. On the other hand they did not refuse to accept money when leaving and sometimes were surprised that I was reasonably generous. Many of these girls were very much part timers and only going out when short of money. So there are very large numbers of casual P4P girls that have regular jobs as well (or maybe between jobs) and may well be able to keep their P4P status secret. However girls will often be suspected of being some old man's 2nd wife (or 3rd).

One Thai girl I know, who has lived abroad for many years, picked up a Thai man in a BKK club, and although she wasn't expecting him to pay, was very shocked when found that he was expecting her to pay. She claimed he was lousy too.

[QUOTE=Bumholes1]Unlikely to be a joke! Will you go without for a year? I doubt it, especially if it is handed to you on a plate. Why should she? Women used to be about keeping their men happy, but nowadays they consider themselves, and unless there is something wrong with her, she will have a hungry pussy many times during the next year!

There are 10 Thai girls in my village with either husband or boyfriend away, all sending money regularly. And every one of them has another man! As Trink would say TIT[/QUOTE]

My girl may or may not have a gig, I am not to know or care. I know enough to know it is a possiblity. Maybe OTH's girl also has a gig as may Mick Lickers girl, can either of them be sure. I have meet a number of girls in my travels that have foreign husbands and local boyfriends, I even know a girl that has two Thai boyfriends in the same city.

But in saying that I know girls that are only interested in have one husband/boyfriend. It all depends on the girl I guess.

SE Asain woman can NOT deepthroat!. That is all. Return to your regularlly scheduled postings!:D

[QUOTE=Rubber Nursey]....
Actually, on that note, is there a difference in the way sex workers are treated in Thai society depending on whether they work in the Farang or Thai sectors?[/QUOTE]

I don't know if Thai society treats them any different. But I've seen how Thai men treat P4P ladies in Thailand. And it was a lot different from the way Farangs treat them.

The Thai P4P lady I knew worked at a road-side restaurant near a small town in north-east Thailand. And some of the Thai men who stopped there apparently wanted more than just the food service from her. Which she was willing to provide.

I was sitting in that restaurant. And I've seen how one Thai man wooed this P4P lady. Basically, he tried to show his generosity by buying some expensive dishes, including alcoholic beverages for himself and her. And he treated her like a beautiful lady (which she was) with respect and some admiration.

A year later I've heard about this P4P lady that she listened to some people's advice and went to Pattaya to try her hand with the farangs. And she couldn't stand it. She left Pattaya and went back to her P4P work with Thai men.

The Thai men didn't pay her as much as farangs did. But she prefered the Thai men anyway. Perhaps the farangs were a little too business-like for her. And they didn't show her enough respect.

But on another note. My impression is that there isn't any clear separation in Thailand between P4P ladies and those who are not. Any single Thai lady is fair game for Thai men, when she is alone without any male escort. And if she is attractive enough. Then she gets plenty of offers from the men all the time, whether they can pay her or not. And whether she accepts these offers or not is often a matter of whether she can do it in a discreet way without ruining her reputation. A lady who is travelling far away from her home village is more likely to accept such offers.

[QUOTE=Dan7373]My impression is that there isn't any clear separation in Thailand between P4P ladies and those who are not. Any single Thai lady is fair game for Thai men, when she is alone without any male escort. [/QUOTE]

There is a separation but you may not be looking at the country conceptually which is why you made the statement above. Hookers always stand out in any society, they act different, they look different and their make up change after being involved in the life for any prolong period and their views and thinking change. Of course there are exceptions and this issue has been discussed here many times but many posters who will tell you there are vast contrasts between Thai hookers and regular Thai women and in my experience I have also found this to be true but then again it would be true in any society or country.

[QUOTE=Run Mann] Hookers always stand out in any society, they act different, they look different and their make up change after being involved in the life for any prolong period and their views and thinking change....[/QUOTE]

Many single women in Thailand do some hooking until they get married. And their hooking period may not be that prolonged, especially if the lady is attractive.

I'm sure you can find ladies at both extremes of the hooking spectrum. Those who are very professional and go all out to make money from men. And those who hook reluctantly, only when the men are persistent enough with them. But there also are plenty of women who are in between these two extremes.

The reason why westerners insist on a clear separation between P4P ladies and those who are not is perhaps due their cultural conditioning in the West.

Most western women never hook for money directly. And only some western women do. But there is no reason why people of other cultures must have the same mind-set as the westerners have. And in many cases, such as in Thailand, they don't have such a mind-set.

[QUOTE=Dan7373]Many single women in Thailand do some hooking until they get married.
[/QUOTE]
You are making this claim based on what?

[QUOTE=Dan7373]
The reason why westerners insist on a clear separation between P4P ladies and those who are not is perhaps due their cultural conditioning in the West.
[/QUOTE]
I'd say there are many Thai women who want and insist on the separation, they don't want to be grouped with the P4P women for obvious reasons. Most westerners (men) probably don't want the separation for even more obvious reasons.

[QUOTE=Run Mann]There is a separation but you may not be looking at the country conceptually which is why you made the statement above. Hookers always stand out in any society, they act different, they look different and their make up change after being involved in the life for any prolong period and their views and thinking change. Of course there are exceptions and this issue has been discussed here many times but many posters who will tell you there are vast contrasts between Thai hookers and regular Thai women and in my experience I have also found this to be true but then again it would be true in any society or country.[/QUOTE]

Of course these women are 'in character' when they are in their working environments, and most of them will stand out at least a little even when they are going about their non-work-related daily business in places like Bangkok and Patts. But put them back in their home towns in the provinces and it's a very different story. So much money, for several generations, has entered these regions from Luk/Nid/Noy's daughter going working away from home, the lines have become very blurred. The locals tend to be quite blase about it and generally don't care.

[QUOTE=Run Mann]You are making this claim based on what?[/QUOTE]

I've visited many times and staid in a rice-farming village in Isaan. And through my Thai lady there I got to meet many other Thai women. That's how I know about their pre-marital hooking and their marriages afterwards.

Perhaps you have some difficulty understanding the lack of separation between hookers and non-hookers in Thailand because you focus too much on the women and forget the men's role in it all.

As I said earlier, a single attractive Thai woman out and about on her own is considered fair game by Thai men. Which means that they make lewd suggestions to her at every opportunity, when the social circumstances allow for it. And they don't just ask her to fuck for nothing, the way some westerners do. They offer her some favor or money.

Sooner or later, the attractive lady is going to see something in the store that she wants to buy but doesn't have the money for it. Sooner or later she might need some favor from a man. And sooner or later she will happen to be a little in the mood for sex due to her hormonal changes.

And unlike in the West, this lady doesn't need to paint herself up, dress in outrageously revealing clothing, and stand on the street corner to attract the men. She already knows many men who have an outstanding order for sex with her. These men keep reminding her about it all the time. All she needs to do is say 'yes' to one of them. The deed will be done without much trouble for her. And she will get what she wants.

In the West, it's considered a great insult to mistake an ordinary woman for a hooker. And most western men are extremely careful not to make such mistakes. That's why it's so difficult and unusual for western women to do P4P. Western women don't get many offers from men, unless these women really advertise themselves as hookers to everyone. And not many western women are willing to do that and spoil their reputation as a result.

But in Thailand, it's all a matter of putting up a good appearance. If the horny Thai man discreetly offers P4P to a lady he likes. Then there is no insult to her. An insult occurs only when the man is so indiscreet about it that their interaction becomes too obvious and unambiguous for others. The lady looses her face as a result. And that's why she feels insulted.

It's the behavior of men that makes all the difference between Thailand and the West. Western men clearly and rigidly separate women into hookers and non-hookers in their minds and in their behavior. But Thai men tend to see all unatached women as potential P4P ladies. And since men are usually dominant in male-female relationships. It's the men who create their P4P reality both in the West and in Thailand.

[QUOTE=Dan7373] ... As I said earlier, a single attractive Thai woman out and about on her own is considered fair game by Thai men. Which means that they make lewd suggestions to her at every opportunity, when the social circumstances allow for it. And they don't just ask her to fuck for nothing, the way some westerners do. They offer her some favor or money...

...But in Thailand, it's all a matter of putting up a good appearance. If the horny Thai man discreetly offers P4P to a lady he likes. Then there is no insult to her. An insult occurs only when the man is so indiscreet about it that their interaction becomes too obvious and unambiguous for others. The lady looses her face as a result. And that's why she feels insulted.
.[/QUOTE]
Very interesting! Does this apply to westerners too?

Do you mean that older farangs like me can whisper lewd suggestions into the ears of pretty young Thai waitresses or shop girls, including promises of money, and they will not feel insulted as long as the propositions are discrete?

[QUOTE=Dan7373]I've visited many times and staid in a rice-farming village in Isaan. And through my Thai lady there I got to meet many other Thai women. That's how I know about their pre-marital hooking and their marriages afterwards.[/QUOTE]

All this knowledge based on many VISITS and staying in an Isaan farming village. My, my, you have an incredilbe incite into the greater Thai female population, don't you?

Dan, you've only run with one limited sector of the female population in one locale and as an outsider (no matter how many times you've been here).

Making blanket statements about Thai women with your incredibly narrow-focused experience is, to say the least inaccurate and incredibly biased.

Just as Isaan women (not Thai, by the way) are a particular breed and quite apart from women in other areas of the country, (Lanna women in the north, different from central plains Thai women, different from southern Thai-Chinese/Thai-Malay women, different from Bangkok Thai-Chinese women, different from Indian-Thai women) so too are Isaan men different from Thai men elsewhere. Then, there's also the differences in Isaan itself between poor rice farmers and urban and middle-class Isaan people, between women from the different provinces and between Isaan-Lao and Isaan-Khmer.

It's obvious the type of people with whom you've had experience are poor and from the lower classes. Isaan men from that strata are generally pretty much scum. Maybe they can whisper lewd suggestions into the ear of some poor and needy Isaan farm-girl and get a response and therefore think that all Isaan women are fair game. But, I can tell you that if they try it with an Isaan woman who doesn't need their money, or a Thai girl from somewhere else, or from a higher social strata, they're going to get shut down so fast, it'll make their heads spin.

Before you set yourself up as some expert on Thai women and Thai men, I suggest you widen your area of experience and actually try to discover how diverse this country and it's women (and men) are.

And, BTW. I've lived here going on 12 years, have dated women from just about every corner of the country, from every strata of society and I'm still discovering new things all the time about the country and it's people.

[QUOTE=Daddy07]Very interesting! Does this apply to westerners too?

Do you mean that older farangs like me can whisper lewd suggestions into the ears of pretty young Thai waitresses or shop girls, including promises of money, and they will not feel insulted as long as the propositions are discrete?[/QUOTE]

I think that's what he meant. Believe me, waitresses and shop girls are hit on times and times again by Westerners, I see it all the time, Old men constantly flirting with the Thai girls. I am sure they do it for a reason: it works.

[QUOTE=NicFrenchy]I think that's what he meant. Believe me, waitresses and shop girls are hit on times and times again by Westerners, I see it all the time, Old men constantly flirting with the Thai girls. I am sure they do it for a reason: it works.[/QUOTE]

Yes. Nic. But, these girl are probably all in need of money/patronage. A good friend of mine met his wife at Robinson's on Silom. She was working on the make-up counter, he spotted her, chatted her up and the rest is history. Another friend dated one of the waitresses at Robin Hood for awhile. One of my long term GFs here (4 years) was a waitress at a famous seafood restuarant on Rachada. In ever case, financial consideration played a part.

Move up a notch or two on the social ladder, even if still dealing with those in the service industry or trade and you'll get a very different response. My GF works at a top 5 star hotel in BKK. She tells me that she and her staff are constantly hit on by Farang. But, there's absolutely no interest at all. The thing she finds the most curious is that the Farang, when rejected seemed genuinely surprised and shocked, as if it's a foregone conclusion that every TG would want to be with them.

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]All this knoweldge based on many VISITS and staying in an Isaan farming village. My, my, you have an incredilbe incite into the greater Thai female population, don't you?

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]Dan, you've only run with one limited sector of the female population in one locale and as an outsider (no matter how many times you've been here).

Making blanket statements about Thai women with your incredibly narrow-focused experience is, to say the least inaccurate and incredibly biased.

Just as Isaan women (not Thai, by the way) are a particular breed and quite apart from women in other areas of the country, (Lanna women in the north, different from central plains Thai women, different from southern Thai-Chinese/Thai-Malay women, different from Bangkok Thai-Chinese women, different from Indian-Thai women) so too are Isaan men different from Thai men elsewhere. Then, there's also the differences in Isaan itself between poor rice farmers and urban and middle-class Isaan people, between women from the different provinces and between Isaan-Lao and Isaan-Khmer.[/QUOTE]
What an extraordinary post! OTH finally acknowledges that Thailand is not a country populated by pre-programmed robots that all fit into identikit images. Welcome to the real world OTH. It's technicolor, not black and white.

[QUOTE=Terry Terrier]What an extraordinary post! OTH finally acknowledges that Thailand is not a country populated by pre-programmed robots that all fit into identikit images. Welcome to the real world OTH. It's technicolor, not black and white.[/QUOTE]

LOL. That in itself is a somewhat extreme, B&W (and not at all accurate) assessment of me and past views. But, hey. It's your established job to be diametrically opposed to me. That's our understanding, I believe. ;)

[QUOTE=Dan7373].

And sooner or later she will happen to be a little in the mood for sex due to her hormonal changes. [/QUOTE]
You may be tying to be more provocative than informative with statements like this but have you ever tried the technique you mentioned and did it worked for you or is it that only Thai men can accomplish the feat of treating women like hookers?

[QUOTE=Run Mann]You may be tying to be more provocative than informative with statements like this but have you ever tried the technique you mentioned and did it worked for you or is it that only Thai men can accomplish the feat of treating women like hookers?[/QUOTE]

On the Pattaya thread, we have Bill Miami talking about treating obvious hookers with respect and reaping the rewards for essentially treating them like non-P4P. Yet, here we have Dan talking about the opposite: treating mostly non-P4P women like HOs and them responding favourably because of hormones.

Thai women are no different than women anywhere. Discretion aside (i.e. whispering lewd suggestions quietly in their ears), Thai women, wherever they are in the country are NOT going to appreciate being spoken to in this way. Yes. Some might respond positively, out of necessity. But, I doubt deep down that they feel happy about it.

One thing I particulary dislike are these guys who have only ever dated/married poor Isaan farm girls and maybe even lived in an Isaan village and somehow now think they are experts on Thailand, Thai culture and Thai people. If they know anything, they only know something about poor Isaan farm girls and life in a poor Isaan farm village. That's all.

I am constantly fine-tuning and adjusting my opinions of Thais, their culture and their lives based on always learning something new, experiencing something new and realizing that understanding Thai or any culture is an ongoing process. Personally, I've often been accused on here of contradicting myself because at various times, I've expressed dissimilar views on the exact same topic. That's because I've probably learned something new that caused me to re-evaluate my opinion. There are no absolutes and declarative statements, such as we've seen from Dan7373 are at the very least misleading and at the extreme completely wrong.

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand])

And, BTW. I've lived here going on 12 years, have dated women from just about every corner of the country, from every strata of society and I'm still discovering new things all the time about the country and it's people.[/QUOTE]

Ain't this the truth? Just about the time I think I have the Thais figured out they take a 180 degree turn. As a Farang you can only begin to scratch the surface and there are many, many layers beneath.

[quote=old thai hand]on the pattaya thread, we have bill miami talking about treating obvious hookers with respect and reaping the rewards for essentially treating them like non-p4p. yet, here we have dan talking about the opposite: treating mostly non-p4p women like hos and them responding favourably because of hormones.

thai women are no different than women anywhere. discretion aside (i.e. whispering lewd suggestions quietly in their ears), thai women, wherever they are in the country are not going to appreciate being spoken to in this way. yes. some might respond positively, out of necessity. but, i doubt deep down that they feel happy about it.

one thing i particulary dislike are these guys who have only ever dated/married poor isaan farm girls and maybe even lived in an isaan village and somehow now think they are experts on thailand, thai culture and thai people. if they know anything, they only know something about poor isaan farm girls and life in a poor isaan farm village. that's all.

i am constantly fine-tuning and adjusting my opinions of thais, their culture and their lives based on always learning something new, experiencing something new and realizing that understanding thai or any culture is an ongoing process. personally, i've often been accused on here of contradicting myself because at various times, i've expressed dissimilar views on the exact same topic. that's because i've probably learned something new that caused me to re-evaluate my opinion. there are no absolutes and declarative statements, such as we've seen from dan7373 are at the very least misleading and at the extreme completely wrong.[/quote]

**the faint noise of oth's hypocricy and bigotry scraping against the forum walls again**

Meatman,

You are dead wrong! For over 20 years I have been getting deepthroated by SE Asian women, especially in China. A former mistress of a rich chinese diplomat in Hong Kong was casted off because she was too old. Lucky me I came to meet her in Hong Kong and became friends, she visited my hometown and stayed at my house and became my girlfriend for a few months. She had her motives and I had mines, and that was to screw and suck her 36's to death but she gave me a surprise of my life. One of the best 3 f--ks of my life and she deepthroated as there was no tomorrow, slowly all the way down to the end!

In Thailand, just the other day a regular lady I see on soi 6, because one of the best slow deepthroated BBBJ to your nuts and back up to the head service you can get for the money!

Meatman, in all due respect you just haven't found it yet! but don't give up hope!

LBM,

[QUOTE=Retired Army]Ain't this the truth? Just about the time I think I have the Thais figured out they take a 180 degree turn. As a Farang you can only begin to scratch the surface and there are many, many layers beneath.[/QUOTE]

Which is why you expats and expat-types should show a bit more humility on this forum and stop behaving like such know-it-alls.

[QUOTE=Terry Terrier]Which is why you expats and expat-types should show a bit more humility on this forum and stop behaving like such know-it-alls.[/QUOTE]

Well, we certainly don't know everything; but, we do know more than most visitors to Thailand. Notice I said most. Every now an then a real "expert" shows up and based on his five days in Pattaya (or some rice picking village near Udorn) now knows everything there is to know about Thailand and Thai women. I am married to a Thai and just about the time I think I have her figured out, she throws a curve ball at me that leaves me scratching my head wondering what just happend. Never a dull moment with the little lady.

[quote=terry terrier]**the faint noise of oth's hypocricy and bigotry scraping against the forum walls again**[/quote]

oh come on! hardly.

[QUOTE=Daddy07]Very interesting! Does this apply to westerners too?

Do you mean that older farangs like me can whisper lewd suggestions into the ears of pretty young Thai waitresses or shop girls, including promises of money, and they will not feel insulted as long as the propositions are discrete?[/QUOTE]

In theory, yes this applies to westerners too. But in practice it's not so easy to do.

One thing is the language barrier. It's hard to whisper discreetly, when the lady has some difficulty understanding you. You'd have to be pretty forward and explicit about it in order to avoid confusion. And that may embarrass the girl.

Another thing. This works well only with unattached ladies who don't have a boyfriend or a husband. Which means that you have to get to know the lady first and find out about her relationship status. Whispering into the ears of women who already have men is not going to get you anywhere in most cases. Although in Thailand, even some married women do some hooking on the side.

A third thing. Not every unattached lady is equally experienced. Some ladies need more persuasion than others. Which means that you may succeed only when you are persistent with the lady on several occasions and don't give up easily.

And finally. Whispering to the unattached lady is not always the best way to persuade her. Giving the lady excessively large tips or buying her expensive gifts will make her feel indebted to you, if she accepts these from you. It's harder for the lady to say 'no', when you pay her in advance and hold out the promise of paying her more.

[QUOTE=Run Mann]You may be tying to be more provocative than informative with statements like this but have you ever tried the technique you mentioned and did it worked for you or is it that only Thai men can accomplish the feat of treating women like hookers?[/QUOTE]

I've spent some time away from tourist places, alone among Thais. And I've had more than enough opportunities to observe and ask questions about the behaviour of Thai people around me. My Thai lady, who was from that community, was the one who explained to me what was going on.

I don't think foreigners in Thailand can copy the local culture and behave just the locals do. It's not that easy. Foreigners don't know enough of the local ways to be subtle and discreet. And that which works for Thai men is not going to work for foreigners.

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]....
I am constantly fine-tuning and adjusting my opinions of Thais, their culture and their lives based on always learning something new, experiencing something new and realizing that understanding Thai or any culture is an ongoing process....[/QUOTE]

No matter how much you try, your view of Thai life is always going to be through the lens and the filter of your own culture. If you really want to know what's going on. Then ask the local people who trust you and whom you trust. They are a part of what's going on. And they know better than anyone else why they behave the way they do.

Ask the local people is what I have done. And that's why my understanding of what's going on in Thailand is so different from yours.

[QUOTE=Dan7373]Foreigners don't know enough of the local ways to be subtle and discreet. And that which works for Thai men is not going to work for foreigners.[/QUOTE]


If nothing else I got a good chuckle out of your last few post because while I am definitely not convinced with your presentation, it was entertaining. Perhaps you can write a book on how to conquer Thai women but be sure to run for the hills because someone is bound to hurt you for being a purveyor of spurious logic.

[QUOTE=Dan7373]I don't think foreigners in Thailand can copy the local culture and behave just the locals do. It's not that easy. Foreigners don't know enough of the local ways to be subtle and discreet. And that which works for Thai men is not going to work for foreigners.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, but being sensitive and respectable of Thais and Thai culture works wonders.

[QUOTE=Run Mann]If nothing else I got a good chuckle out of your last few post because while I am definitely not convinced with your presentation, it was entertaining. Perhaps you can write a book on how to conquer Thai women but be sure to run for the hills because someone is bound to hurt you for being a purveyor of spurious logic.[/QUOTE]

Such a book would be best written by a Thai man who has had a lot of relevant experiences.

I was curious enough to find out what was going on from the local people. But the knowledge I've gained didn't make me good at seducing the women.

It's just like watching someone ride a motorbike and knowing how people do it will not make you a good motorbike rider. And such abstract knowledge will not qualify you to write an instructional book about it.

[QUOTE=Dan7373]Ask the local people is what I have done. And that's why my understanding of what's going on in Thailand is so different from yours.[/QUOTE]

Different from mine? Absolutely! Because you don't even live here! By your own admission you've only spent some time with the locals - but trust me, always as an outsider and always as a visitor. I live with my Thai/Isaan GF 24/7. I know her family and friends. I work with and interact with Thais and have done so for almost 12 years. For the first 2 1/2 years here I lived in a Thai-only working-class/middle-class community in Bangkok which was actually quite diverse as it was made up of not only Buddhists but Muslims. After that, I lived in a Thai-Chinese neighbourhood in Hua Hin for 4 years, then back among Thais in Bangkok, after that. I deal with Thais close-up and personal every day. And, yet, I'm only partially privy to the deep, inner workings of Thai people.

I'm curious. When you gathered all your in-depth information from the locals in order to form your declarative views, did you do it in English, Thai, or Isaan? If you don't speak the lingo, you never can begin to know much about what people are actually thinking.

I'm sticking to my opinion that you have a very narrow view of a very small part of Thailand and are not really in a position to comment beyond that.

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand].... I deal with Thais close-up and personal every day. And, yet, I'm only partially privy to the deep, inner workings of Thai people....[/QUOTE]

Most Thai people try to put on a good appearance. And about private things like sex and P4P ladies in their community they don't talk much even with each other. And I'm not surprised that you have yet much to find out about what's going on there despite living in the community for 12 years.

The reason why I've been able to find out so much more about P4P activity in the community where I've visited and stayed many times is because I had a P4P lady as my confidant and guide. She worked as a P4P lady for a number of years. She knew many other P4P ladies in the area where we stayed. And she didn't mind sharing her knowledge of her community with me. Because she knew of my good attitude towards P4P. I told her a number of times that it takes two to have P4P sex. And I wasn't any better or worse than was she or any of her P4P lady friends.

Also, due to my poor knowledge of Thai language. She knew that her secrets were safe with me. I couldn't tell anyone there even if I wanted to because very few people there could speak English.

Perhaps even some Thai people are not fully aware of what's going on in their community in terms of P4P sex. After all, they are discreet and circumspect about it. Which means that people often find out about it only on the need to know basis.

The young unattached ladies probably know about it because of the lewd suggestions and the offers they get from the horny men. And the horny men of course know about it too. Because they are the ones who keep this whole P4P thing going. But everybody else may be just as ignorant about it as you are.

But just because something is hidden in the community doesn't mean that it isn't real, or that it doesn't exist.

[QUOTE=Dan7373] And I'm not surprised that you have yet much to find out about what's going on there despite living in the community for 12 years.

The reason why I've been able to find out so much more about P4P activity in the community where I've visited and stayed many times is because I had a P4P lady as my confidant and guide.

Also, due to my poor knowledge of Thai language. She knew that her secrets were safe with me. I couldn't tell anyone there even if I wanted to because very few people there could speak English.

Perhaps even some Thai people are not fully aware of what's going on in their community in terms of P4P sex.

But just because something is hidden in the community doesn't mean that it isn't real, or that it doesn't exist.[/QUOTE]


OTH, you must now bow to the master. Dan7373 has cracked the code on Thailand and Thai women and society. And, all this while on vacation in some rice picking village in Issan with a P4P girl. My hats off to him, and OTH... you might as well hang it up buddy, your days are numbered. You are about to be out classed by a real Thai expert.

I am humbled by Dan's posts. Being married to a Thai myself, and having traveled all over Thailand with her and visiting her friends and family, I still haven't a clue about what really goes on in Thailand and have just accepted that's the way it is and is always going to be.

I deal with Thais close-up and personal every day. And, yet, I'm only partially privy to the deep, inner workings of Thai people.

I'm curious. When you gathered all your in-depth information from the locals in order to form your declarative views, did you do it in English, Thai, or Isaan? If you don't speak the lingo, you never can begin to know much about what people are actually thinking.

I'm sticking to my opinion that you have a very narrow view of a very small part of Thailand and are not really in a position to comment beyond that.[/QUOTE]I would add the it is very rare to find a lad that can drop his own and absorb the new correctly. Doesen't happen. So what OTH says is not only correct, but makes sense in my practical application. On ?, I say, without language and help with context, real life usage/ Thai usage; it is almost not possible to integrate - relate is the best that I can see possible.

Best Regards,

Neufie

[QUOTE=Retired Army]OTH, you must now bow to the master. Dan7373 has cracked the code on Thailand and Thai women and society. And, all this while on vacation in some rice picking village in Issan with a P4P girl. My hats off to him, and OTH... you might as well hang it up buddy, your days are numbered. You are about to be out classed by a real Thai expert.

I am humbled by Dan's posts. Being married to a Thai myself, and having traveled all over Thailand with her and visiting her friends and family, I still haven't a clue about what really goes on in Thailand and have just accepted that's the way it is and is always going to be.[/QUOTE]

Perhaps there are many different realities in Thailand. And you get to experience only some of them, depending on your social status and connections with the local people.

Just because your experiences have been different from mine doesn't necessarily mean that one of us must be lying. Both of us are probably right. And the reason for the difference is that we've experienced different parts and different aspects of the same Thai society.

[QUOTE=Dan7373]Perhaps there are many different realities in Thailand. And you get to experience only some of them, depending on your social status and connections with the local people.

Just because your experiences have been different from mine doesn't necessarily mean that one of us must be lying. Both of us are probably right. And the reason for the difference is that we've experienced different parts and different aspects of the same Thai society.[/QUOTE]

No one ever accused you of lying, just not having a clue what you are talking about. As a Farang, even if you came to Thailand the day after you were born and live here your entire life, you still aren't going to know Thailand the same as a Thai native. What I am saying is that you might think you know Thailand, Thai women and culture, but you don't, because you can't. A perfect example is the Indian community. Some of then have lived here for generations and they aren't included or considered Thai. I first came to Thailand in 1973 and have live here for a total of seven years since that time. I am married to a Thai and I don't know squat about Thais. Just when I think I do, I am proven wrong.

So everyone is agreed, then. We only know what we know.

[QUOTE=Retired Army]No one ever accused you of lying, just not having a clue what you are talking about. As a Farang, even if you came to Thailand the day after you were born and live here your entire life, you still aren't going to know Thailand the same as a Thai native....[/QUOTE]

Perhaps you have forgotten that I don't claim to have more or better experience of Thai society than other people in this forum have.

I simply trust the information and the explanations my P4P lady gave me about her community where she has lived most of her life. And I trust her expertise in this matter a lot more than I trust yours or that of other farangs. Because she is from Thailand. And you are not. And she knows a lot about the P4P scene in Thailand from her own life experiences and from the friends she keeps.

I don't want to get personal about this. But it sounds to me like you claim to be a better expert on Thai sociey than someone who was born there and who intimately knows her community. Which is ludicrous.

In Thailand, like everywhere else, one may appear preternaturally knowledgable by simply assuming the worst about people.

[QUOTE=Dan7373]Perhaps you have forgotten that I don't claim to have more or better experience of Thai society than other people in this forum have.

I simply trust the information and the explanations my P4P lady gave me about her community where she has lived most of her life. And I trust her expertise in this matter a lot more than I trust yours or that of other farangs. Because she is from Thailand. And you are not. And she knows a lot about the P4P scene in Thailand from her own life experiences and from the friends she keeps.

I don't want to get personal about this. But it sounds to me like you claim to be a better expert on Thai sociey than someone who was born there and who intimately knows her community. Which is ludicrous.[/QUOTE]

There is no way I could know more about Thai culture than a Thai. What you know is what she tells you. But, to be more correct, you know what she wants you to know. And that may, or may not, be the truth. A lot of P4P girls have a warped sense of reality.

[QUOTE=Opebo]In Thailand, like everywhere else, one may appear preternaturally knowledgable by simply assuming the worst about people.[/QUOTE]

I'm not sure what you mean by 'assuming the worst about people'. Sure, there is a lot of P4P going on in Thailand. But who is to say that this is bad?

If the Thai people are satisfied to live the way they do. Then who are we to judge their way of life?

The plentiful availability of P4P ladies in Thailand is actually what attracted me to Thailand in the first place. For me this is the best Thailand has to offer.

[QUOTE=Dan7373]
The plentiful availability of P4P ladies in Thailand is actually what attracted me to Thailand in the first place. For me this is the best Thailand has to offer.[/QUOTE]


Then I truly feel sorry for you. Thailand has so much to offer and P4P is just a small part. And unfortunately, not the best part of Thailand or Thai society.

i just got back home from a trip to the los and had a hell of a time. i've been quite a few times now and dated a thai university grad for a few years that i met in the states and considered marrying. just this past week while sitting in the biergarten on soi 7 at one of the side tables and having a bite to eat i caught a look at this beautiful young lady sitting across the bar. most of the girls will look at you and smile and nod their head or make some flirting gesture, but this one just looked away and then back again in a little bit. after i finished eating i walked over and talked to her and she said she thought i was looking at another lady. we went upstairs and played pool for a little bit and then over to gullivers for a few games. i'm terrible at the game, but she was pretty good. when it was time to say goodbye we talked about going back together. i liked the way she carried herself and sense of humor so i took her back. i see some real assholes dealing with women in these places and i believe in showing them respect until they give me reason not to. we're all *****s in our own way. some girls are gfe and some are just about getting down to business. we hung around and talked for a little while before and after and she left. great experience i thought and i'm off to samui for a week. next night i'm in bangkok i see her at absolute bar while listening to some chick singing like tina turner. she's with a farang and he's dancing all over her. she sees me and a little while later comes over to talk to me. we head upstairs and she kills me at pool again and we end up at the hotel. all night. great experience and she gives me her number. she tells me she's happy i chose her again instead of taking another lady. we talk about meeting the next evening for a movie so she shows up at my hotel at 6pm as planned (shocking) and we're off to ekkamai to eat at some place where you order all sorts of things and cook them on the table as a soup. we're joking around and she's being really sweet. doing things like filling my soup bowl first, pouring water, and showing me how the whole restaurant thing works which you don't find in the states generally. old world feminity. it isn't that i want someone to serve me, but i found a certain grace and politeness in her actions as i do in opening the door for a woman, giving her my coat, or helping her out of a vehicle. even at the hotel she would fold my clothes and offered to take them home and wash them for me because she had a place she could wash them cheap though i declined the offer. we went to the movies and were holding hands. she gives me the thai kiss from time to time. after finding out the newest indiana jones wasn't that great we head back to my hotel. all night. i put money under her purse for when she is ready to leave the next morning she says i don't have to give her money and gives it back to me. i put it in her purse when she's not looking and she's on her way. next evening i don't see her at the biergarten so i give her a call to say hello. she's with her sister in the room and says she doesn't go to the biergarten every day. the following evening i give her a call because she's not there again and we meet up. she says she didn't want to interrupt me the night before because she thought i might want to have a different lady so she didn't want ask to meet me. she gives me the i'm a thai lady and we do not ask the man to do this or that. we spend the next few days together and i really enjoy her company. she's 28, but not jaded like she's been a bar girl since she was 18. her english is pretty good, but not great and not the same bar girl english you find so much of. i speak a little thai so we worked it out. said she used to work in some big hotel in bangkok. no children. never married. says she just started coming to the bar a few weeks prior to meeting me and stays with her sister who is married to an american. she says she's not a bar girl. says she's going to open a store in petchabun and is making money for it. she didn't talk to any of the other girls at the bar because she said she didn't know anyone there. she wasn't really modest which i was a little confused by. my old girlfriend would get naked in the sack, but would cover up after a shower and when changing or laying around. this girl would [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord134][CodeWord134][/url] and clean up with me in the same room while i was taking a shower like we were married or something. she walked around naked like it was just a natural thing to do. she was very clean and dressed modestly. she didn't kiss on the mouth, didn't do oral which i didn't press, and wasn't mechanical about sex. i kind of feel like a dumbass writing this. she's a bar girl right? i'm a bit cynical from knowing some other ladies. thing is, i really hated leaving and wished i could have spent more time with her. i can't tell about this one, but i would like to see her again.

[QUOTE=Dan7373]I'm not sure what you mean by 'assuming the worst about people'. Sure, there is a lot of P4P going on in Thailand. But who is to say that this is bad?

The plentiful availability of P4P ladies in Thailand is actually what attracted me to Thailand in the first place. For me this is the best Thailand has to offer.[/QUOTE]

Oh no, don't get me wrong. I did not mean to imply there is anything 'bad' about P4P. I also agree it is the best Thailand has to offer, by far. Certainly it is the only reason I came here, other than the cheapness.

I only meant that in general assuming the worst about people anywhere in the world is the most accurate.

[quote=aslan]....this girl would [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord134][CodeWord134][/url] and clean up with me in the same room while i was taking a shower like we were married or something. she walked around naked like it was just a natural thing to do. she was very clean and dressed modestly. she didn't kiss on the mouth, didn't do oral which i didn't press, and wasn't mechanical about sex. i kind of feel like a dumbass writing this. she's a bar girl right? i'm a bit cynical from knowing some other ladies. thing is, i really hated leaving and wished i could have spent more time with her. i can't tell about this one, but i would like to see her again.[/quote]
well she may not have technically been a bar girl previously but she does seem a bit forward. could have previously worked in massage or done occassional free-lance work, or anything that gets her used to be being seen naked. its quite possible that she stretches the truth.

you can't really judge anyone by what they say. how they act gives more clues.

[QUOTE=Dan7373]Most Thai people try to put on a good appearance. And about private things like sex and P4P ladies in their community they don't talk much even with each other. And I'm not surprised that you have yet much to find out about what's going on there despite living in the community for 12 years.[/QUOTE]

Well, this is where you're wrong. I listen to what the Thais are saying, not what they tell me (in English). By your own admission, you only know P4P, a decidedly narrow segment of the culture.

[QUOTE=Dan7373]The reason why I've been able to find out so much more about P4P activity in the community where I've visited and stayed many times is because I had a P4P lady as my confidant and guide.[/QUOTE]

OK. So, you're an expert on P4P activity in your community. This is atypical knowledge, which give little insight into anything but P4P.

[QUOTE=Dan7373]Also, due to my poor knowledge of Thai language.[/QUOTE]

This says it all. BTW, it's very unlikely that the people around you in your P4P girl's community are speaking Thai. They're probably speaking Isaan, unless you're in Buriram or Surin, in which case they may be speaking Khmer.


[QUOTE=Dan7373]The young unattached ladies probably know about it because of the lewd suggestions and the offers they get from the horny men. And the horny men of course know about it too. Because they are the ones who keep this whole P4P thing going. But everybody else may be just as ignorant about it as you are.[/QUOTE]

What about the majority of women who are not in P4P, in any way? They get propositioned all the time by low-life Thai lizards and are not pre-disposed to fall for it because they know these guys are usually a dead-end.

You also said in one of your earlier posts something to the effect that a Farang couldn't possibly sweet-talk a TG like a Thai man could. This is rubbish. If you know the lingo and more importantly the nuances of tone and pronounciation, it's quite easy to actually get further with them because at least most Farang represent possibilities to a lot of both P4P and certain types of non-P4P TGs.

I actually "sweet-talked" an Isaan girl last night and she went all giggly and shy on me and thought I was so cute for what I said. It wasn't really the words, so much, but the way they were said and the fact that it was a 'Bakseeda' บักสีดา (Farang) speaking Isaan. TGs love it when a Farang speaks their lingo.

Here's a simple phrase for you to try out.

Jao seu ee-nyang ja. Jao pen na hak ih-lee der. เจ้าซื่อหยัง เจ้าเป็นน่าฮักอิหลีเด้อ

Ask your P4P girl to translate it for you.

I have been reading the last few posts, and I thought that I would add a few comments to the discussion.

Firstly, about the statements that there is plenty of P4P in Thailand. This is partly true, but there is far more in the US, and Australia and other western countries. There are more prostitutes per head of population in Australia than in any asian country. You can get any kind of sex, any time, men, women, boys, girls. Prostitution is openly advertised in the local newspapers, brothels are legal. So it is important to get the facts right to put things into correct perspective.

Secondly, I have a Thai gf who had never been into a bar before I took her. She had very little sex with her husband before she divorced. Since we have been together, she has blossomed, knows that there are no limits on what she can do, loves to be naked, loves sex, now that she has found that she can get so much pleasure and satisfaction from sex. In public, she is still shy, and I respect her for that.

I do not believe that all Thai women just want money and the visa. My gf certainly has never asked for either. Except that I have asked her to take a massage course, and I have paid for it, likewise, I am funding her through her English classes. She has a regular job, is looking at setting up a business, and her family is pretty well off middle classs.

Gangles

[quote=aslan]i just got back home from a trip to the los and had a hell of a time. i've been quite a few times now and dated a thai university grad for a few years that i met in the states and considered marrying. just this past week while sitting in the biergarten on soi 7 at one of the side tables and having a bite to eat i caught a look at this beautiful young lady sitting across the bar. most of the girls will look at you and smile and nod their head or make some flirting gesture, but this one just looked away and then back again in a little bit. after i finished eating i walked over and talked to her and she said she thought i was looking at another lady. we went upstairs and played pool for a little bit and then over to gullivers for a few games. i'm terrible at the game, but she was pretty good. when it was time to say goodbye we talked about going back together. i liked the way she carried herself and sense of humor so i took her back. i see some real assholes dealing with women in these places and i believe in showing them respect until they give me reason not to. we're all *****s in our own way. some girls are gfe and some are just about getting down to business. we hung around and talked for a little while before and after and she left. great experience i thought and i'm off to samui for a week. next night i'm in bangkok i see her at absolute bar while listening to some chick singing like tina turner. she's with a farang and he's dancing all over her. she sees me and a little while later comes over to talk to me. we head upstairs and she kills me at pool again and we end up at the hotel. all night. great experience and she gives me her number. she tells me she's happy i chose her again instead of taking another lady. we talk about meeting the next evening for a movie so she shows up at my hotel at 6pm as planned (shocking) and we're off to ekkamai to eat at some place where you order all sorts of things and cook them on the table as a soup. we're joking around and she's being really sweet. doing things like filling my soup bowl first, pouring water, and showing me how the whole restaurant thing works which you don't find in the states generally. old world feminity. it isn't that i want someone to serve me, but i found a certain grace and politeness in her actions as i do in opening the door for a woman, giving her my coat, or helping her out of a vehicle. even at the hotel she would fold my clothes and offered to take them home and wash them for me because she had a place she could wash them cheap though i declined the offer. we went to the movies and were holding hands. she gives me the thai kiss from time to time. after finding out the newest indiana jones wasn't that great we head back to my hotel. all night. i put money under her purse for when she is ready to leave the next morning she says i don't have to give her money and gives it back to me. i put it in her purse when she's not looking and she's on her way. next evening i don't see her at the biergarten so i give her a call to say hello. she's with her sister in the room and says she doesn't go to the biergarten every day. the following evening i give her a call because she's not there again and we meet up. she says she didn't want to interrupt me the night before because she thought i might want to have a different lady so she didn't want ask to meet me. she gives me the i'm a thai lady and we do not ask the man to do this or that. we spend the next few days together and i really enjoy her company. she's 28, but not jaded like she's been a bar girl since she was 18. her english is pretty good, but not great and not the same bar girl english you find so much of. i speak a little thai so we worked it out. said she used to work in some big hotel in bangkok. no children. never married. says she just started coming to the bar a few weeks prior to meeting me and stays with her sister who is married to an american. she says she's not a bar girl. says she's going to open a store in petchabun and is making money for it. she didn't talk to any of the other girls at the bar because she said she didn't know anyone there. she wasn't really modest which i was a little confused by. my old girlfriend would get naked in the sack, but would cover up after a shower and when changing or laying around. this girl would [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord134][CodeWord134][/url] and clean up with me in the same room while i was taking a shower like we were married or something. she walked around naked like it was just a natural thing to do. she was very clean and dressed modestly. she didn't kiss on the mouth, didn't do oral which i didn't press, and wasn't mechanical about sex. i kind of feel like a dumbass writing this. she's a bar girl right? i'm a bit cynical from knowing some other ladies. thing is, i really hated leaving and wished i could have spent more time with her. i can't tell about this one, but i would like to see her again.[/quote]

no arguement here. you is what you is... at least you are smart enough to know it.

[QUOTE=Mick Licker]Well she may not have technically been a bar girl previously but she does seem a bit forward. Could have previously worked in massage or done occassional free-lance work, or anything that gets her used to be being seen naked. Its quite possible that she stretches the truth.

You can't really judge anyone by what they say. How they act gives more clues.[/QUOTE]She's 28 and did mention that she had a boyfriend before. I'm sure has been seen naked a few times before me. I wouldn't expect her to be a virgin, but I really don't believe she's been in the bar business long from the way she acted. I'm in my mid 30's, am in great shape, and have a pretty good sense of humor. If she wasn't into it she gave me the greatest gf experience ever without he expectation of getting paid. Since my last post she sent me an email in Thai that said she didn't want me to give her money because she didn't want me to see her as a bargirl and that she appreciated the time we spent together, and the things I did for her.

I don't usually go out looking for a girl and am particular about taking someone back to the room with me for a number of reasons. Many times I will go to the Biergarten just to chat and be around other farang. I also refuse to believe that bar girls are all bad people only out to cheat you. I've met girls that say they don't go with some farang they've built a rapport with because it ruins their friendship. They have reason for doing what they do. I feel like a wh*** working myself most of the time. I just use my brain instead of my dick to work.

Anyone have experiences with really cool girls that work in a bar?

[QUOTE=Aslan]Anyone have experiences with really cool girls that work in a bar?[/QUOTE]

Of course we do, probably most of us who ever go to LOS end up with numbers of girls we get to know more then just a quick screw. But many of those girls have many guys like us that they "get to know" on a more personal level. I would estimate majority of us have found a few "keepers" out there that we frequent back to often. Those of us that travel to LOS a lot or live there. And many of us have found TGF's. Some of who are ex P4P.

Building a relationship / friendship is fine and it makes your time more enjoyable. But to make a real long term relationship work is hard. Can you take that she screwed for money? Can you trust her to not screw any more? Are you willing to move to Thai and / or support her financially? TRUST is the big issue here and you have to take into account cultural differences. You probably don't know much about Thai culture and she probably doesn't know much about your culture. I would say that TRUST is the biggest obstacle that you will face if you want a relationship. Many long term LOS guys still don't understand Thai Women and the Culture and you might think one thing when she is thinking another thing.

Just be aware... many girls are experts at trying to land the big fish. They will give up 1 K baht / 2 K baht / 3 K baht or whatever you pay her for a night of sex to try to go for the long haul. Plus you will feel guilty that you not pay her so maybe you spend more on shopping or buy her gold etc... Or maybe she ask for payment in other forms or ways like shopping etc... Remember, we all pay for sex one way or another. You say she thanked you for the things you did for her... which could be many things but if it was shopping then you could have overpaid her normal price just by your shopping. Some ladies won't come out and ask for shopping but they expect it, some girls won't come out and ask for money, but they expect it, etc....

I'm not trying to preach to you, I take good care of my TGF, but it took a long time to develop our relationship and we still are on shaky ground sometimes, we did not jump into relationship over night and she has had to prove and work on things just like I did too. I still have some Gik's on the side that I talk with and see every now and then and I do like to go out ever so often but it is getting harder and harder to get away from the TGF and have to be careful. Unfortunately I am known in certain places and many places know the TGF so even if I am out shopping she can hear reports about me. So who's a bigger wh***? I am of course.

Just don't invest too much, money or feelings, right off the bat. Thai girls can smell and sense weakness and vulnerability in guys a mile away and some will exploit that to the hilt. If you meet her in a P4P place, and you partake in P4P, expect that she is P4P. Not saying they are bad people at all, some real sweet and nice ladies out there are P4P and I think they deserve to be treated like human beings and not like some piece of property. There are some real winners out there in P4P in terms of personality and if you read through this board you'll hear stories of how some P4P girls took care of guys who are sick or showed them around town or gave them money when their wallets were stolen etc.... Just because they are P4P does not mean they are bad people at all. But the other side of the coin is that some P4P ladies are just out to roll you. So it's a coin toss my friend.. did you get lucky or are you getting taken? No one can answer that until it is maybe too late for you and only you can decide your own fate.

So enjoy her, as a friend. If you develop more over time then good for you. Just be on guard at all times until you can build up the trust level.

Just my limited knowledge lack of common sense I'm a dumbass too point of view.... :) And to think.. in two weeks I'll be taken care of by my TGF but I also know that she has a shopping list already waiting for me. But it's a price I am willing, able, and happy to pay, it's my choice.

[QUOTE=Tansak KTV]Of course we do, probably most of us who ever go to LOS end up with numbers of girls we get to know more then just a quick screw. But many of those girls have many guys like us that they "get to know" on a more personal level. I would estimate majority of us have found a few "keepers" out there that we frequent back to often. Those of us that travel to LOS a lot or live there. And many of us have found TGF's. Some of who are ex P4P.

Building a relationship / friendship is fine and it makes your time more enjoyable. But to make a real long term relationship work is hard. Can you take that she screwed for money? Can you trust her to not screw any more? Are you willing to move to Thai and / or support her financially? TRUST is the big issue here and you have to take into account cultural differences. You probably don't know much about Thai culture and she probably doesn't know much about your culture. I would say that TRUST is the biggest obstacle that you will face if you want a relationship. Many long term LOS guys still don't understand Thai Women and the Culture and you might think one thing when she is thinking another thing.

Just be aware... many girls are experts at trying to land the big fish. They will give up 1 K baht / 2 K baht / 3 K baht or whatever you pay her for a night of sex to try to go for the long haul. Plus you will feel guilty that you not pay her so maybe you spend more on shopping or buy her gold etc... Or maybe she ask for payment in other forms or ways like shopping etc... Remember, we all pay for sex one way or another. You say she thanked you for the things you did for her... which could be many things but if it was shopping then you could have overpaid her normal price just by your shopping. Some ladies won't come out and ask for shopping but they expect it, some girls won't come out and ask for money, but they expect it, etc....

I'm not trying to preach to you, I take good care of my TGF, but it took a long time to develop our relationship and we still are on shaky ground sometimes, we did not jump into relationship over night and she has had to prove and work on things just like I did too. I still have some Gik's on the side that I talk with and see every now and then and I do like to go out ever so often but it is getting harder and harder to get away from the TGF and have to be careful. Unfortunately I am known in certain places and many places know the TGF so even if I am out shopping she can hear reports about me. So who's a bigger wh***? I am of course.

Just don't invest too much, money or feelings, right off the bat. Thai girls can smell and sense weakness and vulnerability in guys a mile away and some will exploit that to the hilt. If you meet her in a P4P place, and you partake in P4P, expect that she is P4P. Not saying they are bad people at all, some real sweet and nice ladies out there are P4P and I think they deserve to be treated like human beings and not like some piece of property. There are some real winners out there in P4P in terms of personality and if you read through this board you'll hear stories of how some P4P girls took care of guys who are sick or showed them around town or gave them money when their wallets were stolen etc.... Just because they are P4P does not mean they are bad people at all. But the other side of the coin is that some P4P ladies are just out to roll you. So it's a coin toss my friend.. did you get lucky or are you getting taken? No one can answer that until it is maybe too late for you and only you can decide your own fate.

So enjoy her, as a friend. If you develop more over time then good for you. Just be on guard at all times until you can build up the trust level.

Just my limited knowledge lack of common sense I'm a dumbass too point of view.... :) And to think.. in two weeks I'll be taken care of by my TGF but I also know that she has a shopping list already waiting for me. But it's a price I am willing, able, and happy to pay, it's my choice.[/QUOTE]I understand what you are saying and agree. I dated a thai univ. Grad that I met in the states at a temple while she was teaching thai culture and I've been over several times to see her. Been going to Thailand for about 7 years now and I've met my share of bar girls. On my first trip after my divorce I was like. I want that one and that one and that one, but now I don't take girls away from the bar very much. I also don't spend much money on them as far as shopping is concerned. Dinner and a movie is one thing, but buying them all sorts of things isn't a good idea in my opinion. I do treat them with respect and honesty. In a way I feel bad that they put themselves in danger for money and some get hooked. This may be a decision they make for themselves, but I often wonder what motivates them and recognize that these girls wouldn't give most of us the time of day if they had the same economic advantages that I enjoy. Some I've met are just stunning and are pretty sharp too.

Asian,

Your story and feelings after your last trip is so common. The line and game she is playing I heard so many times I could get rich on that line itself. The last time it happen to my friend who after two years and a 1 million baht later realized that he got took when all his friends told him to " watch out " he met her in Pattaya 2 years ago and her line was I just broke up with my husband so I decided to go it on my own and try to work in the Beer Bar, this is my first night ever. On the first night he got the same love treatment as you did!

Stay friends and move on!

LBM

It it flies, floats or Fvcks; Rent it!

Also, are you sure about the age of your "friend." A Thai girl who says they are 28 may well be 38.

RA

This board seems to have been overrun with bleeding hearts, over the last while filling the board full of tear jerk stories about P4P girls.

While I thought he was often a bit too extreme, bordering on being a mysogynist, I can only wish that Samus Aran was around to slap all these soft-hearted, white knights straight.

It's a very well-worn cliche, but obviously bears repeating. "You can take the girl out of the bar, but you can't take the bar out of the girl".

Guys who form any sort of relationship with these girls beyond the prescribed business exchange are idiots and losers, not to mention setting themselves up for a major disaster.

We've recently been subjected to the all-knowing posts of the likes of Dan7373 who supposedly gleaned his deep insight into Thai culture on his many visits, through intimate, truthful exchanges with his P4P GF. This is laughable, to say the least. "Truthfulness" coupled with a P4P girl is an oxymoron.

There have also been many others wringing their hands in visible angst over the dilemma they face because of some emotional involvement with one P4P girl or another.

The operative word in P4P is "play". That's all it is. These girls are simply not worth anything more than this. They're human beings, so treat them with respect. But, beyond that, don't make the mistake of thinking any sort of normal relationship is possible.


FFF, FFF, FFF, FFF!

R A

I can be no more sure of anything she told me than she can be sure of anything I told her. We're basically on the same level as far as trust is concerned. Bar girls probably assume the worst about farang and it seems most farang here think the worst about them. I don't talk to people and assume they are lying and look for their flaws. These are human beings we're talking about. They are all someone's daughter, sister, and possibly mother and I believe they deserve respect until they prove me wrong. I have no problem with prostitution if one chooses that line of work and only cares about making money, but some of these girls have few choices in life. I grew up to a single mother of two children and my father was never in the picture. My mother worked very hard and made many sacrifices to survive and did the best she could. I'm not out to save anyone. If I wanted to do that I'd be a missionary.

Aslan, 11 Mike, Ft Stewart, Ga

Old Thai Hand

I don't need anyone to slap me straight and expected quite a bit of negativity from some of these pathetic, heartless, know-it-all assholes on this board when I posted this.

[QUOTE=Gangles]I have been reading the last few posts, and I thought that I would add a few comments to the discussion.

Firstly, about the statements that there is plenty of P4P in Thailand. This is partly true, but there is far more in the US, and Australia and other western countries. [/QUOTE]

I wouldn't be so sure about that. Thailand has a pretty extensive Prostitution network and us Farangs see only a little glimpse of it (If you count the places available to Locals that we don't know about)

[QUOTE=Aslan]
Aslan, 11 Mike, Ft Stewart, Ga

[/QUOTE]

Retired Army, 11B, Phu Bai 1972, Udorn 1973, Ft. Benning, Ft. Bragg (JFK Special Warfare School) Ft. Bliss, Fort Ord, Camp Casey 2 ID, etc, etc, etc...

[QUOTE=Aslan]Old Thai Hand

I don't need anyone to slap me straight and expected quite a bit of negativity from some of these pathetic, heartless, know-it-all assholes on this board when I posted this.[/QUOTE]

Well, aren't we touchy? I didn't specifically mention you. I was talking in general terms about many many posts over a long period of time.

Anyway, I'm not heartless, just a realist. Nobody's saying the girls aren't human, nor that they should not be treated well. It's also true that they don't have many choices. But, they do have some. For every P4P girl with a sob story, who has taken the easy way out, there are probably 100 of equal economic and social standing, with the same sad life, who value their personal integrity above quick money and opt to work for considerably less in socially acceptable jobs, in order to not violate their cultural traditions.

The other fact is that few deny that "the life" permanently and irretrievably screws them up, so that they aren't really capable of functioning anywhere but in P4P. Few of them can ever lead normal lives again. I often see girls I knew a dozen years ago, when their were new to the game, in the first bloom of youth, who, now well past their due date are still trolling the scene because they really don't have any other options. Almost all of them look well-worn and years older than they actually are.

A lot of these girls are just plain lazy. I'll give you an example and it's not an uncommon story.

Many years ago, when I was first here, I followed the well worn path and found a GF in a bar on Soi Cowboy. She was, (to use many of the types of descriptions one often sees on here) smart, atypical, not hardened by the life, funny, a GFE etc. etc. She had a sad story, which I won't bother to tell.

She came to live with me, I helped her finish high school and then got her a job as a receptionist/secretary in my university's front office at a good salary for such a job; 10,000/month. I matched her salary, so she had 20,000/month. She lasted a year and then quit, because she didn't like the 9-5 routine. We split up. She lived on some savings and when those ran out she got a job as a waitress on soi 33 for only 7,000/month and eventually ended up back in a bar in Pattaya: full circle after 5 years. She landed another Farang whom she married after knowing him 2 months. I don't know what happened to her after that. But, I wouldn't be surprised if the marriage didn't work out and she's sitting on some bar-stool in Pattaya waiting for the next one to come along.

She had it all, but blew it because she was lazy and had no discipline. It's an all too common story. So, I have very little if any sympathy for any of these girls.

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]<cut>
Anyway, I'm not heartless, just a realist. Nobody's saying the girls aren't human, nor that they should not be treated well. It's also true that they don't have many choices. But, they do have some. For every P4P girl with a sob story, who has taken the easy way out, there are probably 100 of equal economic and social standing, with the same sad life, who value their personal integrity above quick money and opt to work for considerably less in socially acceptable jobs, in order to not violate their cultural traditions.
<cut>[/QUOTE]

This is a very valid point. They do have an option. Not an easy one, but an option. You see many many girls, working as waitresses, maids, receptionists, hair stylists, etc. who choose to work for less for the right reasons and often for the good of their long term outlook.

AT2

[QUOTE=AsiaTraveler2]This is a very valid point. They do have an option. [/QUOTE]

OTH is correct however that many of them are lazy. Maybe I won't go as far as say they are lazy (atleast not all of them) but once they see they can make 40 - 80 K a month it is hard for them to accept to work for 7 K a month. Even getting a girl to live on 15,000 baht a month is hard to do if you take her out of a bar and that is close to double what the uneducated and unskilled labor earns (I think unskilled is maybe 7,000 a month).

They have an option, not an attractive option espeically if they have family depending on them for support and they have already offered the support. How are they to tell family that they can't send XXX baht a month anymore as they are getting a different job. And most of them have no marketable skills that they can't even come close to getting what OTH gave that girl.

Yes they all have options, but it's not always that simple. Especially once they get into it for a while.

[QUOTE=Tansak KTV]OTH is correct however that many of them are lazy. Maybe I won't go as far as say they are lazy (atleast not all of them) but once they see they can make 40 - 80 K a month it is hard for them to accept to work for 7 K a month. Even getting a girl to live on 15,000 baht a month is hard to do if you take her out of a bar and that is close to double what the uneducated and unskilled labor earns (I think unskilled is maybe 7,000 a month).

They have an option, not an attractive option espeically if they have family depending on them for support and they have already offered the support. How are they to tell family that they can't send XXX baht a month anymore as they are getting a different job. And most of them have no marketable skills that they can't even come close to getting what OTH gave that girl.

Yes they all have options, but it's not always that simple. Especially once they get into it for a while.[/QUOTE]

We are probably on the same page. I too, don't agree that it's necessarily laziness. It's the disparity in earnings with the huge tradeoff of the girls "selling their soul", that makes it a very difficult decision. It's also a decision that often results in a a "no turning back" scenario.

AT2

[QUOTE=AsiaTraveler2]It's the disparity in earnings with the huge tradeoff of the girls "selling their soul", that makes it a very difficult decision. It's also a decision that often results in a a "no turning back" scenario.AT2[/QUOTE]

I think that suggesting that these girls put thought into a "difficult decision" is quite a stretch. Thais don't think that much. What usually happens is that only seeing the short-term gains, the party life that many of them enjoy (drugs and drink play a huge part), the lack of responsibility without a thought for the future, many girls, far from desparate, but with little ambition just go this route. Sure there are those that are supporting their families. But, these tend to be older women and it's often because they have dead-beat Dads, brothers, ex-BFs/husbands who don't accept their financial responsibilities. Thai women, (at least Isaan women) are expected to carry the burden.

However, having said that there are large numbers of younger girls who are in it only for the easy money, which they spend largely on themselves.

Also, as for the types of opportunities I gave my ex...lots of these girls could do some of the same, even without help from a Farang. Even in a country as lopsided as Thailand, where the privileged get preferential treatment, they still have free education for 12 years, and students loans and scholarships for college and university.

Most of the P4P girls I've met dropped out of school by choice because they didn't want to study, not because they didn't have the opportunity to study. So, if they have limited options, they have themselves to blame to a certain extent.

However, as in all things there are exceptions. I mentioned once in a post about a girl I used to take out of Long Gun back in 1998. This girl was quite popular and very shrewd. She had a couple of guys online sending her money including one moron in Australia who sent her 65,000/month. She had a bank balance of 600,000 baht. When I met her she spoke almost no English. Within a year she had, quit the bar, studied English and enrolled in university. She eventually managed to get an MBA. She always told me she had a plan and purpose for working in the bar. But, she clearly is an exceptional case.

I stand by what I have said. Many of these girls (but, of course not all) are lazy, lack ambition and never think about the long term.

Asian,

No one is being heartless, but if you didn't have reservations you wouldn't have opened your heart to tell us your story! to see what you would come up with. Just because the answers you have read isn't what you expected don't go away mad! Sometimes shock treatment is what we all need from time to time.
We here all (nearly) agree that they are human beings and regardless of their profession or where they came from they should still be treated with respect until they prove that they don't deserve it.

You came, you enjoyed and you want more of it like yaba! and you seem to have already made up your mine so come again and enjoy yourself with her but always with a bit of caution and watch your pocket book. If we are correct the call for help will not be far behind after your next trip! Sick snake, sick dog, sick cat... the call will come! If not then you might have found a gem and we were wrong but not often.

Good luck but enjoy yourself with a bit of caution.

LBM

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand] ... Thais don't think that much. What usually happens is that only seeing the short-term gains, the party life that many of them enjoy (drugs and drink play a huge part), the lack of responsibility without a thought for the future, many girls, far from desparate, but with little ambition just go this route ... there are large numbers of younger girls who are in it only for the easy money, which they spend largely on themselves...[/QUOTE]

Let us all take a moment to humbly bow our heads in silent tribute to this wonderful state of affairs in the Land of Smiles. :)

So much of this discussion is redundancy of many prior posts but not much appears to have changed. There are strong and weak points on both sides of the debate and in the end people will make their own choice because no one will likely make a decision based on what is posted here. Hookers and matrimony will generally not translate into solid unions but a man takes a chance when he enters into a relationship with a normal woman and 50 percent of the time those relationships with normal women will fail. Entering into a relationship with a hooker has higher incident of risk and failure. It’s a matter of how just how much you are willing to risk to reap your reward.

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]For every P4P girl with a sob story, who has taken the easy way out, there are probably 100 of equal economic and social standing, with the same sad life, who value their personal integrity above quick money and opt to work for considerably less in socially acceptable jobs, in order to not violate their cultural traditions.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand] 2,000,000 at one time. It remains the current estimate of the number of active prostitutes in the country.[/QUOTE]

By my understanding of statistics, that equates to about one-in-ten, not one-in-a-hundred. And that's before we make any adjustments for social demography. This is way too large a percentage to be passed off as layabouts and misfits.

[QUOTE=Terry Terrier]By my understanding of statistics that equates to about one-in-ten, not one-in-a-hundred. And that's before we make any adjustments for social demography. This is way too large a percentage to be passed off as layabouts and misfits[/QUOTE]

My mistake. You're more or less correct in your calculations (it's supposedly around 7%). I don't know what the adult female population is. I only know that the total female popluation is somewhere around 38,000,000. Regardless of 7% or 10%, that still means that 90-93% of Thai women opt to try to survive by not taking the easy path.

I still stand by my opinion that they are mostly 'layabouts and misfits'. They are most certainly social pariahs within Thai culture. They don't deserve the deifying they sometimes get on this board.

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]...They don't deserve the deifying they sometimes get on this board.[/QUOTE]

So true! I've found that dealing with them on a day to day basis definately requires a more or less hands on approach as opposed to the largely spiritual deification process they sometimes receive here.

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]She lasted a year and then quit, because she didn't like the 9-5 routine. She ...eventually ended up back in a bar in Pattaya: full circle after 5 years. She had it all, but blew it because she was lazy and had no discipline.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]Within a year she had quit the bar, studied English and enrolled in university. She eventually managed to get an MBA. She always told me she had a plan and purpose for working in the bar.[/QUOTE]

OTH: Your measurement of success is based solely on their ability to leave the industry and do something 'worthwhile' with their lives. Why is it that people in other occupations are allowed to fritter away their cash and live for the moment, but hookers are expected to aim for something 'higher'? We praise others for longevity of service and increased earning potential, but only credit sex workers when they get out quick and find a low-paying, but respectable, job. That makes no sense to me.

I don't understand how choosing the highest paid job available to you, especially if it's something you enjoy doing, constitutes being 'lazy'. One of my mates, who used to run his own business in construction, recently left his labour-intensive, fulltime $70,000 job to join the mining boom up north. He now works two weeks on, two weeks off (ie. he works only six months a year), sits in a tin hut all day giving directions to trucks and earns over $150,000. How is this different to a woman choosing sex work over a minimum-wage waitressing job? Nobody is calling my mate lazy...even though he brags to all and sundry about the 'easy money' he's making. In fact, they're congratulating him on a shrewd business move. Go figure.

You need to remember that your comments on personal integrity and discipline are based on YOUR ideas of what's socially/sexually acceptable and what YOU consider to be a worthwhile career or lifestyle. The women you're judging may not view things the same way.

[QUOTE=Rubber Nursey]You need to remember that your comments on personal integrity and discipline are based on YOUR ideas of what's socially/sexually acceptable and what YOU consider to be a worthwhile career or lifestyle. The women you're judging may not view things the same way.[/QUOTE]

Despite your acknowledged work with Empower, I doubt you really know much about how Thai women think. You probably have some idea about how certain Thai hookers think. But, even there, I'm sure that those involved in Empower and therefore those to whom you've had access represent a very small number compared even to those in P4P, let alone the Thai female population at large.

I'm basing my opinion in large part on what is socially acceptable in Thailand, not my personal idea. I know what Thais think about hookers.

Of course, Thais are hypicritical because on the one hand Thai men perpetuate P4P, while at the same time the culture condemns it. But, such is the nature of things in Thailand.

Making the most money in the short term at the expense of one's long term respectability is not the wisest move, especially here. It's basically a dead-end. These girls have a very short shelf-life before they are completely used up. Then what? The spiral down is a quick one.


Anyway, this discussion has strayed off my original point which was that some posters on here need to stop being all soft and gooey about these girls and instead, stick to the mantra: "Find, Fuck and Forget".

It's a well-worn discussion, but bears repeating from time to time. It seems that every newbie who gets carried away with the whole scene and succumbs to the charms of one or another bargirl needs to understand the inevitable bad ending to any kind of emotional involvement.

There have been countless stories over the years of guys utterly destroyed both emotionally and financially by these girls.

But, then again, why should I care if somebody wants to ruin his life by getting involved with a P4P girl?

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]I'm basing my opinion in large part on what is socially acceptable in Thailand, not my personal idea. I know what Thais think about hookers.[/QUOTE]
I'm willing to bet they think the same thing ALL societies think of ALL hookers. Do you think I can write 'wh*re' on my resume?

What you said in your last few posts could apply to any hooker in any country. Check out any other thread on this board and you'll find the same conversation going on - hookers are lazy, hookers are greedy, hookers don't plan for their futures, you can take the girl out of the brothel but you can't take the brothel out of the girl, etc. What I want to know is WHY. Why is a woman who earns 10 times the average monthly wage 'taking the easy way out'? Why is it 'lazy' to choose hooking over waitressing or factory work (or marriage)? You didn't address any of my comments in your post.

I wasn't questioning your knowledge of Thai culture, but the terminology you used and your method of measuring a working girls' success in general. You wrote about a girl who 'had it all and blew it', by shunning education and 9-5 work and going back to the bar. YOU may feel that she 'had it all', but obviously SHE didn't, or she wouldn't have walked away from it, would she? All I'm saying is that your idea of 'having it all' might differ from hers. I know that I, personally, am much happier out there making my own money and my own decisions, than having a man support me financially. Maybe that particular girl was just happier working in a bar. Who are we to tell her she should be aiming higher than personal happiness?

OTH, I only ask you these questions because you're an intelligent man with an analytical mind. Your answers may come from a Thai perspective, but on subjects like this they can be applied across the board. If you don't want to answer to me, then by all means put me on ignore - but please don't play the 'You're not from Thailand' card every time I post on this thread. Contrary to popular belief, I don't live in some magical fairyland where sex workers are revered for their choice of occupation. I'm a wh*re...which means exactly the same thing in my country as it does in yours.

By the way... a comment on ex-hookers not being good girlfriend material. That's not always our fault. Often it's the *idea* of living with a sex work past, rather than the reality of it, that sabotages the relationship. Knowing your girlfriend used to work can trigger a whole lot of irrational fears and insecurities in men. If you can't look at your girlfriend without seeing a wh*re (and all the stereotypical crap that comes with it), the relationship is doomed. Unfortunately, I have very recent, first-hand experience in the damage a partner's over-active imagination can do. :(

[QUOTE=Rubber Nursey]I'm willing to bet they think the same thing ALL societies think of ALL hookers. Do you think I can write 'wh*re' on my resume?

What you said in your last few posts could apply to any hooker in any country. Check out any other thread on this board and you'll find the same conversation going on - hookers are lazy, hookers are greedy, hookers don't plan for their futures, you can take the girl out of the brothel but you can't take the brothel out of the girl, etc. What I want to know is WHY. Why is a woman who earns 10 times the average monthly wage 'taking the easy way out'? Why is it 'lazy' to choose hooking over waitressing or factory work (or marriage)? You didn't address any of my comments in your post.[/QUOTE]This is what I was talking about in my orig. Post. Who is to say this is the easy way out? How boring it must be to sit at a biergarten for 10 hours a day and wait for someone to take interest in you. Talking to man after man and being shot down many times. How is it the easy way to know you're probably end up with some overweight, unattractive farang that will want to do who knows what sexually to you? How is it easy to fear that they might hurt you physically. How is it easy to fear for your life and a std every time? How easy is it to explain this work to a potential boyfriend and move on? How easy is it to reconcile this line of work spiritually? How is it easy to know you have no marketable skills down the road.

This easy way out perception is, in my mind, the way mongers justify their view of prostitutes and disassociate themselves from any wrong doing. Doing this makes it easier not to think of them as human and to treat them with our own interests in mind. It makes us feel better about ourselves for our activity.

I believe many of the girls may do this a few times and become seduced by possibility. There is possibility of marrying a farang and having a better life. There is a possibility of using this line of work to your advantage financially and changing your future and that of those around you. I believe we are all *****s in a way. We all do things we don't like or agree with for money to a certain extent. There are few people who love their job so much they would be willing to take a pay cut. This is no different that some ambulance chasing lawyer having an ethical or moral problem with what he does and overlooking that for the reward.

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]There have been countless stories over the years of guys utterly destroyed both emotionally and financially by these girls.?[/QUOTE]
True but there are stories of some girls being emotionally destroyed by Falangs too.
[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]
But, then again, why should I care if somebody wants to ruin his life by getting involved with a P4P girl?[/QUOTE]

You shouldn't, it’s his life, let him live it the way he chooses.

[QUOTE=Rubber Nursey]...OTH, I only ask you these questions because you're an intelligent man with an analytical mind.([/QUOTE]

Oh my goodness. I think you may be a little off there, RN. But if you're looking for a font of bigotry and resentment, you'll be more than satisfied.

Actually in fairness OTH isn't 'wrong', he's just bourgeois: all that tiresome stuff about poor people being 'lazy' or 'layabouts'. Basically all upper-working-class social climbers talk that way - they think it is the way their betters speak, or that it will please them. But as in so many things, their earnestness is their dead giveaway.

Is it only me that finds it amazing the type of games some of these thai girls play, much more so then Filipina's or Chinese ladies.

My current GF pushes here and there but does nothing too major until she feels she has a little too much power and a little too much liberty and goes over the top with comments and statements (not about money or such folks). And as she has pushed and pushed and I promptly lose my cool and tell her to bugger off but not in such nice terms and tell her exactly that she can back to her rice paddy etc..., and she can promptly go to sleep or let it rest and turn her back on the entire issue. However she wakes up the next day all sweet as can be as if nothing happened and she didn't do anything wrong or say anything wrong. Like they have a magic rewind and erase button to completely erase that moment out of their minds.

Now if I take a wrong step or overstep some bounds or if I am wrong... oh watch out for the fireworks and drama about how she wants to die and she's no good and I no love her etc..... The pulling out the knife and holding it to her chest screaming how I want her to die, throwing her phone at the wall just to smash it... the friggin drama (and expense) of arguing with a thai woman is just amazing...

The logic of a thai woman just seems completely alien to me, much worse then women from philippines and china. This is the third long time girl to pull such crap with me and I never got that from PI or China... am I just unlucky in picking the long term girls or are all thai girls like this.....

It all depends on what you are willing to let them get away with, Tansak. I had an asian GF a few years ago who sometimes had a temper. She threw her phone against a wall, and at the time, it was a nice phone. I refused to help her out with a new phone for 2 weeks, and then, I bought her a very basic second hand phone. She was not happy, but she took care of that phone for 6 months as if it were a bar of gold. I bought her a nice new phone after 6 months. She never threw anything again.

On the rare occasions I did something which did not sit well with her, (mostly minor stuff), if she pulled a hissie fit, I just didn't tolerate it. She either snapped out of it, or she could spend the evening / night outside. I locked the door, told her to come back in the morning, and that was that. Make up sex was always over the top fabulous, BTW.

They are not stupid. They will push the buttons as much as they can, and try to get away with murder. Up to you to let them, or not let them.

My 2 cents.

[QUOTE=1Ball]Make up sex was always over the top fabulous, BTW.[/QUOTE]

No kidding about the make up sex. Unfortunately I don't think this one knows the buttons yet and is trying to find out what they are and what limits they have.

[QUOTE=Tansak KTV]Is it only me that finds it amazing the type of games some of these thai girls play, much more so then Filipina's or Chinese ladies.

My current GF pushes here and there but does nothing too major until she feels she has a little too much power and a little too much liberty and goes over the top with comments and statements (not about money or such folks). And as she has pushed and pushed and I promptly lose my cool and tell her to bugger off but not in such nice terms and tell her exactly that she can back to her rice paddy etc..., and she can promptly go to sleep or let it rest and turn her back on the entire issue. However she wakes up the next day all sweet as can be as if nothing happened and she didn't do anything wrong or say anything wrong. Like they have a magic rewind and erase button to completely erase that moment out of their minds.

Now if I take a wrong step or overstep some bounds or if I am wrong... oh watch out for the fireworks and drama about how she wants to die and she's no good and I no love her etc..... The pulling out the knife and holding it to her chest screaming how I want her to die, throwing her phone at the wall just to smash it... the friggin drama (and expense) of arguing with a thai woman is just amazing...

The logic of a thai woman just seems completely alien to me, much worse then women from philippines and china. This is the third long time girl to pull such crap with me and I never got that from PI or China... am I just unlucky in picking the long term girls or are all thai girls like this.....[/QUOTE]

Nope, you pretty well summed it up.

It is somewhat difficult for a Western man to go through this because he hates confrontation and that excessive fuss a Thai lady can make if she feels mad about him. And btw mad is the actual word. Thais in general (not just women) can completely lose it at times. Thailand is a violent society, with a lot of blood and murder for no obvious reason other then naked anger.

In the interest of domestic peace though, the man has do decide where to draw the line. It is probably better to play deaf and blind to the innuendos and closed faces that come with minor tantrum, but if the lady is in the mood for a big fight, it is proper to confront her. There are two ways: either play mad yourself and show her that you are even more outraged and angry that she can ever be, or act disappointed at her, point out how much of a great person you are etc. and tell her that she is an ungrateful ***** who does not deserve to be with you and that there are millions of worthier ladies who would be more than willing to take her place.

Naturally, this is always a risky strategy, and you need to make sure she cannot physically harm you either on the spot or later on. I am serious. A really upset Thai lady can become a murderer pretty easily.

If she had a good reason to be upset about you in the first place (typically because you have been screwing around and she found out), again you have two options. Either you ditch here right away (and be careful that she does not have a knife in her hands) or you apologise abjectly and take her to the gold shop for some serious shopping before engaging into great make up sex.

Living with a Thai woman is a sort of emotional roller coaster ride. You never know when you are going to walk past that infrared device that will make the alarm bell ring and hell break loose. But I am told this could be said about any woman. At least we get great sex bundled with it.

Sorry to say it is not only Thai ladies who cannot behave normally.
I had two girlfriends in U.S. behaved the same way.
GF from hell at night and sweet as a kitten in the morning.
I think it is their hormones doing the trick on their brains.
But glad to say Majority of my GF and P4P are really cool.
We being soft hearted cannot or do not have the willingness to
boot the bad behavior girls out.
Firstly because we do not know what she will do next and secondly
the make up sex is spectacular.

[QUOTE=Seydlitz]And btw mad is the actual word. Thais in general (not just women) can completely lose it at times. Thailand is a violent society, with a lot of blood and murder for no obvious reason other then naked anger.[/QUOTE]

Absolutely true. There's a high incidence of mental illness, general emotional instability, and high levels of immaturity, not to mention shear rage, that run through the whole culture.

Also, Thais lack guts to put up with the smallest set back and fall quickly into despair and desperation at the slightest provocation. Thus, you have incidents like those often seen in the Thai media of somebody or other sitting on a roof-top ready to jump, or someone else having shot or stabbed someone in a jealous rage. The 'knife at the throat' (her throat or your throat) is a an all-to-common ploy. I have a friend who was stabbed twice by his absolutely mad GF, who then attempted to stab herself.

At the moment, we seem to be in suicide season. There have been a spate of them lately. Recently there was a well-publicized case of a girl who jumped off her balcony simply because her Thai BF had another girl. Thais seem to go off over the most insignificant things. Only yesterday, a girl jumped off the top of the science faculty building at my uni simply because her grade had dropped from an A to a B - stupid girl.

Cultural pressures and expectations and the all-to-familiar "face" play a large part in this. But, it's also to do with the Thais just not being a very tough people and just plain gutless. They can't deal with anything.

[QUOTE=Sammon]Sorry to say it is not only Thai ladies who cannot behave normally.[/QUOTE]

Yes I know women in general are nuts but Thai ladies are more "dramatic" then Filipina's, Chinese, and women from my home country...

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]Absolutely true. There's a high incidence of mental illness, general emotional instability, and high levels of immaturity, not to mention shear rage, that run through the whole culture.

Also, Thais lack guts to put up with the smallest set back and fall quickly into despair and desperation at the slightest provocation. Thus, you have incidents like those often seen in the Thai media of somebody or other sitting on a roof-top ready to jump, or someone else having shot or stabbed someone in a jealous rage. The 'knife at the throat' (her throat or your throat) is a an all-to-common ploy. I have a friend who was stabbed twice by his absolutely mad GF, who then attempted to stab herself.

At the moment, we seem to be in suicide season. There have been a spate of them lately. Recently there was a well-publicized case of a girl who jumped off her balcony simply because her Thai BF had another girl. Thais seem to go off over the most insignificant things. Only yesterday, a girl jumped off the top of the science faculty building at my uni simply because her grade had dropped from an A to a B - stupid girl.

Cultural pressures and expectations and the all-to-familiar "face" play a large part in this. But, it's also to do with the Thais just not being a very tough people and just plain gutless. They can't deal with anything.[/QUOTE]Japan, where I am.

OTH,

I haven't been here as long as you have and certainly haven't experience the Thai society from top to bottom because I'm stuck in the bottom! But your comments! You have something there!

LBM

[QUOTE=Tansak KTV]Yes I know women in general are nuts but Thai ladies are more "dramatic" then Filipina's, Chinese, and women from my home country...[/QUOTE]

I must be lucky because my Thai wife isn't anything at all like you describe. She is on an even keel and never gets mad or upset. In five years we have never had a fight, raised our voices or spoken a harsh word to each other.

Other than that, I keep the knives away from her and don't live anywhere near ducks (let's see if anyone on the forum knows what that means).

[QUOTE=Retired Army]Other than that, I keep the knives away from her and don't live anywhere near ducks (let's see if anyone on the forum knows what that means).[/QUOTE]

I know exactly what that is.... in my banana republic country it's pigs... but I know the duck issues in Thai...

[QUOTE=Retired Army]Other than that, I keep the knives away from her and don't live anywhere near ducks (let's see if anyone on the forum knows what that means).[/QUOTE]

And you think that's going to stop her? if she really wants to do it she will, knives or not, ducks or not.

For all we know, she could be enticing you to a nice BJ and then get a stronger bite than you would have liked (teeth are pretty sharp).

[QUOTE=NicFrenchy]And you think that's going to stop her? if she really wants to do it she will, knives or not, ducks or not.

For all we know, she could be enticing you to a nice BJ and then get a stronger bite than you would have liked (teeth are pretty sharp).[/QUOTE]

Gee you're full of good thoughts today.....

A 32 y.o. Thai woman committed suicide in BKK last night because her husband wouldn't take her out to dinner.

A nation of over-reacting nutters...pure and simple...and the women lead the way.

OTH, was the husband a local, or a foreigner?

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]A 32 y.o. Thai woman committed suicide in BKK last night because her husband wouldn't take her out to dinner.[/QUOTE]

Don't believe everything you see on TV. For all we know, maybe the husband got rid of her because she forgot to buy his daily bottle of Local Whisky (or shall I say Rhum).

[QUOTE=NicFrenchy]Don't believe everything you see on TV. For all we know, maybe the husband got rid of her because she forgot to buy his daily bottle of Local Whisky (or shall I say Rhum).[/QUOTE]

It was a definitely a suicide and the story was in the newspapers, including the English-language press.

1Ball
The husband was Thai.

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]Absolutely true. There's a high incidence of mental illness, general emotional instability, and high levels of immaturity, not to mention shear rage, that run through the whole culture.

Also, Thais lack guts to put up with the smallest set back and fall quickly into despair and desperation at the slightest provocation. Thus, you have incidents like those often seen in the Thai media of somebody or other sitting on a roof-top ready to jump, or someone else having shot or stabbed someone in a jealous rage. The 'knife at the throat' (her throat or your throat) is a an all-to-common ploy. I have a friend who was stabbed twice by his absolutely mad GF, who then attempted to stab herself.

At the moment, we seem to be in suicide season. There have been a spate of them lately. Recently there was a well-publicized case of a girl who jumped off her balcony simply because her Thai BF had another girl. Thais seem to go off over the most insignificant things. Only yesterday, a girl jumped off the top of the science faculty building at my uni simply because her grade had dropped from an A to a B - stupid girl.

Cultural pressures and expectations and the all-to-familiar "face" play a large part in this. But, it's also to do with the Thais just not being a very tough people and just plain gutless. They can't deal with anything.[/QUOTE]

I thought you might have known the same girl I knew.........emotional instability, and a definite lack of emotional maturity.......32 y.o., 2 children, very beautiful, very sexy, but unpredictable. I had flown her up to Chiang Mai for a week with me, because I was beginning to really have strong feelings for her. On about the 4th day, I got up in the middle of the night to go to the hong nam, and I decided to take my phone with me to check my messages, but I didn't want to wake her with the noise from the phone. Now the messages I was checking had to do with my work.....not "other gfs." When I returned, she was packing her bags and wouldn't listen to a word I said. She flew home that day.........end of romance. There were more incidents, but I don't want to make this too long. She definitely fits this profile OTH.

[QUOTE=Oosik1]I thought you might have known the same girl I knew.........emotional instability, and a definite lack of emotional maturity.......32 y.o., 2 children, very beautiful, very sexy, but unpredictable. I had flown her up to Chiang Mai for a week with me, because I was beginning to really have strong feelings for her. On about the 4th day, I got up in the middle of the night to go to the hong nam, and I decided to take my phone with me to check my messages, but I didn't want to wake her with the noise from the phone. Now the messages I was checking had to do with my work.....not "other gfs." When I returned, she was packing her bags and wouldn't listen to a word I said. She flew home that day.........end of romance. There were more incidents, but I don't want to make this too long. She definitely fits this profile OTH.[/QUOTE]

Are you sure she just wasn't looking for any excuse to leave and save face?:)

You could be right, but since she initiated later contacts, I don't think so. We had been to the Night Safari Zoo on a previous visit to CM by her and had a threesome pic taken with a Tiger cub. I give it to her. She told me when she came to CM the second time that she had torn it up, because she called me once and my line was busy, so she tore up the picture accusing me of talking with another woman. How you deal with someone like that? She did me a favor by leaving. There are just too many normal, beautiful, and loving women in Thailand to settle for a nut case.

[QUOTE=Oosik1] How you deal with someone like that? [/QUOTE]

You don't

[QUOTE=Oosik1] There are just too many normal, beautiful, and loving women in Thailand to settle for a nut case.[/QUOTE]

Ain't that the truth. But, you need to get away from the tourist areas.

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]....
At the moment, we seem to be in suicide season. There have been a spate of them lately. Recently there was a well-publicized case of a girl who jumped off her balcony simply because her Thai BF had another girl. Thais seem to go off over the most insignificant things. Only yesterday, a girl jumped off the top of the science faculty building at my uni simply because her grade had dropped from an A to a B - stupid girl.

Cultural pressures and expectations and the all-to-familiar "face" play a large part in this. But, it's also to do with the Thais just not being a very tough people and just plain gutless. They can't deal with anything.[/QUOTE]

I'd like to point out that suicide is a big problem all over the world, including the West. USA has a pretty high murder rate compared to other countries. But you probably would be surprised to find out that a lot more people in USA die from suicide than from homicide. Here is an article about it:
[url]http://www.livescience.com/health/070829_bad_suicide.html[/url]

For various reasons, western media doesn't like to report suicides in their own countries. And many westerners have unrealistically rosy perception of their own people in terms of emotional weakness and suicide.

[QUOTE=Aslan]This is what I was talking about in my orig. Post. Who is to say this is the easy way out? How boring it must be to sit at a biergarten for 10 hours a day and wait for someone to take interest in you. Talking to man after man and being shot down many times. How is it the easy way to know you're probably end up with some overweight, unattractive farang that will want to do who knows what sexually to you? How is it easy to fear that they might hurt you physically. How is it easy to fear for your life and a std every time? How easy is it to explain this work to a potential boyfriend and move on? How easy is it to reconcile this line of work spiritually? How is it easy to know you have no marketable skills down the road.

This easy way out perception is, in my mind, the way mongers justify their view of prostitutes and disassociate themselves from any wrong doing. Doing this makes it easier not to think of them as human and to treat them with our own interests in mind. It makes us feel better about ourselves for our activity.

I believe many of the girls may do this a few times and become seduced by possibility. There is possibility of marrying a farang and having a better life. There is a possibility of using this line of work to your advantage financially and changing your future and that of those around you. I believe we are all *****s in a way. We all do things we don't like or agree with for money to a certain extent. There are few people who love their job so much they would be willing to take a pay cut. This is no different that some ambulance chasing lawyer having an ethical or moral problem with what he does and overlooking that for the reward.[/QUOTE]There are many ways 2 look at this. Many on the forum make valid points. I don't see anythng inherently wrong with selling a service (sex) what the girls do/or don't do with the money they make is their business. Some can argue they should use the money and invest in the future, save, make a business, study. In developed countries there exist subcultures of people that don't want to work hard, study, learn a trade as well as sex workers.

All I can say is it seems difficult for anyone with reasonable education/and or intellectual development without formal education to have a significant relationship (romantic) with a high % of the bar girls. Those in entertainment venues hopefully are not trying to find a meaningful relationship there.

Hey, Longshoremen have highly coveted (by some) jobs, make a lot of money, and and don't seem highly interested in intellectual development either.

Highly unlikely many of those girls will become ambulance chasing lawyers, but then again, if they did, the fees would skyrocket.

Live and let live

[QUOTE=Dan7373]I'd like to point out that suicide is a big problem all over the world, including the West. USA has a pretty high murder rate compared to other countries. But you probably would be surprised to find out that a lot more people in USA die from suicide than from homicide. Here is an article about it:
[url]http://www.livescience.com/health/070829_bad_suicide.html[/url]

For various reasons, western media doesn't like to report suicides in their own countries. And many westerners have unrealistically rosy perception of their own people in terms of emotional weakness and suicide.[/QUOTE]
This discussion came up quite recently, and somebody produced a world league table of suicides. Thailand was mid-table.

IMO nearly all suicides are over-reactions. But (as flagged up by OTH) many Thai female suicides seem to be, on the face of it, incredibly silly. I wonder how big a contribution the hugely popular Thai Lakorn (soap operas) make to this type of mentality?

[QUOTE=Oosik1]There are just too many normal, beautiful, and loving women in Thailand to settle for a nut case.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Retired Army]Ain't that the truth. But, you need to get away from the tourist areas.[/QUOTE]

I hate to disagree with you. But, I'd say that the majority of Thai women are mentally and emotionally unbalanced, not to mention incredibly immature.

I've witnessed countless examples over the years from "regular" Thai women, that have convinced me that many, if not most are abnormal in one way or another.

To answer Terry Terrier's question...I think that the situations and behaviour dramatized on Thai Lakorn are both symptomatic of this abnormality and also a huge contributor to it.

On any given night, Thai TV displays overt and wild female (and male) hysteria and histrionics for all to see and emulate. The Thais are not a sophisticated people, especially up-country. They take what they see on TV much more seriously and literally than we do in the West. Thus, it has a huge impact on their belief system and subsequent behaviour. Stomping one's feet, and losing one's cool at the slightest provocation, like a petulant child is ingrained into every Thai woman's psyche.

The great cultural myth here, that Thais like to shove in your face is that they are a calm, serene, happy, smiling, loving people because they're Buddhists, not like us mean, aggressive Farang.

The truth is quite the opposite. They bottle up an incredilbe amount of emotion and anger, which then goes off, often repeatedly, like a rocket at any given moment, with often disastrous results.

Volatile and unstable, like nitro is probably a more accurate description.

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]I hate to disagree with you. But, I'd say that the majority of Thai women are mentally and emotionally unbalanced, not to mention incredibly immature.

I've witnessed countless examples over the years from "regular" Thai women, that have convinced me that many, if not most are abnormal in one way or another.

To answer Terry Terrier's question...I think that the situations and behaviour dramatized on Thai Lakorn are both symptomatic of this abnormality and also a huge contributor to it.

On any given night, Thai TV displays overt and wild female (and male) hysteria and histrionics for all to see and emulate. The Thais are not a sophisticated people, especially up-country. They take what they see on TV much more seriously and literally than we do in the West. Thus, it has a huge impact on their belief system and subsequent behaviour. Stomping one's feet, and losing one's cool at the slightest provocation, like a petulant child is ingrained into every Thai woman's psyche.

The great cultural myth here, that Thais like to shove in your face is that they are a calm, serene, happy, smiling, loving people because they're Buddhists, not like us mean, aggressive Farang.

The truth is quite the opposite. They bottle up an incredilbe amount of emotion and anger, which then goes off, often repeatedly, like a rocket at any given moment, with often disastrous results.

Volatile and unstable, like nitro is probably a more accurate description.[/QUOTE]

I've seen my share of "head cases" too; but, I have also seen many really decent, what I consider, "normal" Thai women. But, then again, they are more mature, better educated, and usually work with, or are accustomed to, Westerners. Might just be my social circle. I certainly don't consider my wife to be as you describe all Thai wome. I have never met a more calm, understanding and considerate woman in my wife. I know at times she would like to "go off" but we have decided that arguing is not an option. Discussion and compromise is the solution. Maybe my wife is an anomaly, but I’ve seen her friends and most of them seem fairly “normal” to me. So perhaps I’m the one that’s abnormal.

OTH, I strongly suspect that you have seen too much of Thais and Thailand and have a somewhat jaded opinion. I know that I got the same way myself after a few years in Bangkok. It’s enough to make you want to leave and never return. But, once you leave, after a while you start to miss the place as you forget the bad and remember the good.

With all this talking about jumpers... atleast now I know why there are bars on the outside of the apartment balcony where I will stay. Wondered how someone could get up and break in that high up..... I'm not the brightest bulb in the group I will admit that but coming from a banana republic where our tallest building is two stories we don't have jumpers... only knives...

But I must say, you mates have completely depressed the hell out of me. Time to go to Laos instead of LOS ????

[QUOTE=Retired Army]
OTH, I strongly suspect that you have seen too much of Thais and Thailand and have a somewhat jaded opinion. I know that I got the same way myself after a few years in Bangkok. It’s enough to make you want to leave and never return. But, once you leave, after a while you start to miss the place as you forget the bad and remember the good.[/QUOTE]

I did leave once, lived in the Caribbean for a year, hated it and returned to Thailand because I kind of missed it. I have no regrets coming back, as I met my GF and she's relatively normal, and atypically calm like your wife.

But, I really have had enough of Thais and Thailand. Maybe being surrounded by the absolutely disgusting HiSo crowd for the last 3 years has done me in. Fortunately, my GF has had her eyes opened to the world at large and now feels as I do. She often complains about how narrow, small, bigoted and selfish Thais are. And lest someone says she got this from me, I've always been very careful not to express negative opinions about anything Thai to her. So I was surprised when she came to the decision on her own that she doesn't like it here anymore and wants to leave.

But, wanting to leave and being able to leave are 2 different things.

All I know us that it used to be fun here and now it isn't.

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]I did leave once, lived in the Caribbean for a year, hated it and returned to Thailand because I kind of missed it. [/QUOTE]

OTH..... grass is always greener on the other side... until you jump that fence and land in shit.

I couldn't stand the US mainland nor the Caribbean nor Central America nor South America. Just can't take their crap, don't think things have gotten any better.

well, I am looking ofr a place to hang my hat, and so far have come up empty handed. Suggestions? Warm, good healthcare, value for money, good food, good diving, affordable....

Any thoughts?

[QUOTE=1Ball]well, I am looking ofr a place to hang my hat, and so far have come up empty handed. Suggestions? Warm, good healthcare, value for money, good food, good diving, affordable....

Any thoughts?[/QUOTE]

Come to my Banana Republic for the diving part......

[QUOTE=1Ball]well, I am looking ofr a place to hang my hat, and so far have come up empty handed. Suggestions? Warm, good healthcare, value for money, good food, good diving, affordable....

Any thoughts?[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I'm waiting for OTH or someone else to convince me that somewhere else is better, all things considered -- especially the easy availablility of great sex.

[QUOTE=1Ball]well, I am looking ofr a place to hang my hat, and so far have come up empty handed. Suggestions? Warm, good healthcare, value for money, good food, good diving, affordable....

Any thoughts?[/QUOTE]

Just that though Thailand is a shadow of its former self, and gets worse every day, it is still better than everywhere else (and everywhere else is getting worse every day).

[QUOTE=Daddy07]Yeah, I'm waiting for OTH or someone else to convince me that somewhere else is better, all things considered -- especially the easy availablility of great sex.[/QUOTE]
So many places fit in that category (easy availability of great sex), and by the time I am ready to hang my hat, I won't even remember what sex is :(
So it is not really one of the important criteria.

Still looking for Nirvana............

[QUOTE=1Ball]well, I am looking ofr a place to hang my hat, and so far have come up empty handed. Suggestions? Warm, good healthcare, value for money, good food, good diving, affordable....

Any thoughts?[/QUOTE]

Check out Okinawa, Japan

Warm - yes, subtropical climate (typhoons come often though)
Healthcare - excellent, as long as you pay, not an arm and a leg though
Value for money - yes, you know that
Good food - yes, you know this too
Good diving - yes, beautiful seas, beautiful islands
Affordable - if you can afford BKK at frang standard, then yes.
People - trust worthy, no frang prices,
Mongering - refer to Japan threads

Find a job at US base or Uni there to cover daily living cost.

(Don't tell anyone)

[QUOTE=Daddy07]Yeah, I'm waiting for OTH or someone else to convince me that somewhere else is better, all things considered -- especially the easy availablility of great sex.[/QUOTE]

Well, obviously we each have a different perspective. You're living in lala-land and have no worries except who'll you screw next.

I, on the other hand work for a living. And, in that regard this place is a shit-hole. The working conditions suck, the salaries suck and most of all, the Thais with whom and for whom one has to work suck, Big Time!

If I manage to be able to retire, I'll probably do it here when I have a carefree life like you.

But until then, there are many better places to hang one's hat in order to make a decent living, have a decent life and be treated with the respect, one deserves.

#1 on my list is the UAE.

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]
But, I really have had enough of Thais and Thailand. Maybe being surrounded by the absolutely disgusting HiSo crowd for the last 3 years has done me in. Fortunately, my GF has had her eyes opened to the world at large and now feels as I do. She often complains about how narrow, small, bigoted and selfish Thais are. And lest someone says she got this from me, I've always been very careful not to express negative opinions about anything Thai to her. So I was surprised when she came to the decision on her own that she doesn't like it here anymore and wants to leave.


All I know us that it used to be fun here and now it isn't.[/QUOTE]

I understand having enough of Thai's and Thailand, especially the HiSo kind. But screw them! It's the middle class Thais that I know and respect so much. My wife, like your GF also decided she's had enough of Thailand.

Now, I am very curious, OTH. Why on earth UAE? A muslim country would be my last choice.

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]...If I manage to be able to retire, I'll probably do it here when I have a carefree life like you...[/QUOTE]

There, he said it … THAILAND – ESPECIALLY THE PROVINCE OF LALA LAND WHERE I AM RIGHT NOW -- IS THE BEST PLACE TO LIVE IF ONE WANTS THE CAREFREE LIFE OF A HAPPY SEX MONGER!!! That’s it! Discussion closed. Stick a fork in the argument, it’s done. The best value, all things considered, is right here in Thailand. Other places have their good points, but Thailand has it all. OTH is going to retire here as soon as he can afford the carefree life, and if it’s good enough for him, it’s good enough for me.

Hey, I agree about all the negative aspects of having to work for Thais. I wouldn’t want to do it either. Wouldn’t particularly want to work for Arabs either, though, or anyone else for that matter, having been my own boss all my adult life; and I sure as hell wouldn’t want to live and work in a place where my life might be governed by Sharia law, or some such mindless system like that. Isn’t the UAE one of those horrible places where girls can’t be seen on the streets talking to a man not her relative, lest she risk being whipped in public? Is your girlfriend, who you say now also despises Thailand going to go with you? She had better, or OTH ain’t gonna get any pussy. Are you sure you know what you’re doing? :)

[QUOTE=1Ball]well, I am looking ofr a place to hang my hat, and so far have come up empty handed. Suggestions? Warm, good healthcare, value for money, good food, good diving, affordable....

Any thoughts?[/QUOTE]No question, [b]Livingstone's Lodge[/b]!!!

Emmy takes over the healthcare part.


Giotto

[QUOTE=Oosik1]Now, I am very curious, OTH. Why on earth UAE? A muslim country would be my last choice.[/QUOTE]


UAE isn't that bad. It's fairly modern, Westernized and moderate. Only bad thing, besides the heat, humidity and dust, are the visitors from a certain neignboring country that flock to Abu Dahbi on Thursday night to party, chase women and act like idiots. But, wait... that also happen on Sukhumvit Soi-3? As for women there are a lot of Phlippers...

[QUOTE=Oosik1]Now, I am very curious, OTH. Why on earth UAE? A muslim country would be my last choice.[/QUOTE]

In a word, MONEY! The best Expat packages in the world. I've known several people who've gone there on a 3 year contract and saved $100,000.

It isn't Saudi Arabia for gawd's sake. There are plenty of hookers. Read the forum. I've been to Dubai and it's very modern and cosmopolitan. The locals only make up about 25% of the population. There are people from all over, including a large population of Filipinas.

Piper 1 swears by the place.


Daddy07

Yes, if I get a job there, my GF will be going with me, after we get married.

It's true that I may retire here, preferably in Hua Hin or Pranburi. It's unlikely I'd ever retire to Pattaya, although I have considered it. That's not really Thailand (which could actually be a good thing, I suppose). But, there are too many low-lifes on both sides of the equation which make it less than desirable (not meaning you, of course :)). I will say, though that's it's the most reasonably priced place to live around, which is an attraction. Condo prices there are at least bordering on sane. You can still get something for a million baht or even less, in some cases. That wouldn't get you a cardboard box in Hua Hin, or anything at all in BKK, unless you want to live way out in Bagna near the airport.

Anyway, Nirvana is anywhere you find that makes you happy. Reading your posts, it's obvious that you've found yours.

It's more than money. It's all about enjoying life wherever you are. I make a good living in Dubai, but I could make at least the same or more in the west. Dubai is a crazy place - I love it.

Oosik - my wife is Moslem (and cute) and I'm athiest (and not so cute). UAE/Dubai is not as conservative as you think.

According to a report written by Mercer consulting, published by Business Week, the best places to live in the world are

1. Zurich
2. Geneva and Vienna (tie)
4. Vancouver
5. Aukland NZ
6. Dusseldorf
7. Munich and Frankfurt (tie)
9. Bern
10. Sydney

Seems like you folks in Switzerland and Germany have already found your Nirvana. ;) What I find interesting is 8 out of 10 are cold climates (vs tropical or sub tropical), and Vancouver is known for it's bad weather.

Does this mean that Harare, Riyadh, or Kuwait city are not on the list ?

On a serious note, I often wonder why places like Zanzibar, Mauritius, Bali, Santorini, Na Trang, or even Penang, etc, never make it on a list of best places to live.....

[QUOTE=Piper1]It's more than money. It's all about enjoying life wherever you are. I make a good living in Dubai, but I could make at least the same or more in the west. Dubai is a crazy place - I love it.

Oosik - my wife is Moslem (and cute) and I'm athiest (and not so cute). UAE/Dubai is not as conservative as you think.[/QUOTE]
Your wife is not cute Piper, she is sssssssssssmokin hot.
:p

[QUOTE=1Ball]Seems like you folks in Switzerland and Germany have already found your Nirvana. ;) What I find interesting is 8 out of 10 are cold climates (vs tropical or sub tropical), and Vancouver is known for it's bad weather.[/QUOTE]

These reports are very relative. What criterias did they use to score?
Sure most the cities in the top 10 are safe, but also very expensive and not so great to visit IMHO. It's all a matter of what one looks for when deciding which city's (or country) is best. We all have different tastes adn opinions (thank fuck for that, LOL).

As an example, I can tell you I will never again live in a muslim country (lived in North Africa for a year), I have my reasons that others might not share but on the other hand I really see myself going back to the USA (I like the life there).

[QUOTE=1Ball]According to a report written by Mercer consulting, published by Business Week, the best places to live in the world are

1. Zurich
2. Geneva and Vienna (tie)
4. Vancouver
5. Aukland NZ
6. Dusseldorf
7. Munich and Frankfurt (tie)
9. Bern
10. Sydney

Seems like you folks in Switzerland and Germany have already found your Nirvana. ;) What I find interesting is 8 out of 10 are cold climates (vs tropical or sub tropical), and Vancouver is known for it's bad weather.

Does this mean that Harare, Riyadh, or Kuwait city are not on the list ?

On a serious note, I often wonder why places like Zanzibar, Mauritius, Bali, Santorini, Na Trang, or even Penang, etc, never make it on a list of best places to live.....[/QUOTE]


Eight of these places are the most expensive in the world to live. I just returned from Geneva last week and a cup of coffee at Starbucks was 300 baht. Dinner was 2,000. Not to mention paying 40% of your income in taxes plus VAT on everything. No place for retirement.

Now, Sydney is paradise. What a great city!

I hope this is not boring too many of you.

I have to agree that the list I posted does not appeal to me one bit.

so, where? Even I have never been there, I am interested in checking out the Seychelles.....

[QUOTE=1Ball]so, where? Even I have never been there, I am interested in checking out the Seychelles.....[/QUOTE]

I worked there for a while... It was one of those places that was nice to visit but I couldn't see me living there.

[QUOTE=Retired Army]Eight of these places are the most expensive in the world to live. I just returned from Geneva last week and a cup of coffee at Starbucks was 300 baht. Dinner was 2,000. Not to mention paying 40% of your income in taxes plus VAT on everything. No place for retirement.

Now, Sydney is paradise. What a great city![/QUOTE]
Sexually, Sydney might be the best city of Aus, but its still not up there as a mongering destination. Even a 30 min quickie would be expensive and the white working girls are mostly hopeless. There is a good Asian population in Sydney however. The traffic isn't the best either but better than BKK (would not be hard).

Melbourne is actually considered the more livable city but is a bit too cold. Retirees prefer to head north to sunny Queensland.

For playing up, I don't bother with Aus any more. Thailand, Germany, and many more are way better for quality to price ratios.

Aussie Mick

[QUOTE=Mick Licker]Sexually, Sydney might be the best city of Aus, but its still not up there as a mongering destination. Even a 30 min quickie would be expensive and the white working girls are mostly hopeless. There is a good Asian population in Sydney however. The traffic isn't the best either but better than BKK (would not be hard).

Melbourne is actually considered the more livable city but is a bit too cold. Retirees prefer to head north to sunny Queensland.

For playing up, I don't bother with Aus any more. Thailand, Germany, and many more are way better for quality to price ratios.

Aussie Mick[/QUOTE]

Didn't go for mongering, why would someone living in BKK go to SYD for sex. Just didn't make sense. For several years I stayed on Oxford street where there was quite a bit of wierd shit.

As for Germany, I see a lot of really good looking German girls in Frankfurt, but they just don't turn me on like Asian chicks. Must be pretty universal that Asian girls are the hottest in the world because the German guys also love them and there are many in Germany. Thais and Philippinos mostly, but some Chinese and Vietnamese. They own the Asian food stores and restaurants.

[QUOTE=Retired Army]Didn't go for mongering, why would someone living in BKK go to SYD for sex. Just didn't make sense. For several years I stayed on Oxford street where there was quite a bit of wierd shit.

As for Germany, I see a lot of really good looking German girls in Frankfurt, but they just don't turn me on like Asian chicks. Must be pretty universal that Asian girls are the hottest in the world because the German guys also love them and there are many in Germany. Thais and Philippinos mostly, but some Chinese and Vietnamese. They own the Asian food stores and restaurants.[/QUOTE]
Yes we agree that Sydney is not the best place to go for sex. Its good in other ways.

I agree that Asians are hot but so are South American, West Indies, Mauritians and so on.
Frankfurt has girls from everywhere, including Dominica, Colombia, Brazil, Russia, Spain, Ukraine, Romania, Czech, Poland, Thailand, China, etc. Even a few German girls. A complete smorgasboard.

I have had at least 5 Thai girls in Germany, but I always managed to find more spectacular girls from somewhere else. A German, a Russian, a Romanian, a Czech/Scot, a Jamaican, a Dominican and a Greek/German was the best dream girl of all.

But the Russian girls I see in BKK are just not up to the standard in Frankfurt. I prefer to be in Thailand for Thai girls most of the time and for long-time.
Realistically a pretty Thai girl will want an older western man for "long time" but hot young European dream girl will not. Of course Thailand is much cheaper.

Lately, while out getting a little on the side, I've run into more than a couple of boring "starfish. " As I'm not a regular monger, and I have to be somewhat discrete with my occasional plying, sometimes I end up in places I have not been before, or my preferred girl is not working that day so I often follow the.sans advice.

I know it's not easy being a sex worker servicing middle aged farang and Japanese, but these girls make more in an hour or two than a lot of women make in a week.

My question is: What's with these girls who basically do nothing once they get their kit off? You think being sex workers they'd put a little effort into it for a tip maybe (or a repeat performance)? How do they get their jobs if they're almost useless at what they do? Comments?

What about the waitress who performs poorly, spilling your drink/taking too long to service you, or the Doctor who operate on the wrong limb? Incompetence and poor performance can be found in any profession. There will always be good and bad performers, it’s a part of life not restricted to working girls.

hey Mick - the dyevs in Thailand are there because they are either on holiday (working holiday) or couldn't make it in Russia. There seem to be a lot Uzbeks around Pattaya

[QUOTE=Fon Tok]My question is: What's with these girls who basically do nothing once they get their kit off? You think being sex workers they'd put a little effort into it for a tip maybe (or a repeat performance)? How do they get their jobs if they're almost useless at what they do? Comments?[/QUOTE]

We have only ourselves to blame for that one. If the girl can get away with doing nothing adn still getting the same amount of money than if she would put great efforts, why woudn't she try? you can't blame her for trying.
Blame the idiots that still pay these girls for doing nothing.
If the girl does not perform, send her out with only a fraction of the amount and look for another girl.

[QUOTE=Dinghy]hey Mick - the dyevs in Thailand are there because they are either on holiday (working holiday) or couldn't make it in Russia. There seem to be a lot Uzbeks around Pattaya[/QUOTE]
The "dyevs"?

I guess the uglier Russians, Uzbeks, Kazaks etc. are in Thailand. I didn't see many of the same quality seen in Europe.

BTW I hear that many of these girls in Thailand do bareback for an extra fee. So sounds too risky to me.
I prefer higher class P4P who supposedly refuse bareback.
But its hard to tell one from the other.

[QUOTE=Mick Licker]BTW I hear that many of these girls in Thailand do bareback for an extra fee. So sounds too risky to me.
I prefer higher class P4P who supposedly refuse bareback.
But its hard to tell one from the other.[/QUOTE]

I can confirm that the one Russian I had in Bangkok allowed bareback, but merely because I insisted. The fee was the same 1,000 baht short time we had originally agreed upon. And yes, at that price, she wasn't so enjoyable to look at (or fuck for that matter). One of those blowzy bags from Coffee World at Soi 7/1.

dyev - "dyevochka" - the Russian word for "girl"

I hope I am allowed to do this, but I wanted to share an excellent article which helps to explain what many Thai women, and American women, have asked me. I refer to: [url]www.fredoneverything.net/AsianWomen[/url]

I hate feminists. The straw that broke the back of my marriage had its roots in feminism. It is my hot button issue. So, when I read this, I thought that this is a guy who not only has accomplished a good analysis of feminism, but has done a good job of writing it down.

Sorry, Jackson, if I shouldn't be referring to another web site.

[QUOTE=Oosik1]I hope I am allowed to do this, but I wanted to share an excellent article which helps to explain what many Thai women, and American women, have asked me. I refer to: [url]www.fredoneverything.net/AsianWomen[/url]

I hate feminists. The straw that broke the back of my marriage had its roots in feminism. It is my hot button issue. So, when I read this, I thought that this is a guy who not only has accomplished a good analysis of feminism, but has done a good job of writing it down.

Sorry, Jackson, if I shouldn't be referring to another web site.[/QUOTE]

Great Article, Thanks for sharing it

[QUOTE=Born Loser 5]The power english language holds amoung people in Asian society is magical..everything is forgotten about your background..the moment you speak english :)[/QUOTE]As a rich P4P guy, I want a lady who speaks as little of my home language as possible. That's one reason I cum to LOS. Don't care to listen to women's chatter, let alone life stories, as I have with night ladies in Canada. Will bring duct tape if necessary! LOL!

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]Thais are faced with pressure to compete regionally and globally and simply can't. For example, the Vietnamese (with a similar climate and culture), but having survived decades of war, kick the shit out of the Thais on all levels.[/QUOTE]Not in P4P, that's for sure.

There the Thai kick all other Asian cuntry's butts bigtime.

[QUOTE=Giotto]The girls stop working and agree to a monthly budget which is usually much lower than their usual income from the bar. They "give it a chance", 15 - 20 k a month is enough (still a lot compared to the income levels here in Thailand), instead of 50 k - 75 k they had before (depending on their looks, behavior, success with customers). [/QUOTE]Had a girl in BKK earlier this year, she got 100K+ in a month & kept working, and we both knew it & were both accepting of that. She knew I took other P4P ladies, no problem. Seemed quite content with her 100K, obviously. Would be happy to hook up with her again next trip. Good looks, say 8 out of 10, likewise with attitude and service.

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]1. But, I decided to just let her run with the lie, because she said it with such amazing conviction, that I'm sure it is exactly how she remembered it and what's worse it was so convincing that I started to doubt my own belief in the truth - LOL.

2. Anyway, all of this contributes to the that "fuzzy fringe"..... OK, now I'm just waiting for some wag to make a joke about the "fuzzy fringe" - ah there - hopefully I've pre-empted it. :D[/QUOTE]

1. You started to doubt, no doubt because at your age, post 50,
Alzheimeir's has set in, and she was telling the truth!

2. Evidently ISG is the only thing keeping you sane in LOS, and why you haven't left there long ago, giving you a connection with the real world.

Re #2 be sure to send Jackson an extra something with your next contribution. And in light of #1, make a note now to remind yourself to do so.

LOL!

This guy Fred Reed is an asshat and can't write worth shit.

[QUOTE=Dickhead]This guy Fred Reed is an asshat and can't write worth shit.[/QUOTE]
I couldn't possibly fail to disagree with you not less.

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]But, seriously, unless you've branched out into the general population, now that you've been in Pattaya awhile, the term "Daddy" doesn't really apply in a P4P scenario. It really only works in a situation with an older guy and a young, non-P4P girl, often in a business (or in my case) educational environment.

The first time I ever encountered this was 11 years ago when I first moved here and was working for a Thai company. After awhile, a girl in the office asked if they could call my mate, who was 54 at the time, "Daddy". He was a real old Thai hand, having been here since the 70s. He was quite excited about this and gave me the low-down on what "Daddy" really meant. I've since discovered for myself that he was quite right. It may sound slightly unsavory to outsiders. But, it carries a certain cache with women, if they can call you "Daddy" and the added element is that you then call them "Baby". I suppose it's all very childish. But, it works for me. ;)[/QUOTE]Last year I was surprised to have one of my regular P4P girls call me Daddy. It left me wondering what she meant, that I was old enough to be her father, or providing for her {& her family} in a way that a father would {even though any monies she recieved from me were earned}. That this term as used by her had any sexual connotation makes no sense, as fathers do not normally have sex with those who call them such. Nevertheless we often engaged in sex acts, but usually not extremely lewd. LOL

Unlike your male "mate" who was "quite excited" at the prospect of a "girl in the office" wanting to call him "Daddy", my feeling with the P4P TG was quite the opposite! Also unlike your story, she did not request to call me that. If I recall it was said in a joking way, like she would sometimes say "I love you" in the middle of a BJ.

[QUOTE=Retired Army]OTH is absolutely spot-on with this post. It's not easy to break into Thai culture and meet really decent non-P4P Thai woman; but, it's much more satisfying once you do. I was able to do it after a couple of years and I have never regreted the decision. Bar girls get very boring quickly.

RA[/QUOTE]Maybe for you & OTH they get boring.

For me P4P ladies equals sex, sex & more sex which equals never boring.

But being stuck with one woman all the time might mean boring sex, besides numerous other negatives, including this "relationship" thing OTH worships & can't stop yapping about. He must have a really low sex drive & watch loads of chick flicks!

[QUOTE=Dickhead]This guy Fred Reed is an asshat and can't write worth shit.[/QUOTE]

I think Dickhead might be a closet feminist.

[QUOTE=Dinghy]dyev - "dyevochka" - the Russian word for "girl"[/QUOTE]
Ah yes, I have heard this word on "The Rosetta Stone" Russian 101, but the abbreviation was a bit too much for a mere Thai monger.

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]Good one.

But, seriously, unless you've branched out into the general population, now that you've been in Pattaya awhile, the term "Daddy" doesn't really apply in a P4P scenario. It really only works in a situation with an older guy and a young, non-P4P girl, often in a business (or in my case) educational environment.

The first time I ever encountered this was 11 years ago when I first moved here and was working for a Thai company. After awhile, a girl in the office asked if they could call my mate, who was 54 at the time, "Daddy". He was a real old Thai hand, having been here since the 70s. He was quite excited about this and gave me the low-down on what "Daddy" really meant. I've since discovered for myself that he was quite right. It may sound slightly unsavory to outsiders. But, it carries a certain cache with women, if they can call you "Daddy" and the added element is that you then call them "Baby". I suppose it's all very childish. But, it works for me. ;)[/QUOTE]
OTH,

Are you referring to english words "daddy" and "baby" or are you translating from Thai "Phor" (or perhaps "Pa-pa") to "daddy".

Now "baby" strictly is "tharok" (or "dek tharok" or "dek orn") in Thai but I doubt that this word would be used? "luuk" (child/daugther) maybe?

Anyway my main point is that "daddy" sounds a bit strange in English (to me) where "phor" or "pa-pa" (or "pa" Chinese style) sounds quite natural in Thai.
I usually get called "loong" Mick (Uncle Mick) by younger girls or their children.

[QUOTE=Fon Tok]Lately, while out getting a little on the side, I've run into more than a couple of boring "starfish. " As I'm not a regular monger, and I have to be somewhat discrete with my occasional plying, sometimes I end up in places I have not been before, or my preferred girl is not working that day so I often follow the.sans advice.

I know it's not easy being a sex worker servicing middle aged farang and Japanese, but these girls make more in an hour or two than a lot of women make in a week.

My question is: What's with these girls who basically do nothing once they get their kit off? You think being sex workers they'd put a little effort into it for a tip maybe (or a repeat performance)? How do they get their jobs if they're almost useless at what they do? ot?[/QuOTE]
Ask Giotto, he employs some of them.

[quote=petemcc]ask giotto, he employs some of them.[/quote]
do i detect some sour grapes here? if this is the case, possibly some pre-sports bar "sex-ercising" should me mandatory for the fresh young lassies from isaan!

fortunately, not all thai women are starfishes, or many of us would not bother chasing them with our shrinking wallets readily in hand.

but for the old cowboys out there in isg land, a limp warm body with a couple pair of wet lips might be just enough to crack a smile once in awhile!

So... came back to BKK after being gone for 10 whole days and walked into the TGF's apartment (which pretty much I paid for everything inside that place) where we stay and low and behold there were three bridal magazines sitting on the new work desk I just bought 10 days ago.....

Wonder what all this could mean? ;) So much for her conversations about how she doesn't want marriage.

Now in Hua Hin after two days in BKK... so so so so so nice to get away from the damn city....

[QUOTE=Petemcc]Ask Giotto, he employs some of them.[/QUOTE]

Whole new stable right now.... and from the show they were putting on Sat night I'd say there are very few starfish around right now.

[QUOTE=Tansak KTV]Whole new stable right now.... and from the show they were putting on Sat night I'd say there are very few starfish around right now.[/QUOTE]
If last Monday and Tuesday is an indication, I would say you are mistaken. I have my own views which I do not intend to post as it will cause the biggest war since Iraq, suffice it to say Livingstones does not match my high standards of P4P. The girls' attitudes can be summarised using the following words placed into a sentence.
stink, up themselves doesn't so far, primadonnas the are think they their shit.

[QUOTE=Tansak KTV]Whole new stable right now.... and from the show they were putting on Sat night I'd say there are very few starfish around right now.[/QUOTE]

We all meet starfish on occasions, however:
I once had a quite good time with a girl that another fellow ISG monger complained was incredibly bad.
However she wasn't good enough to make me desperate for her. I would say just average.

It depends on your attitude and how the girls reacts to you and whether she likes you, whether you scare her (agressive or dick too big), whether you have the right chemistry, etc.
I get incredibly turned off by bossy girls.

Some guys like to be serviced and have the girl do everything. I am more of a doer, so if the girl is not very wild it doesn't matter as long as she is willing to let herself go, and try to enjoy it at least.
Some girls are inexperienced and don't know how to do BJs. I can forgive this. No BJ is better than a really bad one. However when girls have little experience, we should commence their training I feel. Hard if they little English though. I have had a couple of girls so in-experienced that they may as well have been virgins. Still got them to orgasm though.

Usually I find the worst girls are those with plenty of experience and have no interest in sex nor pleasing the guy any longer and just wanting it to be over in a hurry.

[QUOTE=Mick Licker]We all meet starfish on occasions, however:
I once had a quite good time with a girl that another fellow ISG monger complained was incredibly bad.
However she wasn't good enough to make me desperate for her. I would say just average.

It depends on your attitude and how the girls reacts to you and whether she likes you, whether you scare her (agressive or dick too big), whether you have the right chemistry, etc.
I get incredibly turned off by bossy girls.

Some guys like to be serviced and have the girl do everything. I am more of a doer, so if the girl is not very wild it doesn't matter as long as she is willing to let herself go, and try to enjoy it at least.
Some girls are inexperienced and don't know how to do BJs. I can forgive this. No BJ is better than a really bad one. However when girls have little experience, we should commence their training I feel. Hard if they little English though. I have had a couple of girls so in-experienced that they may as well have been virgins. Still got them to orgasm though.

Usually I find the worst girls are those with plenty of experience and have no interest in sex nor pleasing the guy any longer and just wanting it to be over in a hurry.[/QUOTE]

I am very into interaction, and I treat girls as I would treat my wife or girlfriend, which is well, and with respect. However I am also a customer, not a charity, and I expect a certain amount of customer service, even if it is acting. I don't think that is too much to ask.

[QUOTE=Tansak KTV]So... came back to BKK after being gone for 10 whole days and walked into the TGF's apartment (which pretty much I paid for everything inside that place) where we stay and low and behold there were three bridal magazines sitting on the new work desk I just bought 10 days ago.....
[/QUOTE]
I do remember mentionning this to you a few months ago, Tansak. When is the blessed event?

Congratulations !!!!

[QUOTE=Tansak KTV]So... came back to BKK after being gone for 10 whole days and walked into the TGF's apartment (which pretty much I paid for everything inside that place) where we stay and low and behold there were three bridal magazines sitting on the new work desk I just bought 10 days ago.....

Wonder what all this could mean? ;) So much for her conversations about how she doesn't want marriage...[/QUOTE]

Perhaps she is marrying someone else.

[QUOTE=Petemcc]I am very into interaction, and I treat girls as I would treat my wife or girlfriend, which is well, and with respect. However I am also a customer, not a charity, and I expect a certain amount of customer service, even if it is acting. I don't think that is too much to ask.[/QUOTE]

If this doesn't work get a tazer. That really gets them going.

[QUOTE=Retired Army]If this doesn't work get a tazer. That really gets them going.[/QUOTE]
I am rolling on the floor thinking of RA chasing a TG around the room with a tazer in his hand, shouting "come here, my lovely, this will invigorate you" :D

Classic !

[QUOTE=Retired Army]Perhaps she is marrying someone else.[/QUOTE]

That could make my life a whole lot easier if that was the case. Unfortunately I doubt that is the plan.

[QUOTE=1Ball]I do remember mentionning this to you a few months ago, Tansak. When is the blessed event?

Congratulations !!!![/QUOTE]

Probably in Bali with you, make it a dual wedding. ;)

Guys, you don't need money to have sex anymore. By scamming girls into giving you sex, you can get free sex for the rest of your life and not spend another satang on a hooker again. I have found a way to scam woman into giving me sex every time. Here's how I do it.

First, forget about the hooker scene in Thailand. You need to go after non-pro Thai women. 'Good (sortof) girls' who are just looking for some cash on the side. What I will do is scour dating sites, shopping malls, and the streets of Thailand offering girls a few thousand baht for the privelege of having sex with me. Most girls will turn your offer down, but many many will take you up on your offer, even virgin good girls.

You have sex. When the time comes for her to leave and you to pay up, you simply make up an excuse to get her out of the room and out of your life. Without paying of course. I have found that the best excuses to dump girls is the 'I'm going to the atm and I'll be right back excuse'. Of course you never come back and you just got laid for free.

The girls, being naive average girls and with nobody to back them up, cannot do anything about it. Using this technique I have managed to avoid paying for sex in Thailand. To hell with the gogos and bars. So, why pay when you can get it for free?

Cheap Meat

[QUOTE=1Ball]I do remember mentionning this to you a few months ago, Tansak. When is the blessed event?

Congratulations !!!![/QUOTE]

Went from wedding to knives in a hurry over here 1ball... maybe bali won't work for the wedding...

[QUOTE=Tansak KTV]Went from wedding to knives in a hurry over here 1ball... maybe bali won't work for the wedding...[/QUOTE]
OK Tansak, you have to spill the beans, enquiring minds want to know.
Happily esconsced in my home away from home, Bali, knowing things will change for you, and we will see you here in August; the GF wants to see how much skinnier you are, than the last time she saw you. Thanks God she likes a bit of meat on my bones !!!

[QUOTE=1Ball]OK Tansak, you have to spill the beans, enquiring minds want to know.
Happily esconsced in my home away from home, Bali, knowing things will change for you, and we will see you here in August; the GF wants to see how much skinnier you are, than the last time she saw you. Thanks God she likes a bit of meat on my bones !!![/QUOTE]

Oh I think I'm down about 100 lbs right now since Jan. Lets just say that my tailor hates that they give me free alterations for life and the girls think I am a a different person, they don't believe I am the same guy. So your GF won't have a clue who I am.

Oh the knives were not at my dick they were at her and her not wanting me to leave the apartment but she calling others and telling them she's afraid and she wants to die etc... It is nice that she is learning what buttons not to push but it was a long night with family, threats of police, threats of suicide, family calling in ex pat guys married into the family to come over to get me etc... Had family from all over come running into town all night long... welcome to the family huh ;)

Basically it was an SMS that started off a fight that escalated into a heated battle. Her slow english, my poor english, my culture vs. thai culture etc... went through the roof so we had about 18 hours of a good drag out where she was blocking the apartment door not letting me out etc... We'll see where it goes from here but the make up sex is always great.

I just sold that screenplay to a thai soap opera, Tansak, thanks, a bit of walking around money ;)

All joking aside, come on down alone in August, and leave the little lady alone at home. We will fix you up with a nice Indo girl, who doesn't know anything about ducks and knives, and will treat you like the King you are. You'll forget about the other one right quick ! :D

[QUOTE=1Ball]I just sold that screenplay to a thai soap opera, Tansak, thanks, a bit of walking around money ;)

All joking aside, come on down alone in August, and leave the little lady alone at home. We will fix you up with a nice Indo girl, who doesn't know anything about ducks and knives, and will treat you like the King you are. You'll forget about the other one right quick ! :D[/QUOTE]

Maybe you haven't met Tansak's better half. I don't she is easily forgettable. I'm jealous, for one. :(

Several months ago, I met a very lovely girl dancing at Sisters a-go-go. It felt like love at first sight. We made eye contact. She smiled so sweetly. I winked and smiled back. Soon she was sitting next to me. We laughed and joked. She touched me so softly. She is so tiny; so feminine. Her smile is radiant; her figure so beautiful. I liked every thing about her – beautiful face, outstanding body, charming personality -- and she speaks pretty good English too.

She asked me to bar fine her. I agreed after she said she liked oral sex. Our first session was nice. I enjoyed licking her soft bald pussy until she climaxed. Her BBBJ technique is mediocre at best, but her face is so pretty she had no trouble at all getting me off. The chemistry was great – wonderful GFE. She gave me her number and became a regular.

When she complained of no customers at Sisters, I suggested she go work at Super Baby. She had no trouble getting that job. When low season came and she complained again about the lack of customers at Super Baby, I suggested another bar that I knew had many customers, and she got that job too. She seemed very grateful for my help. I was happy for her.

Twice a week she always sent me an SMS saying: “How are you, Daddy? I miss you so much.” How sweet. I always invited her to come see me before work for another nice session, and I would give her 1100 baht. Now and then I would bar fine her for 600 baht, give her 1000 after the session, and she was always happy.

Once, she admired a bedside clock in my room, joking that I give it to her. Two weeks later I found another one just like it and presented it to her as we lay in bed. She squealed with delight over the simple gift. Our sessions, though always nice, remained mostly the same without variation. Her BBBJ’s remained mediocre. She didn’t want to change the routine. I was getting bored.

Two weeks ago she sent me another “I miss you so much” message, and I replied that I would see her soon. I went to her bar and bought her a drink. She whined about not having a customer for 14 days. I invited her to come see me the next day. She said: “I don’t know.” I said OK. Then she started bitching at me about not bar fining her. “My friend ask me why he (me) not pay bar for you,” and on and on. I told her straight out that I wanted her to come see me, but I wasn’t going to bar fine her. She stomped off leaving her untouched drink on the table.

A few days later I bought her another drink and she stomped off again after the same conversation. This time I called softly after her: “I don’t want to see you again.”

It’s my favorite bar so I still go there a lot. Now she won’t look at me. She walked right past me once having to squeeze past a table full of customers so that her face was six inches away from mine, but she would not look up at me. She knew I was there. I thought to myself: this girl cares more about her friend’s opinion of her than the 2200 baht I was giving her every week. If she really didn’t care about that, she would look at me and smile, but apparently she does care and she’s not happy. Of course, if she gives in to me she will lose face with her friend. I was touched.

So long, little sweetheart. It was great while it lasted, but you demanded a little too much.

Time to move on to the next one. And the next, and the next.

Thai girls. I love them, but will never understand them.

[QUOTE=Daddy07]Time to move on to the next one. And the next, and the next.

Thai girls. I love them, but will never understand them.[/QUOTE]

Maybe time to move to regular (non P4P) girls? you're a local so it's not hard ;)

[QUOTE=NicFrenchy]Maybe time to move to regular (non P4P) girls? you're a local so it's not hard ;)[/QUOTE]

Didin't we already have a discussion awhile ago about the insanity of Thai women?

Anyway, while P4P, especially BGs have a rather extreme and unique form or erratic and bizarre behaviour patterns, I don't think they have a monopoly on such behaviour.

I've known enough regular TGs to confidently say that nutty behaviour is quite endemic throughout the whole Thai female population.

[QUOTE=NicFrenchy]Maybe time to move to regular (non P4P) girls? you're a local so it's not hard ;)[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I did that a few months ago and found that it’s far more hassle than p4p.

Wait and see, Nic. Some day it might catch up with you. A certain Italian ‘sponsor’ might come after you with a knife. :D

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]Didin't we already have a discussion awhile ago about the insanity of Thai women? ... [/QUOTE]

Yes, we did, and this is part of a continuing saga, which is the purpose of this thread.

Despite all the insanity, these girls are more than worth the trouble as long as the relationships are kept at arms length. I’ve already found a new regular – a 19 year old angel.

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]Didin't we already have a discussion awhile ago about the insanity of Thai women?

Anyway, while P4P, especially BGs have a rather extreme and unique form or erratic and bizarre behaviour patterns, I don't think they have a monopoly on such behaviour.

I've known enough regular TGs to confidently say that nutty behaviour is quite endemic throughout the whole Thai female population.[/QUOTE]

Appreciated, but we're not looking for a wife here are we? Well, I for sure am not. Just a nice horizontal sport partner or a "gig" LOL

[QUOTE=Daddy07]Wait and see, Nic. Some day it might catch up with you. A certain Italian ‘sponsor’ might come after you with a knife. :D[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I know LOL.. dumb guys usually react like that.
In this case, who is to blame? me? or the girl he sends money to?
For what it's worth, if he is dumb enough to think that sponsoring a girl from overseas is going to make her stay faithful... especially when she is young and beautiful and he is old. By the way, beside me, she also fucks another 2 thai guys, one that is a gig and the other is the Official Brother (in the eyes of the Sponsor).

OTH, I have far less experience than you in regards to thai girls, the only 2 long term relationship I have had with non P4P girls ended because it was too much drama for me to handle (screening of cellphone numbers and sms, examination of clothes and other stuff like that).
I am now fully satisfied with the "gig" like relationship... no strings attached, just call each other and meet, go out, have fun and have sex.

[QUOTE=NicFrenchy]
OTH, I have far less experience than you in regards to thai girls, the only 2 long term relationship I have had with non P4P girls ended because it was too much drama for me to handle (screening of cellphone numbers and sms, examination of clothes and other stuff like that).[/QUOTE]

Well, you haven't been here as long as I have and you're 20-some years younger. You still have plenty of time to experience the whole gamut of relationships. :)

A lot of Thai women model their behaviour after the histrionics they see displayed in Thai lakorn on TV. But, I've also seen Farang men display just as extreme jealous behaviour towards Thai women. Relationships here are often emotionally charged at both ends.

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]Anyway, while P4P, especially BGs have a rather extreme and unique form or erratic and bizarre behaviour patterns, I don't think they have a monopoly on such behaviour.

I've known enough regular TGs to confidently say that nutty behaviour is quite endemic throughout the whole Thai female population.[/QUOTE]

Add yaa baa, often heavy alcohol consumption, and badly damaged self image ("I am bad girl"- girl who has gone of the deep end socially) to a normal Thai/Isaan girl (i.e., neurotic, emotionally puerile female whose role models are the "good girls" on Thai soaps) and you get a P4P-BG.

Thai women (and it must be added, men) are very good at maintaining self-control and laughing things off/burying head in sand up to the point at which they lose control utterly (could possibly explain the high murder rate amongst such seemingly gentle people). I'm guessing that in a Thai/Thai relationship both parties are good at detecting the "I'm about to blow a gasket" signs, but you, Mr. "Come On Lady, Stop Acting Childish" Farang, are likely to keep pushing the wrong buttons merely by acting all reasonable and rational in the face of extreme silliness, petty jealousy, and baseless suspicion; and lo and behold, you're faced with a meltdown requiring Tasers and straightjackets. And from her perspective you likely gave her no choice but to act that way.

Just remember that your Thai girl is in terms of emotional response and expectations living on what might as well be another planet (in the case of a BG, the planet is likely wobbling on its axis). You might develop an intellectual understanding that allows you to predict behavior, but unless you were raised here you will never really understand it (something to be grateful for, I think).

[QUOTE=NicFrenchy]Yeah, I know LOL.. dumb guys usually react like that.
In this case, who is to blame? me? or the girl he sends money to?
For what it's worth, if he is dumb enough to think that sponsoring a girl from overseas is going to make her stay faithful... especially when she is young and beautiful and he is old. By the way, beside me, she also fucks another 2 thai guys, one that is a gig and the other is the Official Brother (in the eyes of the Sponsor)...[/QUOTE]

That poor, poor, pathetic bastard.

Give him my condolances when he finally catches up with you, OK? :D

[QUOTE=Sanook D]

Just remember that your Thai girl is in terms of emotional response and expectations living on what might as well be another planet.[/QUOTE]


Try having a Thai woman for a boss, if you want to experience a over-rought and melodramatic work environment. It's great fun. :(

I have a regular who is always hitting me up for extra - very annoying. However the sex is great so I put up with it, while never giving in to any large extent. Sometimes she is so petulant it ruins the sex, other times she just laughs my cheapness off and provides great service. I'd never put up with this in Pattaya, of course, but upcountry, well, I guess I can deal with it.

This tale is another endorsement of brothels as when the girl worked in one she was little trouble, and only wanted 500 or 600 baht. Since she's gone 'independent' she must not get nearly as many customers so she's always squeezing.

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]Try having a Thai woman for a boss, if you want to experience a over-rought and melodramatic work environment. It's great fun. :([/QUOTE]

You're a braver man than I, Gunga Din.

I hear you on this story...

I have a couple similar stories from my recent trip to LOS. And the lesson I learned from them:

Never underestimate the power of the mamasan/boss of the bar. They can really talk some shit between you and the girls.

I try my best to avoid the bar fines as well. It is usually all good the first few times especially when I meet the girl at a club when she is freelancing after hours. However, eventually, the mamasan will get irritated because she is not getting a cut of whatever money I give the girl.

And the bullshit that they spill into the girl can be so poisonous...no matter how much the girl genuinely likes you. Can never win against the mamasan....only money can. :D

[QUOTE=Daddy07]Several months ago, I met a very lovely girl dancing at Sisters a-go-go. It felt like love at first sight. We made eye contact. She smiled so sweetly. I winked and smiled back. Soon she was sitting next to me. We laughed and joked. She touched me so softly. She is so tiny; so feminine. Her smile is radiant; her figure so beautiful. I liked every thing about her – beautiful face, outstanding body, charming personality -- and she speaks pretty good English too.

She asked me to bar fine her. I agreed after she said she liked oral sex. Our first session was nice. I enjoyed licking her soft bald pussy until she climaxed. Her BBBJ technique is mediocre at best, but her face is so pretty she had no trouble at all getting me off. The chemistry was great – wonderful GFE. She gave me her number and became a regular.

When she complained of no customers at Sisters, I suggested she go work at Super Baby. She had no trouble getting that job. When low season came and she complained again about the lack of customers at Super Baby, I suggested another bar that I knew had many customers, and she got that job too. She seemed very grateful for my help. I was happy for her.

Twice a week she always sent me an SMS saying: “How are you, Daddy? I miss you so much.” How sweet. I always invited her to come see me before work for another nice session, and I would give her 1100 baht. Now and then I would bar fine her for 600 baht, give her 1000 after the session, and she was always happy.

Once, she admired a bedside clock in my room, joking that I give it to her. Two weeks later I found another one just like it and presented it to her as we lay in bed. She squealed with delight over the simple gift. Our sessions, though always nice, remained mostly the same without variation. Her BBBJ’s remained mediocre. She didn’t want to change the routine. I was getting bored.

Two weeks ago she sent me another “I miss you so much” message, and I replied that I would see her soon. I went to her bar and bought her a drink. She whined about not having a customer for 14 days. I invited her to come see me the next day. She said: “I don’t know.” I said OK. Then she started bitching at me about not bar fining her. “My friend ask me why he (me) not pay bar for you,” and on and on. I told her straight out that I wanted her to come see me, but I wasn’t going to bar fine her. She stomped off leaving her untouched drink on the table.

A few days later I bought her another drink and she stomped off again after the same conversation. This time I called softly after her: “I don’t want to see you again.”

It’s my favorite bar so I still go there a lot. Now she won’t look at me. She walked right past me once having to squeeze past a table full of customers so that her face was six inches away from mine, but she would not look up at me. She knew I was there. I thought to myself: this girl cares more about her friend’s opinion of her than the 2200 baht I was giving her every week. If she really didn’t care about that, she would look at me and smile, but apparently she does care and she’s not happy. Of course, if she gives in to me she will lose face with her friend. I was touched.

So long, little sweetheart. It was great while it lasted, but you demanded a little too much.

Time to move on to the next one. And the next, and the next.

Thai girls. I love them, but will never understand them.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Alfiepcc]I hear you on this story...

I have a couple similar stories from my recent trip to LOS. And the lesson I learned from them:

Never underestimate the power of the mamasan/boss of the bar. They can really talk some shit between you and the girls.

I try my best to avoid the bar fines as well. It is usually all good the first few times especially when I meet the girl at a club when she is freelancing after hours. However, eventually, the mamasan will get irritated because she is not getting a cut of whatever money I give the girl.

And the bullshit that they spill into the girl can be so poisonous...no matter how much the girl genuinely likes you. Can never win against the mamasan....only money can. :D[/QUOTE]Is true, dun underestimate the waitress, waiters/guys who working in the club that love the gal u love n the working gals too, they will get jelous n irritated, they will spill poison n bullshit into your relationship to make sure both of u will slipt up. This happen to me before n lucky all the bullshit doesnt work.

[QUOTE=Oosik1]I hope I am allowed to do this, but I wanted to share an excellent article which helps to explain what many Thai women, and American women, have asked me. I refer to: [url]www.fredoneverything.net/AsianWomen[/url]

I hate feminists. The straw that broke the back of my marriage had its roots in feminism. It is my hot button issue. So, when I read this, I thought that this is a guy who not only has accomplished a good analysis of feminism, but has done a good job of writing it down.

Sorry, Jackson, if I shouldn't be referring to another web site. [/QUOTE]Thanks.

The article and it's author are great.

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]I hate to disagree with you. But, I'd say that the majority of Thai women are mentally and emotionally unbalanced, not to mention incredibly immature.

I've witnessed countless examples over the years from "regular" Thai women, that have convinced me that many, if not most are abnormal in one way or another.

To answer Terry Terrier's question...I think that the situations and behaviour dramatized on Thai Lakorn are both symptomatic of this abnormality and also a huge contributor to it.

On any given night, Thai TV displays overt and wild female (and male) hysteria and histrionics for all to see and emulate. The Thais are not a sophisticated people, especially up-country. They take what they see on TV much more seriously and literally than we do in the West. Thus, it has a huge impact on their belief system and subsequent behaviour. Stomping one's feet, and losing one's cool at the slightest provocation, like a petulant child is ingrained into every Thai woman's psyche.

The great cultural myth here, that Thais like to shove in your face is that they are a calm, serene, happy, smiling, loving people because they're Buddhists, not like us mean, aggressive Farang.

The truth is quite the opposite. They bottle up an incredilbe amount of emotion and anger, which then goes off, often repeatedly, like a rocket at any given moment, with often disastrous results.

Volatile and unstable, like nitro is probably a more accurate description.[/QUOTE]Hi Guys,

New to this forum, since yesterday.

I spent years in Thailand and was married to an"educated good girl" from a fairly well to do family. Yeah right?

Could not have said it better than Old Thai Hand.

Mr innocent

The artist formerly known as Pepe'/TV

[QUOTE=Gamahucher]Agreed, plus I have never really understood the kick behind voyeurism anyway, particularly in a town where real skin on skin is so easily available. [/quote]

Simple, Most Farangs on Camfrog do not live in LOS and the Thai guys that are there come to pick up girls.

[quote]Like sex chat lines, I never really got the point (although being a multi-million dollar industry, there are plenty of paying customers out there) and associated it more with inadequate saddo's wanking in their bedrooms. [/quote]

Imagine a single, X year old chap sitting at home, horny as hell and connected to the internet... I know there are a lot of movies and pictures available but a lot of guys want to see something new now, and the "live" concept of Camfrog could be exciting to some.

I don't know about you but I get bored after 10 seconds of watching a sex movie.

[quote]Now Nic & OTH definately do not fall into this category, so what's the deal? Do these girls emerge from their own fantasy worlds now and then and put out for you guys? Or are many of them pro's on the search for new customers anyway? Or is it simply that you like a spot of voyeurism on the side?[/quote]

For anyone who has lived in Thailand (lately) the answer is Easy: Thai girls LOVE attention, they just can't get enough of it. Pictures, videos, they love for people to talk about them so being on cam and showing skin while 100's of horny guys masturbate looking at them might be what get their juices flowing.

The sad thing in Thailand (or is it?) is that for every Thai girl there are 4 horny Thai guys going after her. No matter how she looks she will have a few guys courting her looking to get into her pants. Thai guys are Very very good at talking to the ladies and making them believe they are the most beautiful girl they have ever seen: as a result, even an average lookng girl will think she is All That.

[quote]There also seems to be plenty of Thai girls on DIA yet I do not recall this avenue of possibility being mentioned, particularly by the ex-pats with more time on their hands. Anyone had any luck in that direction?[/QUOTE]

I have pulled a lot of girls from Camfrog (and wrote some reports on it) so yes, this is a very successful way of getting girls.

but BEWARE, look at the attached picture and be careful about what you see on these DIA sites LOL. Camfrog's great because with the cam, you can see the whole package right away.

I read this on 'Mango Sauce' and thought it was oh so true.


1. Alcohol
Your demur Thai bar girl sweetheart will drink you under the table. However, she won't be satisfied with cheap local brands. Only costly imported beverages hit the spot. A huge duty-free bottle of Bailey's is the one thing that might stop her slaughtering your mini-bar.

2. Sweet shit
Thai bar girls love sugary snacks because prancing around that chromium pole and shagging all your mates requires a lot of energy. Let her shovel it in but remember to dump her before the dental bills arrive.

3. Seafood
Thai food is cheap and delicious but don't expect to taste any. Your Thai bar girl will go seafood-crazy when you foot the bill. Even when already gorged with sweet shit, she can still take on a blue whale. Try to keep smiling when she tells her friends to order whatever they want.

4. Som Tam
Part papaya salad and part incendiary device, a plate of som tam is next on her agenda. You could try some too - to burn the taste of that ghastly blubber out of your mouth.

5. Transport
Even if your room is just across the street, your Thai bar girl isn't going to walk there. The genes that enabled her parents' generation to toil in the rice fields are rarely inherited. To avoid tantrums, call a taxi. Stairs will provoke yet more whining. Make a mental note to buy a magic fucking carpet.

6. Dreadful Thai TV
Once in the room, your Thai bar girl will be straight over to the TV. She can't resist the awful Thai game shows and soap operas. To everyone else they are sheer torture and make the Shopping Channel look like quality entertainment. If you don't have UBC, you are doomed.

7. Games console
There are two activities you can enjoy with your Thai bar girl and this is the other one.

8. Cartoons
Sometimes a man needs his princess to amuse herself quietly. A pile of Thai cartoon magazines will shut her up for hours. Never discard them - they will do for the next girl.

9. Ganja
If you're daft enough to have any weed, your Thai bar girl will save you a long stretch in Thai jail (See Smile, you're in Thai jail) by smoking your entire stash. Afterwards, she will fall into the sleep of the righteous without so much as a thank you blow-job.

10. Gold
Inevitably, the relationship must end when your Thai bar girl asks for gold. She will be walking on air when you take her to the jewellers. Wait until she is thoroughly weighed down with trinkets before you walk out and leave her there. Turn back and enjoy the look of despair on her face. If she gives chase, laugh as the greedy tart is rugby-tackled by the shop's burly guards.

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]
6. Dreadful Thai TV
Once in the room, your Thai bar girl will be straight over to the TV. She can't resist the awful Thai game shows and soap operas. To everyone else they are sheer torture and make the Shopping Channel look like quality entertainment. If you don't have UBC, you are doomed.
[/QUOTE]
Well I need Thai TV to keep her occupied while I fiddle on the computer, but the next time I see the fabulous "ching rooi ching laan" I think i want to smash it. 40% advertising, 30% useless chatter, 20% men dressed as ladies, and only 10% actually playing the game.

It would be better if there was a spelling checker here. Perhaps I should paste my reports auto-corrected.

I thought the gold was more relevant to GFs.
I mean you wouldn't go to a gold shop with a BG, surely.

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]

I read this on 'Mango Sauce' and thought it was oh so true.

[/QUOTE]

Thanks OTH, Funny but useful.

Slim

[QUOTE=Mick Licker]I thought the gold was more relevant to GFs.
I mean you wouldn't go to a gold shop with a BG, surely.[/QUOTE]

I've known more than a few BGs who have had gold bought for them by punters.

Few regular TGs wear much gold, unless they're of the farmer's daughter variety. You won't find middle class and above TGs wearing those gaudy gold chains etc. It's considered tacky and low-class.

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]I've known more than a few BGs who have had gold bought for them by punters.
...[/QUOTE]Oh,

Thai [bar] girls like especially Thai gold a lot. One, two, three baht in gold, the more the better.

As soon as the new "boyfriend" leaves they can then go to a gold shop and sell it easily :) ...


Giotto

[QUOTE=Giotto]Oh,

Thai [bar] girls like especially Thai gold a lot. One, two, three baht in gold, the more the better.

As soon as the new "boyfriend" leaves they can then go to a gold shop and sell it easily :) ...


Giotto[/QUOTE]

You all are so jaded.... thai bar girls are innocent little creatures with good hearts and they do not run and sell gold jewelry (right away....)

Many times they will wait and then go and sell two or three gifts from different punters and upgrade to even a bigger bracelet or necklace or such :) And then tell each one that they sold and upgraded the item just for them...

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]I read this on 'Mango Sauce' and thought it was oh so true........ [/QUOTE]

Funny... but in reverse... when they stop drinking and eating at expensive places and decide to walk instead of taxi, study their english lessons instead of watch TV, and wear flip flops or such instead of high heels and say things like, we should save the money for our future is when you know it is time to head for the hills..... Especially when you find yourself sitting on some plastic seats at folding table eating somtam with her family or going to their home and having the monks and others putting yellow string around your wrists... it's time to monger in manila for a while...

But they never stop enjoying the chocolate from overseas.....

You want to learn what not to do... follow me and you'll learn a lot ;)

[QUOTE=Tansak KTV]Funny... but in reverse... when they stop drinking and eating at expensive places and decide to walk instead of taxi, study their english lessons instead of watch TV, and wear flip flops or such instead of high heels and say things like, we should save the money for our future is when you know it is time to head for the hills..... Especially when you find yourself sitting on some plastic seats at folding table eating somtam with her family or going to their home and having the monks and others putting yellow string around your wrists... it's time to monger in manila for a while...
...
[/QUOTE]Tansak KTV, my poor friend,

Is it that bad already :):):) ? Just falling from the chair here, laughing, you really made my day!


Giotto

[QUOTE=Giotto]Tansak KTV, my poor friend,

Is it that bad already :):):) ? Just falling from the chair here, laughing, you really made my day!

Giotto[/QUOTE]

With as much headaches as we have been through I figured you'd get a good laugh at this even if it is at my expense... and atleast this could be a good lesson for some newer members.... If the reverse of what OTH says happens... then your in even deeper crap.

I haven't even told the story about the holiday with the mother and family yet... :)

[QUOTE=Tansak KTV]
You want to learn what not to do... follow me and you'll learn a lot ;)[/QUOTE]
Best line you have ever written.

Can I suggest an ROD for only a portion of a post, or does it need to be the whole thing ?
'Coz that line is a classic.
:D

[QUOTE=1Ball]Best line you have ever written.

'Coz that line is a classic. :D[/QUOTE]

You like that huh... then you should love this one...

SHE bought me Gold :D

A gold wedding band :( and expects me to wear it... But she swears she does not want to get married even though there are bridal magazines all over the apartment. :(

Should be fairly obvious to even the densest monger buying gold for a Thai ***** is a fools errand.

May as well flush the money down the toilet

[QUOTE=Khun Larry]Should be fairly obvious to even the densest monger buying gold for a Thai ***** is a fools errand.

May as well flush the money down the toilet[/QUOTE]

Yep, but so many fools in LOS it's not even funny anymore

[QUOTE=Tansak KTV]You like that huh... then you should love this one...

SHE bought me Gold :D

A gold wedding band :( and expects me to wear it... But she swears she does not want to get married even though there are bridal magazines all over the apartment. :([/QUOTE]
May I suggest a double wedding at LL in a few weeks.
You and Miss ***, standing next to me and Miss T. we will be married by the Buddhist priests, then everyone in the pool.

You can buy me gold any day Tansak, you noti boy.;)

PS. The hilarious thing about her buying you gold, is she bought it with THE MONEY YOU GIVE HER. Next thing you know, she will buy herself a nice little 3 carat diamond, to wear on her wedding finger.

ROFLMAO

[QUOTE=1Ball]...
PS. The hilarious thing about her buying you gold, is she bought it with THE MONEY YOU GIVE HER. Next thing you know, she will buy herself a nice little 3 carat diamond, to wear on her wedding finger.
...
[/QUOTE]Mr. VP,

No, that's the diamond I gave to her long time ago. She will buy Thai gold - she can sell that better after the wedding :) !



Giotto

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]I've known more than a few BGs who have had gold bought for them by punters.

Few regular TGs wear much gold, unless they're of the farmer's daughter variety. You won't find middle class and above TGs wearing those gaudy gold chains etc. It's considered tacky and low-class.[/QUOTE]
Yes my current GF only has a tiny gold chain to hang her ruby pendant. Fortunately she is not into gold in general.

My previous GF was into gold. But asking for gold was just the same as asking for money. She never held onto the gold for long.

[QUOTE=Tansak KTV]Funny... but in reverse... when they stop drinking and eating at expensive places and decide to walk instead of taxi, study their english lessons instead of watch TV, and wear flip flops or such instead of high heels and say things like, we should save the money for our future is when you know it is time to head for the hills..... Especially when you find yourself sitting on some plastic seats at folding table eating somtam with her family or going to their home and having the monks and others putting yellow string around your wrists... it's time to monger in manila for a while...

But they never stop enjoying the chocolate from overseas.....

You want to learn what not to do... follow me and you'll learn a lot ;)[/QUOTE]
My GF was an incredibly frugal girl when I first met her. Didn't seem to ask for anything. Now its all going bad. Wants presents often. Seems to get more and more expensive.

[QUOTE=Giotto]No, that's the diamond I gave to her long time ago. [/QUOTE]

Ah... so that came from you huh.... wondered where that came from :)

Thai girls from different regions can have distinctive looks of the region at times. Sometimes it can be wrong.

I just met a Thai girl outside of Thailand and claimed that she had a definite "Khon Kaen" look. Lucky guess. I was spot on.

On the other hand I once took a Songkhla (southern) girl to the Issaan and all the locals were upset when she refused to speak Issaan dialect as she apparently looked very Issan. Maybe too many of her ancestors were Issaan.

[QUOTE=Mick Licker]Thai girls from different regions can have distinctive looks of the region at times. Sometimes it can be wrong.

I just met a Thai girl outside of Thailand and claimed that she had a definite "Khon Kaen" look. Lucky guess. I was spot on.

On the other hand I once took a Songkhla (southern) girl to the Issaan and all the locals were upset when she refused to speak Issaan dialect as she apparently looked very Issan. Maybe too many of her ancestors were Issaan.[/QUOTE]

There are a lot of Isaan people working in the South and have been for a long time. So, there's a good chance that your girl might have had some mixed genes in there, somewhere. The South is at best, a polyglot of mixed races with Indian, Malay, Thai, Chinese, Isaan etc. all having "got their dicks in" as a mate from London so crudely, but accurately puts it. As a result, though Southern girls can be some of the most beautiful around, although the Thais don't like them because they're dark and they speak Southern Thai which is considered very abrupt, loud, brash and rude.

[QUOTE=Tansak KTV]Funny... but in reverse... when they stop drinking and eating at expensive places and decide to walk instead of taxi, study their english lessons instead of watch TV, and wear flip flops or such instead of high heels and say things like, we should save the money for our future is when you know it is time to head for the hills..... Especially when you find yourself sitting on some plastic seats at folding table eating somtam with her family or going to their home and having the monks and others putting yellow string around your wrists... it's time to monger in manila for a while...

But they never stop enjoying the chocolate from overseas.....

You want to learn what not to do... follow me and you'll learn a lot ;)[/QUOTE]

It's no different wherever the girl comes from, or whether she's a poor farm-girl or a HiSo 'dek noo' from Bangkok.
I think that the farm-girls have relatively modest expectations, centering on gold (of course), building a new home for her family, a motorcycle or two for her 'brothers' and perhaps a pickup truck for Dad.

In contrast, a slightly more upper-crust girl will have wildly extravagant desires:

1/ Diamonds etc.
2/ anything Prada, Dolce Cabbana, Armani
3/ travel outside of Thailand and probably, outside of Asia

In recent weeks, my GF, because she's been hanging with a richer crowd, lately, has decided she wants to go to The Maldives for a holiday and shopping in Paris and Milan - the later, because I was there in the summer with my students. So, she thinks it can't be that expensive to go there (getting there isn't expensive. It's the staying and living there that'll kill you).

In the face of this, one has to take a firm stance and hope for the best, or start shopping for a new girl.


So, Tansak, you should count your lucky stars. ;)

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]...In recent weeks, my GF, because she's been hanging with a richer crowd, lately, has decided she wants to go to The Maldives for a holiday and shopping in Paris and Milan...[/QUOTE]
Duh ... Do ya think it might be time to put your head back on and get back to good old p4p? :)

Just minutes ago, I waved bye bye to my two little threesome puppies after a lovely hour of hot sex, and all they wanted was 500 baht each and a mini chocolate bar.

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]...In contrast, a slightly more upper-crust girl will have wildly extravagant desires:1/ Diamonds etc. 2/ anything Prada, Dolce Cabbana, Armani 3/ travel outside of Thailand and probably, outside of Asia[/QUOTE]
Methinks that a poor Isaan farm girl might be a relative bargain and much easier to keep happy (and horny) than your preferred Hi-So types!

[QUOTE=Daddy07]Duh ... Do ya think it might be time to put your head back on and get back to good old p4p? :)

Just minutes ago, I waved bye bye to my two little threesome puppies after a lovely hour of hot sex, and all they wanted was 500 baht each and a mini chocolate bar.[/QUOTE]

Nah. I was only actually saying this in very general terms and somewhat, tongue in cheak... In my case, the GF isn't being serious. It was more of a flight of fancy on her part, inspired by her new friends, and we both had a bit of a joke about it. But, for a few girls in the upper strata (not the majority, by any means, despite what some may think), the demands are serious and one is expected to fulfill them. These girls are generally not with Farang, anyway. So, it's not a problem any of us are likely to face. Rich Thai guys, on the other hand are the ones who really have to deal with it. However, I find that many of the richest girls I know are actually relatively modest to the point of being somewhat cheap. It's the upwardly mobile middle-class girls that Farang have to watch out for.

BTW, Daddy...You and others have predicted my return to P4P. But, it's simply not going to happen, if for no other reason than...(do I have to say this, AGAIN?, YAWN!), I find the girls ugly! Sorry. I just can't help it. I'm sitting at home alone tonight and was contemplating heading over to Cowboy. But, the idea of wasting money on drinks while looking at, what I think are sub-standard girls, just turns me off. If it works for you, then more power to you. It's great that you're having the time of your life. But, you already know that they don't do a thing for me, anymore. I get lambasted for it, time and again. But, it's simply a matter of taste, and there's nothing I can do about it. I got bored with them a long time ago, to the point that I find many of them somewhat repulsive, and that's not about to change.

I would rather just wait for my Gig, who's coming over for a couple of nights this week. Now, she's a real hottie from Northern Thailand, the source of the best looking women in the country (IMO).

I don't want to get into another of these types of discussions. The usual suspects will raise their troglodyte heads and rip into me just for the sake of it. There'll likely be some wank who says..."This is a board about mongering and P4P. If you don't like it, why are you here?" etc. etc....

Someone will pipe in that, "to each his own". More mud-slinging will occur...blah,blah,blah...

You do your thing with your little cuties, as you say, and let me enjoy my little tastes of forbidden fruit.

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]I would rather just wait for my Gig, who's coming over for a couple of nights this week. Now, she's a real hottie from Northern Thailand, the source of the best looking women in the country (IMO).[/QUOTE]

The big problem with the women from Northern Thailand is smoking. It's endemic. And, whilst many of the girls up there are pretty when they are 20, due to the unavoidable effects of the chemicals in cigarette smoke on delicate female skin (combined with a few months of hot sun every year), most of them have faces the texture of a workman's boot long before they reach 30.

[QUOTE=Terry Terrier]The big problem with the women from Northern Thailand is smoking. It's endemic. And, whilst many of the girls up there are pretty when they are 20, due to the unavoidable effects of the chemicals in cigarette smoke on delicate female skin (combined with a few months of hot sun every year), most of them have faces the texture of a workman's boot long before they reach 30.[/QUOTE]

Really? I guess I've been lucky then. I've never met one who smokes, (and I've met many) nor would I date one who does.

"The face like an old boot" and worse, syndrome can apply to most P4P girls. While some might be cute when they're 19, 20, they often look years beyond their age only a few years later. Most have absolutely atrocious skin under all that paint they wear, from working in less-than-healthy environments. It was pointed out to me years ago by a much "Older" Thai Hand that the thing that separated bargirls' appearance from that of regular TGs, more than any other was their skin, describing bargirls' skin as "waxy and vampire-like" after being on the game for awhile. In contrast, he observed that regular TGs can be noted for their freshness and healthy glow. In my experience, what he said has proven to be basically true.

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]...You do your thing with your little cuties, as you say, and let me enjoy my little tastes of forbidden fruit.[/QUOTE]
Oh, I wouldn’t dream of trying to drag you back into the ugly, sleazy world of Pattaya p4p, OTH.

Besides, I’m intrigued by your present situation, and await all the fascinating future reports of your upcoming tour of Paris, Milan, the Isle of Capri, Monaco, and the rest of high society Europe with the GF. I’m sure you can do it fairly cheaply if only you stay away from high priced champagne, haute cuisine, high fashion clothing, and the five star hotels. Will she be satisfied with a bit less than the best? :)

Seriously now, I too find myself once again with yet another golden opportunity to sample life with a good Thai girl. For several months now, I’ve been admiring from afar a tiny, delicate and stunningly beautiful young lady as she walks past my house on her way to work at the local neighborhood restaurant. When I often go there to eat, I’ve done nothing more than smile and be perfectly polite to her, though I admit to having many secret thoughts of stripping her naked and ravaging her lovely young body with my mouth.

Recently, to my complete surprise, my next door neighbor, a gay man, confided to me that this girl has been asking about me incessantly; where am I from, whether I live alone, have a wife, a girlfriend, etc. The next time I saw her I noticed that she was paying particularly close attention to me; looking in my direction, smiling provocatively, and making herself available at my table to chit chat. I suggested that she might like to go to America to visit one day. She replied without hesitation: “I go with you.” I then asked her if she might help me to learn Thai language if I helped her with English, and she eagerly agreed.

Our first ‘date’ consisted of a one hour Thai-English language lesson at my place, followed by a short jaunt on my motorbike to Jomtien beach for some Thai food at an outside stall complex. She told me that she lives down the street from me with her widowed auntie and family. She’s 21 years old, and, (get this!), has never had a boyfriend, not even a date; never been kissed, not even held hands; and now she wants ME to be her boyfriend. In short, this little Thai girl is as pure and innocent as the driven snow, a virgin, and totally inexperienced in matters of male-female relationships and sex.

Well, I don’t mind telling you, it scared the shit out of me! I told her that I’m way too old for her; that I see many ladies -- bar ladies; and it would not be fair to her if I were her boyfriend. She merely nodded and smiled sweetly. Now she calls me every day to ask what I’m doing, and wants to see me. I promised to take her to the beach tomorrow.

And, I have promised myself that I am never going to lay a hand on this pristine baby, but be only a perfect gentleman with her at all times from now on. As much as I would love to fuck the snot out of her, the mere thought of breaking her innocent baby heart makes me sick to my filthy perverted stomach. No, no, no, a thousand times no, I will not do it. I will not try to do it. I cannot do it. I won’t. It’s not right.

P4p for me now; p4p for me tomorrow; p4p for me forever!

[QUOTE=Daddy07]And, I have promised myself that I am never going to lay a hand on this pristine baby, but be only a perfect gentleman with her at all times from now on. As much as I would love to fuck the snot out of her, the mere thought of breaking her innocent baby heart makes me sick to my filthy perverted stomach. No, no, no, a thousand times no, I will not do it. I will not try to do it. I cannot do it. I won’t. It’s not right.

P4p for me now; p4p for me tomorrow; p4p for me forever![/QUOTE]

I agree with you. It wouldn't be fair. What would you possibly have in common? I would bet that she's quite immature. If some TG was calling me everyday, I'd go nuts.

Stick with what you want.

BTW, while your first paragraph is meant to be funny, I still detect some derision in your tone. Why fault me for my choice of having a GF? As it is, I will probably travel with her somewhere because it would be a pleasure. She is a very fun girl. Remember Daddy, you're not even a year in, here...I've been where you are a thousand times. Most of us (not all) who have done what you're doing move on. Some don't because like you, they don't want any sort of committment or entanglement. Both scenarios are valid.

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]...BTW, while your first paragraph is meant to be funny, I still detect some derision in your tone. Why fault me for my choice of having a GF?...[/QUOTE]
Yes, you are quite right, it was meant only to be funny and to tease you a bit, OTH -- no derision intended, I assure you, sir.

Actually, and I have said this to you before, I envy your relationship, and, of course, wish you all the best. There can be no fault in being in love with a beautiful girl.

Perhaps some fine day I will be trapped. Perhaps tomorrow. :D

Regards,
Daddy

[QUOTE=Daddy07]Yes, you are quite right, it was meant only to be funny and to tease you a bit, OTH -- no derision intended, I assure you, sir.

Actually, and I have said this to you before, I envy your relationship, and, of course, wish you all the best. There can be no fault in being in love with a beautiful girl.

Perhaps some fine day I will be trapped. Perhaps tomorrow. :D

Regards,
Daddy[/QUOTE]

There's no need to be trapped, unless you want to be. I chose to find a GF after 2 1/2 years of heavy mongering, and went through a lot of girls before I found the first one, who I was with for 4 years. Then, after that, I had lots more misadventures over 3 years, before finding the current GF, who is an improvement on the first one and a real "keeper" IMO. But, I understand and respect your choice and the freedom it brings.

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]So, Tansak, you should count your lucky stars. ;)[/QUOTE]

Really... today just have the Gold is down conversation and that we should buy much as it is down... What should I be counting?????

[QUOTE=Terry Terrier]The big problem with the women from Northern Thailand is smoking.[/QUOTE]

Really? I have yet to see a non P4P girl smoke in Chiang Mai... all my acquaintances and Staff (women only) are non smoker. I wonder what you base your fact on?

[QUOTE=Tansak KTV]Really... today just have the Gold is down conversation and that we should buy much as it is down... What should I be counting?????[/QUOTE]

:D

Could be worse. She could be with you at Emporium asking you to buy a Prada bag for 65,000 baht. ;)

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]:D

Could be worse. She could be with you at Emporium asking you to buy a Prada bag for 65,000 baht. ;)[/QUOTE]

Please... Emporium is our BTS stop... we are in that place every day it seems like... Paragon and Graysorn are common places for this Issan girl....

But to be honest... going to Central World and shopping at Espirit / BeeBee or such and spending 5,000 baht in many many clothes blows her mind. She only has two vices.. shoes and perfume really... She must have 40,000 baht in perfume. Every trip in I am doing the duty free for perfume... but that's my gift and what I do for her so I can not complain.

However I do have to shop at some higher end stores for work, and while we are there I like to go to some female higher end shops and watch these sales girls with attitudes be forced to kiss some Issan Ass. :D

[QUOTE=Tansak KTV]However I do have to shop at some higher end stores for work, and while we are there I like to go to some female higher end shops and watch these sales girls with attitudes be forced to kiss some Issan Ass. :D[/QUOTE]

Subversive, aren't we? :D

I'm sure that your poor Isaan GF is better off (because of you) than the salesgirls at Emporium. They may work at Chanel, or Louis Vuitton. But, they're likely still pulling in only 7,000-10,000/month.

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]Subversive, aren't we? :D

I'm sure that your poor Isaan GF is better off (because of you) than the salesgirls at Emporium. They may work at Chanel, or Louis Vuitton. But, they're likely still pulling in only 7,000-10,000/month.[/QUOTE]

Who me? Subversive? Just because I'm considered a Person of Interest to some countries (not thai) is no reason for name calling ;)

Yes I know what they make.. but it is their attitudes that really kill me. When I walk into a higher end store and they look at me like Farang tourist Scum and only become friendly when they see the purchases it kills me. You can get better customer service at DQ then at many of these stores.

What does goad me at times... if the TGF goes into a store and they won't give her the time of day but they immediately give her service when they see she is with farang... And it's even funnier how these same sales girls who will not wait on the TGF will somehow end up giving me their phone numbers after they see some of the shopping...

So yes I do like to play a few games in return... call me childish... :D

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]Subversive, aren't we? :D

I'm sure that your poor Isaan GF is better off (because of you) than the salesgirls at Emporium. They may work at Chanel, or Louis Vuitton. But, they're likely still pulling in only 7,000-10,000/month.[/QUOTE]
I like to pass through emporium to check out the talent rather than buy anything much except food and coffee so I NEVER take the GF there. Its usually before or after an Oily visit.

[QUOTE=NicFrenchy]Really? I have yet to see a non P4P girl smoke in Chiang Mai... all my acquaintances and Staff (women only) are non smoker. I wonder what you base your fact on?[/QUOTE]

On seeing people smoking everywhere in the towns. Hua Hin's not far behind, too. Even the monks smoke in the temple at Kao Takiab!

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]Really? I guess I've been lucky then. I've never met one who smokes, (and I've met many) nor would I date one who does.

"The face like an old boot" and worse, syndrome can apply to most P4P girls. While some might be cute when they're 19, 20, they often look years beyond their age only a few years later. Most have absolutely atrocious skin under all that paint they wear, from working in less-than-healthy environments. It was pointed out to me years ago by a much "Older" Thai Hand that the thing that separated bargirls' appearance from that of regular TGs, more than any other was their skin, describing bargirls' skin as "waxy and vampire-like" after being on the game for awhile. In contrast, he observed that regular TGs can be noted for their freshness and healthy glow. In my experience, what he said has proven to be basically true.[/QUOTE]
Perhaps the higher class girls hardly smoke and low class ones smoke more.

My favourite bar-girl in Cowboy surprisingly didn't smoke, hardly drinks and was still studying. Now that she has opened a little cafe with friend she has quit the bar (well at least until has no money).
I think she prefers to just hang on to a few of her very best customers, since she really enjoys sex.
She is a pretty good type for a bar girl really.

A few of my BKK P4P SWs have smoked cigs in my room. Some of them were also willing to smoke me wearing a condom. Others just got right on it without asking for permission and sans the cover.

[QUOTE=Daddy07]Seriously now, I too find myself once again with yet another golden opportunity to sample life with a good Thai girl. For several months now, I’ve been admiring from afar a tiny, delicate and stunningly beautiful young lady as she walks past my house on her way to work at the local neighborhood restaurant. When I often go there to eat, I’ve done nothing more than smile and be perfectly polite to her, though I admit to having many secret thoughts of stripping her naked and ravaging her lovely young body with my mouth.

Recently, to my complete surprise, my next door neighbor, a gay man, confided to me that this girl has been asking about me incessantly; where am I from, whether I live alone, have a wife, a girlfriend, etc. The next time I saw her I noticed that she was paying particularly close attention to me; looking in my direction, smiling provocatively, and making herself available at my table to chit chat. I suggested that she might like to go to America to visit one day. She replied without hesitation: “I go with you.” I then asked her if she might help me to learn Thai language if I helped her with English, and she eagerly agreed.[/QUOTE]Not too surprising a story, really. If OTH can get these kind of hot young TGs, anyone can.

I get come ons and looks from regular TGs on a daily basis, whether it's at the hotel, seven elevens, Villa Market or Siam Paragon.

But that kind of girl is not my thing, especially after reading the horror stories on this site. Yet as it has been said by a certain poster who I will not name, to each his own. Some seem to enjoy the bondage of a GF.

[QUOTE=Daddy07]
And, I have promised myself that I am never going to lay a hand on this pristine baby, but be only a perfect gentleman with her at all times from now on. As much as I would love to fuck the snot out of her, the mere thought of breaking her innocent baby heart makes me sick to my filthy perverted stomach. No, no, no, a thousand times no, I will not do it. I will not try to do it. I cannot do it. I won’t. It’s not right.

[/QUOTE]

You're right. By taking her innocence you'd be losing the last vestige of your humanity. You'd be taking the first step on a dark, downward path. Don't do it.

PM me her number instead.

Daddy07, let me ruin her for you. You can have her after I am done with her, and you will therefore have no need to feel guilty.
;)

Or you could marry her, in the hopes she brings her friends along for company on those cold Pattaya nights, or understands you will not change your dirty filthy mongering lifestyle. yeah right.

[QUOTE=Washburn]You're right. By taking her innocence you'd be losing the last vestige of your humanity. You'd be taking the first step on a dark, downward path. Don't do it.

PM me her number instead.[/QUOTE]
Absolutely! If I were to seduce this girl with false promises, I'd not be able to ever look at myself in a mirror again.

As for sending you a PM with her number: NO!

[QUOTE=1Ball]Daddy07, let me ruin her for you...[/QUOTE]
If I ever do 'ruin' her, it will be entirely her idea after I have disclosed my filthy ways in their entirety. If, for example, she someday begs me to teach her sex, how can, as a gentleman, I refuse. :)

[QUOTE=Daddy07]If I ever do 'ruin' her, it will be entirely her idea after I have disclosed my filthy ways in their entirety. If, for example, she someday begs me to teach her sex, how can, as a gentleman, I refuse. :)[/QUOTE]
You go Daddy, that's the spirit. :D :D :D
And don't forget to post FR and flighty pics if this does happen.

[QUOTE=Mick Licker]Perhaps the higher class girls hardly smoke and low class ones smoke more.

My favourite bar-girl in Cowboy surprisingly didn't smoke, hardly drinks and was still studying. Now that she has opened a little cafe with friend she has quit the bar (well at least until has no money).
I think she prefers to just hang on to a few of her very best customers, since she really enjoys sex.
She is a pretty good type for a bar girl really.[/QUOTE]
The one sure thing about rebel behaviour is that many of it's practical expressions are guaranteed to cross over into mainstream society sooner or later. And so it is in Thai culture: The tats, piercings, swearing, smoking, drinking, etc that were once almost exclusively the domain of bargirls are now crossing over slowly-but-insidiously in varying degrees. The early stage of this sees compartmentalising: You only show your new-found personal liberation to people who you are confident won't be offended by it. After all, this is 'bad behaviour'. Nic, this in no way a dig at you, but you may well wander into a bar off-duty one night to see several of your good girl non-smoking staff puffing away and knocking back the slammers. It's just a symptom of the adolescence of a nation.

[QUOTE=Terry Terrier]After all, this is 'bad behaviour'. Nic, this in no way a dig at you, but you may well wander into a bar off-duty one night to see several of your good girl non-smoking staff puffing away and knocking back the slammers. It's just a symptom of the adolescence of a nation.[/QUOTE]

No offence taken ;) , All the male staff smoke but the women don't, I go out with them fairly often and while the guys drink beer and puff away, girls sip on Ice teas and just gossip.

I have however, as you said, seen a rise of Tatoos among my female staff: Lower back and cleavage are the favourite spots. Piercings are starting and a few even have a pierced tongue (I did not check their Labia).

One of my female staff was shocked last week when I made fun of her tatoo, she was proudly showing it to me (some Roman numbers on her arm). I told her I did not like it and that in France, the only things we Tatoo are cows because we can't bother to remember their names. She was shocked and I doubt she comes to show me anything ever again.

[QUOTE=NicFrenchy]No offence taken ;)

I have however, as you said, seen a rise of Tatoos among my female staff: Lower back and cleavage are the favourite spots.[/QUOTE]I have been very interested by the link between women who get tattoos and anal sex.

I find that the percentage of women who have tattoo's who also like anal sex is high, and the percentage of non tattoo women who like anal sex is much lower.

There must be a link.

Has anyone else noticed this link?

[QUOTE=Bowerboy]hi Nic

Thanks for the great tips for Camfrog and your guide was very helpful. Could you explain more about the instant mesenger function? Seems like you have to buy gifts and send them before you can message anyone..

At the moment the thing seems like a big tease with the novelty quickly wearing off...[/QUOTE]

IM (instant messenger) works well to get to know the girls and lurre them into private sex shows but keep one thing in mind: Most girls put themselves in "Privacy" mode so that all the horny wankers on Camfrog can't send them IMs. If they are on Privacy mode, only people in their Friends list can contact them. The trick is to get them interested enough to want to IM you, once they initiate the chat, be nice, funny and they will most likely add you to their friends list.

Camfrog is a Big Tease for a lot of people, but if you know how to play it properly you can get a lot of "dates" out of it. Most Thai guys are only there to pick up girls.
The Key is patience.
If you go to Camfrog to see tits & pussies, then yes, you will get bored quickly, but if you go there to have fun and chat it becomes interesting.

[QUOTE=NicFrenchy]No offence taken ;) , All the male staff smoke but the women don't, I go out with them fairly often and while the guys drink beer and puff away, girls sip on Ice teas and just gossip.

I have however, as you said, seen a rise of Tatoos among my female staff: Lower back and cleavage are the favourite spots. Piercings are starting and a few even have a pierced tongue (I did not check their Labia).

One of my female staff was shocked last week when I made fun of her tatoo, she was proudly showing it to me (some Roman numbers on her arm). I told her I did not like it and that in France, the only things we Tatoo are cows because we can't bother to remember their names. She was shocked and I doubt she comes to show me anything ever again.[/QUOTE]

You have to understand that there is a strong cultural connection in Thailand to tattooing and it really has nothing much to do with social status. Thais from all walks of life get tattoos.

Lots of my very HiSo students have tattoos and my Gig has two - one at the base of the back of her neck and one on her right shoulder. Both are Buddhist tattoos and have deep religious significance, particularly to do with protection. They're called Saak Yant in Thai. The guy that did her tattoos is Ajarn Noo, the same guy who did Angelina Jolie. The girl in the first photo (Ajarn-noo1) has a similar tattoo to my Gig, but on her left shoulder.

To make insensitive remarks about tattoos is a direct slap in the face of Thai culture, so deep-rooted is the tradition. The remark you made to your staff member was highly insulting because I suspect that her tattoo was Saak Yant and probably had to do with 'luck'.

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]To make insensitive remarks about tattoos is a direct slap in the face of Thai culture, so deep-rooted is the tradition. The remark you made to your staff member was highly insulting because I suspect that her tattoo was Saak Yant and probably had to do with 'luck'.[/QUOTE]

No way, I would have not said this if the Tatoo was a buddhist tatoo. It was one of those obnoxious tatoos all farang women get at the lower back.

[QUOTE=NicFrenchy]No way, I would have not said this if the Tatoo was a buddhist tatoo. It was one of those obnoxious tatoos all farang women get at the lower back.[/QUOTE]

what? those wing style tats? Ok, then. That particular tat is SOOOOOOOOOOO LoSo - the mark of a skank. No "good" TG would ever get one of those.

[QUOTE=Easy2007]I have been very interested by the link between women who get tattoos and anal sex.

I find that the percentage of women who have tattoo's who also like anal sex is high, and the percentage of non tattoo women who like anal sex is much lower.

There must be a link.

Has anyone else noticed this link?[/QUOTE]


This whole girls with tattoos are tramps or are freaky in bed is getting old. One of sluttiest Thai girls I ever fucked didn’t have a mark on her she did have nice personality though. I posted on ISG last year in August

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]You have to understand that there is a strong cultural connection in Thailand to tattooing and it really has nothing much to do with social status. Thais from all walks of life get tattoos.

Lots of my very HiSo students have tattoos and my Gig has two - one at the base of the back of her neck and one on her right shoulder. Both are Buddhist tattoos and have deep religious significance, particularly to do with protection. They're called Saak Yant in Thai. The guy that did her tattoos is Ajarn Noo, the same guy who did Angelina Jolie. The girl in the first photo (Ajarn-noo1) has a similar tattoo to my Gig, but on her left shoulder.

To make insensitive remarks about tattoos is a direct slap in the face of Thai culture, so deep-rooted is the tradition. The remark you made to your staff member was highly insulting because I suspect that her tattoo was Saak Yant and probably had to do with 'luck'.[/QUOTE]Tattoo's and Thai MEN, yes, there is a strong cultural connection.

Tattoo's and Thai WOMEN, then stop talking crap. How many women over 50 do you see with tattoo's ? Or over 40 ? And you'd stuggle to find many over 30 "Hi So's" sporting tattoo's.

No..........tattoo's on younger girls is more to do with their mental state, than any crap about culture.

[QUOTE=Daddy Warbucks 1]This whole girls with tattoos are tramps or are freaky in bed is getting old. One of sluttiest Thai girls I ever fucked didn’t have a mark on her she did have nice personality though. I posted on ISG last year in August[/QUOTE]Well, I say there is a strong link. Its not exclusive. So no point saying you have fucked a starfish with a tattoo, or a **** without a tattoo, I am talking trends. And the trend I find is that girls with tattoo's, by a ratio of around 5 to 1, will be into anal sex against non-tattoo.

Thai tradition for women is white and pure skin. Not covered in tattoo's, so they have to be a bit "rebellious" in the first place to go against the culture and get a tattoo.

How many adverts on TV do you see with women with white and pure skin? And how many with women with tattoo's?

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]You have to understand that there is a strong cultural connection in Thailand to tattooing and it really has nothing much to do with social status. Thais from all walks of life get tattoos.[/QUOTE]
Here's a good website with information about traditional Thai tattoos: [url]http://sak-yant.com/[/url]

[QUOTE=Easy2007]Tattoo's and Thai MEN, yes, there is a strong cultural connection.

Tattoo's and Thai WOMEN, then stop talking crap. How many women over 50 do you see with tattoo's ? Or over 40 ? And you'd stuggle to find many over 30 "Hi So's" sporting tattoo's.

No..........tattoo's on younger girls is more to do with their mental state, than any crap about culture.[/QUOTE]


Is it just your goal to counter anything I say, regardless of what it is?

I don't know what you do. But, just because you've been here for 20 years doesn't automatically make you an expert on all things Thai, unless you actively do research on the culture.

Do you know anything at all about Thai history? I have researched and continue to do research on all aspects of Thai culture past and present.

I teach aspects of Thai history and culture at university and happen to have given a lecture on this very topic last week.

So, FYI...Tattoos on both men and women go all the way back to Sukhothai in the 14th century. Several female members of Thai royalty and aristocracy have had and continue to have tattoos.

For example, I work with a 30+ professor who is a 'Mom Rajawong' and has a small Buddhist tattoo on her right shoulder. She also told me she has another small one between her shoulder blades just below her neck. I hardly think that a woman, who is of royal blood and working in a prestigious university is rebelling against the culture or her parents.

Often, the tattoos possessed by HiSo women are not visible: the favourite location is the upper back, at the base of the neck or on the right shoulder. They don't generally tattoo legs, arms, stomach, breasts or lower back.

The other significant fact is that because monks cannot touch women, the tattoos can only be done by a lay or ex-monk, such as Ajarn Noo, who was a revered monk, who left the temple, but who is still considered to possess magical powers, and highly sought after by many HiSo Thais for a variety of spritual matters. He is a well-known celebrity and still viewed and respected as a holy man.

I personally have spent several hours with Ajarn Noo. My Gig has 2 tattoos done by him. I was interested in meeting him because at one point, I was going to make a TV documentary about him. One afternoon, several over-30 ++ and quite wealthy women came to make merit, receive amulets, tattoos (both ink and the 'invisible' sesame oil type). One Thai-Chinese businesswoman, with 2 Buddhist tattoos: one at the base of her neck, and another below that, handed him a large stack of 1,000 baht notes.

You can argue with me about politics because that's largely opinion and you're entitled to yours.

But, if you're going to go up against me about Thai culture, you had better know what the hell you're talking about. I would guess in this regard, I might possibly know considerably more than you do, unless you've done considerable research and written scholarly papers on the subject, which somehow, I doubt.

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]...I have researched and continue to do research on all aspects of Thai culture past and present.

I teach aspects of Thai history and culture at university and happen to have given a lecture on this very topic last week.[/QUOTE]

I thought you said your degree was in something 'marketable', OTH? Or maybe they've just got you lecturing outside your field.

[QUOTE=Easy2007]
Thai tradition for women is white and pure skin. Not covered in tattoo's, so they have to be a bit "rebellious" in the first place to go against the culture and get a tattoo.
[/QUOTE]
My GF trys to be a bit trendy and sexy but not exactly rebellious. So I asked her how come she got a tatoo?

She was young and drunk with other girls who were keen, and so couldn't think any better of it at the time. Many previous girls I have known who had tatoos seemed to give the same story. Was young and drunk and later regretted it.
One even had a lot of laser treatment to try to get rid of it.

So I reckon Tatooing should require a zero alcohol test first before being legal to proceed and have a minimum age (they probably have that already).

I'm not real keen on exaggerated piercings either, being an old fuddy-duddy. Fortunately the GF has set some limits on this. I won't have any studs interfering with my "lickin".

Mick--I must agree wholeheartedly. If a "valid" alcohol test would be required, many fewer people, men and women, would have fewer tattoos. Body piercings and tattoos cheapen a woman. Women are quite beautiful enough without adornments, and I don't want my teeth chipped by a damned clit stud either. I have a policy of not hiring anyone with tattoos showing.

[QUOTE=Opebo]I thought you said your degree was in something 'marketable', OTH? Or maybe they've just got you lecturing outside your field.[/QUOTE]

Well, history and culture connect to my main field of expertise, which is design. Afterall, many things integrate in the applied arts field.

But, I have a very eclectic background and have taught over 40 different courses in a variety of fields including business, mass media, fine arts and law. I currently teach in 3 different faculties.


That's why I am marketable.

[QUOTE=Mick Licker]My GF trys to be a bit trendy and sexy but not exactly rebellious. So I asked her how come she got a tatoo?

She was young and drunk with other girls who were keen, and so couldn't think any better of it at the time. Many previous girls I have known who had tatoos seemed to give the same story. Was young and drunk and later regretted it.
One even had a lot of laser treatment to try to get rid of it.

So I reckon Tatooing should require a zero alcohol test first before being legal to proceed and have a minimum age (they probably have that already).

I'm not real keen on exaggerated piercings either, being an old fuddy-duddy. Fortunately the GF has set some limits on this. I won't have any studs interfering with my "lickin".[/QUOTE]

There are tattoos and then there are tattoos.

I wasn't talking about the type of popular tattoos that one would get possibly as a result of imbibing too much alcohol: i.e. those ridiculous Celtic wingie things that a lot of BGs get above their butts, or hearts, butterflies, names of BFs or any other stupid flight of fancy.

Buddhist tattoos, on the other hand are a very serious matter and the interest in them across the whole population has been on the rise, again for some time and directly connects to more interest in Thai traditions as a result of historical dramas such as Suryothai, Khun Pan and Naresuan. They are one result of increased nationalism and overall uncertainty about the state of things.

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]There are tattoos and then there are tattoos.

Buddhist tattoos, on the other hand are a very serious matter and the interest in them across the whole population has been on the rise, again for some time and directly connects to more interest in Thai traditions as a result of historical dramas such as Suryothai, Khun Pan and Naresuan. They are one result of increased nationalism and overall uncertainty about the state of things.[/QUOTE]


Yeah, but aren't these the same people who believe that a tattoo will protect them from evil spirits, motorcycle accidents and bullets?

[QUOTE=Retired Army]Yeah, but aren't these the same people who believe that a tattoo will protect them from evil spirits, motorcycle accidents and bullets?[/QUOTE]

Yes, that's what those Buddhist Tatoos are about I think

[QUOTE=Retired Army]Yeah, but aren't these the same people who believe that a tattoo will protect them from evil spirits, motorcycle accidents and bullets?[/QUOTE]

Well, yes. That's the whole point. Thais are among the most superstitious people in the world: most of them believe in magic, evil spirits and above all, ghosts. There are more ghosts in the Thai belief system than probably any other culture in the world.

Have you ever looked at the inside of the front of a taxi cab? The ceiling has Buddhist chants, there are garlands hanging from the mirror to appease the gods, there are often amulets and a Buddha on the dashboard. All of this is to protect the driver.

If there happens to be a statue of Ganesh, it's there to bring the driver prosperity.


Anyway, I think we should either move this discussion or dump it. It doesn't belong here.

Another reason not to date thai women.. Need I say more? See for yourself

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMfPyyIHob0&feature=related[/url]

So, for you who are on AFF, you might already know this girl.
Reading her introduction reallt cracked me up!

I have attached is as a picture.

At least, she's honest.

[QUOTE=NicFrenchy]Another reason not to date thai women.. Need I say more? See for yourself

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMfPyyIHob0&feature=related[/url][/QUOTE]


Have you looked at the other videos about dating thai women? Some are quite funny.

[QUOTE=NicFrenchy]Another reason not to date thai women.. Need I say more? See for yourself

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMfPyyIHob0&feature=related[/url][/QUOTE]


Have you looked at the other videos about dating thai women? Some are quite funny.

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Vxz_LPVt34&feature=related[/url]

[QUOTE=NicFrenchy]Another reason not to date thai women.. Need I say more? See for yourself

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMfPyyIHob0&feature=related[/url][/QUOTE]


Have you looked at the other videos about dating Thai women? Some are quite funny.

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Vxz_LPVt34&feature=related[/url]

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cV0y53yhQFo&NR=1[/url]

[QUOTE=Lover Boy #2][url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cV0y53yhQFo&NR=1[/url][/QUOTE]
What A lovely Scouser! Who could ever imagine having to look over one's shoulder at a wide person from Liverpool, thinking you've won the lottery. Whatever next?

I’m sure I’ll get flamed for this but I don’t give a damn. A very nice lady got fucked over and it isn’t right. Not sure where to post this but there is a lovely lady in BKK (and many of us know her) who has screwed up her life because of a fellow punter out there. This reminds me a warning that Giotto posted someplace about the rules of mongering and what is right and what is not right when it comes to dealing with the girls, and what happened here I don’t think is right.

There’s this girl who was very popular in her job, made a lot of money, many punters liked her and treated her like a lady, travelled with her, and other punters who never had sex with her, myself included, treated her like a kid sister at times. Unfortunately she fell for a guy and the guy was married with children. But true love, he loves her, and she loves him. So after a while of heart breaks and tears she decides that she loves this man and he wants her to stop going other customers so she stops work. He says that since he has wife and child he can support her little and that is OK because she truly loves this man and he loves her. After a month or two of using her savings to survive she finally finds a job that pays a whole 7,000 baht.

7,000 baht working a regular job, when she could make 20,000 baht a week in her old job with many guys who watched out for her, took her travel, and honestly cared about this lady but were honest enough to not tell her stories and promise her items that would not come true. But she loves this man and this man would help support her little and this would all be OK because he loves her and she loves him. Two weeks into her job she finds out this man comes to BKK and he does not like that fact that his girl needs to work 10 hour days in regular job and does not have full time available for him. Plus he tells her that since he has wife and child he does not think he can pay her even little all the time and she should find job that pays as much as she made when she used to work in the bar, without of course going with other men. So this girl who left a very high paying position where she had an established client list and an establish position in the hierarchy of the bar, is now supposed to go out and find a job that pays 60 K baht a month or more and one that allows her to take time off to go with the man she loves when he wants and she is not supposed to go with other men, and if she doesn’t do all of this then obviously she does not love this man.

The girl even told family about this man and how she love and how he loves her. Now this girl is left working 10 hour days, making 7,000 baht a month, stopped her old work, told family all about her new love and how her new life would be, only to have lost face with everyone. I am told that she threw out her old phone sim and all contact info on past clients (can never be sure but I tend to believe her). But… she is determined not to go back to the bars for which I applaud her, but I am not sure she will survive without going back to a bar, if not the old bar then a bar, or to find another sponsor. And this will be a big loss of face. Personally I just hope she goes back to her village and leaves this all behind. This is the type of girl that deserves a nice guy and through bad judgment probably will never end up with a good guy.

What I don’t like is how as mongers many of us can sit around and call these girls sluts or *****s or such and say how bad they treat us or try to cheat us or such.. when in reality there are many more punters who treat the girls like shit. Maybe some of the girls are lying ***** scum but there are many ladies out there that don’t deserve to be treated like street urchin. Each girl out there who works P4P probably has a similar story that makes them how they are. So try to remember this next time you take a girl out.

On the other side of the coin, in my own personal situation, I know for a fact a girl I used to see who emails and calls me all the time and swears she still loves me is now marrying a guy from America, about 35 years older then her, he pays for her and her family, but she still wants to meet me every chance she gets (no money involved) even if she knows I have a new TGF and she swears she is being true to this other guy. She says she does not love him but will marry him and be good to him (while she is screwing me but I believe she is not screwing others) because he supports mom and family. She says her body belongs to mom and family, and it is only her body that this man is touching and having. She says her mind and heart belong to mom and family, and that yes I am still in her heart. He will never be in her heart and mind he will only have her body which she does not care. She even busses down to BKK when I am in town to meet me, and is wanting one last romp before she heads off to America. Her excuse and justification, it is better to marry a guy who will support her family then to fall in love with a bastard (obviously me) who was not willing to love her forever (atleast I was honest to her). And I can’t blame her and still think this guy from America is getting one hell of a bargain even if she is cheating on him.

So who is the bigger ***** or bastard, the girl who is marrying a guy because he supports the family even if she is willing to screw around with an ex friend (lover) or a guy who ruins a girls life by telling her to stop work and change her life only to dump her on the side of the soi? I think there is a larger collection of bastards in us mongers then there is a collection of bitches in the girls who do P4P. Or maybe I should stop the drinking and forget this shit… it is just wrong when a girl who is nice is hurt and treated like pond scum by some bastard. Is this what makes some of your dicks get hard? To try to get a girl to love you only to break her down and dump her and leave her?

And the funny thing is… this bastard is an ISG member….

[QUOTE=Tansak KTV] ... I think there is a larger collection of bastards in us mongers then there is a collection of bitches in the girls who do P4P. Or maybe I should stop the drinking and forget this shit.[/QUOTE]Tanzak - a sad but familiar story, and I'm sure it happens to hundreds every year, all around the world.

PS - I thought you were a non-drinker.

[QUOTE=Piper1]Tanzak - a sad but familiar story, and I'm sure it happens to hundreds every year, all around the world.

PS - I thought you were a non-drinker.[/QUOTE]

I spike my green tea with protein powder now and then :D

I just want the bastard to read this report, I know him and others do too, turns out to be a real slim ball.

Very well put Tansak KTV.

[QUOTE=Tansak KTV]I’m sure I’ll get flamed for this but I don’t give a damn. A very nice lady got fucked over and it isn’t right. Not sure where to post this but there is a lovely lady in BKK (and many of us know her) who has screwed up her life because of a fellow punter out there. This reminds me a warning that Giotto posted someplace about the rules of mongering and what is right and what is not right when it comes to dealing with the girls, and what happened here I don’t think is right.

So who is the bigger ***** or bastard, the girl who is marrying a guy because he supports the family even if she is willing to screw around with an ex friend (lover) or a guy who ruins a girls life by telling her to stop work and change her life only to dump her on the side of the soi? I think there is a larger collection of bastards in us mongers then there is a collection of bitches in the girls who do P4P. Or maybe I should stop the drinking and forget this shit… it is just wrong when a girl who is nice is hurt and treated like pond scum by some bastard. Is this what makes some of your dicks get hard? To try to get a girl to love you only to break her down and dump her and leave her?

And the funny thing is… this bastard is an ISG member….[/QUOTE]


Personally I wouldn’t go through all this trouble for a piece of ass but... Don’t like to stereotype but I watched Japanese guys do it to unsuspecting Filipinas in Japan damn near every day. “I am going to marry you, take care of you, give you a visa, blah blah blah you smell what I am cooking?

I would get burned under the collar because I knew most of the time the guys were full of shit but what can you do? Also just because you are open and honest with these ladies of the third world do you really think they one hundred percent understand what you are saying. Telling a Thai or Filipina I am not looking for anything serious which roughly means I just want to fuck you for a while and run away they still hope beyond hope that you might change your mind.

I remember back in my military days telling American girls that and they would flat out say I am not looking for anything serious either. Most western women get the picture clearly. SE Asia “breezies” on the other hand no matter how much you dumb it down they just don’t get it. I remember a Thai girl coming into bar in Pattaya and kicking my partner in the back while he was dancing with another girl spilling his drink yelling at him saying he was a butterfly only after they spent one night together LOL….Just one example of many. The more I hang around SE Asia the more the women seem like children….

Second thing is we don’t know his side of the story maybe he did feel for her and wanted to be with her and then changed his mind or maybe it was just lust. He could have had malice intent or could have just fallen for the charms of Asia and then woke the fuck up. We may never know.

[QUOTE=Daddy Warbucks 1]Personally I wouldn’t go through all this trouble for a piece of ass but... Don’t like to stereotype but I watched Japanese guys do it to unsuspecting Filipinas in Japan damn near every day. “I am going to marry you, take care of you, give you a visa, blah blah blah you smell what I am cooking?

Second thing is we don’t know his side of the story maybe he did feel for her and wanted to be with her and then changed his mind or maybe it was just lust. He could have had malice intent or could have just fallen for the charms of Asia and then woke the fuck up. We may never know.[/QUOTE]

I am told by a reliable source who has lived in Japan for a few years that most Japanese guys are very selfish.

On the other topic, I tend to be very careful with bargirl newbie types these days. It is known that they can get very stuck-on or possessive of guys very easily.
One of the very first bar-girls I ever went with had never met a guy that treated her well, and found it very difficult to accept that I would move on, and that perhaps she would meet a lot of arseholes in between the odd nice guy.

As I don't wish to lead girls on, I always make it clear that I have a GF already, and that I could not be the BF of someone so young anyway etc.
Its always easier in the end to be an honest butterfly rather than a bullshit artist. I would never like to lead on a girl of good character and meddle with her future.