Pattaya Reports

[Philip Marlow]

I just wanted to mention here that I have also been making these same points and raising the same questions but since my post submissions are held for quite some time for moderation they have not been posted yet even though I submitted them before yours and others' showed up here.

Just my apology in advance for what might seem like an annoying repetition of what you and perhaps others are submitting and getting posted way sooner than my submissions are getting posted. If they get posted at all, that is.

And I suspect now that these holes in the argument are being laid bare by so many and so effectively, "somebody" will request all of it be moved to another forum, where very few here will ever see them. As happened before.

Weird, I just saw your posts. You make some very good points. But as far as the argument are being laid bare by so many and so effectively, I don't think that will sway too many others. Some are, without any evidence, convinced it's illegal, and nothing will change their minds. No big deal, it's really only an academic argument anyway.

[EihTooms]

There are many things linked to prostitution in Thailand that are illegal, including in certain cases, the act itself. As shown in ETs posts on this, pimping in illegal. (Section 9 below) Soliciting prostitution is illegal, IF it is done in "an an open and shameful manner or causes nuisance to the public. " (Section 5).

Advertising it is illegal. Certain acts in prostitution establishments are illegal. And on and on.

Those are things the police are looking for. The arrests are, presumably, for violations of these sections.

This is not what the discussion is about. Many people like to parrot other people, who themselves are wrong. They're not interested in whether or not what they say is actually true. Everyone who makes the blanket statement that prostitution is illegal in Thailand is wrong.

If prostitution itself was illegal, the law would just say that, as the law in my home state does.

The following is the Thai law regarding murder:

TITLE X.

OFFENCE AGAINST LIFE AND BODY.

Details.

Chapter 1: Offence Causing Death.

Section 288. Murder.

Whoever, murdering the other person, shall be imprisoned by death or imprisoned as from fifteen years to twenty years.

That's it. Is the act of murder illegal in the Kingdom? Yes it is. See Title X, Chapter 1, Section 288. Now somewhere in the penal code murder will be defined, but notice there are no qualifiers, nothing about- only if done in a certain manner in a certain place, committed upon a person of a certain age, etc.

Is the act of prostitution illegal in the Kingdom? Show me the statute that declares it is.

Sometimes I will hear or read something on the order of, "I have a friend who is a cop and he says blah blah blah" about prostitution or whatever.

Well, let me tell you that I have an in-law who is a Thai cop, I might have personally interacted with more different Thai police and Men In Btown than most westerners over the years and the fact is they are not always the sharpest knife in the drawer even about the law.

One example; I ride an electric bicycle around town that looks a bit like a real motor scooter but on the slightest closer inspection is clearly a bicycle and not a motorcycle. It has bicycle pedals. It would be closer to a circus clown small size motorcycle than a real one. Any policeman or MIB should be able to tell the difference between what I am driving and a full size motorcycle within 5 seconds of moderate inspection.

Yet I have been pulled over or stopped on the sidewalk while walking that bike at least 10 times by either 1 or more policeman or 1 or more MIB requesting to see my motorcycle drivers license, my registration, asking where is my helmet, etc, none of which is required to ride a bicycle, electric or not, in Thailand.

You might suspect they are just hassling me as a westerner, trying to shake me down for a payoff or "out of court" settlement. But all I can say is it never really goes there and it has happened even when I have had a Thai girlfriend passenger with me, a situation I have to think is not the best for them to assume I will just hand them 2,000 baht to let me go on my way.

The interaction has never escalated to that point and I have never paid anyone so much as a baht to get "early release". But it often did take several minutes for me to explain to these police agents and traffic rule enforcers the difference between a bicycle and a motorcycle, why this vehicle has bicycle pedals, how many Watts of power Thai law uses to determine whether the two-wheel vehicle must be regarded as a motorcycle and therefore the driver must obey all license, registration and helmet requirements for a motorcycle (500 Watts, BTW), etc.

I would think with as many electric bicycles and electric full size motorcycles as these folks are seeing and encountering in their job over the past few years that they would know these things by now.

But no.

Most of the time they have to look it up on their government-issued smartphone or tablet to discover I am telling them the truth and something they never knew before. They just saw a two-wheeled motor-powered vehicle and thought, "motorcycle. " Beyond that they hadn't given it much thought.

And even after they looked it up they would call over a supervisor to verify what they just read in their online handbook, perhaps for the first time really paying attention to the exact words, was true.

So just because a cop says something like "prostitution is illegal in Thailand" because he remembers reading the part in the Code about how many years someone might spend in prison for doing it with a minor or he recalls that Royal Edict from a few years ago that mentioned something about "procuring" and "taking" a girl from her province to work as a prostitute somewhere in or outside of Thailand or because his buddies are always looking for open and shameful "evidence" of it in public places, that does not mean he has ever fully understood why neither he nor any of his buddies has ever been assigned to knock on hotel and apartment doors to interrogate 30 year old suspected hookers and their 60 year old suspected customers about whether or not any money was exchanged for the fucking they just did or are about to do.

Sure, maybe a passage from the Thai Penal Code or another officially enforceable addendum to it will eventually show up with the exact words necessary to make it illegal at all times anywhere in the Kingfom and with anyone no matter how discretely it has been agreed to and engaged in. Anything is possible in Thailand. But those exact words are going to shake the fabric of life in Thailand for all but the monks and probably for a few of them as well. And I have not yet seen them.

[Mr Enternational]

Everyone who makes the blanket statement that prostitution is illegal in Thailand is wrong.

If prostitution itself was illegal, the law would just say that, as the law in my home state does.

Except that this is Thailand. How is one supposed to procure a legal prostitute if every avenue to obtain one seems to be illegal?

[Philip Marlow]

From time to time, MIB takes rides in town to check what happens in bar and streets and the proud report is "we didn't find any sign of prostitution".

Why do they announce that if it is not illegal? No LE will make pride of checks about non illegal activities. Driving through red traffic lights is illegal, so police will give stats about the fins on that offence. Not that they checked people driving through green lights.

Why from time to time they arrest ladies and Lb's charging them for. Prostitution?

There are many things linked to prostitution in Thailand that are illegal, including in certain cases, the act itself. As shown in ETs posts on this, pimping in illegal. (Section 9 below) Soliciting prostitution is illegal, IF it is done in "an an open and shameful manner or causes nuisance to the public. " (Section 5).

Advertising it is illegal. Certain acts in prostitution establishments are illegal. And on and on.

Those are things the police are looking for. The arrests are, presumably, for violations of these sections.

This is not what the discussion is about. Many people like to parrot other people, who themselves are wrong. They're not interested in whether or not what they say is actually true. Everyone who makes the blanket statement that prostitution is illegal in Thailand is wrong.

If prostitution itself was illegal, the law would just say that, as the law in my home state does.

The following is the Thai law regarding murder:

TITLE X.

OFFENCE AGAINST LIFE AND BODY.

Details.

Chapter 1: Offence Causing Death.

Section 288. Murder.

Whoever, murdering the other person, shall be imprisoned by death or imprisoned as from fifteen years to twenty years.

That's it. Is the act of murder illegal in the Kingdom? Yes it is. See Title X, Chapter 1, Section 288. Now somewhere in the penal code murder will be defined, but notice there are no qualifiers, nothing about- only if done in a certain manner in a certain place, committed upon a person of a certain age, etc.

Is the act of prostitution illegal in the Kingdom? Show me the statute that declares it is.

[EihTooms]

From time to time, MIB takes rides in town to check what happens in bar and streets and the proud report is "we didn't find any sign of prostitution".

Why do they announce that if it is not illegal? No LE will make pride of checks about non illegal activities. Driving through red traffic lights is illegal, so police will give stats about the fins on that offence. Not that they checked people driving through green lights.

Why from time to time they arrest ladies and Lb's charging them for. Prostitution?

When they say, " We didn't find any sign of prostitution" or "We didn't find any evidence of prostitution" they mean exactly those words. They are indeed looking for "signs" or "evidence" of prostitution. Because there are specific, clear and unambiguous laws against producing public signs and evidence of Sex For Sale publicly, openly and shamefully.

They don't give a damn if every consenting adult man and woman on the soi, employed in a bar or not, has or will within 15 minutes actually engage in an act of sex for money behind closed doors. Because there is literally no law against that.

However, producing "signs" or "evidence" of it being made availble as though it is a legimate commercial enterprise will tarnish the image of the Kingdom or in some way create a public nuisance for nearby businesses and by-passers.

There is literally no law specifically forbidding consenting adults from discretely exchanging sex for money. However, there ARE laws specifically forbidding advertising, flaunting or engaging in it publicly, openly and shamefully.

Where have you read reports of LB and female Freelancers being arrested and charged with the crime of prostitution?

As Mr. Enternational mentioned in a previous post, those sweeps are usually for loitering, creating a public nuisance and so on, not for being prostitutes or for having engaged in prostitution. Again, the specific words and details of these incidents and cases matter.

He also mentioned prostitutes can and sometimes will go the the cops to complain about being ripped off by a customer who got the service and refused to pay, whereupon presumably the cops will go with her back to wherever the customer can be found, probably his hotel room, and get it all worked out. Hardly the thing a cop would do if what she had engaged in was illegal. And I doubt all those cops are on some Freelancer network payroll for just such an occasion.

Full disclosure, I have not personally known any prostitute who has ever done that. But I have heard of it happening from expats in addition to Mr. Enternational.

[BionicMan]

I didn't say anything about enforcement. The question is- Is prostitution illegal in Thailand? Whether a law is enforced or not doesn't change its legality.

From time to time, MIB takes rides in town to check what happens in bar and streets and the proud report is "we didn't find any sign of prostitution".

Why do they announce that if it is not illegal? No LE will make pride of checks about non illegal activities. Driving through red traffic lights is illegal, so police will give stats about the fins on that offence. Not that they checked people driving through green lights.

Why from time to time they arrest ladies and Lb's charging them for. Prostitution?

[BionicMan]

Based on recommendations from the Board I tried to book Mike's Taxi to get me from BKK to Pattaya. I filled out their online booking and added all the details and contact info and heard nothing back. The morning I was leaving MNL I wrote again and begged for a response (I was arriving BKK in the evening). Crickets. Perhaps I booked too late and they were full, but in that business they really need to get back to the customer and let them know that.


They have wiped my ride off their App like it never happened, yet I'm in the car. - he could take me anywhere. I start tracking on Google Maps and we are He took great offense. "Thai honest people. Thai no lie. " Hunh? You just scammed me.

Welcome to Thailand;.

The lesson out of this is you should have cross checked with a Mike taxi about your booking. I use Nam Taxi services, book weeks ahead, get a confirmation straight back and 24 hrs prior the ride they send me a reconfirmarion, name, photo and phone no, of the driver as well as photo of the car with visible number plate. Once in my departure airport I send a WA to the driver with a selfie of myself so they see what shirt I wear on arrival.
PS I hope you reported to Bolt what happened.

Smooth as silk.

[EihTooms]

Well we know it is not legal to offer it online.

https://aseannow.us12.list-manage.co...9&e=56b8e2c51e

The operation was initiated following information that Mr John (not his real name) was using a public website to advertise illicit services. Acting on this intelligence, detectives crafted a plan using an undercover operative.

Was he busted for "engaging in" illicit services, as in Sex in Exchange For Money? The report does not say so. It says he was "advertizing" illicit services. Perhaps not even involving himself. I would even say probably not involving himself.

Nobody here has been arguing that it is legal to "advertize" for Sex For Pay services. Instead, we have all been in agreement that the Thai Penal Code and all Addendums have been quite clear about that kind of thing being illegal.

[Mr Enternational]

I double checked with the driver that he had change for my second 1000 baht note. He took great offense. "Thai honest people. Thai no lie. " Hunh? You just scammed me.

Welcome to Thailand;.

He didn't really scam you. The app said 1046. Tolls are 105, for a total of 1151 You paid 1200. A lot of people contact those services like Mikes Taxi and pay 1500 up to 2000. My girlfriend charges 1800 for that ride because her truck uses diesel instead of the cheaper natural gas other vehicles use.

[Errol Flynn]

Based on recommendations from the Board I tried to book Mike's Taxi to get me from BKK to Pattaya. I filled out their online booking and added all the details and contact info and heard nothing back. The morning I was leaving MNL I wrote again and begged for a response (I was arriving BKK in the evening). Crickets. Perhaps I booked too late and they were full, but in that business they really need to get back to the customer and let them know that.

There was no time to prebook anyone else so I figured I'd take Grab or Bolt. I've used Grab extensively in. The PI (never a problem) but was new to Bolt. I read that it's more popular in Thailand so when I saw a good price I booked it. (1046 baht). On his way to me the "driver" texted me that the tolls are additional, I said "okay, but I only have big bills". (I now believe it was a Manager texting me). Guy arrives and he knows my name and hotel sio my bags go in. The back and I am in. The car when he tells me I need to Cancel the ride in the App and pay cash. I didn't like that, but asked "hoe much?" he said 1400 baht. I showed him. The Bolt page that clearly said 1046 baht. So he called his manager who texted me that it is cash only and I need to cancel the ride. I texted back that that was unacceptable. After some back and forth in Thai the driver says "1200 baht, okay? I say that includes tolls?" he says yes, and realizing I don't want to get my bags out and start this all over I agree. (It's not a terrible price, but it's not the deal I made.). We take off at high speed, hen I get a message from Bolt that "The Driver has cancelled your ride because he couldn't locate you. " That's when I realize that I'm off the grid as far as Bolt is concerned. They have wiped my ride off their App like it never happened, yet I'm in the car. - he could take me anywhere. I start tracking on Google Maps and we are going the right way, but the driver is driving like a maniac and vaping which adds a film noir quality to my first view of nighttime Thailand. Not a pleasant start. Funny thing is when I was paying the guy at my hotel (I waited until I was out of the car in the light with the bellman there) I double checked with the driver that he had change for my second 1000 baht note. He took great offense. "Thai honest people. Thai no lie. " Hunh? You just scammed me.

Welcome to Thailand;.

[Expat American]

Y
You are wrong. Prostitution is clearly illegal as well as profiting from it. My colleagues at Siam legal summarize it very nicely here. If you don't know, don't say. The reason you think it's legal is because it is not enforced in many situations, but the laws are clear. Prostitution is illegal in Pattaya and everywhere in Thailand.

Please read.

Prostitution is illegal in Thailand but obviously a big driver of tourism. I don't see what the average punter does as risky from that perspective. However Farang bar owners and managers are probably putting themselves in significant legal risk or at the very least subject themselves to major shakedowns. Why any farang would do that and risk being put in a Thai jail is beyond me. On top of that some of them even have You Tube channels promoting their illegal businesses which seems to be the height of recklessness. It all works until one day the government changes, the US puts some pressure or other reason and it all crumbles.

[EihTooms]

One would think a summary would quote relevant sections, except if there are no relevant sections to quote. Then, in order to hide the fact that there are none, include as much irrelevant information as possible. Minors, third parties, public places??

And you're doing it again. I can read well, so I'm not overwhelmed by the number of words you included, irrelevant though they are. The only thing you've included that comes close is Section 5. And that has a purposeful out. If those things are done- "in an open and shameful manner or causes nuisance to the public. " Sorry, your dramatic "nail in the coffin" flopped.

You work in the legal profession. (I have no idea why that is relevant.) Why are there qualifiers in that section?

Why include Section 6? Who's asking about about establishments?

Why include Section 7? Advertisements?

Why section 9? Pimping?

It's simple. The question is- Is it illegal in Thailand for me to ask a woman in my condo if she will have sex with me in exchange for money, and consummate the act? I. e. , prostitution. In my state, it is clearly against the law. No ambiguity, no irrelevancy.

Either show me where in Thai law is says that it is, or stop.

Ok, the translation is bad. Please show the Thai version and I will get it translated. Because nothing here comes close to making your point.

I just wanted to mention here that I have also been making these same points and raising the same questions but since my post submissions are held for quite some time for moderation they have not been posted yet even though I submitted them before yours and others' showed up here.

Just my apology in advance for what might seem like an annoying repetition of what you and perhaps others are submitting and getting posted way sooner than my submissions are getting posted. If they get posted at all, that is.

And I suspect now that these holes in the argument are being laid bare by so many and so effectively, "somebody" will request all of it be moved to another forum, where very few here will ever see them. As happened before.

[Mr Enternational]

I didn't say anything about enforcement. The question is- Is prostitution illegal in Thailand? Whether a law is enforced or not doesn't change its legality.

Well we know it is not legal to offer it online.

https://aseannow.us12.list-manage.co...9&e=56b8e2c51e

[Philip Marlow]

Take for example Dubai and Bahrein, two well known "mongering destinations " in the Gulf. Are you telling us that prostitution is not illegal there because there's no enforcement to stop all what is well known? Countries where, in principle, it is not accepted to show "love and affection in public'?

I didn't say anything about enforcement. The question is- Is prostitution illegal in Thailand? Whether a law is enforced or not doesn't change its legality.

[Philip Marlow]

The summary does not show every law. I posted the link to the law for a reason. I guess you were too lazy to look. I work in the legal profession in Thailand so I know and you don't know.

Here are all the laws form the act related to this. Further, this a bad translation. The Thai version is much clearer and leaves no room for doubt that prostitution is illegal in Thailand.

Section 5. Any person who, for the purpose of prostitution, solicits, induces, Introduces herself or himself to, follows or implores a person in a street or a public place, or commits such acts in any other place, in an open and shameful manner or causes nuisance to the public, shall be liable to a fine not exceeding one thousand baht.

You don't know so don't say. Read

This should close the topic now. Prostitution, while illegal in Thailand is tolerated until there is a reason to enforce the laws. End of story.

One would think a summary would quote relevant sections, except if there are no relevant sections to quote. Then, in order to hide the fact that there are none, include as much irrelevant information as possible. Minors, third parties, public places??

And you're doing it again. I can read well, so I'm not overwhelmed by the number of words you included, irrelevant though they are. The only thing you've included that comes close is Section 5. And that has a purposeful out. If those things are done- "in an open and shameful manner or causes nuisance to the public. " Sorry, your dramatic "nail in the coffin" flopped.

You work in the legal profession. (I have no idea why that is relevant.) Why are there qualifiers in that section?

Why include Section 6? Who's asking about about establishments?

Why include Section 7? Advertisements?

Why section 9? Pimping?

It's simple. The question is- Is it illegal in Thailand for me to ask a woman in my condo if she will have sex with me in exchange for money, and consummate the act? I. e. , prostitution. In my state, it is clearly against the law. No ambiguity, no irrelevancy.

Either show me where in Thai law is says that it is, or stop.

Ok, the translation is bad. Please show the Thai version and I will get it translated. Because nothing here comes close to making your point.