Stupid Shit in Kyiv

[Paulie97]

The polls actually weren't conducted by the occupiers, but did occur in occupied territory. Some were conducted by respected organizations like Gallup and Pew Research.

Please say you are kidding us. LOL Who cares who the "respected organizations" are, as the polls were still conducted under occupation and under a cloud of intimidation.

See here for info about polls in Crimea.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_C...tus_referendum

The pre-2014 polls are a mixed bag, but post referendum polls indicate a preference for being a part of Russia.

Wikipedia isn't a source but a bathroom wall. Anyone can post content there, and though moderated, this can be sketchy and slow to come. The Tartar question is often ignored. These favor Ukraine, and have often been intimidated since Stalin purged them from Crimea in the early 1940's. But regardless, anyone in Crimea or the Donbass that wants to be part of Russia doesn't have far to travel. Irrespective of specious polls and votes at gunpoint, the annexations remain illegal.

https://www.eeas.europa.eu/node/112989_fr

[Tiny 12]

Polling data from the occupiers can be discarded.

The polls actually weren't conducted by the occupiers, but did occur in occupied territory. Some were conducted by respected organizations like Gallup and Pew Research.

We've discussed Donbas before:

Please see this article from 2019.

https://www.kyivpost.com/post/7557

"Only 5.1 percent of people living in the Russia-controlled parts of Donetsk and Luhansk regions want Ukraine to regain control over the territories. Half (50.9 percent) want a union with Russia and another 13.4 percent said the region should accede to Russia with a "special status." For the whole of Donbas, including its Ukraine-controlled areas, 49.6 percent want it to become part of Russia, with another 13.3 percent choosing such a scenario with a "special status" for Donbas. A fifth (19.2 percent) see Donbas as part of Ukraine."

So apparently 50.9% wanted to live in a Russian oblast, and another 13.4% in something like a Russian territory (e.g. like Puerto Rico in the USA). Only 5.1% wanted to live in a Ukrainian controlled oblast.

See here for info about polls in Crimea.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_C...tus_referendum

The pre-2014 polls are a mixed bag, but post referendum polls indicate a preference for being a part of Russia.

Russian as it is now, will never stop meddling in UA politics, they can't even stop meddling in US and EU politics.

Good point. I believe you're probably right.

[Paulie97]

Great job liberals.

And how many times have you been presented with the fact that the majority of American conservative Republicans support aid to Ukraine? A dozen? That applies to both voters and lawmakers. But yea, turn it into a conservative versus liberal thing when you don't get your way. That's easy enough I suppose, though that false dichotomy has gotten pretty dated.

[Paulie97]

Until the last Ukrainian? I know that's sick, but it sounds like that's what the neocons, the NATO warmongers and Zelensky wants.

No NATO just wants Putin to stop prosecuting a genocidal war on Ukraine, murdering civilians with precision weapons, deporting their children to re-indoctrination camps, that kind of stuff. As to the Ukrainians, they want to fight to preserve their identity.

Sooner rather than later, Ukraine will run out of men to put on the front line. Then what?

Sooner rather than later Putin will run out of ethnic canon fodder from the poorer regions while having fewer and fewer from other regions willing to fight. Then what? We've already seen one exodus of 200,000 young Russian men as they fled for the border, and there's a rebellion among Russian mothers and wives.

https://www.chathamhouse.org/2023/12...lized-soldiers

They are already sending teenagers and old men. What's next? Women? Horrific.

This is propaganda and easy to say in a monger forum. Prove it with a reliable source, and go ahead include Russian state media. You are either in the camp directly or a far right isolationist. There's actually not much difference between the two though. Teenage adults yes, "old men" no outside of volunteers. Ukraine currently has 688,000 active troops, 650,000 in reserve and a larger pool to tap into. But yea, it's easy to talk. Link us to your sources.

https://www.businessinsider.com/ukra...-of-war-2023-4

I don't think Putin wants anything more than the 4 new territories + Crimea as part of Russia.

Your opinion and two dollars will buy you a cup of coffee. Putin has been very clear that he believes the Ukraine belongs to Russia, while he doesn't have any "new" territories. The occupations are illegal, while he ran from both Kyiv and Kharkiv with his tail between his legs and is on his heels in Kherson.

But Ukraine must be neutral also, that's what started this whole thing.

What "started this whole thing" is Putin's imperialistic designs and decades long belly aching over the loss of the USSR, along with Ukraine's commitment to democracy which of course he sees as a threat. Also, before you go there, no promise against NATO expansion was ever made. That's another point here that has been covered at least a dozen times.

https://hls.harvard.edu/today/there-...-enlarge-nato/

And for the you. S to stop meddling in Ukrainian politics as well. I mean that's how this whole thing started in 2014 when the you. S removed the democratically elected leader.

Hogwash, while this has been refuted at least a dozen times on this thread over the last 18 months. The democratically elected national legislature removed a corrupt Russian puppet leader, and all within the provisions of the Ukrainian constitution. NEXT.

That's how this will end, a ceasefire without a peace agreement, a frozen conflict, much like the Koreas.

You know what they say about opinions, while that's all your prediction is. But the two situations are different on many grounds, primarily because we are talking about Russia, a country that habitually breaks agreements while they have expansionist ambitions. Ukraine is fighting against genocide and to preserve their identity, and as long as they are willing to do so the west should support them.

[Elvis 2008]

Given the size, strength and budget of the Orc army vs Ukraine, the orcs are by no means kicking ass, in terms of lives lost, economic destruction and equipment losses, Russia is the one getting pummeled.

And the most convincing part of that if anyone in government shares document showing that line is bullshit not only will they be put in jail but their boss will be put in jail.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...-jack-teixeira

He is accused of sharing classified military documents on Discord about Russia's invasion of Ukraine and other national security topics.

Authorities allege he began sharing classified documents in a Discord chat group, including typing out documents and sharing photographs, and continued to do so even after being warned by superiors about his activities in accessing intelligence information.

Teixeira allegedly bragged about the scope of information to which he had access, writing that what he had presented was "less than half of what's available".

"All of the shit I've told you guys I'm not supposed to," federal prosecutors have alleged he said.

https://www.zerohedge.com/military/a...r-removed-post

One of the documents released by Teixeira was an intelligence assessment that predicted that Ukraine would fall "well short" of its goals in the counteroffensive. American officials attempted to downplay those findings in May before Kiev launched a counteroffensive the following month.

End of link.

It is amazing how much government shit is classified and why it is. In this case, it is pretty obvious documents were classified to keep the American people in the dark about how throwing money into the pit that is Ukraine is a complete waste.

Russia is the one getting pummeled? Yeah, sure.

[Paulie97]

Polling data from the occupiers can be discarded.

Russian as it is now, will never stop meddling in UA politics, they can't even stop meddling in US and EU politics.

These are the facts. While Putin has been clear from the beginning that he believes Ukraine has no right to exist and should be absorbed into Russia. He wants it all. This is based on spurious historical analysis that I refuted on this thread back in the Spring of 2022. Though there's one big problem with internet discussions and debates, as there's a perceived need for a complete redo every time a new person enters the thread. LOL I'm not willing to invest my limited time that way, though here's some decent sources for those interested, while many more can be found in Google.

https://www.rochester.edu/newscenter...-putin-513812/

This is a podcast you can access at the top right of the page.

https://globalaffairs.org/commentary...istory-ukraine

[Blood Red]

And how many combatants and civilians have been killed or injured during that period? Hundreds of thousands?

Until the last Ukrainian? I know that's sick, but it sounds like that's what the neocons, the NATO warmongers and Zelensky wants.

This will go on indefinitely, as long as the two sides have the will, the arms and the young men to continue.

Sooner rather than later, Ukraine will run out of men to put on the front line. Then what? They are already sending teenagers and old men. What's next? Women? Horrific.

The West needs to put pressure on both countries to end the war. Ukraine should give up the idea it can return to pre-2014 borders. It won't happen, and in any event based on polling data the majority in the occupied areas (Crimea and Russian occupied Donbas) preferred to be affiliated with Russia instead of Ukraine before the recent hostilities broke out. Russia should accept the territorial integrity and independence of the rest of the Ukraine, and stop meddling in Ukrainian politics.

I agree with all that. I don't think Putin wants anything more than the 4 new territories + Crimea as part of Russia. I really don't know what he has planned for Kharkov and Odessa. But Ukraine must be neutral also, that's what started this whole thing. And for the you. S to stop meddling in Ukrainian politics as well. I mean that's how this whole thing started in 2014 when the you. S removed the democratically elected leader.

I'm not saying the West should pull the plug on aid to Ukraine. It should however push Ukraine to the negotiating table. Russia has been willing to talk for a while, although admittedly who knows if the Kremlin is sincere.

Something like what exists in Korea, a permanent cease fire along the current lines of control, would be much, much preferable to the current situation.

That's how this will end, a ceasefire without a peace agreement, a frozen conflict, much like the Koreas.

[VinDici]

and in any event based on polling data the majority in the occupied areas (Crimea and Russian occupied Donbas) preferred to be affiliated with Russia instead of Ukraine before the recent hostilities broke out. Russia should accept the territorial integrity and independence of the rest of the Ukraine, and stop meddling in Ukrainian politics.

Polling data from the occupiers can be discarded.

Russian as it is now, will never stop meddling in UA politics, they can't even stop meddling in US and EU politics.

[Tiny 12]

This is an interactive map of areas held by Russia and the Ukraine:

https://www.nzz.ch/english/ukraine-w...ine-ld.1688087

Open the web page in two browser windows. Leave one at the current date, 6-11 December, 2023. In the second window, take the date back to 17 November, 2022.

You'll see the two sides have been stalemated for over a year. Any change in the area occupied by Russia is imperceptible.

And how many combatants and civilians have been killed or injured during that period? Hundreds of thousands?

This will go on indefinitely, as long as the two sides have the will, the arms and the young men to continue. The West needs to put pressure on both countries to end the war. Ukraine should give up the idea it can return to pre-2014 borders. It won't happen, and in any event based on polling data the majority in the occupied areas (Crimea and Russian occupied Donbas) preferred to be affiliated with Russia instead of Ukraine before the recent hostilities broke out. Russia should accept the territorial integrity and independence of the rest of the Ukraine, and stop meddling in Ukrainian politics.

I'm not saying the West should pull the plug on aid to Ukraine. It should however push Ukraine to the negotiating table. Russia has been willing to talk for a while, although admittedly who knows if the Kremlin is sincere.

Something like what exists in Korea, a permanent cease fire along the current lines of control, would be much, much preferable to the current situation.

[Blood Red]

If you want peace, just ask the Occupiers to leave Ukraine and there will be peace, it's not rocket science.

What you are suggesting is Utopian and not realistic.

While you're at it, why don't you ask the Turks to leave Cyprus, or for the Israeli's to uproot all the settlers from the west bank, I could give you many more examples.

Ukraine will have to cede territory, they are not getting the 4 new territories or Crimea back. Everyone knows that. Time to accept reality and make peace. The longer this goes on, the more difficult it will get for Ukraine. That's the reality.

[DramaFree11]

One of what "University presidents" bullshit boy?

What exactly is he wrong about?

Your mighty, invincible, peerless army was supposed to have taken Kyiv by Feb 27,2022. Remember that?

Instead, the only country you have managed to defeat is your own.

The only people you have managed to enslave is your own.

Good job!

Xman when does the truth matter to you. This is what happens when you guys play with fire, this time you helped to ruin a country. Still no negotiation, what do you guys hope to accomplish.

[VinDici]

If you want peace, just ask the Occupiers to leave Ukraine and there will be peace, it's not rocket science.

Exactly. More money or weapons won't change the outcome (a Russian victory). Just like the Himars, or the Atacms, or the F16's, or the Leopards, or the Storm Shadow didn't and won't (in case some fool is counting on the F16s to make a difference, whenever they arrive, they will quickly burn like those Leopards are burning). Etc etc. Etc. Time to make peace and end this senseless killing.

[Blood Red]

Correct, I will add everyone in the world has lost from this disaster. What a Mess and yet some want the killing to continue. Throwing money towards Ukraine will only prolong them getting their ass kicked and losing more lives / territory. Great job liberals.

Exactly. More money or weapons won't change the outcome (a Russian victory). Just like the Himars, or the Atacms, or the F16's, or the Leopards, or the Storm Shadow didn't and won't (in case some fool is counting on the F16s to make a difference, whenever they arrive, they will quickly burn like those Leopards are burning). Etc etc. Etc. Time to make peace and end this senseless killing.

[Blood Red]

They both lose. The only difference is the degree of loss.

Russia will be able to survive this. Ukraine on the other hand will get totally wrecked and will become a dysfunctional rump state that will never join NATO or the EU. So what was the point of all this from Ukraine's perspective? Those are the questions that Zelensky will have to answer one day, why did he walk away from the peace talks in Istanbul in 2022 March. So many lives would not be lost today.

[VinDici]

I've made a pretty solid claim, where is your evidence to the contrary?

You are so wrong, but when does the truth matter to a liberal.