FKK Oase - Burgholzhausen

[Neurosynth]

The point is enforceabilty is a non factor in the empirical decrease of availability. The fact that the law in unenforceable has not prevented BBBJ from being noticeably less of a guarantee. You can't control the hoards of tourist or casual monger to insist on free BBBJ means you cannot prevent resistance to said free BBBJ. Point is, the law had a noticeable effect.

The quantification of this is disputable. Effects can be simultaneously noticeable and trivial. But beyond that, consider the differing impact it's had on clubs like Oase versus the RTC clubs.

It's not that the girls at the higher end Oase-like FKKs are worried about their customers breaking the law. They know the law is unenforcible. And that even if enforced it would be the men, not them, paying the price. The truth of it is that, as usual, they are playing the customers. That's the effect of the new law. They use it as leverage to create de facto price increases by lowering service for short sessions, and creating a harder sell for long sessions.

Meanwhile the RTC clubs happily keep doing business with not only BBBJ available, but total AO as well. It's not that they are fearless law breakers. They *also* know the law is unenforcible. But the raison detre of that market is indeed BB services. They can't use removal of BB services as leverage, and so far the most they've been able to get away with is a 10 euro upcharge or so.

I'm not saying this makes your empirical observation wrong (although there is the quantification problem.) I'm saying the causation is not being described accurately. (1) The impact on RTC's where BB services are of primary concern has been minor, and (2) the greater impact (still small) on higher end clubs isn't about the law per se, but rather the pent up pressure for price increases finally being released.

In any case, BB services are still there to be found. Even at Oase and other places of its ilk. It might take a few minutes longer to find.

[Takedown]

My post about enforceability was only about enforceability. It was not an empirical claim about the current probability of finding BB services.

But if guys were more insistent about BB services, BB services would be more common because girls would need a competitive edge.

And why not be more insistent? *The law is unenforcible*.

The point is enforceabilty is a non factor in the empirical decrease of availability. The fact that the law in unenforceable has not prevented BBBJ from being noticeably less of a guarantee. You can't control the hoards of tourist or casual monger to insist on free BBBJ means you cannot prevent resistance to said free BBBJ. Point is, the law had a noticeable effect.

[McAdonis]

Having visited the secure, relaxing environment of FKK, I personally will never visit a RLD myself. That's me. And if you want to consume 4 to 5 sessions spread over 12 to 14 hours of relaxing atmosphere, with some food, sleep, banter and music, and not freeze from cold or soak in rain and fry in the sun, and do this 4 days in a row, FKK is a pretty darned good concept.

You are a tourist on holiday, presumably without any social, family or work commitments in Europe, so 12-14 hours in an FKK club is no problem for you. Most casual mongers can't sneak away for such durations. Consider the cost-benefit analysis for a married German man who mongers once a month. Let say he only has a two hour time window to monger on a Friday afternoon.

Option 1: he goes to his favorite escort apartment situated in a discrete building with no neon-lights and no pictures of naked ladies. He's greeted by a receptionist that introduces him to 5-10 WGs. He chooses one for 150 EUR per hour, opts for 50 EUR worth of extras. After the session, receptionist ensures his experience with WG was satisfactory. Total cost: 200 EUR.

Option 2: he goes to Sharks. Parks several blocks away. Walks past SEAT dealership's parking lot, constantly worried that someone he knows will see him. His worst nightmare is to see his father-in-law pulling out of the Hornbach. Pays his 65 EUR entry. Chooses a WG. Pays her 100 EUR per hour. About 50 percent chance he steps on a landmine. Total cost: 165 EUR.

Honestly, option one was always his best choice. But he mixed Sharks in 1-2 times a year because he felt it was worth the risk to be able to choose from 100 WGs. But since the services have deteriorated, he is starting to re-think that logic.

But so far when it comes to FKKs, it has not happened, at least to the extent of stabilizing or reducing the price, as far as I can tell. Perhaps I am wrong??

Like you, I am not confident that the trend will reverse. With the previous complainers-well they always complained. I am started to hear complaints from mongers who I perceive as the easy-going type. Guys who used to be huge fans of Sharks believe Sharks is no longer the safehaven it once was. That it joins Palace, Mainhattan, and Oase.

[Neurosynth]

All the logic in the world is no good without real data. Many have reported the increase occurrence of CBJ and resistance to BBBJ but you seem to be sticking to your theories. Your harping on enforcibity may make logical theoretical sense to you but the reality remains, the laws have caused CBJ to go up and BBBJ while still prevalent is no longer a guarantee. It seems that you ignore reports about lower rate of BBBJ at Palace, Mainhattan, Samya, and Oceans.

My post about enforceability was only about enforceability. It was not an empirical claim about the current probability of finding BB services.

But if guys were more insistent about BB services, BB services would be more common because girls would need a competitive edge.

And why not be more insistent? *The law is unenforcible*.

[ExpatLover]

Exactly. All the more so for an FKK like Oase which is far from other places as it is.

Not only can you find it easily in the RLD, it's cheaper.

I'm also wondering whether Oase has worked up a trademark, such as amongst the Italians in particular, that there is a steady flow of outsiders that come there in particular and keep the prices elevated and the expected service for average prices low.

Reading some of the posts below, asking whether you can coax the girls for better by offering 100 e, are pointing this out. If Oase is going to become an overpaying tourist area only, no point.

But it is absolutely not the same thing, if you just want sex, go to the RLD but it will be mostly very mechanical 0 emotions but it is fine for some guys but not for me. Usually in a good FKK there will be much more erotic.

[Member #4581]

..... At some point, customers will seek alternatives. Whether it be another FKK club or RLD or escorts. If it gets to the point where FKK sessions only offers a marginal value advantage over the alternatives, then why would anyone pay a 40-75 EUR entry to walk into a FKK club? If it deteriorated to the point where 50 EUR got you 15 minutes and only CBJ, that could easily be found in RLD.

Just to be clear, I am only describing what had already happened and still happening, based on my few first hand samples and more broader reading here. It *does not imply in any way* that I am endorsing or supporting these price increases. You did not do it, but sometimes people have a habit of shooting the messenger when they don't like the msg.

Now, why would people stick with an obviously bad choice? Depends on who. You and I might perceive a 50 E /15 M CBJ+CFS is a sucky barter, but others might perceive higher utility in it. Heck, 6 years ago, I myself would have, when I was paying upto $400 for a few bump and grind lap dances in strip clubs.

And practically too, there are other reasons. Not all men want to go up and down stairs, for a girl they can't see and service they don't know, in a seedy neighborhood, perhaps in the dark, or perhaps with passers on giving dirty looks and passing judgement. Having visited the secure, relaxing environment of FKK, I personally will never visit a RLD myself. That's me. And if you want to consume 4 to 5 sessions spread over 12 to 14 hours of relaxing atmosphere, with some food, sleep, banter and music, and not freeze from cold or soak in rain and fry in the sun, and do this 4 days in a row, FKK is a pretty darned good concept.

I am not denying substitution effect is real. It is, in many situations.

But so far when it comes to FKKs, it has not happened, at least to the extent of stabilizing or reducing the price, as far as I can tell. Perhaps I am wrong??

[Lanthano]

If it gets to the point where FKK sessions only offers a marginal value advantage over the alternatives, then why would anyone pay a 40-75 EUR entry to walk into a FKK club? If it deteriorated to the point where 50 EUR got you 15 minutes and only CBJ, that could easily be found in RLD.

Exactly. All the more so for an FKK like Oase which is far from other places as it is.

Not only can you find it easily in the RLD, it's cheaper.

I'm also wondering whether Oase has worked up a trademark, such as amongst the Italians in particular, that there is a steady flow of outsiders that come there in particular and keep the prices elevated and the expected service for average prices low.

Reading some of the posts below, asking whether you can coax the girls for better by offering 100 e, are pointing this out. If Oase is going to become an overpaying tourist area only, no point.

[Danny227]

I have no idea why he paid 200/ h instead of 160 for the basic or 280 for full service. But it can't be any difference in tax, the girls are getting 140/30 min for full service which includes a 10 SFR tax component. At least that's what girls told me, that the 10 SFR are some kind of tax. Might be a rent for the room as well. But it's nothing that could get your price down from 280 to 200 per hour.

I don't see the relation of you tax considerations to this discussion. You might want to check that all your neurons are firing. I don't really think you deserve a response, but I will entertain this for the sake of other readers. I paid 200 because I asked and then she said, yes. It is simple. Some girls can say no, but some say yes. I love the use of third person singular to refer to people, it is so cool. You must be super cultured my friend. Probably why they will tell you yes as well, you should try it. My cultured friend.

[McAdonis]

Anyway, in my view, price does not determine supply / demand, it is the other way around which is supply / demand decides the price. And for years, the true price has been creeping up (as seen through inferior service).

Progressively worse. Creeping up. At some point, customers will seek alternatives. Whether it be another FKK club or RLD or escorts. If it gets to the point where FKK sessions only offers a marginal value advantage over the alternatives, then why would anyone pay a 40-75 EUR entry to walk into a FKK club? If it deteriorated to the point where 50 EUR got you 15 minutes and only CBJ, that could easily be found in RLD.

It's like if I had to travel from Frankfurt to Berlin. I'd look at the not only Lufthansa but also viable substitutes. Be it another airline like easyJet or another mode of transportation like train, bus, rental car, ride-share. Price would be a factor in that decision. If all the traveling options increase I may cut back or postpone.

[Member #4581]

So you are claiming tourists have made too much of a market impact, and in order for prices to normalise, the tourists needs to hold onto their wallets more, or stay away?

Perhaps the bitching on the forum is a good indicator of posters realising this long ago by trying to keep the tourists away as long as possible too.

I assume this was addressed to me? Anyway, I said nothing of the kind. Simply put, prices have moved up and moving up for a while. The stated price is 50 but people on average have been getting less and less in return, so the implied true price has been moving up. For a while.

And that is on average. If one or a few regular punters obtain service as they always have, hardly makes a differnce. When you aggregate it over thousands of mongers over millions of sessions, implied price has been constantly expanding.

No, there was no collective strategy on the part of some mongers to bi$t#ch as a preemptive strategy (and if it was, they obviously failed because neither did the tourists stop coming, nor did the prices stablize). The bit$&ching was about services already obtained "I paid the same and got less in return, or I got the same service and paid up a bit more". And this sort of reports came from across the spectrum, tourists, locals, newbies and experienced.

You can speculate that in future demand will fall due to pricing increases, and that in turn will drive down pricing, or whatever else you want to forecast. My point is that, (a) those things did not happen so far (b) there is no indication that pricing will suddenly inflect down, quite the contrary in fact.

[Turgid]

......Next I had Mya put on the condom and she rode me on top while I squeezed her firm Tits and pinched her nipples. I then told her I wanted to do some edge of the bed doggy. She tried getting into position on the bed but there was a large wooden trim on the end of the bed and she couldn't get back far enough for me to enter her. Mya then got up and stood at the edge of the bed in front of me. She then lifted one one leg up putting one foot up on the wooden trim and at the same time reaching back to guide me into her. I held onto her hips and went at her slow and deep. It was then I noticed the mirror on the wall next to us. It allowed me a great view of my dick going in & out of her pussy while Mya was also rubbing her clit. I almost lost it there but I wanted to be on top of her when I finished so I had her move on the bed and climbed on top. I took slow and deep plunges to savor her warm tight pussy as long as I could but it was soon over. As I filled the condom Mya began to squeeze her pussy as if to Milk me dry, which she did. What a great finish. This was one of my top 3 sessions for this trip.

Well done. I am accutely aware of the wooden trim of which you speak. It has spoilt many a sexual quest. I do hope I can find an enterprising provider to try that position with when I visit in 2 weeks time.

[Pistons]

So you are claiming tourists have made too much of a market impact, and in order for prices to normalise, the tourists needs to hold onto their wallets more, or stay away?

Perhaps the bitching on the forum is a good indicator of posters realising this long ago by trying to keep the tourists away as long as possible too.

[Member #4581]

However, if you read the reports here, service has been getting progressively worse for years. Not a new thing. And if you equate worse service = less of a product = implied price increase, essentially people have been getting less for the same price for a while now.

If we argue that demand from casual mongers, or locals or whichever group declines due to higher prices thus bringing supply / demand back into balance and hence the service up to the par, well that did not seem to happen. Either the demand did not fall enough, or new demand (Asians or some others) made up for the lost demand, or something else happened (supply became inelastic, and girls not willing to sell that service at that price even if there were fewer men buying at their asking price) -- whatever it may be; but the end result is that members have been consistently bitching here on ISG that service has been getting worse for 5 or 6 years now since I have been reading.

Anyway, in my view, price does not determine supply / demand, it is the other way around which is supply / demand decides the price. And for years, the true price has been creeping up (as seen through inferior service).

[McAdonis]

But that just means the latter group (core customers, the casual mongers and more "normal men") are priced out of the market. What is abnormal about it? In their place, the former group you listed (Fly-in sex tourists, hardcore local mongers, and travelling businessmen) would become the new core.

Agree with Takedown and Pistons.

Market is always evolving. No one is entitled to anything. If Ukraine is admitted or Polish and Slovakian economies collapse, many new clubs get built, or this or that happens and the clubs are flooded with a million new girls, and everything including BBBJ, dfk, bls, rim job and other stuff gets thrown in for 50 E, none of us would cry about the plight of poor Romanian girls in the clubs at the moment. Those girls in fact would adjust to the new reality and lower their pricing and up their services (or else, will quit the profession).

I'd offer another way the market might correct itself at these touristic Hessen clubs, although I could be naive and overly optimistic here. Less men attend, meaning clubs collect less entry fees. At that point maybe club operators will take action by (1) screening WGs better and (2) offer pricing discounts and promotions to win back mongers.

Pricing has already shifted up. Reports here say that everyday. Officially price might still be 50E but it buys you less and less. If you previously paid 50E for x, and now you pay 50E for 0. 8x, price has already appreciated whether we acknowledge it or not.

Maybe 0. 8 x is not everybody's reality yet. The local hardcore mongers haven't fully boycotted the tourist Hessen clubs yet. They just complain and are more selective which WGs they session with, but the problem is that they still pay entry and attend regularly. Unlike foreign mongers, they have the language skills and time explore smaller clubs, RLD, and private apartments. If conditions continue to deteriorate to the point where every WG offers 0. 8 x to these hardcore mongers, they might switch to alternatives. And the casual mongers who attend once every six months, they have probably only attended once or twice since the laws were enacted. This group would not be the type to read sex forums, so the new pricing standard or CBJ law perhaps has not circulated amongst all of them yet.

As Takedown suggested the WGs at ACA tried to shift prices up. Attendance dwindled and the market corrected itself. With the tourist Hessen clubs, I'd be less confident. When Oase lost market share to Sharks, I don't think the Oase WGs lowered their pricing or upped their services. They got accustomed to a certain rate, and were too proud to take less. ACA WGs were actually trying to get a pay increase.

[Tp273]

On the last day with my friends in Germany we went to FKK Oase. We paid the 65 E door fee, showered & then went to get something to eat. Just as we were eating a girl came over to me and bent down kissing both my cheeks. I looked up to see it was Alice who I had a real nice time with on visits over the years. We talked a little and she left. A short time later we ran into Alice again. This time I decided it was payback for one of my friends named Wazz who had played some jokes on me in the past with the girls. As we were talking to Alice I told her Wazz wanted to know if her Breasts were natural or not. Alice laughed and Wazz got a little red faced. Alice then said the only way he was going to find out was 1st hand in the room. At this point Wazz had no option but to take Alice up on her challenge to save face. Pretty much the exact same thing he did to me with Alice 2 years before. They headed off to a room together. Wazz said Alice was OK but nothing great. That surprised me because she was really into it the times I saw her and I had a great time. Wazz said he paid her 100 E without asking the fee. She only wanted 50 E last fall but I gave her 30 E tip because of her great service.

Skip did yet another duo on this trip telling me later that the girls tried to upsell him in the room. He wanted kissing, BBBJ, DATY, sex with condom & CIM. The girls told him it would be 400 E. Skip complained that he could only do CIM with one girl. He said he stuck to his guns and the girls finally agreed to 300 E for the duo. He couldn't remember their names but was happy with their service. Later he saw a slightly heavier glasses girl and got the same services as the duo but the girl also said it was the hour and let him do a 2nd finish. She only wanted 150 E total. Skip got the bargain of the day for that one.

While Skip was gone Wazz and I were outside relaxing when Mya approached him and he went off with her to one of the corner shelters outside. Wazz said she was a nice time for 150 E. Later Wazz saw someone else outside but didn't remember her name.

Later in the evening Mya approached me and we sat in the Cinema area and talked. She also quoted 150 E for 1/2 HR to me but I told that I was only willing to pay 100 E. She kept rubbing her leg against my dick telling me how nice it would be for 150 E. I held out figuring there was always Alice for 100 E. Finally Mya said OK and we went to the room. In the room she kissed me sensually as she fondled my dick. Mya then said it would be so much better if I went for the hour for 150 E. I looked at her and said " I will only pay 100 E. Take it or leave it! ". She said 100 E would be OK. At this point I was seriously thinking of calling the whole off because I figured she might not want to give me her best service for 100 E. Much to her credit I was wrong. We began more slow sensual kissing and then I explored her body with my hands and lips. Mya then moved down to do a BBBJ as I rubbed her pussy. Enjoyed that for a while then I pulled her over for some 69. Soon Mya put her hands to the side and only used her mouth as her head bobbed up & down on my Dick. At the same time she began slowly moving her pussy up & down my tongue. I then reached up grabbing handfuls of her firm ass and buried my face in her warm & now juicy pussy.

Next I had Mya put on the condom and she rode me on top while I squeezed her firm Tits and pinched her nipples. I then told her I wanted to do some edge of the bed doggy. She tried getting into position on the bed but there was a large wooden trim on the end of the bed and she couldn't get back far enough for me to enter her. Mya then got up and stood at the edge of the bed in front of me. She then lifted one one leg up putting one foot up on the wooden trim and at the same time reaching back to guide me into her. I held onto her hips and went at her slow and deep. It was then I noticed the mirror on the wall next to us. It allowed me a great view of my dick going in & out of her pussy while Mya was also rubbing her clit. I almost lost it there but I wanted to be on top of her when I finished so I had her move on the bed and climbed on top. I took slow and deep plunges to savor her warm tight pussy as long as I could but it was soon over. As I filled the condom Mya began to squeeze her pussy as if to Milk me dry, which she did. What a great finish. This was one of my top 3 sessions for this trip.