Stupid Shit in Kyiv

[AntonySun1996]

I am still expecting China to occupy Russian territory in the Far East, claiming it to be "historically Chinese" . Like Putler did with Crimea.

Russian Far East is already basically taken over by China economically, so I highly doubt that move would be necessary.

Last time I went to Vladivostok every working girl was taken good care of by Chinese guys.

[Reiner Otto]

And let's not forget that China is standing by ready to pick up any juicy pieces that might fall their way in a Russian collapse!

I am still expecting China to occupy Russian territory in the Far East, claiming it to be "historically Chinese" . Like Putler did with Crimea.

[Sirioja]

I get it. You don't like Putin but like Russia. I despise the Nazi regime in Kiev but I have nothing but love and respect for the ordinary Ukrainian people dying and struggling.

Maybe too much corruption, but is Zelensky who has balls to fight versus Putin and Trump, a nazi? And he is still fully legal according to Ukrainian constitution and supported by majority, when Ukrainians know no other would have resisted since more than 4 years. In Russia, most Russians are so blind, fucked by Putin, paying inflation and counting dead, same than Americans fucked by Trump, when not Russia war but only Putin war, same than Trump in Iran. Putin just dreaming of USSR again when he was a nobody in KGB, like Trump wants Greenland, Venezuela and others. 2 dangerous megaloman.

[Jmsuttr]

As with many things, Russia has a variety of propaganda narratives, crafted for different audiences, but all designed to provide "justification" for what they were going to do anyway. For those inclined to be persuaded by historical arguments, they have a narrative ready to go. For those persuadable by the "de-Nazification" trope, they've got that covered. Same with those who might be sympathetic to narratives centered around Russia as the defender of traditional values against the decadent West. Oh, and I'd be remiss in leaving out the dreaded specter of NATO encroaching on what Russia views as its geopolitical personal space.

Russia really doesn't care if reality and empirical evidence contradict any of these narratives because they can easily switch between them, or play "mix and match" as needed. Just taking history, as one example, if you go back far enough you can make the argument that all of Russia belongs to Mongolia as Moscow was a vassal under Genghis Khan. In addition, Kyiv predates Moscow by centuries, and Ukrainian language, tradition, and culture are senior to those of Russia. Even the name "Russia" itself is derived (some would say appropriated) from the older Kyivan Rus.

During the Age of Empires national borders changed with every significant war and alliance (often by marriage between royal families). Arguably that age came to an end after the World Wars of the 20th Century, although Russia either didn't get the memo or refused to acknowledge it. After the fall of the Tsar and the end of the Russian Empire, Ukraine declared independence and the newly empowered Bolshevik rulers of the USSR (Russian Empire with new branding) fought to pull them back in. Then, after the fall of the Soviet Union, Ukraine declared independence again, but this time Russia lacked either the strength or the will to prevent it. Chechnya was tragically not as fortunate.

From 1991 to 2014, Russia had ample opportunity to lay out any supposed legal or historical claims they may have had with respect to portions of the newly independent Ukraine. Those claims could have been raised in any number of forums, not least the United Nations itself. In stark contrast, there were a number of international agreements and documents in which Russia explicitly recognized the borders of the independent post-1991 Ukraine. In fact, it's telling that Russia entered into a lease agreement with Ukraine that allowed them to maintain a naval presence in Sevastopol. One doesn't lease one's own property. The execution of a lease agreement is an explicit recognition, factually and legally, that the property is owned by another.

One further quick narrative debunking: the so-called NATO impingement and implied threat. It's remarkable that so many who should know better simply swallow Russia's baseless assertion that Ukraine was on the cusp of joining NATO. That assertion ignores the fact that it takes unanimous consent of every existing NATO member to admit a new country. Before Russia's act of aggression in their invasion of Ukraine, they had a firm clique of NATO countries that could be relied upon to block membership. Again, you have to think back to the pre-invasion geopolitical landscape. France and Germany would probably have blocked Ukraine to prevent "destabilization" while Russia-friendly countries like Hungary, Bulgaria, and Slovakia would have blocked membership just because Moscow asked them to. There were other factors weighing against Ukraine but, without needing to get into those weeds, suffice it to say that the whole "Ukraine in NATO" narrative is one giant red herring.

Bottom line: Russia wants Ukraine because that's the only way they can start reconstituting their lost Empire. Belarus is a de facto client state and, if they can get Ukraine, then the Baltics would most likely be next on the agenda. Because the Imperial Mindset is alive and well in Russia, and not just with Putin, it was only a matter of time until the attempt to conquer Ukraine was made. In the Russky Mir view, Russia is entitled to whatever it can take (or retake) by force. Unfortunately for Putin, his sycophants overestimated his strength and underestimated that of Ukraine. That miscalculation may very well result in the downfall of Putin himself and may also be the final nail in the coffin of Russian Imperialism.

Can't happen soon enough, IMO.

P.S. And let's not forget that China is standing by ready to pick up any juicy pieces that might fall their way in a Russian collapse!

[Paulie97]

I get it. You don't like Putin but like Russia. I despise the Nazi regime in Kiev but I have nothing but love and respect for the ordinary Ukrainian people dying and struggling.

You say you respect the Ukrainian people but call their government Nazi. Yet their national hero that you call Nazi, Bandera, has seventy-four percent approval. And he wasn't even a Nazi, but an ulta nationalist who was ultimately imprisoned by the Nazis. You can't have it both ways. Why do you "love and respect" all these "Nazi" lovers?

[Paulie97]

You have to resort to selective quoting because you cannot address the points I make.

As I said, the brightest of red lines regarding NATO expansion was Ukraine. Keep bringing up Finland or other irrelevant stuff.

Ukraine will NEVER join NATO. Write this down.

You rarely make any "points" to address. Calling something irrelevant, a coup, or Nazi doesn't make it so. Prognostications aren't "points. " You don't even know the difference between points and assertions.

[Paulie97]

Fringe group. Yeah. Do you know who Stephan Bandera is? Do you know he is a national hero in Ukraine?

As for how popular the corrupt failed comedian / actor is, let him hold free and fair elections and we shall find out.

Bandera wasn't a Nazi. He was a Ukrainian nationalist who briefly saw the Nazis as a temporary ally against the Soviets, but they later imprisoned him in Sachsenhausen. His movement was fractured, and while some factions committed atrocities, that's not the same as Nazi ideology. And Ukraine's current government, led by a Jewish president whose family lost members in the Holocaust, doesn't reflect 1940's nationalism.

Folks take note that Blood Red completely ignored my points about Nazi groups in present day Russia, some of which are fighting in Ukraine.

He also ignored the point that election postponement is common during war, while he ignored my points about Putin's murders and imprisonment of his political opponents. He in the past has insisted here that Alexi Navalny died of natural causes.

Blood Red cries about "selective quoting" but completely ignored the majority of my points. That's quite hypocritical.

Current polls show Zelensky's approval rating at about 56% which is strong support.

[Blood Red]

I would also prefer peace for Ukrainians, but we all know Putin attacked them, after he robbed Crimea, not respecting what he signed, so we can't trust him, when I and millions don t see Zelensky as a nazi, but we see Putin as a dictator and war criminal, when I love beautiful Russia, but hate Putin.

I get it. You don't like Putin but like Russia. I despise the Nazi regime in Kiev but I have nothing but love and respect for the ordinary Ukrainian people dying and struggling.

[Blood Red]

Zelensky is serving under martial law as elections are suspended during wartime. This is a common practice that is consistent with the Ukrainian constitution. It's also ironic that you question legitimacy while Putin has murdered or jailed his most credible political opposition.

And calling Ukraine's government Nazi is pathetic. Zelensky is Jewish, and his family lost members in the Holocaust. Azov is a fringe group, and polls show Ukrainians strongly support their government and president. Russia has its own Nazi problem, with groups like Rusich fighting in Ukraine.

Also the "I respect the people but not the government" line is a lazy false dichotomy. The Ukrainian people strongly support their government, so your fake respect is just empty words typed from safety.

Fringe group. Yeah. Do you know who Stephan Bandera is? Do you know he is a national hero in Ukraine?

As for how popular the corrupt failed comedian / actor is, let him hold free and fair elections and we shall find out.

[Blood Red]

The "not one inch eastward" assurance was verbal, limited to East Germany during unification talks, and never written into the Two Plus Four Treaty or any binding agreement. Also cut the spin BS. Many former Eastern Block countries freely and gleefully expanded into NATO because they reject your way of life.

You have to resort to selective quoting because you cannot address the points I make.

As I said, the brightest of red lines regarding NATO expansion was Ukraine. Keep bringing up Finland or other irrelevant stuff.

Ukraine will NEVER join NATO. Write this down.

[Sirioja]

Putin dream to make again USSR. He didn't respect what he signed. We can t trust him, same than for Trump.

When he was a just nothing in KGB under USSR, he fantazy to create again, being the new Staline.

[Sirioja]

I have nothing but respect for Ukrainians. They are brave and fight valiantly with honor and dignity. I am opposed to the filthy Nazi regime in Kiev and the beggar in Kiev whose term has long expired.

I would like to see a neutral, prosperous Ukraine, like it was before the western backed coup in 2014. When Ukraine was intact. When Crimea was with Ukraine. When there was no war.

I would also prefer peace for Ukrainians, but we all know Putin attacked them, after he robbed Crimea, not respecting what he signed, so we can't trust him, when I and millions don t see Zelensky as a nazi, but we see Putin as a dictator and war criminal, when I love beautiful Russia, but hate Putin.

[Paulie97]

I have nothing but respect for Ukrainians. They are brave and fight valiantly with honor and dignity. I am opposed to the filthy Nazi regime in Kiev and the beggar in Kiev whose term has long expired.

Zelensky is serving under martial law as elections are suspended during wartime. This is a common practice that is consistent with the Ukrainian constitution. It's also ironic that you question legitimacy while Putin has murdered or jailed his most credible political opposition.

And calling Ukraine's government Nazi is pathetic. Zelensky is Jewish, and his family lost members in the Holocaust. Azov is a fringe group, and polls show Ukrainians strongly support their government and president. Russia has its own Nazi problem, with groups like Rusich fighting in Ukraine.

Also the "I respect the people but not the government" line is a lazy false dichotomy. The Ukrainian people strongly support their government, so your fake respect is just empty words typed from safety.

[Paulie97]

Nice selective quoting.

Read up on history. How many times did NATO expand post 1991? How many expansions did the Russians tolerate, despite the assurance that there would be no NATO expansion before the SU collapsed

The "not one inch eastward" assurance was verbal, limited to East Germany during unification talks, and never written into the Two Plus Four Treaty or any binding agreement. Also cut the spin BS. Many former Eastern Block countries freely and gleefully expanded into NATO because they reject your way of life.

[Reiner Otto]

Can any Pro Ukrainian here honestly answer that?

No. Only the Ukrainian citizen can. And they do it with rifles in their hands.

Only minor difference between Hitler and Putin:

When Hitler brought Sudetenland to Germany, the Wehrmacht was greeted with flowers.