Stupid Shit in Kyiv

[Paulie97]

The working link is found in this post, post number 4595.

Here's the quote again.

[Paulie97]

The first time BR quoted Defense Secretary Austin he plainly asserted that he said "nothing about Ukraine winning," then went on with his usual rambling predictions.

This reminds me what Biden's defense secretary said a while after the Russian invasion in 2022. He said the purpose of supporting Ukraine was to make sure Russia pays a heavy price and is not able to do this again. Basically, he said the same thing as you, to make Russia bleed. He said nothing about Ukraine winning. So going back to what I said earlier, no doubt Russia will bleed but Ukraine will become a dysfunctional rump state with Russia winning an ugly victory.

Then once called out he changed his claim as to what Austin never said to "winning and defeating Russia and regaining the territory they lost. " Caught red handed he then shifted to a much narrower claim. That while any concern for Ukraine at all contradicts his refrain that the West just wants to see Russia bleed. Even the big goalpost shift doesn't save his larger argument.

As for the Austin quote, as I said, he made no mention of Ukraine winning and defeating Russia and regaining the territory they lost.

But this twit wants to accuse others of evasion and dishonesty as he's caught lying about what he said the first time. You see the receipts. ROFL.

Here's the actual April 2022 Austin quotes again:

"We want to see Ukraine remain a sovereign country, a democratic country able to protect its sovereign territory. We want to see Russia weakened to the point where it can't do things like invade Ukraine. ".

"The first step in winning is believing that you can win," Austin said. "We believe that they can win if they have the right equipment, the right support, and we're going to do everything we can. To ensure that gets to them. ".

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/b...in-war-efforts

[Sirioja]

When we are not under Putin propaganda, Putin didn't respect what he signed and robbed Crimea, now wants Donbass and try to fuck elections in Georgia, Moldavia, Romania, attacked Leipzig, try in Poland, Baltics, but all is because of others, for blind. And Putin is a criminal and dictator in Russia. Just facts.

[Paulie97]

The Russian plan or objective was to quickly get a peace deal. And that almost happened in Istanbul in March 2022, until the British and Americans hijacked it. If you consider the Russian peace terms back then and what they would offer now, the difference is day and night. But that's okay for the EU. As long as it's Ukrainians dying. Remember what Lindsey Graham said? All these people are monsters.

You of course leave out the military cap demands = hand Putin the keys and hope he doesn't come back for the furniture.

[Paulie97]

I don't know. The way Russians have been dying lately, it very well may be Puting fighting to the last Russian.

Clearly Russia is a much larger country, but not 10 x larger. The meat will run out one day.

Yes, or at least to the last Russia willing to fight.

[Paulie97]

The west does want Ukraine to win, but Ukraine cannot and won't win. I think the ones with brains know that. Once again, if the EU really wants Ukraine to win, let them join in and put BOOTS ON THE GROUND. Why don't they do that?.

Here you go again with the predictions that keep failing. And again, about the whole Cold War was fought through proxies so I guess no one wanted to win then either. Regardless I'm glad we did. Wink.

As for the Austin quote, as I said, he made no mention of Ukraine winning

He certainly did. Here's the quote again:

"We want to see Ukraine remain a sovereign country, a democratic country able to protect its sovereign territory. We want to see Russia weakened to the point where it can't do things like invade Ukraine. ".

It's a win for Ukraine if they remain a sovereign and democratic country. And earlier in the same speech he emphatically said what you insist he never said:

"The first step in winning is believing that you can win," Austin said. "We believe that they can win if they have the right equipment, the right support, and we're going to do everything we can. To ensure that gets to them. ".

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/b...in-war-efforts

Just be a man, rather than a gutless keyboard weasel and admit that you stepped on your dick, but you can't do that, just isn't in your DNA. This is my final reply. You've had every chance to engage with the actual points. The receipts are still here, while more gaslighting and fallacies was exposed in my posts today.

Below that you'll find links to my recent posts that contain rebuttals to the same and more. .

[Sirioja]

It's called the Islamic Republic of Iran. Islamic and Islamist aren't the same thing. Please educate yourself.

Iran is led by mollahs. Aren't they extremist Islamists? Learn a bit about Iran since many years, after Pahlavi.

[Paulie97]

It's called the Islamic Republic of Iran. Islamic and Islamist aren't the same thing. Please educate yourself.

Please explain how calling Iran Islamic or Islamist either one is "racist. " Iran's govt is theocratic by design while none of that has anything to do with race.

Why did you add in the 'Islamist' before Iran? Racist much?

[Paulie97]

You must resort to selective quoting when you want to weasel out of answering my questions. Everyone can see that.

The receipts are right here.

Below that you'll find links to my recent posts that contain rebuttals to the same and more. .

[Paulie97]

What you fail to understand is that great powers have certain doctrines or red lines. What the fuck do you think the United States would do if Mexico joins a Chinese military alliance? Sit and twiddle their thumbs? The USA also has the Monroe Doctrine. Read up on it. Russia was never going to allow Ukraine into NATO or to not be neutral. You may disagree with that and so can Ukraine. But any person who knew anything knew that Ukraine seeking to join NATO would result in it getting wrecked, which is happening now. What's sad is that you yourself admit that Ukraine will never join NATO. Even the drugged out clown is resigned to that fact. So again I ask, was neutrality so bad for Ukraine?

First, the Mexico analogy actually backfires if you push it — Mexico joining a Chinese alliance would be Mexico's sovereign choice, and if the US used military force to stop it, that would be rightly condemned as imperialism, not justified as doctrine. Citing the Monroe Doctrine as precedent doesn't defend Russia's invasion, it just proves great powers have a history of bullying smaller neighbors, which is what you're trying to excuse.

Second, the "it was going to get wrecked anyway" line is a justification problem. Predicting that defiance would lead to punishment doesn't make the punishment moral — that's just restating that might makes right. Nobody accepts "she knew she'd get hurt if she didn't comply" as a moral defense in other contexts.

Third, Zelensky's made early-war offers to declare neutrality — and Russia kept escalating demands. That suggests NATO was the pretext, not the actual cause.

Fourth, it's a big stretch to say that Russia is even entitled to a sphere of influence with an economy about the size of Texas. Losing wars like the Cold War have consequences. You aren't a great power, and can't even subjugate Ukraine.

Are you really this dishonest that you cannot admit that the EU wants to use Ukraine to make Russia bleed?

You are in fact really so dishonest as to continually lie about the content that others post. You'd never do any of that with me sitting in front of you. This is your whole game, which is to create straw man caricatures, attach them to your opponent then knock them down. Eventually the opponent gets tired of the bad faith style, leaves, then you can claim victory, while everyone following along half way closely knows better. Yes the West wants Russia to bleed so they'll change their mind about their maximalist demands. I've stated that many times. And if anyone is being used it's the West. Ukraine wants to fight for their country and we are helping them. Your continual refusal to acknowledge Ukraine's agency won't make it disappear.

If they really want to help Ukraine "win", why don't they put their own boots on the ground? They are happy that it's Ukrainians dying and not their own soldiers, which is disgusting and immoral and pure evil.

This is another round of emotionally charged tripe that completely ignores that Ukraine wants to fight. What is "disgusting, immoral, and evil" is the country that invaded Ukraine, deported their children, and has engaged in constant terror tactics and other war crimes against civilians. Putin is wanted in the Hague. Why not talk about that as opposed to constantly calling Zelensky a clown, a guy with balls a keyboard clown like yourself can only dream about. Offering aid to allies at war without committing troops is a most common practice is geopolitics, think Cold War, Iran and it's proxies, US and Israel. It's hilarious that you call anyone "thick. " You shouldn't have slept through all your history classes.

Are you really this thick? I have said many many times so pay attention again. UKRAINE joining NATO was the brightest of red lines. Not Finland.

You're still a fish flopping around on the shore. Since there's no complaints about Finland then it's not about NATO proximity or borders with the same but sphere of influence, including theft of Ukrainian land for economic advantages.

[Paulie97]

So you agree that all this talk about Russia going on to take the Baltics and Eastern Europe is all propaganda by the EU and the west. That's good, we are on the same page then with respect to that.

I see you are still trying to prop up your straw man. I said analysts debate Russia's long term goals, while no serious ones argue that Russia is in a position to expand beyond Ukraine anytime soon. I never said the Baltics talk is all propaganda. You invented that. Western media argues with itself. Russian state media can't.

You ignored all my questions and resorted to selective quoting, all can see that.

This says the guy who just got caught red handed lying about a quote from Defense Secretary Austin to erect a straw man argument. And yes I ignored your questions about my personal background, my nationality and where I live. Those were distractions that had nothing to do with the discussion.

Selective quoting is standard practice in online debate. Misuse is the issue, not the method. This below is the post you completely dodged whining about "selective quoting. " There's a load of content rebutting BS you are still repeating as if you've never been refuted. You won't answer the post because you can't. Do you really think you are fooling anyone here?

This isn't an argument, it's a prediction

As for Mendel, I just posted what she said. I don't know if what she said is 100% accurate. But I do agree with her that Ukraine is committing suicide and at the end of this war, Ukraine will die as a nation and will be left a dysfunctional rump state that will never ever join NATO (another thing you also agree with me about).

On Mendel it's hilarious that you want to try and disassociate yourself from her now since it's obvious you can't answer my rebuttal. Why post her article if you didn't think it was very valuable? She has the same prediction as you. Where's she better is, as unlike you, she tried to defend it and I rebutted her with facts, analysis, and reasoning. Do you really think that no one notices that you refuse to answer my posts?

Here's my response to the Iuliia Mendel article...

Predictions aren't arguments.

You do have some bedfellows in the US, guys who publish on YT like Mearsheimer, Macgregor, and Napolitano. All have been constantly predicting the imminent demise of Ukraine since the start of the war. Ukraine keeps proving you and them wrong. You keep rehashing a failed script.

On NATO I said "No, not anytime soon" which is obvious. Ukraine would never get 32 votes at this time. That's a timing claim, not a prophecy.

[Blood Red]

And what has been done on the same day of the proposed amendment? NATO sent a full member states delegation to Kiev and the prosecution opened the alleged bribery case against that member of Rada.

In 2021 Ukraine chose Plan be, jacked up salaries to attract people into the AFU, took arms from the Biden administration even when explicitly it was asked not to do so in Summer of 2021. By February 8, 2022 the negotiations collapsed and March 8 was set as intrusion by the AFU into Donetsk. Given no choice Russia acted preemptively with ill devised haste plan and only about 80,000 active troops.

Remember, Ukraine will always choose a loose-loose scenario over win-win one. The national motto is 'You die today, I die tomorrow'.

The Russian plan or objective was to quickly get a peace deal. And that almost happened in Istanbul in March 2022, until the British and Americans hijacked it. If you consider the Russian peace terms back then and what they would offer now, the difference is day and night. But that's okay for the EU. As long as it's Ukrainians dying. Remember what Lindsey Graham said? All these people are monsters.

[Blood Red]

This one was so ridiculous I skipped it, but let's expose it anyway for grins. BR wants us to believe that the West doesn't care if Ukraine prevails or not, as long as the poor little victim Russia bleeds.

But here's Defense Secretary Austin's quote in full, from that April 25, 2022 press conference in Poland: "We want to see Ukraine remain a sovereign country, a democratic country able to protect its sovereign territory. We want to see Russia weakened to the point where it can't do things like invade Ukraine. " Therefore BR pulls out one half of a quote then runs with a wholly false framing.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/b...in-war-efforts

That while you wrenched my quote about Russian suffering out of context. The aim of Russian suffering is of course to encourage them to back off their maximalist demands and settle for terms that preserve Ukrainian defense capability and sovereignty.

You also have another false dilemma going, as wanting Russia weakened while also wanting Ukraine to win their sovereignty aren't incompatible goals. And even from a cold strategic standpoint a Ukraine that survives is in our national interest.

The west does want Ukraine to win, but Ukraine cannot and won't win. I think the ones with brains know that. Once again, if the EU really wants Ukraine to win, let them join in and put BOOTS ON THE GROUND. Why don't they do that?

As for the Austin quote, as I said, he made no mention of Ukraine winning and defeating Russia and regaining the territory they lost. Because he knew that won't happen. The goal was and is to make Russia bleed, using poor Ukrainians as a battering ram. If you cannot admit that, then you are clearly dishonest. Ukraine will never regain the territory they have lost, and will lose more territory the longer this goes on.

[Blood Red]

Selective quoting is standard practice for focusing on substance, especially when cutting through repetitive claims and personal distractions. I identified and refuted your key points. The audience can verify that themselves by linking back to your post through mine. Here's my post again if you decide to try and tackle it.

You must resort to selective quoting when you want to weasel out of answering my questions. Everyone can see that.

[Blood Red]

Repeating these emotionally charged falsehoods over and over while ignoring all the rebuttals presented to you over your time here will never make them true. NATO enlargement was never forced on Ukraine it was Ukraine's own sovereign choice to seek membership, repeatedly reaffirmed through its elected governments and written into its constitution, and no country has a veto over another's alliance choices.

What you fail to understand is that great powers have certain doctrines or red lines. What the fuck do you think the United States would do if Mexico joins a Chinese military alliance? Sit and twiddle their thumbs? The USA also has the Monroe Doctrine. Read up on it. Russia was never going to allow Ukraine into NATO or to not be neutral. You may disagree with that and so can Ukraine. But any person who knew anything knew that Ukraine seeking to join NATO would result in it getting wrecked, which is happening now. What's sad is that you yourself admit that Ukraine will never join NATO. Even the drugged out clown is resigned to that fact. So again I ask, was neutrality so bad for Ukraine?

Framing Putin's invasion as a justified response to a "red line" erases that Russia launched a full-scale invasion of a non-threatening neighbor, which is the actual proximate cause of the deaths not Western policy. And the claim that the West wants Ukrainians dying to "bleed Russia" ignores that Ukraine itself chose to fight rather than surrender, and the West is the one supplying the aid keeping Ukraine's defense possible at all.

Are you really this dishonest that you cannot admit that the EU wants to use Ukraine to make Russia bleed? If they really want to help Ukraine "win", why don't they put their own boots on the ground? They are happy that it's Ukrainians dying and not their own soldiers, which is disgusting and immoral and pure evil.

Also, if NATO is the primary threat then why the muted response to Finland joining? But the issue isn't NATO at all, but in Russia's desire for a sphere of influence and particularly resources that belong to Ukraine.

Are you really this thick? I have said many many times so pay attention again. UKRAINE joining NATO was the brightest of red lines. Not Finland. Hell, even Georgia was. See how their little stint at trying to join NATO turned out in 2008.