Stupid Shit in Kyiv

[PaulInZurich]

Kosovo might've been a mistake simply because there was no rhyme or reason of creating another Albanian country in Europe run by a terrorist and criminal organization. Additionally, while Kosovar Albanians were oppressed by the Miloshevich's Yugoslav Army, they also oppressed Kosovar Serbs. Ethnic cleansing is never straightforward.

That said the hindsight is always twenty-twenty. By 1999, Milosevich had lied so much and committed so many atrocities that no one would believe anything coming out of his mouth. The Nato just had enough. Besides, after the Rwandan Genocide, no one, and Clinton less than any, had an appetite to wait what happens in Kosovo and hope for the best.

I agree with all of the above. Both the Serbs and Albanians committed war crimes. Milosevici was a war criminal. The Rwandan genocide had a huge influence on the decision to intervene especially considering that massacres already happened for years in the Balkans after 1990.

Side note: I know very well somebody who worked for the UNHCR in Rwanda and DRC at the time. The things she saw over there and the impact it had on her is unimaginable.

[Blood Red]

You claimed in your response that some of Ukrainian MIAs are those who had left their country. Now it's deserters. Make up your mind, maybe?

1. You don't have a 7 to 1 advantage in artillery, the real average number is 3 to 1.

2. The Ukrainians have learned to counter your artillery advantage with drones.

3. The advancing troops always lose more people than the defenders.

4. Furthermore, you are military degenerates who advance with complete disregard for the lives of your own soldiers. Your MO is:

5. Ukraine is winning.

[Blood Red]

I believed at the time that allowing Kosovo to secede was a mistake long term, it just opened Pandora's box for border redrawing borders world wide. After that any authoritarian country got their excuse.

Exactly, it opened up Pandora's box as you rightfully said. And it proved that NATO is NOT a defensive alliance. It is an offensive imperialist alliance.

I don't pretend to really understand the situation in the Balkans, it's really complicated. I understand that the Albanians in Kosovo were severely oppressed since at least the 80's and by the time heavy violence broke out, the Yugoslav wars were already in full swing since a few years with the odd massacre of civilians here and there. Obviously nobody felt safe at the time in any part of ex Yugoslavia. I wish it would have been possible that the situation could have been solved by a lot of autonomy for the province at the time with security guarantees.

Agree. If you know the history, that's what Russia / Putin wanted for the Donbas with the Minsk accords.

Sure, Crimeea voted to join Russia. Would they have won in free and fair elections? Maybe, but we will never know. You can't honestly say though that those were free and fair elections. I wonder if there were ever free and fair elections in any place controlled by Russia.

As I said to you, the collective west only accepts election results which they like. Remember when the people of Gaza voted for Hamas in a fair election? The west didn't like the result so they sanctioned them and supported the criminal Israeli blockade.

The vast majority of the Crimean population has always been Russian. They voted to join Russia overwhelmingly. And always remember, Putin only acted to take Crimea in 2014 after the west backed Maidan coup which opened the doors for NATO to enter Ukraine and hence seize Crimea. The Russians were never going to allow that. So you must look at what brought on the Crimea takeover. And I appreciate your honest posts.

[Xpartan]

I believed at the time that allowing Kosovo to secede was a mistake long term, it just opened Pandora's box for border redrawing borders world wide. After that any authoritarian country got their excuse.

I don't pretend to really understand the situation in the Balkans, it's really complicated. I understand that the Albanians in Kosovo were severely oppressed since at least the 80's and by the time heavy violence broke out, the Yugoslav wars were already in full swing since a few years with the odd massacre of civilians here and there. Obviously nobody felt safe at the time in any part of ex Yugoslavia. I wish it would have been possible that the situation could have been solved by a lot of autonomy for the province at the time with security guarantees.

Sure, Crimeea voted to join Russia. Would they have won in free and fair elections? Maybe, but we will never know. You can't honestly say though that those were free and fair elections. I wonder if there were ever free and fair elections in any place controlled by Russia.

Kosovo might've been a mistake simply because there was no rhyme or reason of creating another Albanian country in Europe run by a terrorist and criminal organization. Additionally, while Kosovar Albanians were oppressed by the Miloshevich's Yugoslav Army, they also oppressed Kosovar Serbs. Ethnic cleansing is never straightforward.

That said the hindsight is always twenty-twenty. By 1999, Milosevich had lied so much and committed so many atrocities that no one would believe anything coming out of his mouth. The Nato just had enough. Besides, after the Rwandan Genocide, no one, and Clinton less than any, had an appetite to wait what happens in Kosovo and hope for the best.

[Xpartan]

I think we're both missing the bigger picture Xpartan. The costs on both sides have been horrendous. The West should be enabling peace instead of war IMO.

And how is the West supposed to do this? By cutting off the military assistance? By making Ukraine capitulate? By ensuring that the next war is 100% inevitable?

How about some specifics instead of your cheap and pointless Kumbaya?

[PaulInZurich]

I am all for free and fair referendums. The problem with the collective west is that they don't accept results they do not like. Why was it okay for Kosovo to leave Serbia? Why was it okay for the collective west to change Serbia's borders by force? They set the precedent. The majority of the people in Crimea have always been Russians. They voted overwhelmingly to join Russia. Why is that not okay? Let's be fair here. You seem to be a reasonable person.

I believed at the time that allowing Kosovo to secede was a mistake long term, it just opened Pandora's box for border redrawing borders world wide. After that any authoritarian country got their excuse.

I don't pretend to really understand the situation in the Balkans, it's really complicated. I understand that the Albanians in Kosovo were severely oppressed since at least the 80's and by the time heavy violence broke out, the Yugoslav wars were already in full swing since a few years with the odd massacre of civilians here and there. Obviously nobody felt safe at the time in any part of ex Yugoslavia. I wish it would have been possible that the situation could have been solved by a lot of autonomy for the province at the time with security guarantees.

Sure, Crimeea voted to join Russia. Would they have won in free and fair elections? Maybe, but we will never know. You can't honestly say though that those were free and fair elections. I wonder if there were ever free and fair elections in any place controlled by Russia.

[Tiny 12]

You claimed in your response that some of Ukrainian MIAs are those who had left their country. Now it's deserters. Make up your mind, maybe?
.

I think we're both missing the bigger picture Xpartan. The costs on both sides have been horrendous. The West should be enabling peace instead of war IMO.

[Blood Red]

Crimea was just fucked by Putin. Ask them if they feel happy now under dictator Putin, when they lost freedom. Same for Georgians, Ukrainians, Romanians and Moldavians. Except blind, no brained Russians, nobody want to be under dictator Putin. Only China, north Korea, Al Assad and some new Africans, for friends, so great friends for Putin. Others just wait his death.

You failed to answer my questions regarding Serbia and Kosovo. Like I said, the precedence of changing borders in Europe by force was set by NATO.

[Xpartan]

That absolutely was not a joke. It's the reality. Please see this:

https://apnews.com/article/deserters...d593363c9e5ea0

And these men are not cowards.

You claimed in your response that some of Ukrainian MIAs are those who had left their country. Now it's deserters. Make up your mind, maybe?

Comical. I bet you also believe Zelensky's number of 35 K for Ukrainian casualties that he stated a while back.

Like I said, this is a war where the main mode of killing is by ARTILLERY. The Russians have a 7 to 1 advantage in artillery, and even a 10 to 1 in some places. Do the math which side will lose more men. You're a dumbass and delusional so it's pointless telling that to you, but anyone with half a brain will put 2 and 2 together which excludes you of course.

1. You don't have a 7 to 1 advantage in artillery, the real average number is 3 to 1.

2. The Ukrainians have learned to counter your artillery advantage with drones.

3. The advancing troops always lose more people than the defenders.

4. Furthermore, you are military degenerates who advance with complete disregard for the lives of your own soldiers. Your MO is:

- dumb, primitive and criminal meat assaults.

- lack of support from tanks, IFVs and other fighting vehicles providing cover for the infantry.

- lack of, or even refusal from medical evacuation teams to bring the wounded to safety.

This is how you lose insane number of combatants. Since October 2024, you're losing around 2,000 a day, and before then 1,500 a day.

I did the math Igor. You do yours. Or better yet, tell your superiors to come up with a better narrative (although, that would require some balls, so I stand corrected).

[PaulInZurich]

Admittedly changing the subject, could EU membership for Ukraine combined with a commitment that Ukraine would not join NATO serve as a pathway to end the war? The EU might just save money in the long run. It would have to subsidize the Ukrainian economy to raise it to EU standards. But the Europeans wouldn't be spending money on a senseless war.

Ukraine had zero chance to join NATO after Crimeea was invaded. NATO would not allow a new country to join that has major territorial disputes with a non NATO country that is a major power as well. Let's not forget you need all NATO members to agree to a new joiner.

[Blood Red]

Currently, there are over 800,000 Russian casualties. Do the math.

Comical. I bet you also believe Zelensky's number of 35 K for Ukrainian casualties that he stated a while back.

Like I said, this is a war where the main mode of killing is by ARTILLERY. The Russians have a 7 to 1 advantage in artillery, and even a 10 to 1 in some places. Do the math which side will lose more men. You're a dumbass and delusional so it's pointless telling that to you, but anyone with half a brain will put 2 and 2 together which excludes you of course.

[Tiny 12]

3. Your disrespectful joke about Ukrainian MIAs being missed because they'd left their country is on you.

That absolutely was not a joke. It's the reality. Please see this:

https://apnews.com/article/deserters...d593363c9e5ea0

And these men are not cowards.

[Xpartan]

Well, the $200,000 bounty is a bargain, if you believe the Pentagon's estimate of Russian war dead is reasonable, like Blood Red and I do. The $65.9 billion the USA has provided Ukraine in military aid since 2022 works out to over $500,000 per Russian war death. You might more than double that if you include aid from the Europeans.

Seriously, your link says, "The White House said in 2021 it had "low to moderate confidence" in the claims" the bounties existed. And the USA armed Mujahideen against Russia in Afghanistan years ago. That didn't work out too well.

Hopefully someday Russia and the USA will be on the same side again in the war against terrorism.

The US and Europe are helping Ukraine to defend its country from a military aggression.

Russians paid Afghan terrorists to kill US servicemen for spite.

This should give a pause even to Russophiles with a great deal of moral flexibility like yourself.

[Xpartan]

You're comparing Russian casualties, which include people who were wounded or injured, to Ukrainian deaths. And no, not all of those wounds and injuries were "grave. " Where did the 250,000 to 300,000 estimate for deaths and MIA come from? I don't know about Russia, but seriously doubt that all those 35,000 Ukrainian MIA's are dead. Some are part of the 6 million Ukrainians who left their country because of this never ending war.

1. There are around 2 wounded for 1 dead estimated for the Russians and 4-5 wounded for 1 dead among the Ukrainians. Currently, there are over 800,000 Russian casualties. Do the math.

2. The dead estimates come from the Ukrainian, British and US security agencies. I've provided the links to these sources multiple times. The MIA are separate estimates, which are 50,000-100,000 for Russians and 35,000 for Ukrainians. Most MIAs turn out dead, which is a common denominator of all wars, not just this one.

3. Your disrespectful joke about Ukrainian MIAs being missed because they'd left their country is on you.

[Tiny 12]

Navalny and related matters well identify the sort of regime you advocate appeasement towards. It's thus no wonder that you make a beeline to Hiroshima.

Appeasement of the likes of Putin has been a non-starter for the West, and should continue to be so, as such promotes aggression.

I think you very likely understand the Navalny context, but choose to change the subject, while Hiroshima was already extensively litigated in the past. You persistent refusal to stay on topic can likewise be considered cowardly. But as much as you complain about that accusation, looks as though you know we are onto something.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/tu-quoque

"Cowardly. " I get it. You have a tough time justifying an endless war against Russia that will result in the deaths of hundreds of thousands, so you use that Ad Hominem crap to go after the messenger. Do you think Navalny's death is part of the justification to conduct proxy warfare against Russia forever?

There was an article in the Financial Times the other day about Nayib Bukele, president of El Salvador. He has the highest approval rating of any world leader. And yes, members of his political opposition have died on his watch. The leader with the second highest approval rating is Vladimir Putin. The FT may have overstated his level of approval among Russians, but it's certainly higher than that of Biden, Harris or Trump among Americans.

The world as it exists may not meet your ideal. Trying to change it so it does will cost a lot of money, result in a lot of deaths, and make the world a more dangerous place. And it will never be successful.

...Russia's bombardments of Mariupol (that killed at least TENS of thousands of civilians).

I don't believe that. Yeah, a lot died, but not tens of thousands if you're referring to civilians.

If Russia wanted a land bridge to Crimea, it had to take Mariupol. The detonation of the bomb at Hiroshima above the residential and commercial center of the city, and specific targeting of residential areas of Dresden were in a league of their own. I don't believe that was the case with Mariupol, although you'd know better than I would. Please feel free to reply if you don't mind quoqing.