Pattaya Reports

[Philip Marlow]

From time to time, MIB takes rides in town to check what happens in bar and streets and the proud report is "we didn't find any sign of prostitution".

Why do they announce that if it is not illegal? No LE will make pride of checks about non illegal activities. Driving through red traffic lights is illegal, so police will give stats about the fins on that offence. Not that they checked people driving through green lights.

Why from time to time they arrest ladies and Lb's charging them for. Prostitution?

There are many things linked to prostitution in Thailand that are illegal, including in certain cases, the act itself. As shown in ETs posts on this, pimping in illegal. (Section 9 below) Soliciting prostitution is illegal, IF it is done in "an an open and shameful manner or causes nuisance to the public. " (Section 5).

Advertising it is illegal. Certain acts in prostitution establishments are illegal. And on and on.

Those are things the police are looking for. The arrests are, presumably, for violations of these sections.

This is not what the discussion is about. Many people like to parrot other people, who themselves are wrong. They're not interested in whether or not what they say is actually true. Everyone who makes the blanket statement that prostitution is illegal in Thailand is wrong.

If prostitution itself was illegal, the law would just say that, as the law in my home state does.

The following is the Thai law regarding murder:

TITLE X.

OFFENCE AGAINST LIFE AND BODY.

Details.

Chapter 1: Offence Causing Death.

Section 288. Murder.

Whoever, murdering the other person, shall be imprisoned by death or imprisoned as from fifteen years to twenty years.

That's it. Is the act of murder illegal in the Kingdom? Yes it is. See Title X, Chapter 1, Section 288. Now somewhere in the penal code murder will be defined, but notice there are no qualifiers, nothing about- only if done in a certain manner in a certain place, committed upon a person of a certain age, etc.

Is the act of prostitution illegal in the Kingdom? Show me the statute that declares it is.

[EihTooms]

From time to time, MIB takes rides in town to check what happens in bar and streets and the proud report is "we didn't find any sign of prostitution".

Why do they announce that if it is not illegal? No LE will make pride of checks about non illegal activities. Driving through red traffic lights is illegal, so police will give stats about the fins on that offence. Not that they checked people driving through green lights.

Why from time to time they arrest ladies and Lb's charging them for. Prostitution?

When they say, " We didn't find any sign of prostitution" or "We didn't find any evidence of prostitution" they mean exactly those words. They are indeed looking for "signs" or "evidence" of prostitution. Because there are specific, clear and unambiguous laws against producing public signs and evidence of Sex For Sale publicly, openly and shamefully.

They don't give a damn if every consenting adult man and woman on the soi, employed in a bar or not, has or will within 15 minutes actually engage in an act of sex for money behind closed doors. Because there is literally no law against that.

However, producing "signs" or "evidence" of it being made availble as though it is a legimate commercial enterprise will tarnish the image of the Kingdom or in some way create a public nuisance for nearby businesses and by-passers.

There is literally no law specifically forbidding consenting adults from discretely exchanging sex for money. However, there ARE laws specifically forbidding advertising, flaunting or engaging in it publicly, openly and shamefully.

Where have you read reports of LB and female Freelancers being arrested and charged with the crime of prostitution?

As Mr. Enternational mentioned in a previous post, those sweeps are usually for loitering, creating a public nuisance and so on, not for being prostitutes or for having engaged in prostitution. Again, the specific words and details of these incidents and cases matter.

He also mentioned prostitutes can and sometimes will go the the cops to complain about being ripped off by a customer who got the service and refused to pay, whereupon presumably the cops will go with her back to wherever the customer can be found, probably his hotel room, and get it all worked out. Hardly the thing a cop would do if what she had engaged in was illegal. And I doubt all those cops are on some Freelancer network payroll for just such an occasion.

Full disclosure, I have not personally known any prostitute who has ever done that. But I have heard of it happening from expats in addition to Mr. Enternational.

[BionicMan]

I didn't say anything about enforcement. The question is- Is prostitution illegal in Thailand? Whether a law is enforced or not doesn't change its legality.

From time to time, MIB takes rides in town to check what happens in bar and streets and the proud report is "we didn't find any sign of prostitution".

Why do they announce that if it is not illegal? No LE will make pride of checks about non illegal activities. Driving through red traffic lights is illegal, so police will give stats about the fins on that offence. Not that they checked people driving through green lights.

Why from time to time they arrest ladies and Lb's charging them for. Prostitution?

[BionicMan]

Based on recommendations from the Board I tried to book Mike's Taxi to get me from BKK to Pattaya. I filled out their online booking and added all the details and contact info and heard nothing back. The morning I was leaving MNL I wrote again and begged for a response (I was arriving BKK in the evening). Crickets. Perhaps I booked too late and they were full, but in that business they really need to get back to the customer and let them know that.


They have wiped my ride off their App like it never happened, yet I'm in the car. - he could take me anywhere. I start tracking on Google Maps and we are He took great offense. "Thai honest people. Thai no lie. " Hunh? You just scammed me.

Welcome to Thailand;.

The lesson out of this is you should have cross checked with a Mike taxi about your booking. I use Nam Taxi services, book weeks ahead, get a confirmation straight back and 24 hrs prior the ride they send me a reconfirmarion, name, photo and phone no, of the driver as well as photo of the car with visible number plate. Once in my departure airport I send a WA to the driver with a selfie of myself so they see what shirt I wear on arrival.
PS I hope you reported to Bolt what happened.

Smooth as silk.

[EihTooms]

Well we know it is not legal to offer it online.

https://aseannow.us12.list-manage.co...9&e=56b8e2c51e

The operation was initiated following information that Mr John (not his real name) was using a public website to advertise illicit services. Acting on this intelligence, detectives crafted a plan using an undercover operative.

Was he busted for "engaging in" illicit services, as in Sex in Exchange For Money? The report does not say so. It says he was "advertizing" illicit services. Perhaps not even involving himself. I would even say probably not involving himself.

Nobody here has been arguing that it is legal to "advertize" for Sex For Pay services. Instead, we have all been in agreement that the Thai Penal Code and all Addendums have been quite clear about that kind of thing being illegal.

[Mr Enternational]

I double checked with the driver that he had change for my second 1000 baht note. He took great offense. "Thai honest people. Thai no lie. " Hunh? You just scammed me.

Welcome to Thailand;.

He didn't really scam you. The app said 1046. Tolls are 105, for a total of 1151 You paid 1200. A lot of people contact those services like Mikes Taxi and pay 1500 up to 2000. My girlfriend charges 1800 for that ride because her truck uses diesel instead of the cheaper natural gas other vehicles use.

[Errol Flynn]

Based on recommendations from the Board I tried to book Mike's Taxi to get me from BKK to Pattaya. I filled out their online booking and added all the details and contact info and heard nothing back. The morning I was leaving MNL I wrote again and begged for a response (I was arriving BKK in the evening). Crickets. Perhaps I booked too late and they were full, but in that business they really need to get back to the customer and let them know that.

There was no time to prebook anyone else so I figured I'd take Grab or Bolt. I've used Grab extensively in. The PI (never a problem) but was new to Bolt. I read that it's more popular in Thailand so when I saw a good price I booked it. (1046 baht). On his way to me the "driver" texted me that the tolls are additional, I said "okay, but I only have big bills". (I now believe it was a Manager texting me). Guy arrives and he knows my name and hotel sio my bags go in. The back and I am in. The car when he tells me I need to Cancel the ride in the App and pay cash. I didn't like that, but asked "hoe much?" he said 1400 baht. I showed him. The Bolt page that clearly said 1046 baht. So he called his manager who texted me that it is cash only and I need to cancel the ride. I texted back that that was unacceptable. After some back and forth in Thai the driver says "1200 baht, okay? I say that includes tolls?" he says yes, and realizing I don't want to get my bags out and start this all over I agree. (It's not a terrible price, but it's not the deal I made.). We take off at high speed, hen I get a message from Bolt that "The Driver has cancelled your ride because he couldn't locate you. " That's when I realize that I'm off the grid as far as Bolt is concerned. They have wiped my ride off their App like it never happened, yet I'm in the car. - he could take me anywhere. I start tracking on Google Maps and we are going the right way, but the driver is driving like a maniac and vaping which adds a film noir quality to my first view of nighttime Thailand. Not a pleasant start. Funny thing is when I was paying the guy at my hotel (I waited until I was out of the car in the light with the bellman there) I double checked with the driver that he had change for my second 1000 baht note. He took great offense. "Thai honest people. Thai no lie. " Hunh? You just scammed me.

Welcome to Thailand;.

[Expat American]

Y
You are wrong. Prostitution is clearly illegal as well as profiting from it. My colleagues at Siam legal summarize it very nicely here. If you don't know, don't say. The reason you think it's legal is because it is not enforced in many situations, but the laws are clear. Prostitution is illegal in Pattaya and everywhere in Thailand.

Please read.

Prostitution is illegal in Thailand but obviously a big driver of tourism. I don't see what the average punter does as risky from that perspective. However Farang bar owners and managers are probably putting themselves in significant legal risk or at the very least subject themselves to major shakedowns. Why any farang would do that and risk being put in a Thai jail is beyond me. On top of that some of them even have You Tube channels promoting their illegal businesses which seems to be the height of recklessness. It all works until one day the government changes, the US puts some pressure or other reason and it all crumbles.

[EihTooms]

One would think a summary would quote relevant sections, except if there are no relevant sections to quote. Then, in order to hide the fact that there are none, include as much irrelevant information as possible. Minors, third parties, public places??

And you're doing it again. I can read well, so I'm not overwhelmed by the number of words you included, irrelevant though they are. The only thing you've included that comes close is Section 5. And that has a purposeful out. If those things are done- "in an open and shameful manner or causes nuisance to the public. " Sorry, your dramatic "nail in the coffin" flopped.

You work in the legal profession. (I have no idea why that is relevant.) Why are there qualifiers in that section?

Why include Section 6? Who's asking about about establishments?

Why include Section 7? Advertisements?

Why section 9? Pimping?

It's simple. The question is- Is it illegal in Thailand for me to ask a woman in my condo if she will have sex with me in exchange for money, and consummate the act? I. e. , prostitution. In my state, it is clearly against the law. No ambiguity, no irrelevancy.

Either show me where in Thai law is says that it is, or stop.

Ok, the translation is bad. Please show the Thai version and I will get it translated. Because nothing here comes close to making your point.

I just wanted to mention here that I have also been making these same points and raising the same questions but since my post submissions are held for quite some time for moderation they have not been posted yet even though I submitted them before yours and others' showed up here.

Just my apology in advance for what might seem like an annoying repetition of what you and perhaps others are submitting and getting posted way sooner than my submissions are getting posted. If they get posted at all, that is.

And I suspect now that these holes in the argument are being laid bare by so many and so effectively, "somebody" will request all of it be moved to another forum, where very few here will ever see them. As happened before.

[Mr Enternational]

I didn't say anything about enforcement. The question is- Is prostitution illegal in Thailand? Whether a law is enforced or not doesn't change its legality.

Well we know it is not legal to offer it online.

https://aseannow.us12.list-manage.co...9&e=56b8e2c51e

[Philip Marlow]

Take for example Dubai and Bahrein, two well known "mongering destinations " in the Gulf. Are you telling us that prostitution is not illegal there because there's no enforcement to stop all what is well known? Countries where, in principle, it is not accepted to show "love and affection in public'?

I didn't say anything about enforcement. The question is- Is prostitution illegal in Thailand? Whether a law is enforced or not doesn't change its legality.

[Philip Marlow]

The summary does not show every law. I posted the link to the law for a reason. I guess you were too lazy to look. I work in the legal profession in Thailand so I know and you don't know.

Here are all the laws form the act related to this. Further, this a bad translation. The Thai version is much clearer and leaves no room for doubt that prostitution is illegal in Thailand.

Section 5. Any person who, for the purpose of prostitution, solicits, induces, Introduces herself or himself to, follows or implores a person in a street or a public place, or commits such acts in any other place, in an open and shameful manner or causes nuisance to the public, shall be liable to a fine not exceeding one thousand baht.

You don't know so don't say. Read

This should close the topic now. Prostitution, while illegal in Thailand is tolerated until there is a reason to enforce the laws. End of story.

One would think a summary would quote relevant sections, except if there are no relevant sections to quote. Then, in order to hide the fact that there are none, include as much irrelevant information as possible. Minors, third parties, public places??

And you're doing it again. I can read well, so I'm not overwhelmed by the number of words you included, irrelevant though they are. The only thing you've included that comes close is Section 5. And that has a purposeful out. If those things are done- "in an open and shameful manner or causes nuisance to the public. " Sorry, your dramatic "nail in the coffin" flopped.

You work in the legal profession. (I have no idea why that is relevant.) Why are there qualifiers in that section?

Why include Section 6? Who's asking about about establishments?

Why include Section 7? Advertisements?

Why section 9? Pimping?

It's simple. The question is- Is it illegal in Thailand for me to ask a woman in my condo if she will have sex with me in exchange for money, and consummate the act? I. e. , prostitution. In my state, it is clearly against the law. No ambiguity, no irrelevancy.

Either show me where in Thai law is says that it is, or stop.

Ok, the translation is bad. Please show the Thai version and I will get it translated. Because nothing here comes close to making your point.

[EihTooms]

The summary does not show every law. I posted the link to the law for a reason. I guess you were too lazy to look. I work in the legal profession in Thailand so I know and you don't know.

Here are all the laws form the act related to this. Further, this a bad translation. The Thai version is much clearer and leaves no room for doubt that prostitution is illegal in Thailand.

Section 5. Any person who, for the purpose of prostitution, solicits, induces, Introduces herself or himself to, follows or implores a person in a street or a public place, or commits such acts in any other place, in an open and shameful manner or causes nuisance to the public, shall be liable to a fine not exceeding one thousand baht.

Section 6. Any person who assembles in a prostitution establishment for the benefit of prostituting himself or herself or another person shall be liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding one month or to a fine not exceeding one thousand baht or both. If the offense under paragraph one is committed while being forced or being under such power which cannot be avoided or resisted, the offender is not guilty.

Section 7. Any person who advertises or agrees to advertise, induces or introduces by means of documents, printed materials, or distribute by any means to the public in a manner indicative of importunity or solicitation for the prostitution of himself, herself or another person shall be liable to imprisonment for a term of six months to two years or to a fine of ten thousand baht to forty thousand baht or to both.

Section 9. Any person who PROCURES, seduces or takes any person to commit prostitution, even with his or her consent and irrespective of whether the various acts which constitute such an offense are committed within or outside the Kingdom, shall be liable to Imprisonment for a term of one to ten years and to a fine of twenty thousand to two hundred thousand baht. If the offense under paragraph one is committed against a person over fifteen, but not over eighteen years of age, the offender shall be liable to imprisonment of five to fifteen years and to a fine of one hundred thousand to three hundred thousand baht.

This covers public places, private places and bars and massage shops and so on. Section 7 would apply to Thai friendly as well, such as when the ladies write ST 1500 for example. Section 5 mentions or any other place so that would even include your home or condo. Section 9 is the blanket clause that puts the nail in there coffin for you. Procure means "buy".



You don't know so don't say. Read

This should close the topic now. Prostitution, while illegal in Thailand is tolerated until there is a reason to enforce the laws. End of story.

Here are all the laws form the act related to this. Further, this a bad translation. The Thai version is much clearer and leaves no room for doubt that prostitution is illegal in Thailand.

Section 5. Any person who, for the purpose of prostitution, solicits, induces, Introduces herself or himself to, follows or implores a person in a street or a public place, or commits such acts in any other place, in an open and shameful manner or causes nuisance to the public, shall be liable to a fine not exceeding one thousand baht.

The qualifier I highlighted has been on the books, well-inderstood and occasionally enforced for years. But it still doesn't say the act of exchanging sex for money between consenting adults is illegal.

Section 9. Any person who PROCURES, seduces or takes any person to commit prostitution, even with his or her consent and irrespective of whether the various acts which constitute such an offense are committed within or outside the Kingdom, shall be liable to Imprisonment for a term of one to ten years and to a fine of twenty thousand to two hundred thousand baht. If the offense under paragraph one is committed against a person over fifteen, but not over eighteen years of age, the offender shall be liable to imprisonment of five to fifteen years and to a fine of one hundred thousand to three hundred thousand baht.

"PROCURES, seduces or takes", "within or outside the Kingdom" indicates that Section is clearly talking about pimps or mamasans recruiting girls to work as prostitutes somewhere, anywhere, in or outside of Thailand.

You can't really be saying that Section is referring to a customer and a working girl or boy agreeing lo have sex in a hotel room or condo. If so, then why did they mysteriously drop the word "solicits" in that Section, which would have eliminated the need to say anything about procuring, seducing or taking? I submit because they are talking about Recruiters, not customers. The words they use are speficially what Recruiters do when they have no intention of engaging in the exchange of sex for money with anyone, just intending to Recruit new girls.

In all your years purportedly involved in the legal profession in Thailand have you ever met someone who was busted for doing what I described between an ordinary customer and a prostitute and spent so much as a day in prison for it, much less a year? Have you even met someone who met someone who did such a thing?

[Gaijin Gigolo]

No, it isn't. Actively profiting from someone else's prostitution is illegal, that's why there's so many loopholes. But the act of buying / selling sex itself is totally legal.

Because they fit the beauty standard far better, because they are culturally way more popular at the moment and because they are far less demanding and aggressive in the bedroom. They're fine with a few minutes of sex a lot of the time and don't watch the clock. Most westerners want to get every last bit of value out of the experience and make the women suck their dick or bend over for lengthy periods of time. Westerners being penny pinchers plays somewhat of a part, but it's a bit of an exaggeration to attribute all of that to someone buying a drink more at the bar.

Finally someone else with a brain on here. Thanks for the input.

[EihTooms]

I frequently am, but not here. If you can cite something that states that it is illegal in the Kingdom for me to approach a woman and offer money for sex, and / or to consummate the act for pay, I would appreciate it. Because nothing you wrote comes close to stating that.

Even this summary doesn't say it.

Nothing about prostitution in my condo, for example. Or the lady's apartment. Why does the law (purportedly, it's been years since I read it) mention specific places? If the law doesn't specifically say something is illegal then it isn't.

This is from the revised statutes from my state in the US- "A person commits the offense of prostitution if the person engages in, or agrees or offers to engage in, sexual conduct with another person in return for a fee or anything of value. ".

Nothing you've cited even approaches such language. Because it doesn't exist.

All that stuff about "procuring / pursuading, taking, etc", "in an open and shameful manner or causes nuisance to the public", "in a place of prostitution" and "associates with" doesn't cut it and can not even be proven.

Ok, if I walk up to any woman on the street, in a mall or in the cinema and ask her to come to my room to fuck for 1,000 baht or 10,000 baht, I could see that a nurse, school teacher, secretary, a judge or off-duty policeman or their girlfriend or wife who had no intention of ever engaging in prostitution and felt quite insulted by the question would, could and probably should lodge a complaint. So be careful about that. Wrong place, wrong time, wrong person.

Now, what if I ask her to come to my room to fuck with no mention of money at all? And if she says yes, after we fuck in my room I say, "Here's 2,000 baht to buy that purse I saw you checking out at the mall"? Or if that 2,000 baht topic came up as we entered my condo lobby before we fucked? Did anybody break the law here? Me, for making the offer, her, for saying "ok, thanks" or both if us? Imo, that is the round-about Thai way of saying just don't make it obvious to any bystanders, we are a holy kingdom.

They know such a legal concept can not be proven or enforced. There has never even been in the history of Thailand a "sting" operation complete with audio or video recording devices set up in order to bust someone for engaging in such a conversation and exchange. Nor has there been an idictment, trial and conviction for it for any political rival or national security threat personage for which the Kingdom would be motivated to bust and imprison for something, anything.

Are those Soi 6 bars now "places of prostitution and brothels"? I thought they were bars in the business of selling drinks, to party and meet new friends. Same with massage shops, gentleman's clubs and my hotel room. If the law defines and identifies those as "places of prostitution", they are going to have to explain why they were even open for business in order for people to "associate" with each other in them, whatever that means.

If there is a place of business that provides a line up of girls or boys, presents a menu of specific sex acts with a price next to each item and provides no other service such as massage, resting and relaxing, having a drink, karaoke singing or partying, then the cops might have a shot at rounding up everyone "associating" with people there and I might avoid entering it myself I suppose.

My hotel room or condo? She didn't "procure / pursuade or take" me anywhere to have sex for money nor vice versa. I wanted to show her the lovely etching in my room. Again, anything more than that is unprovable and unenforceable.

These Codes and Addendums are written in the typically Thai fashion where they hope it "looks" to someone not particularly detail-oriented that they are saying "Prostitution, the exchange of sex for money, between or among consenting adults, is illegal" when it really doesn't say any such thing and would take less than 10 clear and unambiguous words to say so.