Chicago Club Reports

[HK Monger]

You guys are over analyzing it with VIP card this, vip card that, proximity to other hotels.

It's not that complicated why CC sucks.

1) the quality of girls is atrocious (biggest and most important reason).

2) The quality of talent dancing on the polls / stage are atrociously bad too, which makes the club even more boring and unattractive.

3) they don't do any marketing to recruit women (why would a hot girl work in CC when she can get paid much more in HK; CC doesn't attract the high rolling azns and middle easterners who spend big $$ be / see the place has no hot women to attract them). HK has billboards advertising itself on major freeways all the way down to ensenada.

You're right. The bottom line is always the girls. And you bring up a good point about the dancing/entertainment. When I go in there, even if they have girls in the jacuzzi, they are generally just sitting there looking board. The girls dancing on the poles are boring, and sometimes they don't even remove their tops. If you want to compete with a bigger club with more selection you have to do one of two things: be cheaper/higher mileage or have better entertainment options. Instead, their entertainment is objectively worse and more conservative. They should have nude dancing there at all times if they want more butts in the seats.

But aside from that, they could still improve the marketing / customer relations aspect. Billboard? They can't even manage a web page! And they do nothing to keep their regular clientele satisfied and coming back. They just don't care. Like Sol said, maybe they are hoping people will "feel sorry for them" and buy a beer there.

[HK Monger]

I understand you like a room for the night but as I originally said is that I'm sure a room at CC on a Monday or Tuesday would be close to the price you pay with your VIP without having to pay the VIP fee.

I still disagree that the overall talent is better now, 2005 CC was losing girls and HK was expanding. AB was still very strong and you had more smaller bars with young girls that were newer to the scene and often more fun with better service. IMO. I don't think it's really recovered since COVID. HK might have a lot of girls in the club but usually when I go the amount that I find attractive is very few. So it's more of quantity not quality.

You claim that a VIP card will bring in customers because of the perks, if that was true why is BT still dead on Monday and Tuesday? If I read your reports correctly you even use Rizo not Cascades because they bug you less. So if the VIP is such a game changer you would spend your time in BT with all the hotties but they don't have them like HK so you don't spend time in BT. That's why I don't see it helping CC and I don't want all bars to start charging you for a VIP. A good example I can think of is back when everyone had cable. Well the prices started going up and people began to leave to only have Netflix, well soon after that more streaming channels were available and people left cable completely with the idea that they would save a bunch of money by only paying for channels they liked. Well now all the streaming services have raised prices and separating that people are beginning to realize that the cable bill was actually cheaper.

If CC wanted to get more customers especially on slow nights they could just offer specials on beers like 2 x1 or a discounted price on buckets. In the past that was how the smaller bars would compete. I just don't see the desire by them to change things. The good thing is that they have improved from what they were just 10 years ago when I would walk in and be the only person in the place. I'the get a drink from the waiter that I knew just to help him out and talk to him some but it was so depressing I would leave after my drink and go to the other bars.

One big difference I have noticed nowadays is that, at least in HK, not many of the girls actually live in Tijuana. A lot of them are put up in the hotel while they do their stint in HK and then return to their home town. Wash, rinse, repeat. The trouble is, those girls are mostly here to work, and don't seem to be into the party life. In the old days, it seemed like there were more girls living in Tijuana and working in the clubs. Those girls seemed more interested in extracurricular activities and you could get to know them better. Also, slowly but surely, in Mexico, there are more "opportunities" for women. Sadly, some of these girls are more interested in promoting themselves on social media nowadays than they are in men. So you're right about more fun, but better service from non regulars? I would disagree. The overall level of service is better. When I compare the service I get nowadays with that in CC and AB back in the day, its way better. Almost every girl in HK gives me sex like they're my pornstar girlfriend. Maybe I'm just better at picking them, or maybe it's because I'm paying more. I think I'm paying 20-30% more even inflation adjusted. But I'm getting my moneys worth. Longer and better sessions vs a rushed and restrictive quickie. Another thing is, we are all getting older, and as you get older, there tends to be a nostalgia for "way it used to be. ".

I've been with girls at BT. Just not that frequently. The selection is usually atrocious, whereas CC usually has a few attractive ones. BT is fat, out of shape girl central. And that is just not my type. It's not always dead on Monday / Tuesday, but it does peter out earlier, so that if you go after say 1 am you typically won't find much. This sucks for me, seeing that I never make my move before like 2-3 am. Once in a while, I see something I like. BTW, I visit BT EVERY time I go to Tijuana and have at least one beer, partially to check the talent and partially just to kill time, or to see if I can find a diamond in the rough. By contrast, I ALMOST NEVER go to CC, which I know is a waste of time because I'm not going to the room there even if they filled the place with supermodels.

Long term room with decently attractive girl trumps short term room with supermodel.

"I don't want all bars to start charging you for a VIP" Why? It's not an obligatory charge. What's the downside? If you don't want it don't get it. No one is forcing you. I don't think the mindset is that they are going to raise prices if they offer a vip card, because the VIP would make sense only for a very small subset of the patrons. I'm pretty sure that HK's prices are not driven by the VIP card. They would charge the same whether they offered it or not. The price of the VIP card itself is a gamble on their part that the average patron isn't going to use it that much, and a way to give perks to frequent flyers and keep them coming back.

[ABAJoeSmith123]

You guys are over analyzing it with VIP card this, vip card that, proximity to other hotels.

It's not that complicated why CC sucks.

1) the quality of girls is atrocious (biggest and most important reason).

2) The quality of talent dancing on the polls / stage are atrociously bad too, which makes the club even more boring and unattractive.

3) they don't do any marketing to recruit women (why would a hot girl work in CC when she can get paid much more in HK; CC doesn't attract the high rolling azns and middle easterners who spend big $$ be / see the place has no hot women to attract them). HK has billboards advertising itself on major freeways all the way down to ensenada.

[Sol12]

If it's not the girl then it's the damn towel boy. I don't like being under the gun. Now, truth be told I haven't been with a CC girl in like 10 years. But I'm sure not much has changed. If they only keep the short term room option, I will likely continue to not go with CC girls. Why go with a CC girl when I can go with an equally hot or hotter HK girl and have my own room? Maybe some people don't see this as an advantage, but for me it's a major advantage. Nobody ever bothers you if you have your own room. The girl could be in there for hours and nobody cares. And like I said, when you have your own room, your'e more in control. Also, I'm not looking for bargain girls or trying to save every penny. I'm looking to get a reasonable deal and maximize my experience.

I have been to CC before HK was really a thing. Maybe mid to late 2000's. Yes, they had a better selection, but it wasn't "a lot" better. It just seemed like it because they were the premier club. There was no mega club with 100's of girls walking around for comparison. There was only Adelitas, which I really never liked. There are more attractive girls working in the zona today than I have ever seen, imo.

The VIP card is a game changer if you go Monday or Tuesday, like I do. In my mind, it makes HK a better deal than CC. Now, on weekends, I guess you could make an argument for the cheaper rooms at CC, but I don't go on weekends. As it stands now, the club is pretty dead on Mondays and Tuesdays. I still think that offering perks to regulars who go on off peak days is a good idea for CC, just as it is for HK. This was my main intent with suggesting a VIP card. As a business, how can you let your main competitor have a better inventory, atmosphere, parking situation, AND OFFER A BETTER DEAL THAN YOU DO. I mean, OK, the beers are a dollar cheaper, an maybe the girl will go for less, but then the short term room situation negates that advantage as well.

Not sure why you are so against the suggestion that CC offer a VIP card or have a website. Seems to me you are arguing that CC just keep the status quo, catering to a niche clientele and a few old timers. That doesn't seem to be a good idea if they ever want to attract more and better girls. Ultimately, I would like to see CC bring the hotel situation closer to what HK offers, VIP card of not. People can always make excuses, but I believe that where there is a will, there is a way.Unfortunately, tt seems CC has no will to compete with HK. Or maybe they are scared of going the same way as Adelitas. And yet, they still might go that way,.

I understand you like a room for the night but as I originally said is that I'm sure a room at CC on a Monday or Tuesday would be close to the price you pay with your VIP without having to pay the VIP fee.

I still disagree that the overall talent is better now, 2005 CC was losing girls and HK was expanding. AB was still very strong and you had more smaller bars with young girls that were newer to the scene and often more fun with better service. IMO. I don't think it's really recovered since COVID. HK might have a lot of girls in the club but usually when I go the amount that I find attractive is very few. So it's more of quantity not quality.

You claim that a VIP card will bring in customers because of the perks, if that was true why is BT still dead on Monday and Tuesday? If I read your reports correctly you even use Rizo not Cascades because they bug you less. So if the VIP is such a game changer you would spend your time in BT with all the hotties but they don't have them like HK so you don't spend time in BT. That's why I don't see it helping CC and I don't want all bars to start charging you for a VIP. A good example I can think of is back when everyone had cable. Well the prices started going up and people began to leave to only have Netflix, well soon after that more streaming channels were available and people left cable completely with the idea that they would save a bunch of money by only paying for channels they liked. Well now all the streaming services have raised prices and separating that people are beginning to realize that the cable bill was actually cheaper.

If CC wanted to get more customers especially on slow nights they could just offer specials on beers like 2 x1 or a discounted price on buckets. In the past that was how the smaller bars would compete. I just don't see the desire by them to change things. The good thing is that they have improved from what they were just 10 years ago when I would walk in and be the only person in the place. I'the get a drink from the waiter that I knew just to help him out and talk to him some but it was so depressing I would leave after my drink and go to the other bars.

[HK Monger]

When was the last time you spent much time with a CC girl or took one to the room? CC girls are very laid back and are happy to sit and drink and I never had one recently in a rush to go back so they definitely don't work at CC because of the short term room option. Maybe you had bad luck with someone that has given you this jaded viewpoint but I definitely don't think of them to be any more or less manipulative than any other girl in the Zona you just have to know how to weed those ones out.

If it's not the girl then it's the damn towel boy. I don't like being under the gun. Now, truth be told I haven't been with a CC girl in like 10 years. But I'm sure not much has changed. If they only keep the short term room option, I will likely continue to not go with CC girls. Why go with a CC girl when I can go with an equally hot or hotter HK girl and have my own room? Maybe some people don't see this as an advantage, but for me it's a major advantage. Nobody ever bothers you if you have your own room. The girl could be in there for hours and nobody cares. And like I said, when you have your own room, your'e more in control. Also, I'm not looking for bargain girls or trying to save every penny. I'm looking to get a reasonable deal and maximize my experience.

surprised nobody else chimed in on this but IMO the quality and selection has gone down a lot compared to 10 to 15 years ago. Maybe you meant that the quality in CC is better and not the Zona in general. Also I'm not sure when you started going to CC but in the 90's and early 2000's they had a lot of young attractive girls which is a very very far cry from what they have now. You're lucky if you find 2 attractive girls in the place compared to the dozens they used to have. At least that has been my experience and the good looking girls that they do get don't usually last long and end up over at HK.

I have been to CC before HK was really a thing. Maybe mid to late 2000's. Yes, they had a better selection, but it wasn't "a lot" better. It just seemed like it because they were the premier club. There was no mega club with 100's of girls walking around for comparison. There was only Adelitas, which I really never liked. There are more attractive girls working in the zona today than I have ever seen, imo.

The VIP card is a game changer if you go Monday or Tuesday, like I do. In my mind, it makes HK a better deal than CC. Now, on weekends, I guess you could make an argument for the cheaper rooms at CC, but I don't go on weekends. As it stands now, the club is pretty dead on Mondays and Tuesdays. I still think that offering perks to regulars who go on off peak days is a good idea for CC, just as it is for HK. This was my main intent with suggesting a VIP card. As a business, how can you let your main competitor have a better inventory, atmosphere, parking situation, AND OFFER A BETTER DEAL THAN YOU DO. I mean, OK, the beers are a dollar cheaper, an maybe the girl will go for less, but then the short term room situation negates that advantage as well.

Not sure why you are so against the suggestion that CC offer a VIP card or have a website. Seems to me you are arguing that CC just keep the status quo, catering to a niche clientele and a few old timers. That doesn't seem to be a good idea if they ever want to attract more and better girls. Ultimately, I would like to see CC bring the hotel situation closer to what HK offers, VIP card of not. People can always make excuses, but I believe that where there is a will, there is a way.Unfortunately, tt seems CC has no will to compete with HK. Or maybe they are scared of going the same way as Adelitas. And yet, they still might go that way,.

[Zenduka1]

I wish CC stopped pestering visitors so much, to buy drinks. If only they gave people like me some breathing room to get accustomed to the vibe. This idea of following you around from the entrance all the way deep into the club to make sure you buy a drink is beyond annoying. In HK and / or Tropical I can sit and watch the show without buying a drink, at least not immediately as I walked in. In fact I rarely buy drinks in these clubs, my major expense it tipping the girls. Maybe CC can put a pool table on one side where guys like me chill in the club, rather than drinking. Allow people to come in and hangout, leave clients alone and allow them to mingle with the girls, etc.

Let me tell you how you offend people. I was passing by La Gloria and one guy asked me to get in and check it out. I rarely go in that place. This time decided to check it, I went in with the guy in tow. Ok, I saw it, I told him I will return some other time. He muttered as we parted, pendejo! Well, that was the last time I have ever been there. That guy has probably left the club long ago, but every-time I pass by the club, it is him that comes to my mind. Make effort for clients to come in and visit, is what I am saying, without being pestered around.

The Hotel of CC is also an issue, although that would be a problem with all other clubs in the area except HK / Tropical / Chavelas. I would never be able to take girls in short time rooms, never. Even if I pick a SG, she has to be someone who agree to come to my room.

[Sol12]

Let's face it, short term rooms suck. Nowadays, I see this as the option for newbs, once-a-year guys, and old guys stuck in the 90's. Honestly, one of my concerns with CC is that girls choose to work at this club solely because the short term room is the only option, thus giving them more control and power to manipulate.

Having your own room definitely shifts the balance of power in your favor. It's almost like the difference between inviting her back to your place vs her place. At your place, you are in controlnot the girl or the towel boy.

And negotiating some arrangement OTC is just to complicated and too much work on any given night. I would only do this after I have seen the girl a couple times anyway.

When was the last time you spent much time with a CC girl or took one to the room? CC girls are verylaid back and are happy to sit and drink and I never had one recently in a rush to go back so they definitely don't work at CC because of the short term room option. Maybe you had bad luck with someone that has given you this jaded viewpoint but I definitely don't think of them to be any more or less manipulative than any other girl in the Zona you just have to know how to weed those ones out.

[Sol12]

Doesn't CC recruit from other countries as well as Mexico, unlike HK? And I don't know about the economy, but the selection is the zona is way better than it used to be 10-15 years ago. The selection in Chicago isn't even that far removed from it's heyday before HK became the "it" club. It's just that HK is now such a mecca of talent, the other clubs pale in comparison.

I don't know about money laundering, but a simple web page and a vip card would cost virtually nothing.

Not really. They have some attractive girls. They just need to offer a good deal because the setup sucks. It's hard to go with the few attractive girls they have, though, when the club down the street has more of them AND offers a better deal.

The HK VIP card is a great deal if you go as frequently as I do. It pays for itself through the free drink alone. With the free parking and the hotel discount it's a must have if you are a regular. What does CC now charge for the short term room? And then you get the obligatory knock knock after 15-20 min. Not worth it. Can you get a room at Leyva and take a girl there straight from the club? I don't want TLN. I just want the luxury of taking a girl to my own room. How much does Leyva even charge nowadays? Last time I got a room at Leyva was like 8 years ago and it was something like 25-30 bucks.

What if you ask the girl to meet you at your room at Rizo after her shift? Are they allowed to go there, eeing that they are from the competitors club? That might actually make it workthwile

Well I'm not trying to be argumentative but some if your responses contradict what you have said.

CC doesn't recruit from other countries, those girls are already in Mexico and working at other clubs and will often move around the clubs to make money.

I'm surprised nobody else chimed in on this but IMO the quality and selection has gone down a lot compared to 10 to 15 years ago. Maybe you meant that the quality in CC is better and not the Zona in general. Also I'm not sure when you started going to CC but in the 90's and early 2000's they had a lot of young attractive girls which is a very very far cry from what they have now. You're lucky if you find 2 attractive girls in the place compared to the dozens they used to have. At least that has been my experience and the good looking girls that they do get don't usually last long and end up over at HK.

I'm not sure what a web page would cost CC but the site HK has seems pretty useless to me except those that print the coupons. Again I don't understand why you want to pay CC for a VIP card when the prices they have are already cheaper than HK. So like I said before CC would just raise the prices to offer a discount when you already get that discount and don't have to pay for a VIP card.

You say it's hard to go with the attractive girls because the poor set up but you don't know what they charge for rooms nowadays or if you can take the girls to other hotels. For me if I was to get a hotel room in the Zona it depends on where the girl works and what she's comfortable with. So if I got a room at Rizo and find a girl at CC that can't go to tha hotel I'm stuck where as if I find the girl first I'm open to going to the easiest hotel for her. If CC had a VIP card what happens when they don't have any rooms left? Jalos is much smaller than Rizo or Cascadas so like Phordy said they would need to invest a bunch of money into upgrading the hotel which in a earlier post you even said the same thing so I'm not sure why now you don't think they need to do any upgrades.

So the VIP works good for you but the free drink is not a big deal since you can get a free drink coupon on the website for free. Free parking is ok but I'd imagine a very small amount of guys use that perk since they don't drive in. The room discount is only real a good deal if you go on Monday or Tuesday IMO. I'm not sure either what the current short term Jalos room rate is I think around $20, and I haven't stayed in Leyva for awhile also but I'd bet they price hasn't changed much from what you use to pay sine I know that people live full-time in some of the rooms.

Again I understand for you the VIP card is a good deal I just don't want to see other clubs to think they should do the same. For me a true VIP is someone that frequents the club and they give you things for free because you are a good customer not them charging you money to make you think your special. Places that charge you for something means that your paying for exclusivity like a Costco membership. It's not like as a HK VIP you get access to some part of the club that others aren't allowed or they don't have exclusive hours for VIP card members. That's my view on it but HK has done a great marketing job of making guys think paying $70 for something that isn't that special is a good deal.

[HK Monger]

Let's face it, short term rooms suck. Nowadays, I see this as the option for newbs, once-a-year guys, and old guys stuck in the 90's. Honestly, one of my concerns with CC is that girls choose to work at this club solely because the short term room is the only option, thus giving them more control and power to manipulate.

Having your own room definitely shifts the balance of power in your favor. It's almost like the difference between inviting her back to your place vs her place. At your place, you are in control–not the girl or the towel boy.

And negotiating some arrangement OTC is just to complicated and too much work on any given night. I would only do this after I have seen the girl a couple times anyway.

[HK Monger]

Another thing to consider are Mexican demographics. The birth rate had dropped through the floor, and the economy is far better than it was even 20 years ago. And lots more women are getting lots more education than in years past. What this means is that today there are far fewer girls overall. Therefore there are far fewer pretty ones (ones that a guy might pay for company). And since more women can earn a living doing "regular" work, far fewer are willing to work in a table dance club, as they call them. Recruiting dozens and dozens of beauties is not the slam dunk it used to be.

Doesn't CC recruit from other countries as well as Mexico, unlike HK? And I don't know about the economy, but the selection is the zona is way better than it used to be 10-15 years ago. The selection in Chicago isn't even that far removed from it's heyday before HK became the "it" club. It's just that HK is now such a mecca of talent, the other clubs pale in comparison.

But, seriously, you don't think they haven't already thought of this? Of course the first thing that comes to mind is that it exists primarily to launder money, not to compete with HK. Why spend money when you don't need to?

I don't know about money laundering, but a simple web page and a vip card would cost virtually nothing.

For CC to compete head to head with HK now would require a massive expansion and a massive investment.

Not really. They have some attractive girls. They just need to offer a good deal because the setup sucks. It's hard to go with the few attractive girls they have, though, when the club down the street has more of them AND offers a better deal.

The majority of guys here don't have the business sense to run a lemonade stand yet alone a club.

I agree with large majority of what you said, on top of that I don't understand how you guys are wanting CC to charge you money just to get a discount. The VIP card for the majority of people in HK is a waste. So why would you pay money for the same thing in CC. Just so they overcharge the regular room rates to make you think your getting a good deal.

If you want to go for TLN with a CC girl get a room next door at Levya. Many guys I knew in the past would do it.

The HK VIP card is a great deal if you go as frequently as I do. It pays for itself through the free drink alone. With the free parking and the hotel discount it's a must have if you are a regular. What does CC now charge for the short term room? And then you get the obligatory knock knock after 15-20 min. Not worth it. Can you get a room at Leyva and take a girl there straight from the club? I don't want TLN. I just want the luxury of taking a girl to my own room. How much does Leyva even charge nowadays? Last time I got a room at Leyva was like 8 years ago and it was something like 25-30 bucks.

What if you ask the girl to meet you at your room at Rizo after her shift? Are they allowed to go there, eeing that they are from the competitors club? That might actually make it workthwile

[Zenduka1]

You're right, CC doesn't have a website. It's as if they don't know how to market themselves. That's why HK is so successful: they promote themselves well and their website is designed to draw new mongers.

That, plus the fact the regular rooms at Hotel Jalos are lousy, says it all. About CC. They're missing a golden opportunity to provide a challenge to HK.

I agree. That club is in a rut. They never have a vision or HK is pulling the rug under them. I have a feeling the latter is the case. If you see Adelitas, they died away doing their best to compete with HK, the illegal way. As I said there is something that is cold, rough, dangerous about that club. Maybe they are good but that is the feeling I have about them.

[Sol12]

You guys ought to start your own club. There is some vacant storefront west of NH, and I think a vacancy or two in the alley.

But, seriously, you don't think they haven't already thought of this? Of course the first thing that comes to mind is that it exists primarily to launder money, not to compete with HK. Why spend money when you don't need to?

Another thing to consider are Mexican demographics. The birth rate had dropped through the floor, and the economy is far better than it was even 20 years ago. And lots more women are getting lots more education than in years past. What this means is that today there are far fewer girls overall. Therefore there are far fewer pretty ones (ones that a guy might pay for company). And since more women can earn a living doing "regular" work, far fewer are willing to work in a table dance club, as they call them. Recruiting dozens and dozens of beauties is not the slam dunk it used to be.

For CC to compete head to head with HK now would require a massive expansion and a massive investment. And if they did, could they fill the place with pretty girls? It would be difficult. Thailand has this problem in spades. It's very difficult to recruit girls, and the ones who will work can almost name their own price. Tijuana is not far behind..

The majority of guys here don't have the business sense to run a lemonade stand yet alone a club.

I agree with large majority of what you said, on top of that I don't understand how you guys are wanting CC to charge you money just to get a discount. The VIP card for the majority of people in HK is a waste. So why would you pay money for the same thing in CC. Just so they overcharge the regular room rates to make you think your getting a good deal.

If you want to go for TLN with a CC girl get a room next door at Levya. Many guys I knew in the past would do it.

[Phordphan]

That, plus the fact the regular rooms at Hotel Jalos are lousy, says it all. About CC. They're missing a golden opportunity to provide a challenge to HK.

You guys ought to start your own club. There is some vacant storefront west of NH, and I think a vacancy or two in the alley.

But, seriously, you don't think they haven't already thought of this? Of course the first thing that comes to mind is that it exists primarily to launder money, not to compete with HK. Why spend money when you don't need to?

Another thing to consider are Mexican demographics. The birth rate had dropped through the floor, and the economy is far better than it was even 20 years ago. And lots more women are getting lots more education than in years past. What this means is that today there are far fewer girls overall. Therefore there are far fewer pretty ones (ones that a guy might pay for company). And since more women can earn a living doing "regular" work, far fewer are willing to work in a table dance club, as they call them. Recruiting dozens and dozens of beauties is not the slam dunk it used to be.

For CC to compete head to head with HK now would require a massive expansion and a massive investment. And if they did, could they fill the place with pretty girls? It would be difficult. Thailand has this problem in spades. It's very difficult to recruit girls, and the ones who will work can almost name their own price. Tijuana is not far behind.

Perhaps CC, if it doesn't exist for money laundering, exists to service a niche market. I, for one, hate HK. If I have to go to a ZN club I much prefer CC.

[OPIllini]

I just checked, and, correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think Chicago Club has a functioning website.

They have like zero business sense. Maybe a couple of mongers could get together and buy their business, LOL. Put a little money into it and we could make it so much better. Maybe give HK a run for its moneybut that would likely take a major rehaul.

You're right, CC doesn't have a website. It's as if they don't know how to market themselves. That's why HK is so successful: they promote themselves well and their website is designed to draw new mongers.

That, plus the fact the regular rooms at Hotel Jalos are lousy, says it all. About CC. They're missing a golden opportunity to provide a challenge to HK.

[HK Monger]

I just checked, and, correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think Chicago Club has a functioning website.

They have like zero business sense. Maybe a couple of mongers could get together and buy their business, LOL. Put a little money into it and we could make it so much better. Maybe give HK a run for its money–but that would likely take a major rehaul.