General Info

[Member #4581]

Is the iconic FKK the central focus of authorities? To the points M88 makes, I suppose it is easier to seize assets and shut down a few large clubs to make maximal impact, but if the activity just becomes decentralized, smaller places, less organized, then they need a different mechanism to make enforcement.

[The Cane]

What will happen, though, is that clubs will do everything they can to be seen to be complying. I do think that reports of (now) illegal activities at clubs have the potential to get the club shut down. Just because only the punter is fined doesn't mean that the other parties are not involved at all; they don't want to be seen as aiding and abetting. Aiding and abetting is in general a crime if one aids and abets a crime, even if one doesn't do so oneself. Thus, the Pirate Bay has done illegal stuff, one can't openly publish ads from hit men, etc. The situation is different in countries where prostitution itself is forbidden. If it is forbidden anyway, it makes little difference what, in detail, is on offer. In Germany, though, where clubs make money legally, they have an interest in being seen to comply. I also think that it is perfectly possible that authorities will monitor boards like this one.

You and others have made some very strong points. I tend to agree with what you have said. I haven't been to the FKKs since the new law became effective, but I have decided to voluntarily refrain from reporting on BBBJs in the future. I'll just say "BJ". Of course, that means I can no longer write things like "my cum was around her mouth" or "on her lips" as that would be TMI. Sucks (pun intended), but I agree this is what should be done. So, I'll just say "BJ". Doesn't mean I didn't get a BBBJ. But, doesn't mean I did either. Let the authorities reading figure it out!

[Hessen Bub]

This seems to be the fact that readers are missing. The "enforcers" are club management. Yet, people keep droning on about entrapment, undercover female cops, and how the "law" is unenforceable. If there is to be a debate at all, it should be "Can club rules be enforced? Not "Can this new law be enforced?

Exactly. It's enough if the club bans BBBJs. And the girls stick to it as they are afraid to be kicked out.

HB.

[Mongerer88]

This seems to be the fact that readers are missing. The "enforcers" are club management. Yet, people keep droning on about entrapment, undercover female cops, and how the "law" is unenforceable. If there is to be a debate at all, it should be "Can club rules be enforced? Not "Can this new law be enforced?

Simply reading that you and all your German acquaintances continue to attend, tells me that the WGs are still "willing to please" as Sirioja puts it. But then most readers don't have the clout you and Sirioja have either, so they might go home disappointed (or end up overpaying).

Exactly. I think people here are barking up the wrong tree based on what has happened under different (yet somewhat similar) circumstances in other countries.

What would be interesting to know is whether the German government has the ability to seize assets and close a business under a Guilty Until Proven Innocent System like those that exist in many parts of the world. By the time the day in court arrives, the business is so badly damaged that the day in court is meaningless.

As I said before, we went through this in Canada when the new law was passed. There were nonsense posts about the police busting into hotel rooms and interviewing sex workers to impose jail terms and fines on johns under the illegal to buy sex (and illegal to promote by agencies) but legal to sell sex system. Of course that never happened, but the agencies and review boards made a lot of changes in advertising, details and links. The real risk was the government shutting down the agencies, not prosecuting individual buyers.

The basis for the risk was based upon the shutdowns that have occurred in the USA Of agencies that had ladies tour in multiple states. We are talking about federal government action, not states. The federal enforcement was effective, and there seems to be few agencies in the USA That operate across state lines, where many years ago there were a lot. The federal government would give immunity to a few sex workers and a smaller number of johns willing (or forced) to testify about illegal activity (particularly the crossing of state lines for commercial sex) and use that "evidence" to seize all assets of the escort service including phones and websites, but most importantly the cash. Most of these cases got settled years later with the operators getting little or no jail time, but the government kept the assets and the operations were effectively ended on the day of seizure. The many online reviews were never used as direct evidence, but one could logically conclude that reading them contributed to the decision by the federal government to do the enforcement at the beginning. Many intrastate escort services still exist now, but at least five major interstate ones were destroyed by this process.

Here is my question, and I know nothing about Germany. If German law enforcement were able to find some disgruntled workers who said that management encouraged them to do BBBJs and part of that encouragement was to avoid bad reviews from online review and discussion boards that were shown to the ladies, would that be sufficient to allow German law enforcement to seize assets and close a place pending a trial? I am not sure if German law enforcement can do that before a trial, like law enforcement in other countries can. Of course you would think that no court would accept such arguments by the government since anyone can make anything up and post it online. A competitor could do lots of online posts about BBBJs at a competitor if it thought that would cause law enforcement to shut down that competitor.

But after the new Canadian law, we saw agencies stop advertising services, stop linking to reviews, and the review boards relocate to more friendly evidentiary jurisdictions and ban the posting of details in certain circumstances. It has been effective so far, as no agencies have been shut down so far.

I could see this strategy being the reason that FKK management wants to be able to demonstrate to the government and to law enforcement that they are attempting to comply with the new law, and I would think they would deny any knowledge of online posts regarding supposed illegal activity. From a game theory perspective, an argument could be made for the advantages of no one directly reporting BBBJs online, but that is very difficult to happen with so many posters.

[SvenFKK]

Is this a fixed penalty or the maximum possible fine under the new law?

It is the maximum penalty.

[Ableyone]

Bareback sex in all the clubs is banned including BBBJ and the fine for the man is 50,000 euro.

Is this a fixed penalty or the maximum possible fine under the new law?

[McAdonis]

The club management tell all the girls they are banned from performing BBBJ.

This seems to be the fact that readers are missing. The "enforcers" are club management. Yet, people keep droning on about entrapment, undercover female cops, and how the "law" is unenforceable. If there is to be a debate at all, it should be "Can club rules be enforced? Not "Can this new law be enforced?

This is the mantra that all my German acquaintances have been telling me when I see them in the club since 1 July.

Simply reading that you and all your German acquaintances continue to attend, tells me that the WGs are still "willing to please" as Sirioja puts it. But then most readers don't have the clout you and Sirioja have either, so they might go home disappointed (or end up overpaying).

[SvenFKK]

Came across the web page of Swing-In in Rodgau. I've never been there (most reports are negative), but there is the following page, linked from the main page: https://swing-in-rodgau.de/klartext/.

This is not an official text but it is obvious that it was written by someone who knows what the law says and what it doesn't.

First, I haven't been to a club since the law came into effect.

It makes it clear that condoms must be used for oral, vaginal, or anal sex. It says, however, that for DATY and rimming no condom is needed. This makes sense; the idea is to keep the man's sperm from the inside of the woman. As such, COB and COF are not forbidden. (Of course, insertive sex doesn't mean that one has to come, but it makes sense-assuming one agrees with the law at all-that the law specifies a condom for insertive sex, rather than forbidding coming inside, which is difficult to monitor, can happen by accident, and sometimes even difficult to define.).

The law also forbids flatrate clubs. This explains why now one pays a fee and gets 8 sessions or whatever. This is interesting, and shows that the lawmakers don't really understand what is going on. The average number of sessions is probably 4 or so. Thus, at a flatrate club, the cost of a session was about the same as in the RLD. True, more were possible, but some punters might have only one or two, so on average the girls probably made MORE than in the RLD. I'm a bit surprised that this works, especially since it wasn't that long ago that the practice of paying the girls directly started, to underline the fact that they are independent entrepreneurs. OK, maybe legally it is like chips in a casino.

Also, sex with pregnant prostitutes is forbidden, as are the terms "[CodeWord123]" and "gang bang". I've never seen a club advertise "[CodeWord123]", even if it is not meant seriously. Forbidding "gang bang" appears to be due to confusion with the term "gang-bang [CodeWord123]". Yes, this exists, but not every gang bang is [CodeWord123], of course. As most swinger clubs will testify, there are women who come explicitly in order to experience a gang bang. These two terms are forbidden because they suggest that the woman doesn't have the possibility of refusal. True, of course, for [CodeWord123], but again "gang bang" is being misunderstood here.

Interestingly, it says that "FKK" is forbidden as well (in connection with prostitution), at least advertising containing it, since it would imply that the women are forced to be naked. I find this a bit strange. In other cases, a club, company, whatever can have a dress code, even if it requires or forbids things which are not forbidden or required in public. Second, nudity is required in public saunas, FKK beaches, etc. OK, the only reason to go there is because one is interested in FKK, whereas one could argue that at an FKK club the woman is interested in working as a prostitute and might not want to be nude in public, but I can't really imagine that anyone seriously objects who is otherwise comfortable to work (presumably, often nude) as a prostitute. (On the other hand, even at some FKK clubs the women aren't completely nude.) I don't see how anyone could object to girls being voluntarily naked in a club, though. This is different than the condom stuff: condoms are required, and for that reason one can't advertise AO etc. Girls are not required to be clothed. Advertising would imply that they are forced to be nude. However, nudity itself is not forbidden. So, FKK clubs will probably continue to exist. Girls who don't want to be nude could work at another club. My guess is that even if the advertising goes away, clubs will tend to have all girls nude or none nude, since FKK is a reason why many punters come.

The condom stuff has been discussed at length here, and my impression is that it is pretty clear that the clubs will do all they can to make sure it is enforced. Having said that, I don't see how bareback sex would actually be prosecuted. I don't think that a girl who agrees to it will accuse the punter, and there won't be undercover (pun intended) agents trying to trap punters. (Since only the punter is punished, undercover johns wouldn't even make sense.) This is probably similar to sex at a massage parlour which explicitly does not advertise for sex (whether or not it advertises for erotic massages), whether or not prostitution itself is legal in the country. As long as extramarital sex itself is not illegal, consenting adults can agree to have sex. The fact that it is in the context of a non-sexual service actually makes it less of a risk: it is clear that it is voluntary on both sides (at least if no additional money is involved), though of course in practice no-one would know.

What will happen, though, is that clubs will do everything they can to be seen to be complying. I do think that reports of (now) illegal activities at clubs have the potential to get the club shut down. Just because only the punter is fined doesn't mean that the other parties are not involved at all; they don't want to be seen as aiding and abetting. Aiding and abetting is in general a crime if one aids and abets a crime, even if one doesn't do so oneself. Thus, the Pirate Bay has done illegal stuff, one can't openly publish ads from hit men, etc. The situation is different in countries where prostitution itself is forbidden. If it is forbidden anyway, it makes little difference what, in detail, is on offer. In Germany, though, where clubs make money legally, they have an interest in being seen to comply.

I also think that it is perfectly possible that authorities will monitor boards like this one.

Obviously, no-one can complain about a girl not agreeing to something illegal, and some girls who were never really comfortable with it anyway will use this as an excuse.

Imagine reports about some place where illegal drugs, or illegal weapons, or whatever, are bought and sold, and discussion about this on the internet. Even if the owner isn't involved and doesn't advertise, it is enough if a case can be made before a court that he knowingly tolerated it, especially if he benefitted indirectly (by selling food and accomodation, say) from illegal practices.

[FlyByCable]

The club management tell all the girls they are banned from performing BBBJ. World is one of them. There are others in Hessen area too.

I can't understand why they would forbid the girls, it's not the girls or the club who breaking the law.

It's like if the police would give the passengers in a car a speeding ticket when the driver breaking the speed limit.

As a couple of days holiday I usually take a trip to Hessen up to 10 times a year, but with this BBBJ banning I think I will spend my money in Copenhagen instead. It's a closer distance from my home in Sweden.

The club management will kill there own business, they just don't know it yet. The girls will seek other places and other countries if the money doesn't come there.

[Sirioja]

I can say I hate feminists I hate governments and this new law and on and on.

But I have to state what I read in American media about the new law.

The media there stated that, Germany legalised sex work in approx 2003 and thought they would manage it better that way.

Instead it exploded into a very huge industry to their surprise, probably because others were doing things ie Sweden to chase men to Germany.

So double standard? Nope that's really oversimplifying the issue, they never expected it to explode like it did, so in the words of the article I read, the want to "rein it in a bit".

For all the guys panicking about the end of the world, my thoughts are this, don't worry pussy has been for sale since the dawn of time and it always will be.

When we are foreigners living in foreign countries, we should not judge this law, just with our small dick. Many girls tell many clients are married or living with a woman. Many clients ask and propose extra money to fuck bareback, before returning to wife, so this law is not only about brothels, but also to protect family health.

WGs have also the right to propose or not some services, to different guys, without complaints on desk about standard services not provided. No more standard services, like before some girls didn't kiss because too intimate, but provided BBBJ as standard service.

I experience some girls who don't like to provide BBBJ, but are great kisser and sensual women. On the other hand, some girls are just sucker for CIM, not my type of girls.

Like for everything in life, we get from what we are, beyond laws.

[Sirioja]

Hello!

I have a chance of stopping by in Germany for a few hours while on my way to / from eastern Europe, and would love for some help.

I land in Frankfurt on Monday at approximately 11 am and my connecting file out is at 10 pm the same night.

What are my options?

Is Sharks the best to go?

Would it be too early to go straight to the FKK? Or would it be ok to head to downtown, grab something to eat and go?

Taxi or train? (from downtown or airport).

I'm then back in Munich the following weekend (Saturday) from 6 pm to 7 am. I've normally been to Colosseum in Augsburg when I've stayed in Munich for a few days. But given the change in the current law, and due to the short visit what should I do? I can buy a Bavarian day pass to get to Ausburg after a good meal in downtown Munich.

For FRA, straight to Sharks for breakfast at 11 am.

Many girls say Monday is a quite good day for business at Sharks.

[Member #4585]

I must add, I've never been to any of the clubs in the FRA area. Would love to have a 3-some at one of the two places.

Threesome with two girls is good when the goods work well together so nake sure they know each other or ask the girl which friend she like to work with.

[Member #4585]

Dear friends,

May I ask you which ones are the 3 Hessen's FKK club who banned BBJ. As the historical user and member of this community HB said. By forbidding girls by providing it? World I read is one of them. The other ones? Thanks in advance.

Bareback sex in all the clubs is banned including BBBJ and the fine for the man is 50,000 euro.

This is the mantra that all my German acquaintances have been telling me when I see them in the club since 1 July.

The club management tell all the girls they are banned from performing BBBJ. World is one of them. There are others in Hessen area too.

[ExpatLover]

On the other hand the service decrease will cause demand reduction. Back before doomsday July 1, if it was the end of the night and a questionable girl came up to me, I would say what the hell and just do it because I knew it was a BBBJ with CIM at least. Now, my standards will rise considerably and I will be turning more women down unless they are exactly my type or I will just seek higher service closer to home. So this law will decrease demand and a lot of girls on the lower end of the scale will be on unemployment. The German government will be supporting them with unemployment and food assistance, etc.

I think that it is a case to case situation, very difficult t give any global view. May be we should not forget that even before 1St of July the situation was not good just look of the entry prices of the clubs decreased in the past years and how many discount offers are getting available. Some me girls have left the P6 scene, many are trying to move from one club to another, from FKK to escort in Europe and some are taking long holidays and a lot are trying to live with lower income.

[Universo Fkk]

Dear friends,

May I ask you which ones are the 3 Hessen's FKK club who banned BBJ. As the historical user and member of this community HB said. By forbidding girls by providing it? World I read is one of them. The other ones? Thanks in advance.