American Politics

[PVMonger]

I should read links and footnotes before I post. I should have said the majority of Crimeans indisputably wanted to be part of Russia after the 2014 Referendum. The polls before had mixed results, but show support for unification of Russia or autonomy far preferred to becoming a common province of Ukraine, like Donetsk and Luhansk. Crimea did have autonomy in Ukraine before 2014. Crimea was a part of Russia until 1954.

And I think that almost everyone has seen the videos of Russian soldiers (with weapons) taking people to "vote" last year. Any "vote" where somebody holds a gun to your head isn't a "vote" at all.

[Xpartan]

The USA provided 1.94 billion in "selected" military assistance to Ukraine during its 2016 to 2021 fiscal years. See Table 2 in the link below. Add in contributions from other NATO countries and any categories of funding not included in the table, and you're in the billions, like I wrote. I don't imagine Russia was envisioning Ukraine might become a member of NATO at the time the Budapest Memorandum was signed. We were pretty friendly with Russia back then. Unfortunately, in no small part because of neocons in the USA, that's not the case right now.

https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/IF/IF12040

Yes, non-lethal assistance after the non-provoked Russia's invasion of Crimea and Donbass. That cowardice has come back to bite us in the ass because if we had armed Ukraine to the teeth, the February 24 wouldn't have happened.

Your analogy is backwards. The USA stole California, Arizona and Utah from Mexico. Texas was an independent country at the time.

Seriously, it was "independent" for 9 years or so. But that's besides the point.

Furthermore, indisputably, the majority of Crimeans wanted to be part of Russia, before and after the 2014 Referendum and the Russian takeover. See Polling, here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_C...tus_referendum

Indisputably, no less! The first sentence in your link says it is a disputed referendum. The article goes on listing numerous issues with this so-called referendum. Did you even read it?

But sure, why not advocate a so-called "referendum" held under the guidance of Russian armed forces and intelligence agencies.

If Mexico had taken back Southern California in the 1880's, when Mexican Americans were still a majority of the population, and if the majority of the population wanted to be part of Mexico, would I argue that the United Kingdom should be pumping billions into this imaginary war on the side of the USA? No.

You've masterfully evaded my question. Bravo!

The preceding was replying to my comment, "Gorbachev thought he had a commitment from the USA not to expand NATO. " This is another one where I believe I'm indisputably right.

From the link below, which goes into a lot more detail.

USA Secretary of State James Baker's famous "not one inch eastward" assurance about NATO expansion in his meeting with Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev on February 9, 1990, was part of a cascade of assurances about Soviet security given by Western leaders to Gorbachev and other Soviet officials throughout the process of German unification in 1990 and on into 1991, according to declassified USA, Soviet, German, British and French documents posted today by the National Security Archive at George Washington University.

The documents show that multiple national leaders were considering and rejecting Central and Eastern European membership in NATO as of early 1990 and through 1991, that discussions of NATO in the context of German unification negotiations in 1990 were not at all narrowly limited to the status of East German territory, and that subsequent Soviet and Russian complaints about being misled about NATO expansion were founded in written contemporaneous memcons and telcons at the highest levels.

https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-b...-leaders-early

I've got it, you just like the word "indisputably".

Read:

Did NATO Promise Not to Enlarge? Gorbachev Says "No".

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-fr...bachev-says-no

TL; DR.

NO, Baker has never ever, ever, ever, ever, but wait, let me repeat once again -- ever -- promised Gorbachev or anyone else that NATO wouldn't expand eastward.

And did I fucking say NEVER?

Whatever they were discussing was in the terms "what if". No promises were given. Ever!

We now have a very authoritative voice from Moscow confirming this understanding. Russia behind the Headlines has published an interview with Gorbachev, who was Soviet president during the discussions and treaty negotiations concerning German reunification. The interviewer asked why Gorbachev did not insist that the promises made to you (Gorbachev) particularly U.S. Secretary of State James Bakers promise that NATO would not expand into the Eastbe legally encoded? Gorbachev replied: The topic of NATO expansion was not discussed at all, and it wasnt brought up in those years. Another issue we brought up was discussed: making sure that NATOs military structures would not advance and that additional armed forces would not be deployed on the territory of the then-GDR after German reunification. Bakers statement was made in that context Everything that could have been and needed to be done to solidify that political obligation was done. And fulfilled.

Here is the interview with Gorbachev. Will that be enough for you to stop this nonsense?

https://www.rbth.com/international/2...lls_40673.html

The people in Crimea, and probably in some parts of Donetsk and Luhansk would have preferred to be part of Russia before the 2022 war. Ideologically, it would make sense for Ukraine to cede those areas. Practically, if Ukraine cedes more, the end result will be much preferable to the status quo right now, where people are dying and the economy is suffering.

I could rant and rant about your hypocrisy (Russia and her proxies have KILLED the economy of Donbass in the last 9 years; it's one ghost town after another now), but since you don't insert "indisputably" I'll let it slip.

With respect to any territory retained by Russia, it may turn out very much like what happened in those areas Mexico ceded to the USA in the 1800's. Undoubtedly the Mexicans living there preferred to be governed by Mexico, and some must have fought against the USA. But California, Utah and Arizona are much more prosperous than they would be if still part of Mexico. Russia's per capita GDP is about 2-1/2 times that of Ukraine.

All Russia's GDP is in Moscow and Saint Petersburg. Russia is a 3rd world country everywhere outside a few large cities. Very soon it'll be a failed state. Every part of Russia-occupied territory in Ukraine is a hot mess, and it was a mess long before the war started. But that's beside the point. It's not their country, period!

Historically on average Democrats have been somewhat more anti-war than Republicans.

They have? Well, FDR wasn't anti-war when the choice was to fight Hitler or let him have his fun. Maybe Democrats know what wars are worth fighting and what wars are unnecessary like Iraq. I wonder if you remember the administration that started that war.

[EihTooms]

I do not agree with anything you wrote in your post. I have not paid attention to American Politics for over 10 years and I left the country. I felt it was deteriorating rapidly and feel that if you are not going to do anything for me, at least do not fuck with me. I am now truly free and I go where I am treated best You should get a passport and use that birth privilege that your mama gave you to see that the Dis (United States of America) is not the center of the world. Only those that have never left it shores think that. The most important vote is the vote of my USD. And that USD does not get spent in the Dis (United States of America). People that think that their vote at the ballot box means anything when the executives in countries around the world do not control things tells me they need to be WOKE up and deal with the reality of the world as it is. Not fantasies of what they would like it to be. I have taken the orange pill. And the world looks completely different now.

I moved out of the USA to retire in Thailand almost 11 years ago and have not returned since. I worked, made money and invested in the USA and still have rental property there. I vote and care about what happens in the USA because I have friends, family and investments there. And because what happens in the USA does not stay in the USA. Obviously.

Ok, if executives in other countries control everything then my votes for Dems have been empowering executives to produce virtually every result that has presented me with more, better and higher paying income, business and investment gains over the years while some numbskulls' votes for Repubs have empowered executives to produce the only meaningful crap results, income, business and investment losses I have experienced in the past 70 years. And any historical data record you've got shows I was clearly not alone in that experience.

So if it makes you feel better, here is a big Thank You for the executives in other countries pulling the strings on Dems. Piss on the executives in other countries pulling the strings on Repubs.

[Tiny 12]

I do not agree with anything you wrote in your post. I have not paid attention to American Politics for over 10 years and I left the country. I felt it was deteriorating rapidly and feel that if you are not going to do anything for me, at least do not fuck with me. I am now truly free and I go where I am treated best You should get a passport and use that birth privilege that your mama gave you to see that the Dis (United States of America) is not the center of the world. Only those that have never left it shores think that. The most important vote is the vote of my USD. And that USD does not get spent in the Dis (United States of America). People that think that their vote at the ballot box means anything when the executives in countries around the world do not control things tells me they need to be WOKE up and deal with the reality of the world as it is. Not fantasies of what they would like it to be. I have taken the orange pill. And the world looks completely different now.

Tooms has already done that, left the USA. He's just extremely partisan.

A question, is that passport you mention an American one? I understand the USA and Eritrea are the only countries in the world that tax their citizens and require them to file income tax returns regardless of where they live in the world. And also that some foreign banks won't accept USA Citizens as customers, because of our government's onerous reporting requirements. So a USA citizen living abroad may have to jump through hoops to simply open a bank account. All of that seemingly would make it difficult to truly be free, just by leaving the USA.

And a second question, when you say "take the orange pill," do you mean you finally recognized what the USA government's all about? Or are you talking about crypto?

And finally, what does "Dis" mean?

Sorry for all the questions. You may be my new guru.

[Tiny 12]

Furthermore, indisputably, the majority of Crimeans wanted to be part of Russia, before and after the 2014 Referendum and the Russian takeover. See Polling, here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_C...tus_referendum

I should read links and footnotes before I post. I should have said the majority of Crimeans indisputably wanted to be part of Russia after the 2014 Referendum. The polls before had mixed results, but show support for unification of Russia or autonomy far preferred to becoming a common province of Ukraine, like Donetsk and Luhansk. Crimea did have autonomy in Ukraine before 2014. Crimea was a part of Russia until 1954.

[Tiny 12]

That's a false analogy. Neither NATO nor the US was arming Ukraine prior to the 2022 invasion. We should've after they grabbed Crimea in 2014. If we had, this war would simply not have happened. That we betrayed our ally in 2014 after putting our signatures on the Budapest Memorandum is a shameful stain on our reputation, and it'll stay there for good. Not unlike Munich Agreement with Hitler in 1938.

The USA provided 1.94 billion in "selected" military assistance to Ukraine during its 2016 to 2021 fiscal years. See Table 2 in the link below. Add in contributions from other NATO countries and any categories of funding not included in the table, and you're in the billions, like I wrote. I don't imagine Russia was envisioning Ukraine might become a member of NATO at the time the Budapest Memorandum was signed. We were pretty friendly with Russia back then. Unfortunately, in no small part because of neocons in the USA, that's not the case right now.

https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/IF/IF12040

I have another question for you. I find it kind of funny that you believe Ukraine should cede Crimea to the aggressor, though. How would you feel if Mexico tried to take back California by force?

Wait, that's a libtard state, so I'm sure you wouldn't mind. How about Texas then? How about Utah and Arizona? Would it be OK for Mexico to take them all back? Why not (if not)? Why is it OK for Russia to grab Crimea, but not for Mexico?

Your analogy is backwards. The USA stole California, Arizona and Utah from Mexico. Texas was an independent country at the time.

Furthermore, indisputably, the majority of Crimeans wanted to be part of Russia, before and after the 2014 Referendum and the Russian takeover. See Polling, here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_C...tus_referendum

If Mexico had taken back Southern California in the 1880's, when Mexican Americans were still a majority of the population, and if the majority of the population wanted to be part of Mexico, would I argue that the United Kingdom should be pumping billions into this imaginary war on the side of the USA? No.

No, he didn't. It's yet another myth picked by Putin from the history dustbin. It's unfortunate that you repeat this Putin propaganda nonsense.

The preceding was replying to my comment, "Gorbachev thought he had a commitment from the USA not to expand NATO. " This is another one where I believe I'm indisputably right.

From the link below, which goes into a lot more detail.

USA Secretary of State James Baker's famous "not one inch eastward" assurance about NATO expansion in his meeting with Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev on February 9, 1990, was part of a cascade of assurances about Soviet security given by Western leaders to Gorbachev and other Soviet officials throughout the process of German unification in 1990 and on into 1991, according to declassified USA, Soviet, German, British and French documents posted today by the National Security Archive at George Washington University.

The documents show that multiple national leaders were considering and rejecting Central and Eastern European membership in NATO as of early 1990 and through 1991, that discussions of NATO in the context of German unification negotiations in 1990 were not at all narrowly limited to the status of East German territory, and that subsequent Soviet and Russian complaints about being misled about NATO expansion were founded in written contemporaneous memcons and telcons at the highest levels.

https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-b...-leaders-early

How do you suggest we work "to end this lunacy"? Drop the euphemisms already and say what you mean. You do want to tell Ukraine to cede the territories Russia has already occupied. This is what you, Elvis and every other appeaser of war criminals mean by "ending this lunacy".

There is the name for it: Munich-38.

And it didn't work.

The people in Crimea, and probably in some parts of Donetsk and Luhansk would have preferred to be part of Russia before the 2022 war. Ideologically, it would make sense for Ukraine to cede those areas. Practically, if Ukraine cedes more, the end result will be much preferable to the status quo right now, where people are dying and the economy is suffering.

With respect to any territory retained by Russia, it may turn out very much like what happened in those areas Mexico ceded to the USA in the 1800's. Undoubtedly the Mexicans living there preferred to be governed by Mexico, and some must have fought against the USA. But California, Utah and Arizona are much more prosperous than they would be if still part of Mexico. Russia's per capita GDP is about 2-1/2 times that of Ukraine.

Historically on average Democrats have been somewhat more anti-war than Republicans. Why is this different this time around? Maybe some of it has to do with Trump. Putin and Russia tried to help Trump in the 2016 election, and perhaps Democrats want to punish them for it. I just wish we weren't in a new cold war.

[PVMonger]

You have a very good point PVMonger. P&G's directors may not be crackheads. And they may have much more impressive resumes and experience than Hunter Biden. But comparatively Burisma and its owner, Mykola Zlochevsky, got much better value for their money out of Hunter than P&G did out of its board members.

Now Hunter may have cost a little more, around $600,000 per year. But how many P&G directors can say that their very presence on the board may have prevented the company from liquidation? And kept its owners out of prison?

Addiction is a disease, not a state of mind. Yes, Hunter is an addict and will be to the day he dies. If he is clean now, more power to him. But to call him a "crackhead" as a pejorative isn't right.

[SubCmdr]

I do not agree with anything you wrote in your post. I have not paid attention to American Politics for over 10 years and I left the country. I felt it was deteriorating rapidly and feel that if you are not going to do anything for me, at least do not fuck with me. I am now truly free and I go where I am treated best You should get a passport and use that birth privilege that your mama gave you to see that the Dis (United States of America) is not the center of the world. Only those that have never left it shores think that. The most important vote is the vote of my USD. And that USD does not get spent in the Dis (United States of America). People that think that their vote at the ballot box means anything when the executives in countries around the world do not control things tells me they need to be WOKE up and deal with the reality of the world as it is. Not fantasies of what they would like it to be. I have taken the orange pill. And the world looks completely different now.

Even if that were true, the fact is the House, Senate and White House will be controlled by either the Dems or the Repubs for the rest of your life and that of your childrens' children. The only choice your vote might result in is will they be controlled by the Party that throws around a lot of big talk about handling the economy and National Security better than the opposition but in reality has legislated, produced and led us into every Great Depression, Great Recession, Massive Jobs Loss and Mass Murder of Americans and none of the Great Recoveries, Great Expansions and Historic Job Gains since the late 1920's with no indication that their agenda and methods for producing those results has changed one iota in 100 years or do you want your vote to go to the Party that has legislated and produced the exact opposite of those horrific results in that same timeframe.

Hoping the Party your vote helps to win will be filled with saintly, altruistic monks, priests and rabbis is a nice idea. But, frankly, I believe worrying about such things in the face of inarguable historic patterns, results and realities regarding Real World critical issues is for suckers. The former Party I cited above knows it is for suckers. Hence, The Great 2024 Repub War On Woke!

LOL.

[Tiny 12]

I just love it when Repubs scream about Hunter Biden being on Burisma's Board of Directors, despite having no experience in the oil / gas industries.

I challenge anyone to research the current makeup of, say, the P&G (Procter & Gamble) Board of Directors. P&G's focus is in the areas of "Consumer Packaged Goods". How many of the executives that sit on P&G's current BoD have expertise in "Consumer Packaged Goods"? The P&G BoD has 13 members and none of them. I repeat none of them have CPG experience. https://us.pg.com/structure-and-gove...s-composition/ Each member of the P&G BoD earns roughly $300 K USD per year.

You have a very good point PVMonger. P&G's directors may not be crackheads. And they may have much more impressive resumes and experience than Hunter Biden. But comparatively Burisma and its owner, Mykola Zlochevsky, got much better value for their money out of Hunter than P&G did out of its board members.

Now Hunter may have cost a little more, around $600,000 per year. But how many P&G directors can say that their very presence on the board may have prevented the company from liquidation? And kept its owners out of prison?

Mykola Zlochevsky, owner of Burisma, was a genius to get Hunter Biden to serve on his board. Two years prior to when he hired Hunter, he was transferring government oil and gas leases to his own company while he was Minister of Ecology and Natural Resources, in a strongly pro-Russian government. When his party got kicked out and replaced by Ukrainian nationalists, Zlochevsky could have been toast. But with the son of the Vice President of the United States on his board, maybe he was bullet proof.

[Xpartan]

Really?

https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/10.1086/697363

Yes, really.

Of course there was corruption during Stalin. Russia has always been corrupt. Corruption has never paused in Russian history, not for a second. Yet, again, the corruption under Stalin's regime was very careful, it always looked over the shoulder, it was small, apologetic and timid. It wasn't scaled and in your face like today.

Other post Soviet states like Ukraine?

Yes! And like Belarus, and like Armenia and like all the "Stans" too. Again, what's your point? Does corruption in Ukraine justify the Russian aggression?

I presume you're not an admirer of Stalin, just trying to make a point.

You presume correctly.

I was just replying to you:

"if EVERYONE in Ukraine was corrupt, Russian garrisons would've already been stationed in Kiyv and Lviv, and elsewhere. Instead, they're getting their asses handed to them. ".

That's right. Russia had spent billions to bribe people in Ukraine prior to the invasion. Of course, most of the monies were stolen in the process, but if everyone was corrupt in Ukraine, they wouldn't have the army, the effective intelligence services, the working government, nothing.

Any Americans who voluntarily want to donate to war efforts in Ukraine or actually go there and fight should be free to do so. As a semi-believer in the 2nd amendment, if they want to take up a collection to buy F16's and Abrams tanks and ship them to Ukraine, they should have at it. I would draw the line at strategic nuclear weapons though.

Now, this is a 5-year old's musings. You, a private citizen, can't buy F16, you can't buy Abrams, you can't ship them anywhere, it's total bullshit.

I don't want our tax dollars being used, to the tune of $75 billion, to promote a war 5000 miles away, when we're not simultaneously trying to bring an end to it. Instead we've told Ukraine that they have a blank check for as long as they want. And the Ukrainians say they're not going to stop until they've regained Crimea.

Yeah, sure. It's we who're promoting the most destructive war in Europe in the last 100 year. Sure. Give us more please, you're on the roll today.

What do you think our reaction would be if the Warsaw Pact were arming Mexico to the tunes of billions of dollars and talking about taking it in as a member? How many countries in Latin America have we invaded? Remember Grenada?

That's a false analogy. Neither NATO nor the US was arming Ukraine prior to the 2022 invasion. We should've after they grabbed Crimea in 2014. If we had, this war would simply not have happened. That we betrayed our ally in 2014 after putting our signatures on the Budapest Memorandum is a shameful stain on our reputation, and it'll stay there for good. Not unlike Munich Agreement with Hitler in 1938.

I have another question for you. I find it kind of funny that you believe Ukraine should cede Crimea to the aggressor, though. How would you feel if Mexico tried to take back California by force?

Wait, that's a libtard state, so I'm sure you wouldn't mind. How about Texas then? How about Utah and Arizona? Would it be OK for Mexico to take them all back? Why not (if not)? Why is it OK for Russia to grab Crimea, but not for Mexico?

Gorbachev thought he had a commitment from the USA not to expand NATO. It hasn't turned out that way.

No, he didn't. It's yet another myth picked by Putin from the history dustbin. It's unfortunate that you repeat this Putin propaganda nonsense.

Russia has the largest nuclear arsenal in the world. We should be working to end this lunacy, instead of throwing gasoline on the fire.

Ah, here we go. Don't upset Russia because Russia has nukes.

Give them what they want because they have nukes.

Suck their dick because they have nukes.

How do you suggest we work "to end this lunacy"? Drop the euphemisms already and say what you mean. You do want to tell Ukraine to cede the territories Russia has already occupied. This is what you, Elvis and every other appeaser of war criminals mean by "ending this lunacy".

There is the name for it: Munich-38.

And it didn't work.

[PVMonger]

That numbskull in your video asked, "What am I missing"?

Well, here is what we are all sure is just a tiny portion of easily observable and easily researched reality that he is missing:

Fact check: Biden leveraged $1B in aid to Ukraine to oust corrupt prosecutor, not to help his son.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...or/5991434002/

That's right. Even dimwit Senate Repubs weren't stupid enough to "miss" what you and that other numbskull in your video link missed. Or pretended to miss. LOL.

I just love it when Repubs scream about Hunter Biden being on Burisma's Board of Directors, despite having no experience in the oil / gas industries.

I challenge anyone to research the current makeup of, say, the P&G (Procter & Gamble) Board of Directors. P&G's focus is in the areas of "Consumer Packaged Goods". How many of the executives that sit on P&G's current BoD have expertise in "Consumer Packaged Goods"? The P&G BoD has 13 members and none of them. I repeat none of them have CPG experience. https://us.pg.com/structure-and-gove...s-composition/ Each member of the P&G BoD earns roughly $300 K USD per year.

[Tiny 12]

If China sent a nuclear bomb across and it landed on your city and somehow you managed to survive. China said it was a mistake, they pressed the wrong button. The bombs wer supposed to improve world peace not for attack. Would you expect reparations?

I don't believe COVID 19 was developed as a bioweapon, so have a tough time accepting the analogy. Forcing reparations on a country is a bad idea. We learned that from the Treaty of Versailles. The effect on Germany, and later on the world after Hitler came to power, was devastating. Furthermore, the USA is one of the wealthiest countries in the world. Why should China, a developing country, provide reparations to USA Citizens? The USA should be able to take care of itself.

Now if China wanted to voluntarily provide aid to a poor country like, say Sri Lanka or Peru, that was badly hit by COVID, that would be great.

[EihTooms]

Of course, everyone at Fux News knew what Brett Baier is saying here, contrary to Trump's Big Lie, since they called Arizona for Biden the night of the 2020 election. Did Trumpty-Dumpty not hear about the $800 Million that Fux News was fined for repeating his lies for the past 2 1/2 years and think they were going to repeat those lies on his behalf again last night and pay another $800 Million for the honor? LOL.

"First of all, I won in 2020 by a lot, ok? Let's get that straight. ".

Uh. Nope. Fux News is not going there anymore. Not for another $800 Million.

https://twitter.com/Acyn/status/1670...TweetUser=Acyn

[JustTK]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree JustTK. I'm not a fan of RFK.

If China sent a nuclear bomb across and it landed on your city and somehow you managed to survive. China said it was a mistake, they pressed the wrong button. The bombs wer supposed to improve world peace not for attack. Would you expect reparations?

[Tiny 12]

I had no idea that this story had broke before. I am surprised it never got much traction. Thanks for that.

It doesn't prove lab leak? Like if I find a starnger in my house with a bloody knife in his hand and my wife dead on the floor, that doesn't prove the stranger killed her either. Its true maybe an infected bat flew in thru the lab window and infected them. Hey strange things happen!

And most certainly the lab was doing gain of function, so again you just want to ignore all the evidence and "wah, wah, wah, I can't hear you!

About reparations. Your excuse is truly terrible here Tiny. First I didn't say that China should not pay. They are just as guilty as USA. The are both guilty of reckless endangerment and should pay rapartaions to all. RFK agrees with me. - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fl-Fv9ZF-Og.

It is NO EXCUSE that they were doing it for good purpose. And that has not been proven either. They were doing it for their own benefit, not mine or yours or Sinezo's in Tanzania. The Nazis would argue the same thing.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree JustTK. I'm not a fan of RFK.