Stupid Shit in Kyiv

[Paulie97]

Precisely! The reason Ukrainians want to join NATO is the same reason why all former Russia's vassals wanted to be in NATO -- to get protected from the Evil Empire. Nothing more, nothing less.

That's 100% true and simple enough for a 4th grader to understand. Even Matt Gaetz, Marjorie Taylor Greene, and Tucker Carlson are smart enough to understand it. But it can't be entertained because it conflicts with their white nationalist, isolationist agenda that calls on the US to withdraw from the world stage. Putin would love that, and it's why they are on the same team.

You know an argument can be made to seize Rupert Murdock's assets and shut down Fox News since certain guests, and especially Carlson, are allowed to freely disseminate information easily confirmed as false that supports and gives comfort to our enemy. This was done in the lead up to and during WW II while Nazi sympathizing organizations like the German American Bund were dissolved. Here's an article that makes the argument. I'm personally not ready for that step but it's something to keep on the back burner. Fox deals heavily in Kremlin propaganda, and this is at odds with our national security. Here's a sample:

"Russia would never give genuine western journalists airtime. But it can always find a slot for its favourite quisling: Fox News's Tucker Carlson. He pushes out Russian propaganda lines or perhaps creates his own lies for Russia to use. Ukraine, not Russia, is the real tyranny. Nato provoked poor Vladimir Putin. The west is plotting to use biological weapons. Last week, he floated the theory that the war was not the result of an unprovoked invasion by a colonialist dictatorship but of the Biden administration's desire to avenge Donald Trump's victory in 2016.

It was a big hit in Moscow, reported BuzzFeed's Julia Davis. "State TV propagandists loved it so much, Russia's 60 Minutes included it not once, but twice in their evening broadcast – neatly bookended by the Kremlin's war propaganda."

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...urdochs-assets

[Paulie97]

Based on a wealth of research See imbedded links within the article. Here's a sample.

"Despite Putin's delusions of self-sufficiency and import substitution, Russian domestic production has come to a complete standstill with no capacity to replace lost businesses, products and talent; the hollowing out of Russia's domestic innovation and production base has led to soaring prices and consumer angst.

—As a result of the business retreat, Russia has lost companies representing 40% of its GDP, reversing nearly all of three decades' worth of foreign investment and buttressing unprecedented simultaneous capital and population flight in a mass exodus of Russia's economic base.

—Putin is resorting to patently unsustainable, dramatic fiscal and monetary intervention to smooth over these structural economic weaknesses, which has already sent his government budget into deficit for the first time in years and drained his foreign reserves even with high energy prices – and Kremlin finances are in much, much more dire straits than conventionally understood."

https://som.yale.edu/story/2022/chie...-and-sanctions

[Paulie97]

I agree with this to some extent. The Europeans clearly have the wherewithal to defend themselves and tend to their corner of the world. The Europeans should take primary ownership of NATO.

We are involved in NATO for the simple reason to support our allies while we are an economic powerhouse and by far the primary nuclear power. Putin would love nothing more than for us to withdraw so he can further run roughshod in his region of the world. As to China, their nuclear capabilities are far less than that of Russia. Russia's is actually greater than the US by a small margin. China also hasn't been involved in a war on it's own since the Sino-Vietnamese conflict of 1979. They are primarily about economic advancement, and keeping good relations with a united US / EU will trump any lip service given to Russia.

You might not notice, but I don't care for black & white narratives in global analysis. I almost always find it is too simplistic and is used to reach a preconceived perspective. I'm also not one of these guys thinking the Ukraine is easily going to run Russia out, trigger the end of the Putin regime and it will be a great ending to the conflict.

Well there's a respectable endeavor which involves seeking to see all sides. Then there's a wishy washiness that's talking out of both sides of your mouth. That's what I see a lot with your posts on this subject and this attempted love in with Elvis, a person who openly supported the violence against the US capital saying it "should have been worse," along with stolen election lies and is an apologist for Vladimir Putin. But I'm afraid this one is the closest we've seen to black and white since Hitler. We have a tyrant manufacturing justifications for invasions and land grabs while targeting, murdering, executing civilians, with deportations and "filtering centers" / concentration camps for those who survive. There was no provocation whatsoever. The only threat was the interest in democracy in a country he sought to control.

As to anyone thinking Ukraine is going to have an easy time on the battlefield and live happily ever after, who the fuck has made that argument? Rofl Given the propensity toward straw men you and Elvis should get a long well. Enjoy the love in.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman

P.S. Jmsuttr's posts are missed, but I can see why he dropped out. The pro-Russia crowd for whatever reason is very much the majority in the free for all threads on this pay for sex site, whatever that means. Going in circles with them daily, and for no pay is hardly worth the effort. Thankfully such traitors are very much the minority in the US, Western Europe, and certainly in NATO Eastern Euro countries. Ultimately that's what's most important.

[DramaFree11]

Elderly flee press gangs.

Ukrainian nursing home operators are reporting a surge in walk-offs due to elders' fears that Zelensky's increasingly desperate recruiting efforts will target them next.

75-year-old retiree Cadger Starets, who recently went AWOL from the Kladovyshche Nursing Home in Kiev, explained during an interview at an undisclosed location: "They're already grabbing 50-year-olds off the streets, beaches, shopping malls, 'checkpoints, gas stations and other public places. ' Looks like they're coming for us next. ".

Specifically, Zelensky said, old folks who are wheelchair-bound or severely mobility-impaired will be exempt. Those using walkers or canes, however, may still be drafted, as well as those unable to control excretory functions: "All of our troops lose control of excretory functions during Russian artillery strikes, so that shouldn't be an issue. " Likewise, dementia will not be an obstacle to induction to military service: "If it doesn't stop you from being president of the United States, it shouldn't stop you from dying on the front lines of a stupid, utterly unnecessary war. "

https://www.veteranstoday.com/2022/0...nursing-homes/

Too funny!! It might actually be True.

[PedroMorales]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oP2wPJ51pdw

American filth are looking to have a drug tsarina and a spy released. One of the reasons Americans (and Israel, two cheeks) are the filth of the world. The spammers here are the reason 1. The moderator has these quarantined threads; 2. These quarantined threads are stupid shit. Unless Russia gets a favourable deal, these American criminals should pay in full for their crimes. Americans do not belong in Europe, except in gulags.

[Paulie97]

It's time to torpedo another piece of Russo propaganda while we're at it. The claim Russia was given assurances of no NATO expansion at the fall of the Berlin Wall is nonsense. For one thing the Warsaw Pact was still in place so there would have been no point in discussing the fates of nations beyond Germany. Such was never on the table. The subject never came up as Mikail Gorbachev confirmed. The subject of NATO's enlargement "was not discussed at all. Not a single Eastern European country raised the issue, not even after the Warsaw Pact ceased to exist in 1991. Western leaders didn't bring it up, either. " Troop deployment in the former East Germany was all that was considered.

https://theconversation.com/ukraine-...he-east-177085

This issue has been covered a number of times before on the thread, however since there's always Johnny come latelys who show up with the same specious arguments that were shot down in the past. It thus has to be done all over again. Such is the circular nature of political discussions for anyone that stays in them for any length time.

But it is important to state again, for anyone who wishes to turn it into a referendum on Biden and Democrats that support for Ukraine is quite bi-partisan, with only 11 Republican senators voting against the latest aid package to Ukraine. Therefore most Republican lawmakers aren't buying Russian propaganda and aren't letting Tucker Carlson do their thinking for them. That's a very good thing and gives cause for hope for American democracy.

[Travv]

Ukrainian nursing home operators are reporting a surge in walk-offs due to elders' fears that Zelensky's increasingly desperate recruiting efforts will target them next.

75-year-old retiree Cadger Starets, who recently went AWOL from the Kladovyshche Nursing Home in Kiev, explained during an interview at an undisclosed location: "They're already grabbing 50-year-olds off the streets, beaches, shopping malls, 'checkpoints, gas stations and other public places. ' Looks like they're coming for us next. ".

Ukrainian President Vlodomyr Zelensky denied reports that militarily unfit old people are next in line for the press gang treatment. "We understand that some nursing home residents have severe disabilities that prevent them from firing heavy artillery for a few minutes until they are blown up," the heroic piano-playing president intoned. "Our recruiters have been trained to identify those cases and exempt them from military service. Only fully able, fit, militarily-trainable decrepit old farts will be forcibly inducted and sent to the front lines. ".

Specifically, Zelensky said, old folks who are wheelchair-bound or severely mobility-impaired will be exempt. Those using walkers or canes, however, may still be drafted, as well as those unable to control excretory functions: "All of our troops lose control of excretory functions during Russian artillery strikes, so that shouldn't be an issue. " Likewise, dementia will not be an obstacle to induction: "If it doesn't stop you from being president of the United States, it shouldn't stop you from dying on the front lines of a stupid, utterly unnecessary war. ".

Zelensky added that his sugar daddy Igor Kolomoyskyi, who turns 60 next February, works in an essential industry, organized crime, and will therefore be granted a draft exemption. . .

Comments: Good way to solve the pension shortfall crisis! Send draft notices to all social security recipients then ship them off to the trenches to face the Russian artillery barrages! LOL.

[Paulie97]

This continues to be a massive oversimplification to shoe horn into a narrative. Before the Ukraine invasion, I think NATO members were either looking to wind down or at a minimum redirect their focus away from the East.

In any event, was NATO really a direct threat to Russia or was it actually a threat to Russia's ability to try to reassemble parts of the Russian empire? We also have the Russian military continually encroaching on their neighbors' territory throughout the 2000's. If the Russians aren't stepping over borders, they are meddling in their neighbors' politics.

Let's pack all the baggage, shall we.

It's just a rehash of Russian propaganda that Elvis was spoonfed watching Tucker Carlson. He's regurgitating it here and isn't capable of anything more. For one thing Biden lacks the authority to exclude any European country from ever joining NATO as this is against the provisions of the treaty and open door policy. Any Euro nation can seek membership, and it comes down to qualifications, not what a tyrant demands. To even begin to try and yield to such nonsense would set a horrible precedent. The demands would keep coming.

The bottom line is that Russia needed reasons for the invasion to spin in their media, so they created a "crisis" with this demand they knew would be rejected. The bottom line though is exactly what you said, they are out to rebuild empire, and especially want the valuable Ukrainian industries, farmlands, and sea ports. This while they specifically stated they aren't concerned about Finland joining the alliance, a country they share a 1340 Km border with.

[Travv]

Elderly flee press gangs.

Ukrainian nursing home operators are reporting a surge in walk-offs due to elders' fears that Zelensky's increasingly desperate recruiting efforts will target them next.

75-year-old retiree Cadger Starets, who recently went AWOL from the Kladovyshche Nursing Home in Kiev, explained during an interview at an undisclosed location: "They're already grabbing 50-year-olds off the streets, beaches, shopping malls, 'checkpoints, gas stations and other public places. ' Looks like they're coming for us next. ".

Specifically, Zelensky said, old folks who are wheelchair-bound or severely mobility-impaired will be exempt. Those using walkers or canes, however, may still be drafted, as well as those unable to control excretory functions: "All of our troops lose control of excretory functions during Russian artillery strikes, so that shouldn't be an issue. " Likewise, dementia will not be an obstacle to induction to military service: "If it doesn't stop you from being president of the United States, it shouldn't stop you from dying on the front lines of a stupid, utterly unnecessary war. "

https://www.veteranstoday.com/2022/0...nursing-homes/

[WyattEarp]

Yeah, I want out of NATO too. What return do we get on our investment? Russia is a joke. China is the real threat.

I agree with this to some extent. The Europeans clearly have the wherewithal to defend themselves and tend to their corner of the world. The Europeans should take primary ownership of NATO.

I think the real reason the USA Still maintains a European presence is that NATO has given our leaders a continuing excuse to maintain a large, standing army abroad. As you seem to believe, Putin might feel threatened by NATO but the current purpose of USA Troops in Europe is to have a standby army near the oil fields of the Mideast. The USA Army in Europe could possibly be re-positioned later in the Asia Pacific region.

I don't know what historical global strategist first said that the problem with a large, standing army is that you tend to want to use it. This has certainly been the United States' failing.

You might not notice, but I don't care for black & white narratives in global analysis. I almost always find it is too simplistic and is used to reach a preconceived perspective. I'm also not one of these guys thinking the Ukraine is easily going to run Russia out, trigger the end of the Putin regime and it will be a great ending to the conflict.

[Xpartan]

This continues to be a massive oversimplification to shoe horn into a narrative. Before the Ukraine invasion, I think NATO members were either looking to wind down or at a minimum redirect their focus away from the East.

In any event, was NATO really a direct threat to Russia or was it actually a threat to Russia's ability to try to reassemble parts of the Russian empire? We also have the Russian military continually encroaching on their neighbors' territory throughout the 2000's. If the Russians aren't stepping over borders, they are meddling in their neighbors' politics.

Let's pack all the baggage, shall we.

Precisely! The reason Ukrainians want to join NATO is the same reason why all former Russia's vassals wanted to be in NATO -- to get protected from the Evil Empire. Nothing more, nothing less.

How many times after the WW2 the Russian Army has marched on? Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Afghanistan, Poland, Chechnya (that was an internal and controversial affair, but still), Moldova, Georgia, Ukraine.

8 years ago when he attacked Ukraine for the first time, it would've been easy to stop him. Our collective weakness has turned Putin into a mad lunatic. Now we're having what we're having -- all blown war. I can only hope we don't give up again.

[Elvis 2008]

Why Ukraine would risk everything over joining a corrupt organization,(NAtO), beats me. They can have NATO, we should pull out, let Ukraine have NATO. Ukraine Government and NATO are a match made in heaven, they deserve each other.

Ukraine government should have been focused on fixing their own corruption and finding common ground with Putin, too easy.

DF, only thing I can think of is the Ukrainians at the top were looking to cash in on USA Aid. Glenn Greenwald had someone on his podcast who said the USA defense contractors used Afghanistan to launder money and that is gone now. Now I guess they will use Ukraine. The money being thrown at the defense industry now is fucking nuts.

Yeah, I want out of NATO too. What return do we get on our investment? Russia is a joke. China is the real threat.

[WyattEarp]

When Russian President Vladimir Putin built up forces outside Ukraine and asked repeatedly for assurances that Ukraine would not be brought into NATO, an alliance aimed at Russia, the Biden administration refused

This continues to be a massive oversimplification to shoe horn into a narrative. Before the Ukraine invasion, I think NATO members were either looking to wind down or at a minimum redirect their focus away from the East.

In any event, was NATO really a direct threat to Russia or was it actually a threat to Russia's ability to try to reassemble parts of the Russian empire? We also have the Russian military continually encroaching on their neighbors' territory throughout the 2000's. If the Russians aren't stepping over borders, they are meddling in their neighbors' politics.

Let's pack all the baggage, shall we.

[Xpartan]

Well said. There are a group of spammers here, either paid by Israel or just dumb as American Democrats (think of all the wars they have foisted on us). They are here to defend actual Nazis and to pretend Odessa is an open city. Ukrainian soldiers are being slaughtered because of these criminals.

So what happens when the most despicable Russian shill Merdo Immorales gets caught on 3 vicious lies.

He finds nothing better to do but accuse me of a) getting paid by Israel or b) being a dumb American Democrat.

Well, folks, I must say: Dumbo, pardon me, Merdo didn't think it through (well, he never does).

If he did, he would ask himself or some father figure like Golfinho or Elvis, why the state of Israel would pay me to tarnish (LOL) that impeccable reputation of Russia and its Eternal Leader. Israel works harder than ever to maintain good relationship with Russia (which, unfortunately, can't be helped considering Middle East's geopolitical realities).

I mean, why Israel? Maybe I'm getting paid by America, UK, EU, Japan, Australia, or the United Federation of the Terra Excelsior Republic (yeah, look it up)?

But no, it's got to be Israel. Just like Merdo has got to be Merdo.

As for being a dumb American Democrat, that won't fly either. Americans disgust for Putin and his war is bipartisan. Remember these beautiful American HIMARS that Ukrainians have been using to blow Russian arms and fuel depots to high heaven? That's what bipartisan means. Land lease. Yeah, baby.

I mean, there aren't many deviants like you, Drama Queen, Golfinho or Elvis. Seriously. I know you go to forums and people like you are everywhere, but that's only because you guys are scared of sunlight, LOL.

The thing is, unlike you, I can't be completely sure that you're a paid shill for Russia. I mean, you talk like a paid shill, walk like a paid shill, quack like a paid shill, but are you a paid shill? I just don't have the facts.

You may be a fascist. Or a Nazi. There is a difference, like between HIV and AIDS. In that case, your adoration of Putin is natural. Organic even.

Or you may be a sadist deriving pleasure every time Ukrainian men, women and children are murdered.

Or you may be both.

Or you may be a sadistic fascist paid shill -- who says you can't take pleasure from your job, right?

Zig heil, tovarisch.

[Xpartan]

Well said. There are a group of spammers here, either paid by Israel or just dumb as American Democrats (think of all the wars they have foisted on us).

So folks, what are we getting here?

Tu quoque (Latin Tū quoque, for "you also") is a discussion technique that intends to discredit the opponent's argument by attacking the opponent's own personal behavior and actions as being inconsistent with their argument, therefore accusing hypocrisy. This specious reasoning is a special type of ad hominem attack. The Oxford English Dictionary cites John Cooke's 1614 stage play The Cittie Gallant as the earliest use of the term in the English language. "Whataboutism" is one particularly well known modern instance of this technique.

Whataboutism or whataboutery denotes in a pejorative sense a procedure in which a critical question or argument is not answered or discussed, but retorted with a critical counter-question which expresses a counter-accusation. From a logical and argumentative point of view it is considered a variant of the Tu-quoque pattern (Latin 'you too', term for a counter-accusation), which is a subtype of the Ad-hominem argument.

Easy-peasy.