FKK Oase - Burgholzhausen

[Member #4585]

Through to the latter part of April, there was an acceleration of Oase girls wearing tops to cover their tits. Somehow bottoms were still in absent or somehow exposed as a peek through, but it was the top coverings that were most noticeable.

Then all of a sudden 2 weeks ago, all the tops covering the breasts worm by girls disappeared. It was a revelation. Yes some girls wear tops but these are now see through or expose the tits in some way.

It is much more enjoyable to see naked tits again at Oase.

[Member #4585]

To the extent there is an acceleration of price upwards in the last year (as compared to price increases that were happening anyway before 6/30/17), one could argue the registration issue had as much impact as the BBBJ ban. The former was a tangible issue for the girls; and they may feel they need to get paid a bit more in return for what they had to "invest" in terms of time, effort, money, other. The latter is just another lever they can pull in the price negotiation.

And anecdotally it makes sense. Reports between June 30 to Dec 31 were more benign than in the last few months.

Reports between June 30,2017 to Dec 31,2017; were arguably more benign due to comments for reporters to edit or amend reports to remove references to no condom activities.

[Member #4581]

To the extent there is an acceleration of price upwards in the last year (as compared to price increases that were happening anyway before 6/30/17), one could argue the registration issue had as much impact as the BBBJ ban. The former was a tangible issue for the girls; and they may feel they need to get paid a bit more in return for what they had to "invest" in terms of time, effort, money, other. The latter is just another lever they can pull in the price negotiation.

And anecdotally it makes sense. Reports between June 30 to Dec 31 were more benign than in the last few months.

[Sirioja]

You are a tourist on holiday, presumably without any social, family or work commitments in Europe, so 12-14 hours in an FKK club is no problem for you. Most casual mongers can't sneak away for such durations. Consider the cost-benefit analysis for a married German man who mongers once a month. Let say he only has a two hour time window to monger on a Friday afternoon.

Option 1: he goes to his favorite escort apartment situated in a discrete building with no neon-lights and no pictures of naked ladies. He's greeted by a receptionist that introduces him to 5-10 WGs. He chooses one for 150 EUR per hour, opts for 50 EUR worth of extras. After the session, receptionist ensures his experience with WG was satisfactory. Total cost: 200 EUR.

Option 2: he goes to Sharks. Parks several blocks away. Walks past SEAT dealership's parking lot, constantly worried that someone he knows will see him. His worst nightmare is to see his father-in-law pulling out of the Hornbach. Pays his 65 EUR entry. Chooses a WG. Pays her 100 EUR per hour. About 50 percent chance he steps on a landmine. Total cost: 165 EUR..

In my opinion, Oase is not high level for girls, meaning really not many pretty girls and nothing exceptional in bed. On my last visit on last Saturday, despite Katrin. Bu, Michele, Maya, Adina, Mady, Adela, Anastasia, Vera who was the prettiest, nothing to compare to Globe sexy girls, so I preferred to save my money = 50 spent on entry, to eat, to take sun, to sleep, to play a bit football, like a real German. At Sharks, also lack of pretty girls among quantity, but better level in bed. Both became clubs for tourists, with many girls running to fuck Asians, but, and not only at Globe, can still find few pretty girls with escort level for services in bed, in Germany, who are happy and want to repeat with 100 for 1 hour, and not only Romanians.

Just depends on your behavior, and behaving only like a tourist, or deserving what you work to find. That's my game in Germany when I have Russian escorts in Paris, and I know top level girls at Globe who behave like if they want I marry them.

[Takedown]

In any case, BB services are still there to be found. Even at Oase and other places of its ilk. It might take a few minutes longer to find.

That's it. That's the point of this whole conversation. BB services are no longer a sure bet. Even if its effect are indirect, only causing the release of some underlying pressure for price increase, the law at the very least served as a catalyst and thus had a noticeable effect.

[Neurosynth]

The point is enforceabilty is a non factor in the empirical decrease of availability. The fact that the law in unenforceable has not prevented BBBJ from being noticeably less of a guarantee. You can't control the hoards of tourist or casual monger to insist on free BBBJ means you cannot prevent resistance to said free BBBJ. Point is, the law had a noticeable effect.

The quantification of this is disputable. Effects can be simultaneously noticeable and trivial. But beyond that, consider the differing impact it's had on clubs like Oase versus the RTC clubs.

It's not that the girls at the higher end Oase-like FKKs are worried about their customers breaking the law. They know the law is unenforcible. And that even if enforced it would be the men, not them, paying the price. The truth of it is that, as usual, they are playing the customers. That's the effect of the new law. They use it as leverage to create de facto price increases by lowering service for short sessions, and creating a harder sell for long sessions.

Meanwhile the RTC clubs happily keep doing business with not only BBBJ available, but total AO as well. It's not that they are fearless law breakers. They *also* know the law is unenforcible. But the raison detre of that market is indeed BB services. They can't use removal of BB services as leverage, and so far the most they've been able to get away with is a 10 euro upcharge or so.

I'm not saying this makes your empirical observation wrong (although there is the quantification problem.) I'm saying the causation is not being described accurately. (1) The impact on RTC's where BB services are of primary concern has been minor, and (2) the greater impact (still small) on higher end clubs isn't about the law per se, but rather the pent up pressure for price increases finally being released.

In any case, BB services are still there to be found. Even at Oase and other places of its ilk. It might take a few minutes longer to find.

[Takedown]

My post about enforceability was only about enforceability. It was not an empirical claim about the current probability of finding BB services.

But if guys were more insistent about BB services, BB services would be more common because girls would need a competitive edge.

And why not be more insistent? *The law is unenforcible*.

The point is enforceabilty is a non factor in the empirical decrease of availability. The fact that the law in unenforceable has not prevented BBBJ from being noticeably less of a guarantee. You can't control the hoards of tourist or casual monger to insist on free BBBJ means you cannot prevent resistance to said free BBBJ. Point is, the law had a noticeable effect.

[McAdonis]

Having visited the secure, relaxing environment of FKK, I personally will never visit a RLD myself. That's me. And if you want to consume 4 to 5 sessions spread over 12 to 14 hours of relaxing atmosphere, with some food, sleep, banter and music, and not freeze from cold or soak in rain and fry in the sun, and do this 4 days in a row, FKK is a pretty darned good concept.

You are a tourist on holiday, presumably without any social, family or work commitments in Europe, so 12-14 hours in an FKK club is no problem for you. Most casual mongers can't sneak away for such durations. Consider the cost-benefit analysis for a married German man who mongers once a month. Let say he only has a two hour time window to monger on a Friday afternoon.

Option 1: he goes to his favorite escort apartment situated in a discrete building with no neon-lights and no pictures of naked ladies. He's greeted by a receptionist that introduces him to 5-10 WGs. He chooses one for 150 EUR per hour, opts for 50 EUR worth of extras. After the session, receptionist ensures his experience with WG was satisfactory. Total cost: 200 EUR.

Option 2: he goes to Sharks. Parks several blocks away. Walks past SEAT dealership's parking lot, constantly worried that someone he knows will see him. His worst nightmare is to see his father-in-law pulling out of the Hornbach. Pays his 65 EUR entry. Chooses a WG. Pays her 100 EUR per hour. About 50 percent chance he steps on a landmine. Total cost: 165 EUR.

Honestly, option one was always his best choice. But he mixed Sharks in 1-2 times a year because he felt it was worth the risk to be able to choose from 100 WGs. But since the services have deteriorated, he is starting to re-think that logic.

But so far when it comes to FKKs, it has not happened, at least to the extent of stabilizing or reducing the price, as far as I can tell. Perhaps I am wrong??

Like you, I am not confident that the trend will reverse. With the previous complainers-well they always complained. I am started to hear complaints from mongers who I perceive as the easy-going type. Guys who used to be huge fans of Sharks believe Sharks is no longer the safehaven it once was. That it joins Palace, Mainhattan, and Oase.

[Neurosynth]

All the logic in the world is no good without real data. Many have reported the increase occurrence of CBJ and resistance to BBBJ but you seem to be sticking to your theories. Your harping on enforcibity may make logical theoretical sense to you but the reality remains, the laws have caused CBJ to go up and BBBJ while still prevalent is no longer a guarantee. It seems that you ignore reports about lower rate of BBBJ at Palace, Mainhattan, Samya, and Oceans.

My post about enforceability was only about enforceability. It was not an empirical claim about the current probability of finding BB services.

But if guys were more insistent about BB services, BB services would be more common because girls would need a competitive edge.

And why not be more insistent? *The law is unenforcible*.

[ExpatLover]

Exactly. All the more so for an FKK like Oase which is far from other places as it is.

Not only can you find it easily in the RLD, it's cheaper.

I'm also wondering whether Oase has worked up a trademark, such as amongst the Italians in particular, that there is a steady flow of outsiders that come there in particular and keep the prices elevated and the expected service for average prices low.

Reading some of the posts below, asking whether you can coax the girls for better by offering 100 e, are pointing this out. If Oase is going to become an overpaying tourist area only, no point.

But it is absolutely not the same thing, if you just want sex, go to the RLD but it will be mostly very mechanical 0 emotions but it is fine for some guys but not for me. Usually in a good FKK there will be much more erotic.

[Member #4581]

..... At some point, customers will seek alternatives. Whether it be another FKK club or RLD or escorts. If it gets to the point where FKK sessions only offers a marginal value advantage over the alternatives, then why would anyone pay a 40-75 EUR entry to walk into a FKK club? If it deteriorated to the point where 50 EUR got you 15 minutes and only CBJ, that could easily be found in RLD.

Just to be clear, I am only describing what had already happened and still happening, based on my few first hand samples and more broader reading here. It *does not imply in any way* that I am endorsing or supporting these price increases. You did not do it, but sometimes people have a habit of shooting the messenger when they don't like the msg.

Now, why would people stick with an obviously bad choice? Depends on who. You and I might perceive a 50 E /15 M CBJ+CFS is a sucky barter, but others might perceive higher utility in it. Heck, 6 years ago, I myself would have, when I was paying upto $400 for a few bump and grind lap dances in strip clubs.

And practically too, there are other reasons. Not all men want to go up and down stairs, for a girl they can't see and service they don't know, in a seedy neighborhood, perhaps in the dark, or perhaps with passers on giving dirty looks and passing judgement. Having visited the secure, relaxing environment of FKK, I personally will never visit a RLD myself. That's me. And if you want to consume 4 to 5 sessions spread over 12 to 14 hours of relaxing atmosphere, with some food, sleep, banter and music, and not freeze from cold or soak in rain and fry in the sun, and do this 4 days in a row, FKK is a pretty darned good concept.

I am not denying substitution effect is real. It is, in many situations.

But so far when it comes to FKKs, it has not happened, at least to the extent of stabilizing or reducing the price, as far as I can tell. Perhaps I am wrong??

[Lanthano]

If it gets to the point where FKK sessions only offers a marginal value advantage over the alternatives, then why would anyone pay a 40-75 EUR entry to walk into a FKK club? If it deteriorated to the point where 50 EUR got you 15 minutes and only CBJ, that could easily be found in RLD.

Exactly. All the more so for an FKK like Oase which is far from other places as it is.

Not only can you find it easily in the RLD, it's cheaper.

I'm also wondering whether Oase has worked up a trademark, such as amongst the Italians in particular, that there is a steady flow of outsiders that come there in particular and keep the prices elevated and the expected service for average prices low.

Reading some of the posts below, asking whether you can coax the girls for better by offering 100 e, are pointing this out. If Oase is going to become an overpaying tourist area only, no point.

[Danny227]

I have no idea why he paid 200/ h instead of 160 for the basic or 280 for full service. But it can't be any difference in tax, the girls are getting 140/30 min for full service which includes a 10 SFR tax component. At least that's what girls told me, that the 10 SFR are some kind of tax. Might be a rent for the room as well. But it's nothing that could get your price down from 280 to 200 per hour.

I don't see the relation of you tax considerations to this discussion. You might want to check that all your neurons are firing. I don't really think you deserve a response, but I will entertain this for the sake of other readers. I paid 200 because I asked and then she said, yes. It is simple. Some girls can say no, but some say yes. I love the use of third person singular to refer to people, it is so cool. You must be super cultured my friend. Probably why they will tell you yes as well, you should try it. My cultured friend.

[McAdonis]

Anyway, in my view, price does not determine supply / demand, it is the other way around which is supply / demand decides the price. And for years, the true price has been creeping up (as seen through inferior service).

Progressively worse. Creeping up. At some point, customers will seek alternatives. Whether it be another FKK club or RLD or escorts. If it gets to the point where FKK sessions only offers a marginal value advantage over the alternatives, then why would anyone pay a 40-75 EUR entry to walk into a FKK club? If it deteriorated to the point where 50 EUR got you 15 minutes and only CBJ, that could easily be found in RLD.

It's like if I had to travel from Frankfurt to Berlin. I'd look at the not only Lufthansa but also viable substitutes. Be it another airline like easyJet or another mode of transportation like train, bus, rental car, ride-share. Price would be a factor in that decision. If all the traveling options increase I may cut back or postpone.

[Member #4581]

So you are claiming tourists have made too much of a market impact, and in order for prices to normalise, the tourists needs to hold onto their wallets more, or stay away?

Perhaps the bitching on the forum is a good indicator of posters realising this long ago by trying to keep the tourists away as long as possible too.

I assume this was addressed to me? Anyway, I said nothing of the kind. Simply put, prices have moved up and moving up for a while. The stated price is 50 but people on average have been getting less and less in return, so the implied true price has been moving up. For a while.

And that is on average. If one or a few regular punters obtain service as they always have, hardly makes a differnce. When you aggregate it over thousands of mongers over millions of sessions, implied price has been constantly expanding.

No, there was no collective strategy on the part of some mongers to bi$t#ch as a preemptive strategy (and if it was, they obviously failed because neither did the tourists stop coming, nor did the prices stablize). The bit$&ching was about services already obtained "I paid the same and got less in return, or I got the same service and paid up a bit more". And this sort of reports came from across the spectrum, tourists, locals, newbies and experienced.

You can speculate that in future demand will fall due to pricing increases, and that in turn will drive down pricing, or whatever else you want to forecast. My point is that, (a) those things did not happen so far (b) there is no indication that pricing will suddenly inflect down, quite the contrary in fact.